how does the +30 bluff work?

[CyberThread]

How does the 30 to bluff from a bard spell work as far as interaction. Does it make somEone a more skilled sPeaker or rather a minor charm/suggestion spell?

[Flickerdart]

It's a self-targeted spell - it improves the bard's bluff, but doesn't directly affect other people at all.

[Psyren]

Like this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) :smalltongue:

The main guideline is here: "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell."


*note that the Giant may have stretched the spell a bit for comedic effect.

[Brookshw]

Kind of like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) and no, its not a charm, suggestion or other magical effect, just good ol' BS.

Edit: Ninja Rock Wallabied!

[Know(Nothing)]

Actually, it CAN be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff) used at a suggestion spell.

[Deophaun]

Actually, it CAN be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff) used at a suggestion spell.
No, it can't:

You gain a +30 bonus on Bluff checks made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn’t apply to other uses of the Bluff skill, such as feinting in combat, creating a diversion to hide, or communicating a hidden message via innuendo.)

[Know(Nothing)]

It's not a separate use of Bluff, it's expanded. It just occurs when you beat the Sense Motive of your target by 50 or more. You're still using the basic function of Bluff, which is convincing someone the truth of your words.

[Deophaun]

It's not a separate use of Bluff, it's expanded. It just occurs when you beat the Sense Motive of your target by 50 or more. You're still using the basic function of Bluff, which is convincing someone the truth of your words.
Not quite:

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe.
A or B. Glibness helps with with B, it doesn't help you with A, which is what the suggestion is.

[Slipperychicken]

Does it make somEone a more skilled sPeaker or rather a minor charm/suggestion spell?

There's no saving throw, it targets the caster, it's a transmutation, and it isn't [mind-affecting], so it's definitely the former.

[Know(Nothing)]

The Epic usage of Bluff doesn't make any such differentiation. If you beat the Sense Motive by 50 you can implant a suggestion. It doesn't say "if you're trying to get a target to act as you wish you implant a suggestion, but not if you're just trying to make it believe something you want it to believe."

Either way, both are listed under the primary use of Bluff, and are therefore improved by Glibness. If one could and one couldn't it would have a different section under Bluff as Feint, Create a Diversion to Hide, and Deliver a Secret Message do.

[Deophaun]

The Epic usage of Bluff doesn't make any such differentiation.
But glibness does.

And you're doing it wrong, btw. It's not "Oh, I managed to beat his DC check by 50, so I get to add in a suggestion." It's "I'm trying to implant a suggestion, so the DC went up by 50." If you then fail to implant the suggestion, the entire bluff fails, even if you missed it by 1.

[TheMonocleRogue]

This spell basically gives your bluffs to lie a bonus of "yes," much like the jump spell allows you to bound great distances by giving your jump check a bonus of "yes"

Its an amazing tool for RP heavy campaigns and for evil campaigns which involve lots of lawful characters. Just remember that detection spells such as zone of truth directly counter glibness since you can't lie without the PC's knowing about it.

[NEO|Phyte]

It's not a separate use of Bluff, it's expanded. It just occurs when you beat the Sense Motive of your target by 50 or more. You're still using the basic function of Bluff, which is convincing someone the truth of your words.
Glibness specifically works 'to convince another of the truth of your words'

At best, the instill a suggestion epic usage of bluff would be expanding on the 'A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less)' usage, which is differentiated from the 'believes something that you want it to believe' usage by a very notable or.

Now explain to me, using small words if you'd like, how implanting a suggestion is at all related to convincing someone that what you're saying is true.

[Socratov]

in answer to the op's question,

It makes you more believable. It actually helps you sound more believable, confident and most importantly, slick. You cast glibness you will be the slickest confidence trickster out there for one lie. People will want to believe you and drink your words, hanging onto your lips. Glibness will make you the most interesting thing that ever happened. Even more interesting then the birth of their child.

[Studoku]

Its an amazing tool for RP heavy campaigns and for evil campaigns which involve lots of lawful characters. Just remember that detection spells such as zone of truth directly counter glibness since you can't lie without the PC's knowing about it.
If you actually have to lie, you're not trying hard enough. Half-truths are so much fun.

[Brookshw]

Actually, it CAN be (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#bluff) used at a suggestion spell.

