Why can Specialist Wizards not drop Divination?

[tadkins]

Has this ever been explained? Thinking about Wizards right now and thought about why this might be.

As another side note, regarding Enchanter wizards, is it a viable tactic to have a group of mind-controlled specialists adept at fighting things that are immune to mind-affecting spells? I picture an Enchanter charming or enslaving a paladin or cleric adept at fighting undead to take care of that weakness, and so forth.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Most likely they determined during playtesting that divination was a very limited school and very easy to discard, so instead of trying to justify giving the school powerful combat spells they simply created a prohibition on banning it.

If an Enchanter keeps Necromancy he can get Command Undead and not even have a weakness there. But charming NPCs who are good at fighting the stuff you're not good at fighting isn't going to make specializing in enchantment into a better choice. It's actually extremely hazardous as all an opponent needs to do is cast Protection from [Alignment] on them or have a Magic Circle against [Alignment]. Suddenly that minion who you were expecting to fight the badguy for you has teamed up with the badguy who you're not good at fighting and they're both coming after you.

[Telonius]

I've always assumed it's because Read Magic is a Divination spell. All wizards can prepare that without a spellbook, so it would be impossible to drop it. (Personally I'd say that makes Read Magic a good candidate for Universal rather than Divination, but there you go).

[watchwood]

Mostly because divination is just such a crappy school. There's a few ways they could have fixed it, but I think that moving the time-affecting spells over to it (slow/haste/timestop/the entire celerity line) would have been the best fix.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Divination was percieved as the least powerful school. This is also why Diviners only have to ban one school and the Spontaneous Divination ability exists.

To be fair Divination has relatively few spells and in many games it's never used aside from Identify.

MIndslaves are a viable tactic for Enchanters, I'd recommend not aiming for characters with some of the highest Will Saves in the game as well as protective spells.

[Zanos]

Divination was percieved as the least powerful school.

Ah WotC, what foresight you lacked.
wow such pun

[tadkins]

Makes sense, it'd probably be an easy school for a lot of people to drop knowing that.

Also, I admit that the paladin/cleric thing was a bad example. Maybe enslave a ranger with the appropriate favored enemy. xD

[Grod_The_Giant]

Because the designers were working on the assumption of blaster wizards who prepared nothing but magic missile and fireball. "Divination? Who needs that? You can't ban it because it's so much weaker than everything else. You're not losing any damage potential!"

[Dalebert]

I like the idea of divination actually being useful. They went to next to zero effort to come up with useful spells for it. Right off the top of my head, I'm picturing combat buffs based on granting a combatant glimpses just fractions of a second into the future. Things like that. Also, variations on clairvoyance that maybe let you get a flash of what's on the other side of a door. There's so much you can do with it to make it a viable school that doesn't require it to be given a special classification. I intend to add some spells like these to my game and have an NPC diviner use some of them. If I do a good enough job, I might just house-rule away the special category for divination.

[ryu]

I like the idea of divination actually being useful. They went to next to zero effort to come up with useful spells for it. Right off the top of my head, I'm picturing combat buffs based on granting a combatant glimpses just fractions of a second into the future. Things like that. Also, variations on clairvoyance that maybe let you get a flash of what's on the other side of a door. There's so much you can do with it to make it a viable school that doesn't require it to be given a special classification. I intend to add some spells like these to my game and have an NPC diviner use some of them. If I do a good enough job, I might just house-rule away the special category for divination.

Would spontaneous divination still be allowed after buffing the school to this degree?

[Dalebert]

Would spontaneous divination still be allowed after buffing the school to this degree?

I'm not familiar and I can't find a reference for it.

[ryu]

I'm not familiar and I can't find a reference for it.

It's a very common feat for wizards that lets them turn any slot they have, including those with spells already in them, into a slot for a divination spell of equal or lower level. Basically it's mostly used for making sure no slots go to waste at the end of the day by letting you turn them into free info gathering. It's just SO good.

[Phelix-Mu]

Back in the day, probably back way in 2e, divination was a bit weaker and smaller. They probably grandfathered it in to the newer additions, even while they then published a bunch of splats with some truly silly applications of divination.

Also, the undue focus on in-combat, tactical use of abilities versus the out-of-combat, strategic use of abilities. For some reason, WotC totally got that balance wrong, and made dozens of spells that rip the game to shreds when used strategically or during downtime to secure ultimate advantage. Divination really shines in this arena; forewarned is forearmed, knowledge is power, time is money, and so forth all basically point out that knowing stuff, and knowing stuff earlier, are pretty much boss.

