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View Full Version : Charisma instead of wisdom to Will Saves



Rama_Lei
2007-01-22, 10:23 PM
I don't really agree with the fact that wisdom include willpower and will saves. Willpower, at least for me, is the strength of your self awareness. Not to mention a charismatic person is less likely to be controlled than a wise one. You may know someone isn't true, but Charisma is the courage to stop them. This is a small change that should make charisma less of a dump stat.

P.S Sorry for the jumbled writing, it's late.

TheOOB
2007-01-22, 10:26 PM
The problum with this is that a character shouldn't have to be socially adept in order to be strong willed, in fact many people who have strong minds are very reserved and unsociable.

Wehrkind
2007-01-22, 10:28 PM
Perhaps it should be the average of the two?

Cruiser1
2007-01-22, 10:36 PM
The problum with this is that a character shouldn't have to be socially adept in order to be strong willed.
CHA instead of WIS to Will saves fits, because the CHA stat is more the force of your personality, and not how socially graceful you are. Even the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha) says about CHA: "This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."

tbarrie
2007-01-22, 10:36 PM
The problum with this is that a character shouldn't have to be socially adept in order to be strong willed, in fact many people who have strong minds are very reserved and unsociable.

Which could just mean that they have high Charisma but no ranks in any social skills.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-22, 10:37 PM
There's a feat in...CAdv, I think, that lets you swap your WIS for your CHA when determining will saves. I often give it to Bards if I think they're going up against dangerous and influential magical forces.

Stephen_E
2007-01-22, 10:40 PM
The problum with this is that a character shouldn't have to be socially adept in order to be strong willed, in fact many people who have strong minds are very reserved and unsociable.

Charisma isn't particully how socially adept one is (see the 3.5 PHB).
To be socially adept is the have the social skills and feats. Before 3.0 Charisma was much more an indicator of social adeptness, but with skills they introduced another way of hanfling social abilities. As many people have pointed out if you want a social character, Int is more important than Char in the long run, because the additional skill points win out over the one shot stat boost.

Stephen

ishi
2007-01-22, 10:40 PM
CHA makes more sense than WIS to some will saves, against enchantments and divinations, but WIS still makes more sense (to me) than CHA when making saves against illusion effects, since wisdom includes perception. If it were to be changed, I'd think that the current Will Save needs to be separated.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-22, 10:42 PM
I've always wondered that too. Now, I could understand perception and reasoning being used to weasel out of Charms or recognize illusions, but most Will saves are against things like, say, your entire mind being utterly crushed and rebuilt. I don't care how "perceptive" you are, nothing but sheer force of spirit (Cha) could do anything against that.

Of course, then Wis becomes the universal dump stat. Maybe you could tie Initiative to it (Ao knows Dexterity won't be crippled by the loss, and perception makes more sense for that anyway).

Woot Spitum
2007-01-22, 10:46 PM
I've always thought of charisma and wisdom to be two opposed forces, with charisma being offensive, in that it measures your ability to sway and affect the minds of others, while wisdom is defensive, in that it measures your ability to resist the efforts of others to sway and affect your own mind.

TempusCCK
2007-01-22, 10:51 PM
Theres an easy solution here, just houserule when and where you think that CHA should be substituted for WIS for the Will Save, it's actually quite a simple and accepted practice if you read through the PHB.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-01-22, 11:00 PM
The way that makes the most sense to me is to compare the Mental and Physical stats like this:
Int = Dex - Quickness
Wis = Con - Incoming
Cha = Str - Outgoing

Under this way of looking at it, Wisdom makes sense for will saves, since it measures how well you handle the outside world's effects on your mind; Charisma is your mind affecting the outside world.