Partially, like the spell, yes, still nonmagical. At the spell itself? Nope :smalltongue:


The character can implant a nonmagical suggestion in a target, display a false alignment, or disguise his or her surface thoughts

[Slipperychicken]

If you actually have to lie, you're not trying hard enough. Half-truths are so much fun.

I still think deceptions and half-truths trigger Bluff checks.

[Know(Nothing)]

Sorry, phrased that wrong.

But if Glibness improves the "believes what you want it to believe" part, and then you use that part to instill a suggestion, then the suggestion works if you beat the higher Sense Motive. There is nothing that says the suggestion is tied to the part of Bluff that Glibness doesn't apply to.


Now explain to me, using small words if you'd like, how implanting a suggestion is at all related to convincing someone that what you're saying is true.

They do not need to be related. The epic usage does not say that it only happens with one aspect or the other, it just tells you the check you need to beat. If you beat the check with Glibness, you qualify for the epic usage.

It's included in the main use of Bluff. Glibness improves an aspect of that main use and qualifies it for epic usage. The epic usage does not rule-out the aspect that Glibness applies to. If you need smaller words to get that, then I'm afraid I can't help you.

[Deophaun]

I still think deceptions and half-truths trigger Bluff checks.
Maybe, maybe not. But you're unlikely to do anything quickly with half-truths, which means you're going to run into the 1 minute DC 20 Sense Motive check for a hunch.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe, maybe not. But you're unlikely to do anything quickly with half-truths, which means you're going to run into the 1 minute DC 20 Sense Motive check for a hunch.

Thing is, you can totally sniff out lies-by-omission through intuitive judgement (I've done it plenty of times), or at least tell that the guy isn't being completely honest with you. That's what Sense Motive represents.

[Deophaun]

But if Glibness improves the "believes what you want it to believe" part, and then you use that part to instill a suggestion, then the suggestion works if you beat the higher Sense Motive. There is nothing that says the suggestion is tied to the part of Bluff that Glibness doesn't apply to.
The problem is that isn't what you're actually doing. When you use a skill, you're using it to accomplish one thing, even if the skill itself can have multiple applications. You want to convince the guards that you are part of the town watch and they are urgently needed in the nearby tavern? That's two bluff checks. What you're trying to do is use a single bluff check for two things: convince someone of your truthfulness and implant a suggestion, and trying to use the former to carry glibness to the latter. That's just not kosher.

Now, if your suggestion is "You will believe me when I say I'm a member of the watch," then sure, glibness will work for that (and it's not as pointless as you may think, because that will get you around the hunch check mentioned above). But glibness won't work for a suggestion saying "you will leave your post and check out the tavern."


Thing is, you can totally sniff out lies-by-omission through intuitive judgement (I've done it plenty of times), or at least tell that the guy isn't being completely honest with you. That's what Sense Motive the DC 20 hunch check represents.
FIFY!

[Studoku]

I still think deceptions and half-truths trigger Bluff checks.
So do I.

What they don't do is set of the Zone of Truth. If anything it makes you even more believable.

[Know(Nothing)]

I absolutely see your point, I just interpret epic usage stuff as folding in a wider array of things, I guess. Like, in your example, you could use Glibness to convince him that there's trouble at the tavern, and you're so convincing the result is like the suggestion spell and he reacts the way you wanted. It's a weird overlap.

[Ansem]

Le Me: This is not green its yellow!
Le Other: No its not...
*buffs*
Le Me: I AM YOUR FATHER!
Le Other: daddy!!!!!

[Deophaun]

I absolutely see your point, I just interpret epic usage stuff as folding in a wider array of things, I guess. Like, in your example, you could use Glibness to convince him that there's trouble at the tavern, and you're so convincing the result is like the suggestion spell and he reacts the way you wanted. It's a weird overlap.
On a deeper issue, while you might be very convincing and your target may truly believe your lie that the king was replaced by an evil shapeshifting dragon, the problem is that there are hundreds of ways someone could react to that information. Maybe he immediately marches off to slay the usurper, maybe he calls in the court wizard to deal with the matter, maybe he deserts his post, maybe he despairs because his oath requires him to serve no matter who's on the throne, maybe he secretly worships dragons and so is thrilled to now be serving a living god, or maybe he just doesn't care, as long as he still can afford the tavern wenches.

