Powerful Bard

[sjeshin]

So I was thinking about making a bard. No one in my group ever does. We get rogues and all the T1s with varying levels of OP, but never, ever, in a million games a bard. I want to make one that is individually powerful himself, in melee. I know a bard's big schtick is to be the party buffer, maybe knowledgable, and the party face. But I was reading a forgotten realms book... I know I know... But I just like the IDEA of a powerful bard singing killing songs as he cut down his enemies.

Strength or dexterity drivin is fine. I'd even be ok with something like stormsinger if it could be optimized to do lots of damage. I feel like their are probably guides / handbooks for this but my googlefu is weak today. Can anyone show me / point to / give a good example of a good stormsinger or a powerful melee build for a bard?

Edit: tome of battle is banned in every campaign we play. Also, if you can mention if "x word" is an item, feat, or class feature of x class and what it does it will help me understand better. I'm not familiar with a lot of things I'm seeing. Though some of you have pointed out some of what I'm asking for, some of them are just a name. Thanks again.

[prufock]

You're going to want to optimize Inspire Courage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8334.0), as well as Greatness and Heroics (to a lesser extent). Bards get some fantastic buff spells, and there are ways to get Charisma to a lot of things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). A one-level dip in Marshal rarely goes astray - for a battle-bard, focusing on Motivate Strength or Motivate Dexterity are probably your best bets. Snowflake Wardance, Slippers of Battledancing, Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade, Bow of Songs. These are things you should look into.

Also, Sublime Chord. It basically gives you sorcerer casting from level 11 to 20 if you're going that high. Better spells mean more power. Two levels is enough, though, followed with another prestige class that progresses that spellcasting. Virtuoso is a common one.

[Diarmuid]

Get yourself a crystal echoblade, have a decent str, 2-hand your weapon, and grab power attack. Inspirational Boost and/or Words of Creation to boost your Inspire Courage ability and then PA away all the bonuses to hit you're recieving and turn them into extra damage.

At 14th level Bard he was getting +8/+8 from IC (Inspirational Boost and Words of Creation), +7 damage from the echoblade, and then he would routinely turn +5 of the IC to-hit boost into PA for another +10 damage. That right there was 25 damage alone before taking into account the +1 for the weapon or the +1.5 strength bonus for 2-handing his weapon or any other bonuses.

Recently played through city of the spider queen and the bard was pretty good in Melee. No, it's not an ubercharging lance wielder but it was pretty darn effective.

[Deophaun]

Well, the question is what do you really care about? Do you care about the bard class itself, and want to show that a Bard 20 or Bard X/Bard PrC Y can hang with the best? Or do you just care about the image of a commander, cutting down his enemies and spurring his allies on to greater things? Because if it's the later, I recommend a Bardblade or Bardsader. Basically, it's three or four levels of bard, with the rest filled in by Warblade or Crusader from ToB. You take Song of the White Raven so that the levels of both classes stack for Inspire Courage, and the follow the IC optimization guide.

[sjeshin]

Well, the question is what do you really care about? Do you care about the bard class itself, and want to show that a Bard 20 or Bard X/Bard PrC Y can hang with the best? Or do you just care about the image of a commander, cutting down his enemies and spurring his allies on to greater things? Because if it's the later, I recommend a Bardblade or Bardsader. Basically, it's three or four levels of bard, with the rest filled in by Warblade or Crusader from ToB. You take Song of the White Raven so that the levels of both classes stack for Inspire Courage, and the follow the IC optimization guide.

I will edit it into my original post, I keep forgetting, tomb of battle is banned in our campaigns. That's my bad.

To answer your question though, I want a character who is a man singing warsongs that empower him (and his allies) and want all of the classes to have that feel or help him get to a prestige class that has that feel. I don't want to take a level in bard, then go fighter the rest of the way if that helps answer your question. A gritty, determined fighter singing songs of his enemies demise as he wades through battle, perhaps as a commander, but even in lone combat situations.

I would go the route you suggested though, because the feat makes it feel like those classes really still entertwine well, but again, tomb of battle isn't allowed.

[Deophaun]

To answer your question though, I want a character who is a man singing warsongs that empower him (and his allies) and want all of the classes to have that feel or help him get to a prestige class that has that feel. I don't want to take a level in bard, then go fighter the rest of the way if that helps answer your question. A gritty, determined fighter singing songs of his enemies demise as he wades through battle, perhaps as a commander, but even in lone combat situations.
A shame that ToB is banned, because a Crusader or Warblade focused on the White Raven discipline would be perfect.

Since Charisma is going to be a big deal, look to pick up the gauntlets of heartfelt blows (Dragon Compendium). +Cha fire damage on all melee attacks.

