Druid as a non-divine caster

[Larkas]

I've recently begun to wonder whether druids really should be classified as divine spellcasters. As I understand it, druid spellcasting have as much to do with a cleric's (devotion to something) as it does with a wizard's (direct manipulation of the world's building blocks). Furthermore, it has its particularities, which further differentiate it from both types of spells. I have been thinking if it would be feasible to make druids (and by extension, rangers) cast a third type of spells (say, primal spells). Of course, this would precipitate a cascade of unintended consequences. Tons of PrCs would stop functioning out of the gate, though that's easy to fix. It wouldn't hurt to have a few PrCs theurging divine and primal spells either. But aside from that, is there anything I should be aware of if making this change? And, well, is this change even worth it?

On the other end of the spectrum, what if there wasn't any differentiation between arcane and divine spells?

[Urpriest]

Remember, the main differentiation between types of spells is the sorts of feats and PrCs that key off of them. Divine has things like Divine Metamagic, Arcane has things like Arcane Thesis. What sort of things ought Primal have?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Larkas
I have been thinking if it would be feasible to make druids (and by extension, rangers) cast a third type of spells (say, primal spells).

Love the name, and by extension the implied separation: arcane magic, divine magic, primal magic. As a seed concept, it works for me.

Question is how this would work in practice. Simply changing the name, while cool in itself, seems to miss a world of further possibilities.

[Larkas]

Remember, the main differentiation between types of spells is the sorts of feats and PrCs that key off of them. Divine has things like Divine Metamagic, Arcane has things like Arcane Thesis. What sort of things ought Primal have?

I must confess I hadn't stopped to consider that. Maybe some flavor of Maximize+Empower metamagic? I'm going full "green mana" flavor here :smallbiggrin: After all, that's taking Greenbound summoning a step further, right?


Love the name, and by extension the implied separation: arcane magic, divine magic, primal magic. As a seed concept, it works for me.

Question is how this would work in practice. Simply changing the name, while cool in itself, seems to miss a world of further possibilities.

My thoughts exactly! That's why I opened this brainstorming session ^_^

[Invader]

What exactly would it accomplish other than saying it's now a different source of magic?

[Asherion]

I think the other replies have hit the nail on the head. Is it a cool idea? Yes. I've instantly started considering it for my own setting, as soon as you said it, even the name fits well.

Consequences abound though. A lot of game balance is a very precarious stack of jenga blocks, and removing the 'divine' bit might cascade some.

That said, if it's important enough to you to houserule and deal with a little bit of mud, then do it! Deal with problems on a case by case basis until you get some rules cemented. Player wants to use a PrC or feat that requires divine casting? Tell them no, modify it to allow for Primal casting as well, or create a close-to-mirror ability with different flavor for Primal casters.

Definitely an interesting idea, and I agree that the same would probably apply to Rangers as well. Also, if you're a story and description heavy group, the flavor could be quite interesting too, as you could change some spell effects and that sort of thing to reflect the type of magic being employed.

[Snowbluff]

Remember, the main differentiation between types of spells is the sorts of feats and PrCs that key off of them. Divine has things like Divine Metamagic, Arcane has things like Arcane Thesis. What sort of things ought Primal have?

We already have them. Feats powered by wildshape uses. Ideally, I would break up the wildshape somehow to make it more versatile/appealing.

Spirit Shaman abilities would count for these, too.

[eggynack]

We already have them. Feats powered by wildshape uses. Ideally, I would break up the wildshape somehow to make it more versatile/appealing.

Spirit Shaman abilities would count for these, too.
Yeah, wild feats could be workable. I'm pretty sure that just about none of them are playable, so it would be nice if some of them were that.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, wild feats could be workable. I'm pretty sure that just about none of them are playable, so it would be nice if some of them were that.

Yeah, but they are pretty in line with what you would expect from a druid, whose gimmick is turning into a fighter. :smalltongue:

[Spore]

Like the idea.

Divine magic should be reserved for magic that dwell from believe and can be as dark as the night and as bright as hope. Arcane magic should flow from within the magical energies of the world, it should be studied and and exploited, much like physics.