daggaz
2007-01-22, 11:10 PM
No way. Charisma, by the very definiton of the word, is the way you effect others, whether thru personality or just gross appearances, or a combination thereof. It is outward reaching, hence the original (and totally correct) definiton of FORCE of PERSONALITY. Anything else is typical PrC mungling of rules, mostly for the sake of powergaming. IE: switching one stat for the other.Wisdom, on the other hand, is not just an awareness of your surroundings, but a deep and fundamental sense of both one's self, as well as the subtle underlying workings of the universe around you. This is why they know the answers, though they might not know how or why that is the answer.When somebody makes some attack on your mind, be it illusion or real, it isn't going to be your boyish charm or your way with words or your dashing good looks or even your uncanny knack of convincing people you are right (often tied closely in with a good wisdom skill) that keeps your mind from being shattered. It will be your inner conviction of the truth, of what is right and wrong, the rock of your soul from which your draw your inner strength, which keeps you from crumbling. I can think of more than enough RL examples of people with incredible charisma who basically have 0 to 3 wisdom scores, who wouldn't stand a chance against a serious mental assault, be it real or DnD spell-like. Think about it. This is the guy at high school who is about dumb as a turd, and yet, is the popular guy and everybody just follows along with whatever he says. At least, the ones who were also at the end of the line when they were handing out wisdom points.

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-22, 11:21 PM
I am introverted, and not a social person. I have been known not to move for hours, not seeing hearing or feeling anything because I have been so deep in thought. I am not particularly wise, but I pride myself on my ability to learn. However, I have an incredible force of will. It is the only reason I am still here typing this- I had depression, and the only reason I didn't kill myself is that I have an incredible willpower. People have told me my personality is incredibly strong- people have been known too run when I glare at them. So I believe willpower is linked to force of personality. Even with illusions- force of personality is reliable for how much you are willing to be decieved.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-22, 11:38 PM
Charisma in D&D is not personality, it's how your personality affects others. Personality, is determined by ALL attributes, mental and even physical. After all, strength can be a large part of your personality and how you relate to people, but that doesn't mean strength is your personality. You could even argue that a character's highest ability score strongly affects their personality (con=tough and independent, int=logical and calculated etc.). But ultimately it's how they all fit together, plus your character's own unique traits and background that make up your personality (in the game, at least).

Stephen_E
2007-01-22, 11:38 PM
CHA makes more sense than WIS to some will saves, against enchantments and divinations, but WIS still makes more sense (to me) than CHA when making saves against illusion effects, since wisdom includes perception. If it were to be changed, I'd think that the current Will Save needs to be separated.

Re: Illusion. The problem is that Illusion is very poorly handled in DnD. Basically there are two features to illusions. Perceiving that there is an Illusion there, and convincing your mind to ignore it senses and go with logic. DnD recognises that these are different, and then bundles them into one anyway.

Logically you should have to make some sort of spot check to notice clues that it's an illusion, and then a Will power check (force of will = Cha) to ignore it. DnD says you only get to make a save if you have some reason for noticing something wrong, and that allows you to make a save to identify it as an illusion, which then means it mostly ceases to exist.

In Short - If you think it's an illusion, you get to make a save to know it's an illusion, at which point it mostly goes away.:smallconfused:

Stephen

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-22, 11:43 PM
Woot: I personally think that yes, all stats and alignments make up your personality, but charisma in DnD determines how strong it is.

daggaz
2007-01-22, 11:44 PM
No offense shadow, but sounds to me like your charisma is being strongly bolstered by an incredibly strong sense of self.I spent years fighting depression, I wont go into details but the last four years of my life were utterly ruined and I spent more than a month on a psych ward. Now I have a very strong charisma, but I have to admit, my influence on others was strongly affected in a negative way when I was in my down-and-outs. Still, I made friends during the times, but they invariably said that it wasnt just my personality, but something about me which said to them I was capable of much much more which they were always drawn to. That something was my sense of self, my inner force, and it was this wisdom of things which kept me from doing the unthinkable in my darkest hours. Think about it. When you were lying in your bed alone at night, thinking the unthinkable (and probably repeatedly), was it your abilities and influence with others that kept you going, or was it something else, some sense of right and wrong which gave you the strength and the courage to fight back? Something entirely personal, which you probably have never fully shared with another person in your life? Touching the thing I am talking about, that is wisdom. That is a sense of one's true self.

storybookknight
2007-01-22, 11:58 PM
There's a feat in...CAdv, I think, that lets you swap your WIS for your CHA when determining will saves. I often give it to Bards if I think they're going up against dangerous and influential magical forces.

And in fact this is the Force of Personality feat, which does not give you that bonus on saves vs. illusions! Wizards, apparently, agrees with this thread!

