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Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-15, 11:55 PM
Many 3.x fixes, homebrews and even commercial alternate systems have Initiative as a skill.

Why is such option made? How is it any better or worse than the usual?

For me, it appears to be funnier, but potentially more... broken, too? What are your thoughts and experiences?

Knaight
2014-01-16, 12:01 AM
Many 3.x fixes, homebrews and even commercial alternate systems have Initiative as a skill.

Why is such option made? How is it any better or worse than the usual?

For me, it appears to be funnier, but potentially more... broken, too? What are your thoughts and experiences?

It works - it's basically just a step that allows higher level characters to act first more reliably if they aim for it, and is no different than something like a fast draw skill in a more skill based game. There's nothing broken about it.

Zanos
2014-01-16, 12:06 AM
It works - it's basically just a step that allows higher level characters to act first more reliably if they aim for it, and is no different than something like a fast draw skill in a more skill based game. There's nothing broken about it.
There are, however, many, many more ways to boost a skill than there are a dex ability check.

If your party optimizes sufficiently it's possible you will see initiatives of "I always go first." This is possible with the normal system, of course, but requires significant investment. It also hurts the low skillpoint martial classes quite a bit. You basically get a dichotomy of people who maxed out initiative pretty much always going first, and those who couldn't going last.

If you aren't playing with regular ol' 3.5 magic/spells/items though, it could potentially be better. Limit it as a class skill to quicker classes like rogues or snipers so they can actually go first reliably.

Lappy9001
2014-01-16, 12:22 AM
I know Fax Celestis made an Initiative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122341)skill for his d20r system. It worked pretty well, but we were playing high level, and it got a little crazy. I did like how his had actual uses, like negating sneak attack damage, which is handy. It also worked well in the d20r system, that has quite a few fun ways to play around with initiative results.

I would suggest using something like 1/2 level bonus to all skills if you do use an Initiative skill. Otherwise, if someone doesn't optimize it, they kind of get left in the dust constantly.

TuggyNE
2014-01-16, 08:15 AM
While it may be balanced level-for-level, stylistically, it misses a certain point. Skills were conceived as being about what you do outside combat, and the skill point allocations by class reflect that assumption. But giving something specifically and almost exclusively about combat to skill points, it derails one of the core assumptions about skills.

Well, many skills are largely about out-of-combat. Hide, Spot, Move Silently, Listen, Intimidate, Bluff, Jump, Tumble, Ride, Balance, Concentration, Handle Animal, and even UMD all have significant potential in-combat uses, so it's not strictly accurate to say that they're out-of-combat only.

Still, point taken that making a skill that cannot be used aside from a single combat use at all is perhaps a bit unwise.

Mighty_Chicken
2014-01-16, 10:00 AM
Also, in a more combat oriented table, why would anyone not get it, right?

I mean, Tumble has vital importance for some builds, and it's also used for exploration or fluff. Initiative has no fluff other than "you're better at this aspect of combat". Fax Celestis idea is interesting, but it's also for combat only and could be done with other skills.

Or am I wrong? Is there an ocasion where not everyone would invest points in Initiative?

DedWards
2014-01-16, 10:20 AM
Initiative as a skill has a lot of pro's and con's and depends on the system. I've recently been playing Star Wars: Saga Edition and the way they handle skills fits nicely with having initiative as a skill (imo). [I also like how they used Reflex in place of AC :smalltongue: ]

nonsi
2014-01-16, 01:51 PM
I personally prefer adding 1/2 base Ref save as init bonus.
It grants the "lightweight" sneaky dudes inherent elevated chances to beat their opponents to the punch. It could also make the difference when they attempt to evade chasers or prevent one from escaping.
Its both appropriate thematically and serves to somewhat narrow the gap between them and the heavy hitters.

Kislath
2014-01-16, 05:53 PM
Initiative as a skill is brilliant. I liken it to having a "quick draw."

TuggyNE
2014-01-16, 08:57 PM
Also, in a more combat oriented table, why would anyone not get it, right?

I mean, Tumble has vital importance for some builds, and it's also used for exploration or fluff. Initiative has no fluff other than "you're better at this aspect of combat". Fax Celestis idea is interesting, but it's also for combat only and could be done with other skills.

Or am I wrong? Is there an ocasion where not everyone would invest points in Initiative?

There are some niches in which high initiative is not particularly desirable. Flanking sneak attackers, for example, often need to delay to get into position, and while rolling high on initiative is not precisely bad, neither is it necessarily worth much investment. (On the other hand, a bit of build differentiation would allow a high initiative to spend its first full turn attacking flat-footed enemies from range, so there's that.) Similarly, any build based around healing or status removal would prefer to spend its doubtless highly limited skills in other areas, since, again, it will likely need to wait around anyway. Charging builds will likely place a somewhat higher value on going early, but probably do not want to go first (in order to prevent awkward cases where their positioning spang in the middle of the foes prevents use of an efficient area effect).

A potential variant that hasn't been mentioned yet is to fold such a skill into some sort of iaijutsu idea, weaponizing high initiative in certain cases (possibly with a feat, skill trick, or class feature needed to take advantage of the use). But that's just more combat stuff, so while it does make the skill more flexible it doesn't change the dynamics much.

NichG
2014-01-16, 09:23 PM
For D&D, the in/out of combat separation tends to cause problems elsewhere in the system anyhow (usually with 'well, this character is good at fighting, so he should suck at out of combat stuff' design sentiments). So violating that particular design assumption is a plus rather than a minus in my book.

Outside of D&D, I've run games where initiative was a skill. It tended to be one of those things people forgot to take, then regretted it when they needed to pre-empt an enemy's action (e.g. there was an implicit assumption that in a situation where the enemy is one action away from causing something horrible to happen, they will get an action in between to stop them; but in practice, that came down to initiative, and most of them had put their xp into the more 'proactive' skills).

So while I think initiative-as-a-skill makes a lot of sense (even out of combat it has a number of uses), it did strike me as one of the more 'reactive' skill - the kind of thing that players say 'drat, why didn't I buy that?' when they need it, but they never want it for its own coolness factor. A system can't really sustain too many reactive skills (its better for players to pursue something they want to be good at than to feel stretched thin covering their weaknesses), so I'd say its probably best to only have Initiative as a skill if its one of the only ones like that.

Just to Browse
2014-01-17, 01:12 AM
Initiative is very important in fights because it grants you a huge bonus to the fight. Everyone scales well off initiative--rogues/ninjas get a free sneak attack round, tanks can position themselves, casters and archers get a shot off without having to move away from foes, etc. So this is like the UMD/Spot problem, where the skill is so damn good that you take it whenever you can. People who don't take it get never go first ever.

And this is a class where fighters get 2 + Int skill points per level. If you get them into an initiative arms race and they're forced to max it out so they have a decent chance of going first, then they're going to be sad.

So from a skill tax perspective, and from an absolute benefit perspective, this isn't a good idea. I prefer adding BAB to initiative, so fighters go first and are happy.