Roof Jumper While Flying?

[GhengisConrad]

Using the 'Death From Above' part of the feat 'Roof Jumper', would a character with natural flight by able to meet the charge requirements for a pounce by flying above and then deliberately falling (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a) onto a foe?

[Deophaun]

No.

"Death from Above" makes the attack you execute count as a charge attack, it does not actually initiate a charge. So the bonuses and penalties for that attack are calculated as if you have charged, but anything that modifies charges in general (such as pounce) does not come into play.

[GhengisConrad]

You've got to be kidding me.

Qualifying as a charge attack is not the same as it being a charge attack?

I'm not sure I buy that...

[Deophaun]

Qualifying as a charge attack is not the same as it being a charge attack?
No, a charge attack is not the same as a charge. A charge attack is an attack that happens during a charge.

"Charge attack" is not a common construction. I'm assuming the designers chose it deliberately instead of just using the more common "charge."

[GhengisConrad]

~~~~~:annoyed:~~~~~

[Deophaun]

Ghengis, read the following and tell me what phrase is missing:

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, its attack deals extra damage in addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge. The amount of damage from the attack is given in the creature’s description.
How is it that in these scenarios "charge" was sufficient, yet Roof-Jumper somehow needs to say "charge attack" for the exact same thing?

[GhengisConrad]

The phrase "charge attack" is in at least 20 different feats.

[Deophaun]

The phrase "charge attack" is in at least 20 different feats.
Then list them please. I've been gracious and provided quotes so you don't have to look around. Be considerate and return the favor.

[GhengisConrad]

Sorry.

I think looking up the maneuver "pouncing charge" may be most relevant. I will also follow with a list of feats.


From Pouncing Charge Maneuver of the Tiger Claw Maneuvers.
"As part of initiating this maneuver, you make a charge attack. Instead of making a single attack at the end of your charge, you can make a full attack. The bonus on your attack roll for making a charge attack applies to all your attack rolls."

[GhengisConrad]

Hurling Charge ( Miniatures Handbook, p. 27)

Bestial Charge ( Complete Champion, p. 56)

Neraph Charge ( Planar Handbook, p. 40)

Cavalry Charger ( Complete Warrior, p. 108)

Distant Horizon ( Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, p. 34)

Headlong Rush ( Races of Faerun, p. 164)

Cobolt Charge ( Magic of Incarnum, p. 35)

Ragewild Fighting ( Races of Eberron, p. 118)

Faith Unswerving ( Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, p. 34)

Mark of Minauros ( Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, p. 84)

Hold the Line ( Shining South, p. 20)

Knight Of The Lolth ( Drow of the Underdark, p. 51)

Shi`Quos School ( Drow of the Underdark, p. 56)

Razorclaw Elite ( Races of Eberron, p. 114)

Mantis Leap ( Sword and Fist: A Guidebook to Monks and Fighters, p. 7)

Brute Fighting ( Races of Eberron, p. 116)

Gorebrute Elite ( Races of Eberron, p. 114)

Roof-Jumper ( CityScape, p. 62)

Drow Scorpion Warrior ( Secrets of Xen'drik, p. 134)

[broodax]

I think that trying to find a difference between charge and charge attack is being pedantic.

However, "this qualifies as a charge attack, with all relevant bonuses and penalties."

and


Charge
Charging is a special full-round action

mean you still need a full-round action to do this.

[Deophaun]

Good. I was wrong and "charge attack" is used synonymously with "charge." So we can cross that objection off.

The next portion is "deliberately jump down." I don't think this works with simply falling. Here's Jump in the SRD:


Jumping Down

If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.

If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.
Action

None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.
So, a jump is part of a move action. A fall, on the other hand, is a free action, so it's not enough to trigger Roof-Jumper.

Now, can you fly over someone and then, as part of that movement, "jump" down? By RAW, I don't see anything that says you need a surface to jump off of, so that technicality may let you. Not that I would say it breaks any kind of immersion, as "jumping down" doesn't work much differently in terms of physics than a fall; how you leave the top doesn't matter so much as how you hit the bottom. But, a ruling in favor of this would also allow things like double jumps (jump as a move action, at height of jump, swift action Sudden Leap). But, it's not like that isn't a pervasive trope or anything.

[GhengisConrad]

Good. I was wrong and "charge attack" is used synonymously with "charge." So we can cross that objection off.

lol.
