Need-to-Know Info on Swordsage, Disciplines, & Maneuvers!

[CrazyYanmega]

Hello again, Giants! This will be my second attempt at posting this thread, as my browser keeps dying and won't save my work.

In short, I need help with understanding Disciplines.

Today's test subject is my Aasimar Swordsage, who is focused in the Diamond Mind Discipline. Now, my first question is this: What exactly does this mean? Is it like a Wizard, where I can focus on one Discipline while abstaining from another? Or am I absolutely restricted to Diamond Mind Maneuvers until higher levels?

The Maneuvers I've chosen at Level 2 are (here is where I ask forgiveness: I tried to link each maneuver individually, but for some reason repeatedly opening and closing windows kills my computer): Burning Blade, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Stone Bones, Counter Charge, Moment of Perfect Mind, Shadow Blade Technique, and Clinging Shadow Strike. The Stances I've chosen are Stance of Clarity for 1v1 combat, and Island of Blades for crowd control.

On the subject of maneuvers, I would like to ask here what the heck (3 Diamond Mind Maneuvers) means in some of the Maneuver Levels? Does it mean that's the number of extra Maneuvers it costs to have the Maneuver readied? Can only Diamond Mind specialists use it?

If you have any other tips on how to use a Swordsage, please feel free to let loose. Everything I know about the Swordsage comes from this webpage (http://dndtools.eu/classes/swordsage/). I have a ToB on the way from the library, but it looks like it is going to take a while to get to me.

EDIT: Also, how do Boosts stack with Strikes? Can they stack? If not, I may have to apologize to my DM...

[Azoth]

Specializing in Diamond Mind means that is where you will focus on learning your new maneuvers and stances from. It doesn't prohibit you from learning other disciplines (that are available to the swordsage) maneuvers or stances.

3 diamond mind maneuvers is reference to how many maneuvers from that discipline you must know before learning that maneuver. Stances also count as maneuvers known for this purpose. They are just prerequisites for learning a new maneuver. In no way do they reflect a cost for redying a maneuver.

You can ready any maneuver you know and qualify for regarless of its level.

I will personally recommend taking a look at shadow hand for some great utility maneuvers (shadow stride, jaunt, blink I am looking at you).

There is also an understood feat tax to playing a swordsage known as Adaptive Style. It makes the swordsage's recovery mechanic tollerable.

[Eldaran]

What exactly does this mean? Is it like a Wizard, where I can focus on one Discipline while abstaining from another? Or am I absolutely restricted to Diamond Mind Maneuvers until higher levels?

No and no. You just gain the benefits listed under Discipline Focus.


I would like to ask here what the heck (3 Diamond Mind Maneuvers) means in some of the Maneuver Levels? Does it mean that's the number of extra Maneuvers it costs to have the Maneuver readied? Can only Diamond Mind specialists use it?

It means you need 3 maneuvers of the same school before you can take it. They're just prerequisites and nothing else.


I have a ToB on the way from the library, but it looks like it is going to take a while to get to me.

Unfortunately without the book you're going to be missing a lot on how things work.



EDIT: Also, how do Boosts stack with Strikes? Can they stack? If not, I may have to apologize to my DM...

Yes, boosts are swift actions so you can activate them before a strike, and any relevant effects should stack.

[avr]

If you take a look at, say Emerald Razor (Diamond Mind 2) the Prerequisite: line reads "One Diamond Mind maneuver". This means you have to have at least one other Diamond Mind maneuver known before you can learn it, and being 2nd level you need to have an initiator level of 3 - assuming you don't multiclass that means you need to be a 3rd level swordsage to learn it.

The Discipline Focus ability of the swordsage doesn't limit which maneuvers you can learn in any way. The benefits are as listed - at this level that means you have a free Weapon Focus feat in the weapons linked to one discipline. You don't have to use those weapons to use maneuvers from that discipline. The link only matters for a few class features and feats.

Boosts and strikes absolutely do stack, assuming you've got the actions available to use both.

[CrazyYanmega]

I will personally recommend taking a look at shadow hand for some great utility maneuvers (shadow stride, jaunt, blink I am looking at you).

There is also an understood feat tax to playing a swordsage known as Adaptive Style. It makes the swordsage's recovery mechanic tollerable.

Hmm, from what you seem to be implying is that Adaptive Style (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/adaptive-style--36/) would completely recharge my maneuvers for the encounter in addition to letting me change them on the fly. I thought the feat only let me rearrange my current unexpended maneuvers.