I think the in-game logic is that it requires training your personality to be able to resist mind-affecting effects... which makes as much sense as anything else in this game does.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-23, 01:24 AM
....they invariably said that it wasnt just my personality, but something about me which said to them I was capable of much much more which they were always drawn to. That something was my sense of self, my inner force, and it was this wisdom of things which kept me from doing the unthinkable in my darkest hours. [...] ...Something entirely personal, which you probably have never fully shared with another person in your life? Touching the thing I am talking about, that is wisdom. That is a sense of one's true self.

See, we're arguing semantics here. Some people would take the very thing you're describing and say that in D&D terms (tho certainly not in a typical definition) this sort of thing is how high your CHA stat is.

Some would not. A lot of people seem to get confused by the fact that what these words mean in a casual conversation and what they mean in D&D are not necessarily the same.

I look at the Wisdom stat's PRIMARY aspect (in D&D) as being perception, both physical and mental -- be it the perception to notice someone hiding in the shadows, or the perception to notice that the honey-tongued bard is lying to you. The monk's AC bonus I see as coming from his nigh-inhuman perception and intuition.

Of course, in real life, I would define "wisdom" an entirely different way. In real life, daggaz, your definition could arguably be used. But looking at the way the D&D mechanics work, "perception" seems to be largely how the stat is defined in D&D.

But then, I still vote for Wisdom as the most confused stat in D&D.

***

My opinion on the actual suggestion (Cha to will saves, and the addition of Wis to initiative) is that it could work, and it can be justified, and if WotC had done it from the start no one would question it. But most players are so used to the old way that they have a preconceived notion that it should be that way, and it'll be hard to convince them otherwise. The more I hear of it, though, the more sense it makes to me.

d12
2007-01-23, 01:25 AM
Under this way of looking at it, Wisdom makes sense for will saves, since it measures how well you handle the outside world's effects on your mind; Charisma is your mind affecting the outside world.

I tend to look at it that way as well. I can see how disagreements over whether Wisdom or Charisma should be used for Will saves get started, since to an extent the two attributes try to model the same thing (and the Monster Manual even says that you can't have one without the other in the section on nonabilities). The best analogy for my take on it is something that came up in a conversation I was having with a friend a while ago. Wisdom and Charisma are both measures of the strength of ones mind. Wisdom models how the mind handles input, and Charisma models output (he's an electrical engineer by education, and we both like to think of ourselves as computer-knowledgeable, so we both tend to think like that). A Will save represents someone's ability to recognize that there's an external force attempting to influence their mind and either see through it, ignore it, or overcome it. It's a way of filtering input in that regard. Will saves generally wouldn't seem to involve attempting to project ones will to the outside world; it's internalized. That being said, I could possibly see allowing someone with a high Charisma to get some kind of bonus to Will saves on effects that could change the way they regard others (such as through Charm Person), be it through a feat or house rule of some kind.

I'm honestly flummoxed with things I read now and then about people trying to remap things to Charisma and talking about bizarre house rules that hand out arbitrary punishment to characters that don't have a high Cha. A lot of classes just have a lot of better things to be spending their rolls/points on. I don't complain when the casters dump Strength in favor of more Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence. What's the big deal if a fighter dumps Cha for more Strength?

Shadow of the Sun
2007-01-23, 01:28 AM
Generally, it was a combination of spite and strong sense of self I suppose. Spite in the fact that I want to live as long as possible just so I can, in my last moments, flip the bird at the universe and sense of self in that I just fought it based on the fact that there was stuff I still wanted to do, stuff about myself I wanted to find.

Ramza00
2007-01-23, 01:29 AM
I agree with the other people said about will is strength of will, while charisma is the power to change someone/affect your enviroment.

Shazzbaa
2007-01-23, 01:34 AM
I don't complain when the casters dump Strength in favor of more Charisma, Wisdom, or Intelligence. What's the big deal if a fighter dumps Cha for more Strength?

The idea behind this is that when a caster dumps strenght, he does suffer for it. There are things STR is used for (Carrying Capacity, as an easy one) that you need STR for regardless of what class you're playing. Same for every other stat -- except CHA. There's no mechanical disadvantage to dumping CHA.

It's not that I'd want to punish someone for taking a low CHA -- I enjoy playing low CHA characters a great deal. :smallbiggrin: But when I do, I expect it to be a weakness; and for many parties, what with having a party face and all, it never ends up being such. A low STR is a weakness -- rarely comes up, for some classes, but it is a weakness nonetheless. A low WIS is a weakness when you start failing will saves. I'm of the opinion that a low CHA should also be a weakness, even if it doesn't come up much.