Its a mark of a STRONG mind to be able to change your opinion, and I think we both must be strong minded, because in looking up those feats and posting them, I ended up convincing myself of your original position.

I would have to say that a 'charge' is broken up into 'charge action' which appears to be the movement part of a charge, and charge attack, which appears to be the charge part of a charge.

Rewording pounce in this syntax would look just like what I quoted from Pouncing Charge Maneuver of the Tiger Claw Maneuvers, and since nothing in battlejump Roof Jumper qualifies as a charge action a pounce cannot be initiated.

[GhengisConrad]

although, again now, I don't know what I am talking about.

Look at Stagger (Ex) from Drunken Master (which also uses the phrase 'charge attack'):

By tripping, stumbling, and staggering, a drunken master of 2nd level or higher can make a charge attack that surprises his opponents. This ability has two beneficial aspects: First, the charge need not be in a straight line, even though the character can still move up to twice his speed. Second, if a drunken master makes a DC 15 Tumble check before beginning a charge, his movement through threatened squares provokes no attacks of opportunity.

[GhengisConrad]

Alright, final answer:

~What if~

I were to jump, blink shirt above someone, and then 'Roof Jumper' 'Death from Above' Charge Attack Pounce them?

Would that, at last, be a thing?

[Darrin]

I'm still pondering what this Roof-Jumper feat is supposed to do. The text doesn't have any activation language other than "deliberately leap down". This sounds like a reference to the "Jumping Down" section of the Jump skill (PHB p. 77). That leads me to the section where it talks about the action required to use the Jump skill:

"Action: None. A Jump check is included in your movement, so it is part of a move action."

This tells me that to use Roof-Jumper, you need at least a move action, although any action that involves movement + Jump check should do. That move action then "qualifies as a charge attack". But then, I'm firmly in the "Battle Jump turns any action into a full-round charge" camp.

I'm not sure how it interacts with flight. On the one hand, it seems to run against common sense to say you can jump while flying. On the other hand, I don't see anything explicit in the jump rules that says you can't jump while flying. And on the gripping hand, we all know RAW and Common Sense aren't on speaking terms.

Again, I wish this was written more clearly... I think I can see glimmerings of the designer intent here, but they've hamstrung us by being deliberately obtuse about knowing their own rules.

[GhengisConrad]

But then, I'm firmly in the "Battle Jump turns any action into a full-round charge" camp.

I think you mean "any fall"?

[Deophaun]

lol.
Its a mark of a STRONG mind to be able to change your opinion, and I think we both must be strong minded, because in looking up those feats and posting them, I ended up convincing myself of your original position.
At first, going through a list of feats, I thought my position was going to hold, then I ran into a few that clearly didn't fit, like Headlong Rush:

A headlong rush otherwise functions like a charge attack (+2 attack, -2 AC, straight-line movement only)
Which I fail to see how it can be read to possibly support my original position.

[GhengisConrad]

I'm encouraged that you can reduce damage by a Jump or Tumble Check.

I'm fairly certain that you cannot 'jump' whilst flying, but you can tumble.

[GhengisConrad]

I searched like a demon. There is no mention of 'leap down' ANYWHERE in d&d other than Roof Walker, and Acrobatic Charge.

leap
lēp/
verb
1.
jump or spring a long way, to a great height, or with great force.


spring
spriNG/
verb
1.
move or jump suddenly or rapidly upward or forward.

__________________________________________________ __________

I find no problems asserting that I can move suddenly a long way (20 ft) downward while flying.

Roof Jumper's Death from Above ~can~ be executed whilst flying, by RAW.

No?

[Rizban]

While I can't claim to be an professional rules lawyer, having never been paid to do so, I'm actually rather familiar with the feat and how it works. I'd like to give my own take on how this works as compared to another, similar feat.

Battle Jump
First of all, let's look at Battle Jump. The opening line of the benefit text reads as follows.
You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of...This is the line of text which dictates how the feat can be used. For the purposes of activation, this is the key. the rest of the feat text is currently irrelevant to this discussion as it has no bearing on the activation.

Now, "simply by dropping from a height" means that you must be above your target and moving downward toward your target. Whether you are falling intentionally or by accident, it does not matter. Therefore, if you are bull rushed off of a cliff and find yourself above an enemy, you can potentially activate this feat.