[OldTrees1]

Hmm, from what you seem to be implying is that Adaptive Style (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/adaptive-style--36/) would completely recharge my maneuvers for the encounter in addition to letting me change them on the fly. I thought the feat only let me rearrange my current unexpended maneuvers.

The common opinion is that Adaptive Style completely refreshes your maneuvers.

[CrazyYanmega]

The common opinion is that Adaptive Style completely refreshes your maneuvers.

Thank you.

Now, I need some info before the game starts: How do maneuvers interact with incorporeal enemies like ghosts? The party is about to enter a haunted pirate cove or something, and we don't have Ghost-touch weapons. The only "Magic" weapon is the Soulknife's mind blade.

Would boosting help with trying to hit them?

[Deophaun]

Would boosting help with trying to hit them?
Most maneuvers are (EX), and so wouldn't help you affect incorporeal creatures. However, some Swordsage maneuvers do include the disclaimer "this is a supernatural effect," and damage done through that would have the standard 50% chance to affect incorporeal creatures.

[avr]

Most maneuvers are (EX), and so wouldn't help you affect incorporeal creatures. However, some Swordsage maneuvers do include the disclaimer "this is a supernatural effect," and damage done through that would have the standard 50% chance to affect incorporeal creatures.
Of those in the OP, shadow blade technique, clinging shadow strike, and burning blade (additional fire damage only) are supernatural effects.

[CrazyYanmega]

Sudden question: Do my stances work when I'm unconscious?

[gorfnab]

Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531) Handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259783)

[avr]

Sudden question: Do my stances work when I'm unconscious?
By RAW? Probably yes. There's no action required to maintain them. IMO? No, no way. Your 'stance' when you're unconscious is not under your control.

[Particle_Man]

"Your stance ends if you are rendered helpless for any reason" p.43, I assume unconscious would count as helpless.

[Zweisteine]

All it means to focus on Diamond Mind is that you primarily choose maneuvers from thr discipline. You'll need to choose a certain number to meet prerequisites for higher-level maneuvers, so you can't really do much in more than two disciplines. Also, don't forget that you can refrain maneuvers, and that Ben prerequisite maneuvers can be retrained, if you still meet the prerequisite after you learn the new maneuver.

[Particle_Man]

Also, stances count when you "count up" prerequisite numbers, which takes the pressure off a lot. A Swordsage should be able to maintain strong flavours of 3 disciplines. Heck, if you are careful and use those feats I mentioned earlier, I think you can end up with 6 level 9 maneuvers by level 20 as a single class swordsage! ;)

Also, some high level maneuvers don't have prerequisites, so watch out for those if you want to "spice up" your build.

[Shining Wrath]

The common opinion is that Adaptive Style completely refreshes your maneuvers.

I've seen this debated but I can't understand why. The RAW is pretty clear: you have a whole bunch of maneuvers ready to use, as though you chose them all and entered combat.


Also, stances count when you "count up" prerequisite numbers, which takes the pressure off a lot. A Swordsage should be able to maintain strong flavours of 3 disciplines. Heck, if you are careful and use those feats I mentioned earlier, I think you can end up with 6 level 9 maneuvers by level 20 as a single class swordsage! ;)

Also, some high level maneuvers don't have prerequisites, so watch out for those if you want to "spice up" your build.

Most famously, the 9th level Stone Dragon maneuver Mountain Tombstone Strike, which is quite tasty. I think when I ranked the 9th level maneuvers that one came out 2nd or 3rd; obviously, all maneuvers pale before Time Stands Still.

[OldTrees1]

I've seen this debated but I can't understand why. The RAW is pretty clear: you have a whole bunch of maneuvers ready to use, as though you chose them all and entered combat.

The RAW is less clear when you realize that expended maneuvers are not readied maneuvers. Then the question becomes "Does the feat mean the numbers of maneuvers I ready per encounter or the number of readied maneuvers I have now?"

The confusion is increased by the large gap between Swordsage's default recovery and the common interpretation of Adaptive Style recovery. (Full round action for 1 maneuver vs Full round action for all 4-12 maneuvers?)

The confusion is further increased when considering the general quality of the Tome of Battle. A feat tax is very bad game design and seems out of place in a good-high quailty splatbook.

In the end the stronger interpretation is still the common one, but maybe this will explain why it is not the only interpretation.