Primal magic is the innert and long forgotten realm of simple yet powerful magic that holds no grudge but knows no bounds. Magic that is not white or black but colorless. There are some problems though. If Wizards are Sword& Magic "Scientists", wouldn't their main purpose of operation be to exploit nature and their magics? Wouldn't then primal magic BECOME arcane? Or if your druid happens to be a strong believer in the balance of nature. Does the magic become divine then?

Despite what they have done to the lore with the games, Blizzard explains their setting and their magic very well. Casters there have several sources of powers: Light users like Priests and Paladins utilize the hope and devotion within everyone. You can still use Paladin abilities if you just believe in your cause even if you kill thousands with that. Shamans ask (good) or torment (evil) the element(al)s into giving them strength like the speed of a hurricane and the fiery passion of the flames. Druids tap into the Emerald dream (basically a green mirror dimension to the material plane) so they get their powers from nature itself. Warlocks and Mages take their magic from ley lines, small fracture in the material realm that let parts of the void (demon dimension) trickle through. While Mages study and bundle their magic into cold magic (easy to control), fire magic (dangerous) or arcane power (hard to control, easy to get "addicted") to cast "classical" spells, warlocks tap directly into the powers of the void often sacrificing their well being in trade for power - be it with demonic pacts, corrupting energies or pure fel flame. Even necromancy is off demonic origin.

Direct exposure to fel energy corrupts, twists and makes you crazy. "Filtered usage" is easier to handle but still nothing for everyone. Being a magic student is a high honor, as is being an apprentice to an shaman for example. I really like the multi colored and still simple approach to different power sources in the Warcraft universe rather than trying to fit many many classes into two "schools" of magic.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Corrino
Is it a cool idea? Yes. I've instantly started considering it for my own setting, as soon as you said it....

Yeah, I think Larkas has started something here.

:smallbiggrin:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Personally, I'm loving this idea.

[Oko and Qailee]

What exactly would it accomplish other than saying it's now a different source of magic?

I think the goal is to make it accomplish the same thing as a Arcane/Divine split. It's flavor and then you make it mechanically different.


I must confess I hadn't stopped to consider that. Maybe some flavor of Maximize+Empower metamagic? I'm going full "green mana" flavor here :smallbiggrin: After all, that's taking Greenbound summoning a step further, right?


If you're going for green I think a good place to start is to think of exactly what Green is.

Growth, revitalization, ferocity, life, power are typical keywords I think.

The problem is some of that is pseudo-taken (powerful blasts and healing for example). I think a right way to go on this is buff but in a way much more unique than a single flat bonus. Maybe make metamagic feats that "grow out of control" or something?

[Kennisiou]

Yeah, wild feats could be workable. I'm pretty sure that just about none of them are playable, so it would be nice if some of them were that.

I'm personally a fan of Eagle's Wings, since being able to be a flying bear by giving up a wildshape is pretty nice.

[eggynack]

I'm personally a fan of Eagle's Wings, since being able to be a flying bear by giving up a wildshape is pretty nice.
That isn't terrible, though it suffers a bit from the fact that druids get access to some utterly ridiculous feats and is rather starved for them. I'd prefer maybe running a shifter and picking up swiftwing, though that too suffers by comparison, this time to dreamsight. Maybe on a moonspeaker picking up their second trait. Flying bears are neat though.

[Gemini476]

Didn't 4E have Primal as the power source for Druids/Barbarians/etc, or am I misremembering things?

What did they do to differentiate it from Divine and Arcane (and Martial and Shadow and Psionics, I guess?)

Also, even if Divine Metamagic and such stop working, that doesn't mean that you can't make new feats and abilities. Powering them with Wildshape sounds like a good start, although I guess I should also note that there are some other things that differentiate Arcane and Divine magic. Or there should be, at least. A Druid doesn't get Turn Undead, for instance, nor do most of the other divine casters. Not to mention that if you go back far enough (PHB seems like a good spot) then the differences that came later disappear and you're just left with Arcane Spell Failure and spell lists to differentiate them.
...Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that.