Unfortunately, unless it's a very, very tall cliff, the feat does not work this way due entirely to the part which reads, "You can execute a charge by". As was established previously in this thread, a charge is a full-round action. This text does not change that in any way. It also does not change the requirement of needing a straight, unobstructed line between you and your target. Taken in context, the feat Battle Jump simply gives you a new way to execute a charge attack and gain additional benefits from it.

Since you simply must be above your enemy, able to move down, and able to use a full-round action, you may indeed use this feat while flying. It would also be quite useful on the Elemental Plane of Air, as you could effectively define almost any direction as "down" to use the feat.


Roof-Jumper
This feat is very different from Battle Jump. The opening text of the Death From Above segment of Roof-Jumper reads as follows.
You do substantial damage if you deliberately leap down to attack a foe beneath you.This text actually affects very, very little. Most importantly, the text does not require you to execute a charge or take any other particular action; however, it does place two requirements on you:
First, you must be above an enemy.
Second, you must fall deliberately. You can't use this if you get bull rushed off of something or fail a Balance check. You must fall deliberately at an enemy who is already beneath you. In other words, you must take some action to deliberately begin your drop. The particular action is not actually defined in the text. This in turn implies that you may only use this feat on your own turn, as you must take some action to use it. While you might get away with using this as an Immediate Action, there is precedent for those only being usable with certain, specific and limited abilities which must be explicitly stated as usable as Immediate Actions.


The next relevant text is as follows.
You must roll to hit; this qualifies as a charge attack, with all relevant bonuses and penalties.This part of the feat text has nothing to do with the activation of the feat. At this point, the feat has already been activated. This is the effect segment of the feat.

The important word here is "qualifies." It acts as a charge without actually being one. In other words, you are not restricted to the requirements of a charge by this feat, i.e. needing a full-round action, a direct line of movement, etc.

Next, the clause "with all relevant bonuses and penalties" kicks in. This means that you gain the +2 bonus on the attack roll and the -2 penalty to your AC.

These two clauses together mean that any other effects/abilities/etc. that you have which are triggered by a charge are activated. This not only is counted as a charge, but "all" the benefits and penalties are specifically stated to be included.

Yes, this means that you can potentially use this feat to make a charge as a free action, even making a pounce with it.

Unfortunately, this isn't open license to do everything. This is, again, a new way to execute a charge attack. This means that any other feats or abilities that activate a charge do NOT trigger. Specifically, Battle Jump and Roof-Jumper are mutually exclusive. Either A) you use Battle Jump to execute a charge and gain its benefits, or B) you use Roof-Jumper to execute a charge and gain its benefits. Neither one can be used during a charge, meaning you must pick one or the other.



Battle Jump
Full-Round Action
Is a charge attack
Must follow most rules of executing a charge
Can potentially be used in reaction to unintentional drops
Doubles all damage

Roof-Jumper
"Any" Action on your turn which must be intentional
Is a charge attack
Ignores many normal rules for a charge
Effectively adds your falling damage to your target

[GhengisConrad]

~~Rizban, THANK YOU!!!!!!~~

It has been a long couple of weeks wrapping my mind around Battle Jump, and I am happy that I have at least found a feat that will kinda do what I wanted to do with Battle Jump.

I just love the idea of engineering a build that finds its way (intentionally of course) via blink shirt, shadow jaunt, whatever, 'above' the opponent, and then unleashes with a fury of natural weapons.

[Wings of Peace]

Having read the relevant abilities I don't believe Pounce works with this combination. Death From Above qualifies as a Charge Attack but not an actual Charge (which Pounce requires to function).

Pounce states
"When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. "

Because Death From Above takes me from a non-charging state to a Charge Attacking state without the intermediary Charge where I decide whether or not to attack (or full-attack in this case) it does not meet the requirements needed to activate Pounce.

[GhengisConrad]