There is a reason that the duration for a "belief" is undefined in the bluff description, while getting someone to react as you want is "usually 1 round or less," because the former is unpredictable. And that's what makes the suggestion ability distinct. A good, non-epic bluff could easily get a person to act according to the parameters of a suggestion spell, but only for a round. The epic usage doesn't change what you can get someone to do, but it does bump the duration up 10 minutes.

[Chronos]

Actually, the Giant really wasn't stretching in that comic: That really is a plausible use of the skill. The book gives as an example of a Bluff with a -30 for unbelievability "I'm actually a polymorphed lammasu, and you can believe me, because lammasus never lie". Now picture someone who's so insanely good at lying that they can pull off that lie consistently. And now picture a lie so outrageous that even that guy could only pull it off on his best day. That's the kind of lie that Haley, using that potion, could pull off effortlessly.

Remember, this is a fantasy world, with powerful magic. It really is possible (if unlikely) that some random guard might actually be a polymorphed kangaroo, and that his memories were modified so that he doesn't realize it.

[Totema]

It does everything the Bluff skill lets you do. And it makes you very, very good at it.

My favorite gag is convincing an NPC that you are the moon.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, the Giant really wasn't stretching in that comic: That really is a plausible use of the skill. The book gives as an example of a Bluff with a -30 for unbelievability "I'm actually a polymorphed lammasu, and you can believe me, because lammasus never lie". Now picture someone who's so insanely good at lying that they can pull off that lie consistently. And now picture a lie so outrageous that even that guy could only pull it off on his best day. That's the kind of lie that Haley, using that potion, could pull off effortlessly.

Remember, this is a fantasy world, with powerful magic. It really is possible (if unlikely) that some random guard might actually be a polymorphed kangaroo, and that his memories were modified so that he doesn't realize it.
He was stretching it a bit with multiple uses, though, unless she was taking more swigs between panels.

[Eldaran]

He was stretching it a bit with multiple uses, though, unless she was taking more swigs between panels.

It lasts 10 minutes per level, it's not consumed on use, so why wouldn't you get multiple uses?

[Psyren]

Actually, the Giant really wasn't stretching in that comic: That really is a plausible use of the skill. The book gives as an example of a Bluff with a -30 for unbelievability "I'm actually a polymorphed lammasu, and you can believe me, because lammasus never lie". Now picture someone who's so insanely good at lying that they can pull off that lie consistently. And now picture a lie so outrageous that even that guy could only pull it off on his best day. That's the kind of lie that Haley, using that potion, could pull off effortlessly.

Remember, this is a fantasy world, with powerful magic. It really is possible (if unlikely) that some random guard might actually be a polymorphed kangaroo, and that his memories were modified so that he doesn't realize it.

Thing is, believing you're sincere about them being a wallaby doesn't necessarily mean they think it too. Rather, it means that they believe that you believe it, which would provoke a much different reaction.

"You don't see or hear us" is a lot harder to swallow as well, because it contradicts itself. You'd have to hear the lie in order to believe the lie that you're not hearing the lie which prevents you from hearing the lie which...

[Chronos]

Thing is, believing you're sincere about them being a wallaby doesn't necessarily mean they think it too. Rather, it means that they believe that you believe it, which would provoke a much different reaction.
But the Bluff skill doesn't convince people of the sincerity of your words; it convinces them of their truth.

Honestly, attitudes like this are a large part of the reason for spellcasters' superiority over nonspellcasters. High-level D&D characters of any class can do ludicrous things, by the rules. When it's done by a spell, people shrug their shoulders and say "Hey, it's magic.". But when it's done by a skill check, or through martial prowess, people say "Wait, that doesn't make sense", and reinterpret it in a much weaker way. Give both sides the same sort of interpretation, though, and... Well, OK, it doesn't erase the casters' advantage, but it shrinks it considerably.

[The Grue]

The Epic usage of Bluff doesn't make any such differentiation. If you beat the Sense Motive by 50 you can implant a suggestion. It doesn't say "if you're trying to get a target to act as you wish you implant a suggestion, but not if you're just trying to make it believe something you want it to believe."

Task DCs don't work like that. The DC is set by the task you're trying to accomplish; the task doesn't change based on how well you roll. Unless you're trying to suggest that if I beat my UMD check to activate a wand by 5 or more, I also activate a CL5 scroll I happen to be holding in the other hand.