[Sith_Happens]

Ah WotC, what foresight you lacked.
wow such pun

http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q377/StockersPics/image_zpse0167835.jpg

[Dalebert]

It's a very common feat for wizards that lets them turn any slot they have, including those with spells already in them, into a slot for a divination spell of equal or lower level.

Since that appears to be based on the same premise as to why they made divination its own downgraded category, I think that would have to go as well if I felt that I had repaired the school enough (with new spells) to treat it like the other schools.

EDIT: If not that, I would def feel the need to put some restrictions on it such as possibly...
* dramatically increase the casting time (so people don't use it for the new combat spells in div)
* Make being a diviner a pre-req
* Make you sacrifice a spell of a level higher

[Kelb_Panthera]

Mostly because divination is just such a crappy school. There's a few ways they could have fixed it, but I think that moving the time-affecting spells over to it (slow/haste/timestop/the entire celerity line) would have been the best fix.


I like the idea of divination actually being useful. They went to next to zero effort to come up with useful spells for it.

I always find this misguided opinion hilarious. I'm not really sure why.

Divination, when properly used, is quite probably the single most powerful school of magic in the game. The misconception that it's weak comes from the fact its power is indirect. Knowledge is power and there's nothing that can gather information faster than a well wielded suite of divinations. Its also got some solid combat buffs and tactical level recon spells.


Right off the top of my head, I'm picturing combat buffs based on granting a combatant glimpses just fractions of a second into the future. Things like that. Also, variations on clairvoyance that maybe let you get a flash of what's on the other side of a door. There's so much you can do with it to make it a viable school that doesn't require it to be given a special classification. I intend to add some spells like these to my game and have an NPC diviner use some of them. If I do a good enough job, I might just house-rule away the special category for divination.

Combat buffs and debuffs

Level 1: true strike, arrow mind, critical strike, guided shot, sniper's shot targeting ray

level 2: balancing lorecall

level 3: unluck, lesser telepathic bond

level 4: assay spell resistance, know vulnerabilites

level 5: telepathic bond

level 6: true seeing, interplanar telepathic bond

level 8: moment of prescience

level 9: foresight, eye of power



tactical level recon

level 1: detect secret doors, instant search, spontaneous search

level 2: locate object, see invisibility, discern shapechanger, marked object

level 3: arcane sight, clairaudience/clairvoyance, circle dance

level 4: arcane eye, detect scrying, locate creature

level 6: true seeing

level 7: greater arcane sight



strategic recon and general information gathering*

level 3: clairaudience/clairvoyance, analyze portal

level 4: arcane eye, scrying, treasure scent

level 5: contact other plane, prying eyes

level 6: legend lore, probe thoughts

level 7: greater scrying, vision

level 8: greater prying eyes, discern location

level 9: eye of power

*only noteworthy spells, since virtually all divinations that don't fall into the first two categories fit here.



Note also that these are just from the PHB + SpC and are only drawn from the sorc/wiz list. Broaden the sources or classes drawn from and this list only gets longer and more potent.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I've always assumed it's because Read Magic is a Divination spell. All wizards can prepare that without a spellbook, so it would be impossible to drop it. (Personally I'd say that makes Read Magic a good candidate for Universal rather than Divination, but there you go).

This exactly. Divination was bannable in 3.0 when Read Magic was universal.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ah WotC, what foresight you lacked.
wow such pun

I see what you did there.

And ya, basically, WotC were operating under (false) pretense of how the game would be played. They believed direct power, things that either dealt damage or directly dispensed foes (SoL or SoDs) were more powerful than eliminating doubt (IE, Divinations purpose).

[Flickerdart]

This exactly. Divination was bannable in 3.0 when Read Magic was universal.
Unless I am mistaken, you couldn't just pick Divination to ban - you lost it when specializing only in Necromancy, which suffers from some of the same problems Enchantment does (limited effectiveness vs. some creature types, easy to block, restricted range of effects) and rivals it for easiest-to-drop school in 3.5.

[Endarire]

What does that giant E mean?

[Rubik]

What does that giant E mean?It's shorthand for EEEEEEEEEE!*






*Actually, I have no idea.

[eggynack]

Is it, perhaps, a big wood E, AKA, a big woody? That was my first instinct. Not sure how it is derived from divinations, but there ya go.

[Rubik]

Is it, perhaps, a big wood E, AKA, a big woody? That was my first instinct. Not sure how it is derived from divinations, but there ya go.It looks steel-e to me.