[sjeshin]

A shame that ToB is banned, because a Crusader or Warblade focused on the White Raven discipline would be perfect.

Since Charisma is going to be a big deal, look to pick up the gauntlets of heartfelt blows (Dragon Compendium). +Cha fire damage on all melee attacks.

I'm not super familiar with the bard class other than what is printed in the PHB, but if i'm mostly going for the self buffs, what role will CHA really play in making me more powerful?

[Deophaun]

I'm not super familiar with the bard class other than what is printed in the PHB, but if i'm mostly going for the self buffs, what role will CHA really play in making me more powerful?
As the X to Y stat page linked above shows, Charisma is a very versatile stat that can cover a lot of ground. Snowflake Wardance was mentioned above which puts Cha to attack rolls. You can dip a level of Battledancer (Dragon Compendium) for Cha to AC. Take two levels of Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcana variant) and you get Cha to saves. Bow of Songs and Slippers of Battledancing have already been mentioned.

Basically, all this stuff lets you use your force of personality as both weapon and shield.

[Rebel7284]

I'm not super familiar with the bard class other than what is printed in the PHB, but if i'm mostly going for the self buffs, what role will CHA really play in making me more powerful?

Snowflake Wardance + Slippers of Battledancing + the aforementioned gauntlets can add cha to hit/damage a bunch of times.

You also get reasonably good spells and charisma helps with getting more of those.

Also, more fuel for Arcane Strike!

[Socratov]

A melee bard huh, well, let's see is we can help you with that. First a good thing might be slippers of battle dancing. Then you will want to pick up Snowflake wardance and you will want to look into (as said before) optimising Inspire courage. But, there is more. You will want a nice one handed weapon (so you can still cast and blow your horn[optimised for DFI]).

Now if you have a nice DM you can ask if an elf could treat an elven thinblade (complete warrior) or elven courtblade (dragon mag) as an elvish rapier because they are elves. If you can't, be a silverbrow human, wield a rapier and go to town. if you can however, take forestlord elf, wield an elven thinblade (it's an elvish rapier! With Longsword damage! Yay!). Now you can choose to dump int (take bardic knack?) and wis, but if you pump dex, wear armour without dex ceiling, and get weapon finesse you can hit and dodge anything and deal lots of damage (like with the human example). further, masterwork horn, vest of legends, and general bardiness. If you like it (and can get chaotic music as a feat) you might want to take a couple of levels in swiftblade. Have fun!

[sjeshin]

A melee bard huh, well, let's see is we can help you with that. First a good thing might be slippers of battle dancing. Then you will want to pick up Snowflake wardance and you will want to look into (as said before) optimising Inspire courage. But, there is more. You will want a nice one handed weapon (so you can still cast and blow your horn[optimised for DFI]).

Now if you have a nice DM you can ask if an elf could treat an elven thinblade (complete warrior) or elven courtblade (dragon mag) as an elvish rapier because they are elves. If you can't, be a silverbrow human, wield a rapier and go to town. if you can however, take forestlord elf, wield an elven thinblade (it's an elvish rapier! With Longsword damage! Yay!). Now you can choose to dump int (take bardic knack?) and wis, but if you pump dex, wear armour without dex ceiling, and get weapon finesse you can hit and dodge anything and deal lots of damage (like with the human example). further, masterwork horn, vest of legends, and general bardiness. If you like it (and can get chaotic music as a feat) you might want to take a couple of levels in swiftblade. Have fun!

One problem, common sense aside, is that a rapier is only a piercing weapon in the PHB. Snowflake wardance requires it to be a slashing weapon. Though this does seem like a good feat to make TWF suck a lot less. So I would probably have to go with a short / longsword. And i really think i'm missing something, what is the horn for?

[Dread_Head]

Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) and / or Abjurant Champion are both as good on a melee bard as they are on any other gish character, you do however sacrifice higher level bardic music. Virtuoso is good, if you do take Sublime Chord and want to continue progressing Inspire Courage.

Inspire Courage optimisation handbook is here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) but the gist is buy a Badge of Valour (item) (MIC), use the spell Inspirational Boost (spell) (Spell Compendium), take the feat Song of the Heart (feat) (ECS) or trade the Suggestion song for it and if you have the right alignment and stats take the feat Words of Creation (feat) (BoED). The Dragonfire Inspiration feat (DrM) turns the normal boost to hit and damage into the same number of d6 fire damage which is insanely good, requires dragonblood subtype though.

Bards make brilliant use of the Knowledge Devotion feat (CC) due to their high skill points and having all knowledges as class skills. Crystal Echoblade as others have said will be your weapon of choice and adding the Harmonising special property to it is pretty worthwhile.