Those who are putting CHA onto different saves and the like as you describe are trying to make it some kind of mechanical weakness, rather than an arbitrary "people don't like you."

d12
2007-01-23, 02:36 AM
Well, strictly speaking there are mechanical weaknesses to dumping Charisma, it's just that a lot of them are things outside of combat, and D&D is usually (in my experience anyway) a very combat-heavy game. You're not as good at gathering information, lying, or trying to get people to see things your way through means that don't involve pointy pieces of metal or making things suddenly explode. Now, I don't tend to get a lot out of social things like that, so in effect the penalties for me dumping Cha aren't really that great, and I'm also fortunate in that there's usually someone who wants to be a "face" character so that I don't have to worry about the DM throwing in some loony doesn't-involve-killing-things encounter. :smalltongue: And if your playing style happens to match up with your choice of dumpstat, then so much the better. If the game were to take a much more socially-oriented intrigue/political/spy-vs-spy turn I would likely find myself at a disadvantage if I suddenly needed those skills. I also would likely have left the game once it became apparent, because I don't play D&D for that kind of thing and such a game obviously just isn't for me.

If you're talking more about weaknesses for dumping Cha that involve combat, then sure, I can't really think of a lot of ways that would hurt someone who doesn't have class abilities that are derived from Cha. I just don't see why that necessitates forcing some kind of penalty through odd rules that at times seem to strain credibility. How about dreaming up ways to have Cha help someone in combat rather than dreaming up ways to punish people for not having Cha? Not too long ago I was in another Charisma-related thread where I posted a couple of ideas for ways Charisma could help people out in combat. Not hard-set rules mind you, just ideas that just came to mind at the time--and I'm not really known for being a Charisma-sympathetic guy, so I can't imagine it being that hard for someone who's genuinely interested in improving Cha's viability.

PS - Sorry if this counts as threadjacking. ^_^

Darkshade
2007-01-23, 02:55 AM
why not some kind of prestige calss that lets you add your cha bonus to damage with a light weapon as long as you make some kind of quip or insult about your opponent? :P

Dan_Hemmens
2007-01-23, 05:06 AM
CHA instead of WIS to Will saves fits, because the CHA stat is more the force of your personality, and not how socially graceful you are. Even the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha) says about CHA: "This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting."

This proves one or all of three things.

1) Charisma represents the strength of your personality, and should therefore be used for Will saves.

2) The stat descriptions in the SRD were made up late at night by overworked game designers who couldn't think of a good way to describe Charisma, and are basically meaningless.

3) The phrase "strength of personality" is so poorly defined they might as well have just said "your character's Charisma score determines how Charismatic they are, as well as how good their Charisma is." and had done with it.

Pirata
2007-01-23, 08:38 AM
Wisdom is not only "perception". Wisdom also dictates your resolve, you force of will so to speak. That's why it's the divine casting stat. The cleric doesn't cast spells through his perception, he cast spells though his pure faith on his god/cause and force of will.

While charisma is your force of personality, it really means how well you can influence other minds, it's the strength of mind. As wisdom is the exactly the opposite, is how well you can resist outside influence over your own beliefs and reasoning, it's the constitution of mind.

The fact is, it's not charisma that's a weak stat mechanically, it's wisdom it is too powerful. Wisdom is two stats into one, your perception and the resistance of your mind (sanity, resolve, force of will) while charisma is just one, and that doesn't come up very much in a combat oriented game.

However a feat that replaces wisdom for charisma for will saves makes sense fluffing it as, instead of resisting or avoiding the harmful effect you confront it directly crushing it with pure strength of mind and the force of your own personality. Should be even a bonus feat for bards!

One common house rule in my group is that ALL mind affecting effects, enchantments, illusions, divinations, and other similar powers/spells/supernatural abilities have their DCs based on charisma, doesn't matter your casting stat.

It still makes charisma the easy dumping stat for melee types though. But that's not really a problem that desperately need fix in my opinion, there are other things much more urgent.

Matthew
2007-01-23, 12:38 PM
Use variable Attribute Bonuses for Saving Throws.