Having read the relevant abilities I don't believe Pounce works with this combination. Death From Above qualifies as a Charge Attack but not an actual Charge (which Pounce requires to function).

Pounce states

Because Death From Above takes me from a non-charging state to a Charge Attacking state without the intermediary Charge where I decide whether or not to attack (or full-attack in this case) it does not meet the requirements needed to activate Pounce.

Despite headlong charge mentioning movement as its 'charge attack', despite the feat 'Bestial Charge' using 'charge' and 'charge attack' intermitidley, and even despite the Spells 'Pouncing Charge' and 'Crabwalk' eh?

[Zombulian]

~~Rizban, THANK YOU!!!!!!~~

It has been a long couple of weeks wrapping my mind around Battle Jump, and I am happy that I have at least found a feat that will kinda do what I wanted to do with Battle Jump.

I just love the idea of engineering a build that finds its way (intentionally of course) via blink shirt, shadow jaunt, whatever, 'above' the opponent, and then unleashes with a fury of natural weapons.

What you may want to note is the clause on Blink Shirt that you "cannot take any other actions this turn."

[GhengisConrad]

Consider Bestial Charge:

"This feat [...] requires that you attempt a charge attack in the round immediately following your shift into animal form using wild shape[...] [First Maneuver] Pouncing Charge: You can make a full attack after you charge"

So, you have to run, and then, in the middle of a charge, shift, and then attempt a charge attack, because if there is something between a 'charge' and a 'charge attack', then you would not be immediately following your shift into animal with the effect.

[Rizban]

What you may want to note is the clause on Blink Shirt that you "cannot take any other actions this turn."

This.

Consider Bestial Charge:

"This feat [...] requires that you attempt a charge attack in the round immediately following your shift into animal form using wild shape[...] [First Maneuver] Pouncing Charge: You can make a full attack after you charge"

So, you have to run, and then, in the middle of a charge, shift, and then attempt a charge attack, because if there is something between a 'charge' and a 'charge attack', then you would not be immediately following your shift into animal with the effect.
No. You must shift on the round previous to the charge, not the same round.

[OldTrees1]

If you are flying, why are you not using a Diving Attack instead? A Diving Attack is explicitly a charge and has different movement requirements (fly forward and fly down).

[GhengisConrad]

This. lol, yep. Saw that. oh well. That's fine.



No. You must shift on the round previous to the charge, not the same round.

I know. I was pointing out the ludacrisicty of his position, as he was saying a charge attack is not a charge.

[GhengisConrad]

If you are flying, why are you not using a Diving Attack instead? A Diving Attack is explicitly a charge and has different movement requirements (fly forward and fly down).

because a dive attack functions like a charge except; and that functioning, requires you to be in a straight line.

Battle Jump Roof Jumper will allow me to swerve around and otherwise do almost anything as long as I end up above my opponent leaping down still being able to act.

[OldTrees1]

because a dive attack functions like a charge except; and that functioning, requires you to be in a straight line.

Didn't you find 2 or more ways to remove the straight line requirement from a charge? Since Diving Attack is a charge, rather than merely being like a charge, wouldn't a Stagger + Diving Attack work?

[GhengisConrad]

Diving attack only lets you use claws or talons; although I see nothing in the rules that says you can't simply charge (instead of dive attack) while flying.

Yeah, I like Stagger-Pounce. But it requires 5 levels and 2 feats to get. Just looking for a cheaper way to get what I want.

Although, the more I think about it, Roof Jumper (and battle jump for that matter) really tie my up inside of caves/caverns.


Yeah, after all of this, I'll probably stick with the Drunk.

[Rizban]

because a dive attack functions like a charge except; and that functioning, requires you to be in a straight line.

Battle Jump Roof Jumper will allow me to swerve around and otherwise do almost anything as long as I end up above my opponent leaping down still being able to act.

I almost used Roof-Jumper + Hurling Charge in this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12661121&postcount=184), but I opted for multiple standard actions per round instead. It's a good build regardless of which route you take though and is an iconic example of why I love kreen.

[OldTrees1]

Diving attack only lets you use claws or talons

Unless you are a Raptorian or Dragonborn. They can do a Diving attack if the wield a piercing weapon (like the Hunger domain Bite).