[eggynack]

It looks steel-e to me.
On closer inspection, it seems you may be correct. In that case, perhaps it represents the steel-e gaze of a person with foresight.

[Rubik]

On closer inspection, it seems you may be correct. In that case, perhaps it represents the steel-e gaze of a person with foresight.Or maybe that divination is actually totally metal?

[eggynack]

Or maybe that divination is actually totally metal?
More like total-e metal. Or perhaps total-e metal...e.

[Bullet06320]

spontaneous divination
where is this, im not familiar with it

[eggynack]

spontaneous divination
where is this, im not familiar with it
It's in complete champion, page 52, and it trades one of your wizard bonus feats for the ability to spontaneously convert spells for divinations.

[Bullet06320]

thanks eggy

[TypoNinja]

On closer inspection, it seems you may be correct. In that case, perhaps it represents the steel-e gaze of a person with foresight.

The pun is much worse than that.

Its rusted, which implies iron rather than steel.

[eggynack]

The pun is much worse than that.

Its rusted, which implies iron rather than steel.
I guess I must be getting rust-e at identifying metals.

Edit: My brother suspects that the intended pun is iron-e, as in irony. This seems to be the likely solution.

[TypoNinja]

I guess I must be getting rust-e at identifying metals.

Edit: My brother suspects that the intended pun is iron-e, as in irony. This seems to be the likely solution.

Told you it was a terrible pun :P

[Rubik]

Told you it was a terrible pun :PSith is just e-vil.

[Zanos]

I guess I must be getting rust-e at identifying metals.

Edit: My brother suspects that the intended pun is iron-e, as in irony. This seems to be the likely solution.

And here I thought it was an "E for Effort."

I feel dumb.

[Sith_Happens]

Edit: My brother suspects that the intended pun is iron-e, as in irony. This seems to be the likely solution.

Ding! You are correct.


Sith is just e-vil.

Thank you.:smallamused:

[Drachasor]

The reasoning I recall reading was that Divination provides too many wizard basics to be dropped. Primarily Detect Magic and Read Magic, but some other stuff too.

[nedz]

I've always assumed it's because Read Magic is a Divination spell. All wizards can prepare that without a spellbook, so it would be impossible to drop it. (Personally I'd say that makes Read Magic a good candidate for Universal rather than Divination, but there you go).

This was the rationale behind this rule in previous editions. So I'd guess, ..., but who really knows ?

[Killer Angel]

To be fair Divination has relatively few spells and in many games it's never used aside from Identify.

:smallconfused:

Are you sarcastic?

true strike
see invisibility
Tongue / arcane sight
arcane eye / scrying
contact other plane
True seeing / legend lore
Arcane sight Greater
moment of prescience
foresight

Core only, every single level got very useful divination spells.

The real strenght of wizards, is preparation. Guess what's the school that gives you the instruments to be prepared?

[Rastapopolos]

Unluck, Alter Fortune... that is all

EDIT- oop choose destiny isnt a wizard spell. my bad. however- insight of good fortune is pretty much the same but a one shot at a much lower level

[Zirconia]

If you were limited to Divination spells in the Players handbook, it would indeed be a bit weak of a school, in fact I was wondering if I would be able to find enough spells at all levels with my Diviner in a campaign I was going to be in (we have a homebrew system for that). With other books there is some pretty good stuff, I had no trouble. It is probably one of the strongest schools for someone like a Wizard who can swap spells each day, because of its extensive "strategic" use. In addition to what Kelb mentioned, since he restricted himself to the Players Handbook and Spellcasters Compendium,

Combat buffs and debuffs

Level 1: True Casting (+10 to penetrate Spell Resistance, swift cast, Complete Mage)

level 2: Insight of Good Fortune (one reroll, lasts 1 min/lvl, Players Handbook 2)

level 3: Alter Fortune (immediate, grants reroll, Players Handbook 2)


tactical level recon

level 2: Listening Lorecall (+4 Listen bonus and Blindsense/Blindsight, Complete Adventurer)

Insidious Insight (+10 Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Intimidate, 1 day/lvl, single target, Races of Eberron)

Detect Thoughts (Players Handbook, but he didn't mention it, great for questioning prisoners or replacing Sense Motive)

level 3: Crown of Clarity (+2/discharge for +8 bonus Listen, Spot, 1 hr/lvl, Players Handbook 2)


strategic recon and general information gathering*

level 2: Chain of Eyes (pass vision between critters, Spellcasters Compendium)

level 3: Telepathic Bond, Lesser (10 min/lvl telepathy with willing creature, Spellcasters Compendium)