Reflex - Dexterity or Intelligence
Willpower - Wisdom or Charisma
Fortitude - Strength or Constitution

Only the highest modifier and lowest penalty applies in each case

i.e.

Dexterity Bonus -1 and Intelligence Bonus +1 = +0 Bonus
Detxerity Bonus -1 and Intelligence Bonus -1 = -1 Bonus
Dexterity Bonus +1 and Intelligence Bonus +1 = +1

This approach has worked out well for me.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-23, 03:47 PM
why not some kind of prestige calss that lets you add your cha bonus to damage with a light weapon as long as you make some kind of quip or insult about your opponent? :P

That doesn't change anything, though: There are already lots of classes that require decent Cha. The problem is that it's only those classes. Everyone else can dump Cha to the bottom of the Meriandas Trench and suffer absolutely nothing except for a nebulous "people don't like you" (which is why the bard does all the talking for you) and maybe some obscure thing like ego whip taking them down.


However a feat that replaces wisdom for charisma for will saves makes sense fluffing it as, instead of resisting or avoiding the harmful effect you confront it directly crushing it with pure strength of mind and the force of your own personality. Should be even a bonus feat for bards!

Again, though, you're forcing people to expend a feat. Wisdom is still better than Charisma. Also, Charisma can still be dumped without penalty since nobody will take that feat unless they're already using Charisma for something.

---

Also, one other thing to support Willpower=Charisma is the Ghost's Rejuvination special ability. In order to return from destruction, the Ghost must make a Charisma check. Traditionally, Ghosts remain in the mortal world through sheer force of will to complete whatever it was they left unfinished. A Ghost could have the Wisdom score of Paris Hilton, but it would still be able to force itself back into unlife somehow. Conversely, the wisest Cleric in the world won't come back as a Ghost if he's dumped Charisma, indicating that for some reason he can't force himself into the Prime Material despite his high Wisdom.

Fhaolan
2007-01-23, 03:52 PM
I've always thought that Int, Wis, and Cha attributes were set up a bit oddly. Here's my take on it: There are two sets of attributes, one set is physical, the other set is mental.

The physical set:
Strength (physical strength)
Constitution (physical resilience)
Dexterity (physical agility)

The mental set:
Inteligence (mental agility, as defined as learning speed, reasoning, etc.)
Wisdom (mental resilience, as defined as willpower, common sense, etc.)
Charisma (strength of personality, as defined as the ability to influence others, presence, etc.)

Physical beauty doesn't fit into this model, of course, and I'm inclined to just label it a 'special effect' as it's so variable based on race and culture.

The reason why I did this redefinition was because the last time I had to deal with Astral plane stuff (must have been 2nd edition), my DM ruled that your physical abilities were replaced by your mental abilities while on the Astral plane (as that plane's physics was based on your own willpower and the like). We argued back and forth about how to map the two mental stats (Int, Wis) to the three physical stats (Str, Con, Dex), until we decided we had to do *something* with Cha. So, we redefined the mental stats and dropped the physical component of Cha.

Ever since then I've found the new mental definitions cleaner, and easier to explain to new players. There's a couple of spots where the new definitions confuse the 3.x ruleset, but we haven't found anything too jarring yet.

Vance_Nevada
2007-01-23, 04:11 PM
I don't really care about the fluff of whether it's a good idea, so I'll ignore that for the moment. The problem with changing Will Saves to charisma is that it just shifts the problem from CHA to WIS instead. Anyone that isn't a WIS based caster can drop Wisdom and boost Charisma now instead. The only penalty they pay for it is a minus to some Wis based skills. Annoying, but no more serious a problem than the penalty to Cha based skills you already pay.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-23, 04:14 PM
I've always thought that Int, Wis, and Cha attributes were set up a bit oddly. Here's my take on it: There are two sets of attributes, one set is physical, the other set is mental.

The physical set:
Strength (physical strength)
Constitution (physical resilience)
Dexterity (physical agility)

The mental set:
Inteligence (mental agility, as defined as learning speed, reasoning, etc.)
Wisdom (mental resilience, as defined as willpower, common sense, etc.)
Charisma (strength of personality, as defined as the ability to influence others, presence, etc.)

Physical beauty doesn't fit into this model, of course, and I'm inclined to just label it a 'special effect' as it's so variable based on race and culture.