Be careful with Snowflake Wardance (feat) (Frostburn) it can be a bit of a trap. Charisma to hit sounds amazing, but you're already gonna have decent to hits with IC and Snowflake Wardance locks you out of using THF so your damage won't be as high. You can base a build around using Charisma for everything but it generally requires mid-high levels before it becomes truly effective, if you want to focus less on the spells side of things then keeping charisma pretty low is possible and you can focus on strength for to hits and damage in combat.

Edit: What level is this build for? A lot of the items being suggested here such as Slippers of Battledancing (DMGII) and gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows (DrC) are only really within the price range of 10th level or higher characters.

[LibraryOgre]

Just remember: Bards are awesome. (http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/37868.html)

[Urpriest]

Edit: tomb of battle is banned in every campaign we play.

Luckily, Tomb of Battle isn't a real book. There's Tome of Battle, sure, but nobody would mistakenly call it Tomb of Battle, because why would a book be called Tomb of X if it wasn't about the undead or something?

Anyway, the classic melee bard is something along the lines of

Paladin (of Freedom) 2/Bard 8/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/ some class with 3/4 BAB and full casting 3

Paladin of Freedom is a variant Paladin in Unearthed Arcana, Sublime Chord is from Complete Arcane, Abjurant Champion is from Complete Mage. Options for the 3/4 BAB levels include Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine), Ruathar (Races of the Wild) and Harper Paragon (some Forgotten Realms book, not sure which).

[sjeshin]

Be careful with Snowflake Wardance (feat) (Frostburn) it can be a bit of a trap. Charisma to hit sounds amazing, but you're already gonna have decent to hits with IC and Snowflake Wardance locks you out of using THF so your damage won't be as high. You can base a build around using Charisma for everything but it generally requires mid-high levels before it becomes truly effective, if you want to focus less on the spells side of things then keeping charisma pretty low is possible and you can focus on strength for to hits and damage in combat.

I'm a little curious about this. If I am going to be mostly bard, (build will be lvl 10 to 15 depending on which 7 layers of hell we end up playing) and DO get many bonuses to hit, would i really lose damage from TWF instead of THF. I can still take leap attack, shock trooper, and other such charge shenanigans, what is the real difference? Power attack 1 for 1 on 2 weapons or power attack 2 for one on one weapon isn't the bonus the same if I 1) cant do the charge shenanigans, or 2) Can do them with either fighting style, and still hit with TWF?

[Urpriest]

I'm a little curious about this. If I am going to be mostly bard, (build will be lvl 10 to 15 depending on which 7 layers of hell we end up playing) and DO get many bonuses to hit, would i really lose damage from TWF instead of THF. I can still take leap attack, shock trooper, and other such charge shenanigans, what is the real difference? Power attack 1 for 1 on 2 weapons or power attack 2 for one on one weapon isn't the bonus the same if I 1) cant do the charge shenanigans, or 2) Can do them with either fighting style, and still hit with TWF?

Remember, your off-hand weapon would be light, without spending yet another feat, so you can't power attack with it. So you're spending feats and a few points of attack bonus for not all that much damage. Plus it's harder to cast while TWFing, since you can't just take a hand off one of your weapons (and one of Bard's important advantages is casting in combat when the need presents itself).

[A.A.King]

May I suggest the War Chanter PrC class? It doesn't advance Inspire Courage nor Bardic Casting but at level 3 you gain "Inspire Reckless" which is a musical version of everyone's favorite ability of Shock Trooper. It allows you to increase your attack bonus by any number you want by subtracting that same number from your AC, so you can combine that with Power Attack to decrease your attack bonus to increase your damage. At level 5 you can have two songs active at the same time, so you can combine Inspire Reckless with Inspire Courage to buff yourself even further.

[sjeshin]

Remember, your off-hand weapon would be light, without spending yet another feat, so you can't power attack with it. So you're spending feats and a few points of attack bonus for not all that much damage. Plus it's harder to cast while TWFing, since you can't just take a hand off one of your weapons (and one of Bard's important advantages is casting in combat when the need presents itself).

Very good point. I can usually magic extra feats out of thin air ( my DM's accusation not mine) so I didn't see that as much of a drawback, but not being able to cast could be a problem. I don't plan on focusing on it much though, so would it really be so bad to move action to put one away and then cast a spell? I plan on spending most of my time just singing and slashing. I don't have experience with bards and haven't done twf since my sickle ranger that specialized in tripping people. (I don't always optimize, but for this I want to.)

[Diarmuid]

1 for 1 on 2 weapons only when you can make a full attack. If you need to move and attack, which is much more common, getting the 1 for 2 on your only attack for the round will be much better.

