Gargamel and other Smurf Villains

[Spore]

Greetings,

I was curious what your thoughts are on other classical villains, heroes and characters other than Tolkien (because god knows that has been to death and back again already).

I was watching some old episodes of the smurfs and was intrigued by the fact that not only is Gargamel dubbed both sorcerer AND wizard in the show he also isn't able to cast spells consistently. Most of the times he needs material components or nabs a wand, an amulet or something other that grants spells. But he also is able to pull off some creative spells.

He doesn't fit the wise and planful Wizard very well because he sometimes has just very very stupid plans. He wants to eat them despite those plans make him more miserable. Later on at least he wants to create gold but his plans are not very thought through and more or less spontaneous.

He also doesn't fit a more spontaneous and charismatic Sorcerer because he simply cannot cast spells without material components, nor does he appear very likeable. In fact its one of his characteristics to be ugly both in person and appearance and he can't for the life of him convince other evil villains to help him if he has no circumstance bonus of that goal being theirs as well.

Maybe he even is a Cha 8 Sorcerer/Int 8 Wizard able to use many spell trigger items?

Other characters - like Balthasar or Hogatha - are clearer cut out. Both know spells without resorting to magical items, although this still is inconsistent. Sometimes they need an amulet, sometimes they don't. I am most certainly overinterpreting the cartoon but I would like your ideas about those villains (and heroes, although besides the smurfs, most protagonists likely are just creatures with racial HD).

I am not asking or talking about "Which class combinations with exact levels is character x or y but rather which tropes or class features would suggest which feature?

[Telonius]

He clearly has a familiar (Azrael), so he'd need a class that grants that. His poorly-thought-out plans suggest a really, really low Wisdom. He seems to be pretty good at using magical items, so maybe something with UMD as a class skill. He's constantly lying, so Bluff as well. He's great at unearthing random bits of information about magical items, though not so great at implementing it in a workable plan.

So ... while this might seem really counter-intuitive ... I'd go with Bard, using the Obtain Familiar feat to get Azrael. His low charisma would explain why he can't cast particularly well or consistently. Maybe a level or two in Factotum to get Arcane Dilettante?

[Eldan]

If we go outside of core, he could make a decent Artificer. He uses tons of items and potions and one could argue that artificial smurfs count as Homunculi, which literally translates as "small human".

[Gemini476]

If he's a Wild Mage, then the 1d6-3 caster level he gets means that he'll get negative caster level 1/3 of the time. I'm not entirely sure if it applies to this scenario in particular, but that might make him unable to cast some of his higher-level spells?

Alternatively, he runs on a skill-based system like Truenaming.

Spells that work each and every time without fail is very much a D&D thing. Even Harry Potter has them making mistakes sometimes, and its rather well-known for its generally effortless magic.

[Spore]

He clearly has a familiar (Azrael), so he'd need a class that grants that.

That's another thing that is quite odd. Most casters in that show have familiars. Hogatha has her vulture, Balthasar has his snakes, Chlorhydris has her Tucan. This really screams Wizard to me after all.

Balthasar seems quite competent but is clunky. He is what I would think of when intimidating sorcerer comes up. He can intimidate literally anyone into submission. His magical powers are vast and he has a castle surrounded with a lava pit where a dragon lives as his pet. You won't become more goth than that in a world where the heroes jump around in the woods dancing with woodland creatures and see their utopian communist community as the greatest thing of all.

How are you guys feeling about PF witches or druids however. Well, druids not so much, maybe in dips but pf witches fit some characters very well. Gargamel never fires a direct attack spell to my knowledge and several characters have spells that are normally on the cleric's spell list. Mainly Papa Smurf uses several divine spells, making me think he is more or less a druid rather than a straight wizard.

@ Telonius

I don't think he is spontaneous anymore. If you have seen the amount of episodes, no spontaneous caster has that many spells and still is as low level as Gargamel. I think he is a poorly trained wizard with familiar in a world where magic is few and far between. Most of his resources go into unearthing magical artifacts but I wonder why his DM hates him so much that he has very high WBL but doesn't gain EXP.

"No you didn't catch the smurfs. No EXP."

[Telonius]

Well, it has been about 20 years since I've seen any episodes ... :smallbiggrin:

[Scow2]

He's a wizard, and he IS somewhat intelligent - he just lacks wisdom. You have to be intelligent to be able to cast the spells and rituals he uses.

I think he's a Mid/high-level wizard... but without enough INT to cast spells above low level. And, he's better modeled by systems like GURPS or Ironclaw or Savage Worlds than D&D. D&D is terrible at modeling fictional spellcasters.