The reason why I did this redefinition was because the last time I had to deal with Astral plane stuff (must have been 2nd edition), my DM ruled that your physical abilities were replaced by your mental abilities while on the Astral plane (as that plane's physics was based on your own willpower and the like). We argued back and forth about how to map the two mental stats (Int, Wis) to the three physical stats (Str, Con, Dex), until we decided we had to do *something* with Cha. So, we redefined the mental stats and dropped the physical component of Cha.

Ever since then I've found the new mental definitions cleaner, and easier to explain to new players. There's a couple of spots where the new definitions confuse the 3.x ruleset, but we haven't found anything too jarring yet.

Where you have Str->Cha, Dex->Int and Con->Wis, I see it more as Str->Int, Dex->Wis, and Con->Cha.

Str/Int is your sheer power (either physical or mental), while your Dex/Wis is your finesse (again, physical or mental), and your Con/Cha is your resilience. Rationale on the Con/Cha: People with strong personalities stand up to mental abuse more than those with weak personalities due to higher sense of self.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-23, 04:47 PM
I don't really care about the fluff of whether it's a good idea, so I'll ignore that for the moment. The problem with changing Will Saves to charisma is that it just shifts the problem from CHA to WIS instead. Anyone that isn't a WIS based caster can drop Wisdom and boost Charisma now instead. The only penalty they pay for it is a minus to some Wis based skills. Annoying, but no more serious a problem than the penalty to Cha based skills you already pay.

Which is why we've earlier suggested moving Initiative to Wisdom (the ability to perceive things quickly and sort through them efficiently is what matters in chaotic situations, and Dexterity certainly won't be crippled for the loss).

Helgraf
2007-01-23, 04:57 PM
Also, one other thing to support Willpower=Charisma is the Ghost's Rejuvination special ability. In order to return from destruction, the Ghost must make a Charisma check. Traditionally, Ghosts remain in the mortal world through sheer force of will to complete whatever it was they left unfinished. A Ghost could have the Wisdom score of Paris Hilton, but it would still be able to force itself back into unlife somehow. Conversely, the wisest Cleric in the world won't come back as a Ghost if he's dumped Charisma, indicating that for some reason he can't force himself into the Prime Material despite his high Wisdom.

Except the reason for that is simply because stat based special abilities are normally Con based and anything that doesn't use Con because it has a - in that stat uses Cha instead. It uses its force of personality - it's ability to shape outward reality through Cha, in much the same way Charisma shapes the opinion of others when you apply it to them (via the social skills).

Wisdom is internal; insight that permits easier drawing upon divine grace (in the form of spells), willpower that resists attempts to change your fundamental nonphysical self (as evidenced by its tie to Will saves), and a certain depth of understanding your perceptions (which is why it connects to Spot/Listen; recognition of sounds out of the ordinary, whereas Search is Int based.)

To come up with a simple allusion: Wisdom as the shield, and Charisma as the sword; the shield's primary purpose is fortification and protection of the self-concept; the sword's primary purpose is, crudely put, to put your will upon others - to sway, guide, or bully them to that end you desire; to guide their self-concept to be in union with yours, or at least put them in a position where they do what you want out of self-preservation, whether literal (Intimidate), or positional (blackmail).

The two are intrinsically linked; both are required for awareness (which is why anything with a Wis of -- would also have a Cha of -- and vice versa; and would also be an object), but they serve different purposes.

TimeWizard
2007-01-23, 05:22 PM
I can see where you'd get the motivation, but i have trouble seeing charisma based saves. The big notion is people with high CHA are more sure of themselves, which is something of having great social skills. But wisdom is wordly knowledge, by it's very nature it's hard to come by and can only be made by mistakes. If you envision to polar opposites of wisdom and charisma, a wise wo/man has seen it all before and is less likely to be swayed by charismatic people, where a charismatic but wisdomless person could very well be a dumb movie star- not very well equipped to deal with people pulling a fast one on her/him.

Crunchwise i'd never allow it because will saves are the only direct feature of wisdom. Charisma doesn't have any but it has many more associated skills, which would make wisdom essentially worthless.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-23, 05:25 PM
Crunchwise i'd never allow it because will saves are the only direct feature of wisdom. Charisma doesn't have any but it has many more associated skills, which would make wisdom essentially worthless.