That's not even taking into account needing a free hand for spells with somatic components.

[sjeshin]

1 for 1 on 2 weapons only when you can make a full attack. If you need to move and attack, which is much more common, getting the 1 for 2 on your only attack for the round will be much better.

That's not even taking into account needing a free hand for spells with somatic components.

Well I can also take travel devotion so I always have that handy movement as a swift so that I can full attack when I get there. I tend to want this on all of my melee goons. And again casting, not so sure i'll want to do it that much that I can't spare the move action to put one away. It is definately a drawback though.

[Deophaun]

I'm a little curious about this. If I am going to be mostly bard, (build will be lvl 10 to 15 depending on which 7 layers of hell we end up playing) and DO get many bonuses to hit, would i really lose damage from TWF instead of THF. I can still take leap attack, shock trooper, and other such charge shenanigans, what is the real difference? Power attack 1 for 1 on 2 weapons or power attack 2 for one on one weapon isn't the bonus the same if I 1) cant do the charge shenanigans, or 2) Can do them with either fighting style, and still hit with TWF?
The basic rule when it comes to THF versus TWF for a bard is are you taking Dragonfire Inspiration? If you are, you can make TWF viable. If not, THF.

[Rebel7284]

Well I can also take travel devotion so I always have that handy movement as a swift so that I can full attack when I get there. I tend to want this on all of my melee goons. And again casting, not so sure i'll want to do it that much that I can't spare the move action to put one away. It is definately a drawback though.

While travel devotion is nice, 1/day is not that great unless you are dipping cleric or sacred exorcist. Also, it eats into your swift actions

[Diarmuid]

Agreed on all counts.

[Darrin]

Remember, your off-hand weapon would be light, without spending yet another feat, so you can't power attack with it.


There are ways around that. Improved Unarmed Strike, for example = light, Power Attack friendly. And Versatile Unarmed Strike can make it slashing.



Plus it's harder to cast while TWFing, since you can't just take a hand off one of your weapons (and one of Bard's important advantages is casting in combat when the need presents itself).

Trickier to deal with. I like Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk), but there's no gaurantee that will be available. Somatic Weaponry will work, but TWF doesn't leave a lot of room for feats.

Bards do make some nice gishes, though:

Bard 4/Fighter 2/Abjurant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8.

or

Bard 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Eldritch Knight 1/Sublime Chord 2/Eldritch Knight +8

BAB +18, 9th level spells.


While travel devotion is nice, 1/day is not that great unless you are dipping cleric or sacred exorcist. Also, it eats into your swift actions

Necromantic Bloodline + Kin Mastery (Dragon Compendium) gets you Turn Undead 1/day. Or you can dip Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) for cleric-style Turn Undead.

[TiaC]

If starting at 15th, I recommend Sorceror 5/Prestige Bard 2/Virtuoso 2/Witch hunter 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +4. You could drop the Witch hunter for another level of Virtuoso as well. Take Chaos music(Practiced spellcaster for music) and Draconic Heritage(Battle).

Alternatively, there's always fochlucan lyrist builds
Bard 8/Druid 1/Sublime chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 5 (Using Shape Soulmeld and favored contact to qualify for everything)

A nice trick for Bards is to use spells with a long duration that give you an energy weapon or add energy damage to an existing weapon with Born of the Three Thunders.

[Petrocorus]

If i may:
Bard 2 / Paladin 2 / Bard +2 / Lyric Thaumaturge 4 / Sublime Chord 2 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 4

BAB 16 CL 18 Fort +9 REf +10 Will +20 Skill point 102

You could potentially add Divine Crusader, but qualifying for Fochlucan Lyrist without DM fiat is a pain in the...

Optimized Inspire Courage and DragonFire Inspiration is the best way to improve damage on a bard. And it improve all party damage.
You can get the Draconic / Dragonblood subtype with the Dragonic template from Races of the Dragon, or by using one of the draconic variant races from Dragon Magic.

[Socratov]

One problem, common sense aside, is that a rapier is only a piercing weapon in the PHB. Snowflake wardance requires it to be a slashing weapon. Though this does seem like a good feat to make TWF suck a lot less. So I would probably have to go with a short / longsword. And i really think i'm missing something, what is the horn for?

Well, the horn is part of optimisation of DFI, by getting a masterwork horn you get a bonus on to-hit, but lose the bonus on saves to fear. since DFI is keyed off accuracy (or to-hit) it will get you extra DFI, and thus extra damage. If you weren't a frontliner I would have advised for a masterwork alphorn, you can DFI everyone for miles :smallcool:

[Gwendol]

There's always somatic weaponry.