[Gemini476]

D&D is terrible at modeling fictional spellcasters.

Is that including the ones from D&D fiction?
I suspect so, given the official statblocks available.

[Aasimar]

I see him as a relatively low level adept, either getting Azrael as a companion without using a familiar mechanic, or getting him through a feat perhaps.

[Eldan]

He's a wizard, and he IS somewhat intelligent - he just lacks wisdom. You have to be intelligent to be able to cast the spells and rituals he uses.

I think he's a Mid/high-level wizard... but without enough INT to cast spells above low level. And, he's better modeled by systems like GURPS or Ironclaw or Savage Worlds than D&D. D&D is terrible at modeling fictional spellcasters.

Well, they sort of did that on purpose. They wanted something that was far away from real world mythology, magical traditions or esoterics.

[Particle_Man]

He probably has some sort of "headstrong" flaw. His cat effortlessly finds the smurfs, and Gargamel keeps saying "Come on, Azrael, stop lollygagging; we need to find the SMURFS!" and drags him along! Or maybe the cat has the flaw - being stuck with Azrael. :smallsmile:

That said, Gargamel can sometimes do impressive stuff. He created Smurfette!

Which actually makes me wonder - if he can just create smurfs, why doesn't he simply create as many as he needs for gold and food purposes?

[Gemini476]

Well, they sort of did that on purpose. They wanted something that was far away from real world mythology, magical traditions or esoterics.

Did they? I thought it was just Gygax liking Vance's books and stealing the system from them to use in the White Box. (Unless Vancian spellcasting was in Chainmail?)

The whole satanic panic came later, and the big white-washing was under Lorraine Williams in 2E.

[Spore]

Which actually makes me wonder - if he can just create smurfs, why doesn't he simply create as many as he needs for gold and food purposes?

I suppose his DM isn't lenient enough.

[zlefin]

One key difference is spell components. In smurfland, there's no spell component pouch which conveniently has all the components you need. Instead you have a decent stock of some things in a lab, but you often need to hunt around to find the components for a spell; and the list of spells you have access to is very large.

Also a lot of the people are terribly unoptimized; or papa smurf would just keep 5 of his best spells for defeating gargamel (without killing him ofc) on hand and prepared, and would keep the components for them well stocked.

[Spore]

One key difference is spell components. In smurfland, there's no spell component pouch which conveniently has all the components you need. Instead you have a decent stock of some things in a lab, but you often need to hunt around to find the components for a spell; and the list of spells you have access to is very large.

As much as I LOVE high magic settings, I would love for more spells to have non neglegible material components. Nothing ground breakingly expensive but just something you cannot buy on every street corner. Also more spell foci. Like a magic staff for Magic Missile, an angelic feather for prot. from evil or a hollowed out bomb for every usage of Fireball.

This would greatly benefit the players that prepare themselves and would dampen the harm done by 1-spell-problem solving from wizards and other T1 casters.

Geh, I really would LOVE to save the entire kingdom from that devil by banishing up but I can't find an azataic lyre to cast Banishment. Sorry.


Also a lot of the people are terribly unoptimized; or papa smurf would just keep 5 of his best spells for defeating gargamel (without killing him ofc) on hand and prepared, and would keep the components for them well stocked.

Do you recognize how easily they are caught EVERY DAMN TIME the G enters their village. I am tempted that they just don't bother to prepare spells in the morning and just fill their slots as they pick up their materials. This also makes sense in that they almost always have to go get their stuff from the lab (and because going there and grabbing an magical leaf isn't time consuming enough, they have to consult their tomes.

[Particle_Man]

The alternate font colours in this thread are smurfy. :smallsmile:

And didn't 1st ed. AD&D have spells with wacky components, and no conveniently filled spell component pouch?

[TuggyNE]

He also doesn't fit a more spontaneous and charismatic Sorcerer because he simply cannot cast spells without material components

What do material components have to do with anything? :smallconfused: (Or familiars, either; sorcerers are where the familiar class feature is defined, and wizard just refers to it.)

[Spore]

What do material components have to do with anything? :smallconfused: (Or familiars, either; sorcerers are where the familiar class feature is defined, and wizard just refers to it.)

Eschew Materials. Other arcane spellcasters in that world use spells without material components. I rest my case.

[TuggyNE]

Eschew Materials. Other arcane spellcasters in that world use spells without material components. I rest my case.

What about Eschew Materials? Sorcerers don't gain it as a bonus feat or anything, unless you're thinking of PF.

[Spore]

What about Eschew Materials? Sorcerers don't gain it as a bonus feat or anything, unless you're thinking of PF.

Was actually thinking about 3.5 sorcerers tbh. My memory has failed me.