Wisdom's skills are more universally useful than Charisma's party-face/bardlike skill bent.

Fhaolan
2007-01-23, 05:29 PM
Where you have Str->Cha, Dex->Int and Con->Wis, I see it more as Str->Int, Dex->Wis, and Con->Cha.

Str/Int is your sheer power (either physical or mental), while your Dex/Wis is your finesse (again, physical or mental), and your Con/Cha is your resilience. Rationale on the Con/Cha: People with strong personalities stand up to mental abuse more than those with weak personalities due to higher sense of self.

I prefer my version, more from habit than anything. :smallsmile:

My point is really that D&D's system doesn't map the mental abilities to the physical abilities innately, you have to force it. D&D's system has a lot cleaner definitions of the three physical abilities than the two mental abilities, plus the Cha 'hanger on' with aspects of both physical and mental. The mental ability definitions are muddy enough that Int, Wis, *and* Cha could all be a part of Willpower depending on how you read them. And it's been that way since the abilites were first written up in old-time D&D.

To me, it doesn't matter if Wis is willpower, or Cha is willpower, as long as one is chosen and the effects are made consistent throughout the ruleset.

In my opinion, one mental stat should be used to do 'damage' (like the physical Strength does). This would be the stat used for mental/social/personality-based 'attacks', such as imposing your will on others, influence their opinions, etc.

One mental stat should be used for active 'defence' (like the physical Dexterity does). This would be the stat that would modify whether you could 'dodge' a mental attack. It's not that your resisting the attack, more avoiding it with mental gymnastics.

And finally one mental stat should be used for passive 'resilience' (like the physical Constitution does). This would be the stat that would measure how much mental/social/personality damage you can take before collapsing or giving in.

What label is put on those mental stats, doesn't really matter to me. I'd just like to see a more consistent application of those definitions throughout the ruleset.:smallsmile:

Mewtarthio
2007-01-23, 05:33 PM
Wisdom is internal; insight that permits easier drawing upon divine grace (in the form of spells), willpower that resists attempts to change your fundamental nonphysical self (as evidenced by its tie to Will saves)

That seems a little circular to me. Will save should be tied to Wisdom because Wisdom represents Willpower, as evidence by its tie to Will saves?


To come up with a simple allusion: Wisdom as the shield, and Charisma as the sword; the shield's primary purpose is fortification and protection of the self-concept; the sword's primary purpose is, crudely put, to put your will upon others - to sway, guide, or bully them to that end you desire; to guide their self-concept to be in union with yours, or at least put them in a position where they do what you want out of self-preservation, whether literal (Intimidate), or positional (blackmail).

The two are intrinsically linked; both are required for awareness (which is why anything with a Wis of -- would also have a Cha of -- and vice versa; and would also be an object), but they serve different purposes.

That's a very nice metaphor (incidentally, an "allusion" is a reference to another work), but crunch-wise it doesn't make Charisma any less worthless. The definitions of Wisdom and Charisma are nebulous at best, and I believe they should be interpreted in a manner that allows both to be useful (at least useful enough to make people think twice before dumping either). In the case of Charisma, it seems reasonable to assume that a person with a strong sense of self would be Charismatic and would also be able to resist enchantments. In the case of Wisdom, it doesn't matter how fast you are physically, reacting to external situations requires the ability to percieve and process information quickly, which is why I think Initiative should be a Wisdom check.

Jade_Tarem
2007-01-23, 05:38 PM
For balancing charisma, I like that one suggestion for the "initial reaction" chart that determines how helpful NPC's initially are to you. It's sort of an auto-leadership for people with really high charisma - it even makes sense in-game that people would be drawn to the exotic and powerful sorcerer and may not even notice the wizard, or that a really skilled and talented bard would be extremely well-known and popular. I'm seriously considering house-ruling that effect into my games.

Matthew
2007-01-23, 05:55 PM
Yeah, that's also a good idea.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-23, 06:05 PM
Where is this initial reaction chart of which you speak?

Pesonally, I like the suggestion that Wisdom be moved to intiative(how would one make the case for better coordination=better initiative) and move Cha into will save. one problem, it increases MAD, and there fore would be generally more beneficial to Monsters rather that PC.