Polymorph Any Object to change type

[Zweisteine]

According to this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a), polymorph any object can be used to turn things into constructs of undead. My question is if it coul dbe used to just turn something into a construct or undead (like necropolitan, but without the experience cost).

For undead, it couldn't be done permanently, because undead probably aren't animals anymore, so the "same kingdom" requirement for a permanent change could not be met (though maybe you could change a skeleton into a zombie permanently, for instance). A two day transformation could be nearly as useful though, and easily achievable (and with extend spell, it would last for 4 days).

For constructs, it seems like it could, especially used on a warforged. Changing into another type of warforged is the more obvious usage, but it seems you could turn into a full-on construct permanently.
So if you just want to go from living construct to construct, wouldn't this spell work? You'd have probably have the maximum duration factor, 13. 2 for the unchanged size, 2 for unchanged intelligence, 2 for changing from metal and wood to metal and wood (same class), 2 for changing into a related form, and 5 for changing from vegetable and mineral to vegetable and mineral (same kingdom).

So, can it be done?

[druid91]

Can't you just cast it twice to make it permanent?

[Zweisteine]

Well, to get it permanent, you must get the +5 from "same kingdom." I somehow doubt that undead count as part of any kingdom at all (besudes undead, I suppose) let alone the three listed (animal, vegetable, mineral).

[CIDE]

That's the loophole, though. You go from Animal/Mammal/etc assuming human to Undead. Cast it again and you go from undead to undead. Granted, I'm of the mindset it doesn't work like this with no real method to legitimize it. Just that I wouldn't go for it in games I DM.

[Zweisteine]

Oh, right.

I'd assume the general counter-argument is that when the first casting wears off, the second casting's duration factor drops, so it will wear off as well.


But the warforged thing does work?

[Jack_Simth]

Can't you just cast it twice to make it permanent?Sort of.

Optimizers say so.

However, there's a couple of things that make that a shaky interpretation.

The first is the spell description of Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) itself; the ambiguous phrase is:
The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state.If "original state" essentially means "before this casting of Polymorph Any Object" then the trick would work if that was the only problem. If "original state" essentially means "without any magic" then the trick doesn't.

The second potential issue comes from the Combining Magical Effects portion of the Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects). The particularly troublesome clause:
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.So for purposes of the second casting of Polymorph Any Object, the first casting of Polymorph Any Object is 'irrelevant' - which could mean that you discard the effects of the first PaO when calculating things out for the second (note: You could get around this with a different transmorgification spell - this clause would not apply if Shapechange or Polymorph took the place of the first Polymorph Any Object).

However, that said, there are multiple possible interpretations of all troublesome phrases involved in the rules interaction. This is why I typed "Sort of" and "shaky" earlier. The DM is not outside of the rules as written to not let Polymorph Any Object stack in that manner. The DM is also not outside of the rules as written to let Polymorph Any Object stack in that manner. It is an unclear segment of the rules, and like all such, it's the DM's interpretation that matters, so it's up to the DM running the table.


But the warforged thing does work?Yes, no question. You need to be very careful of what Construct to pick, however, as you don't get as much out of it as you might like (nothing Su or Sp, and no Ex special qualities... and you're stuck with the critter's Int, and by and large, Constructs tend to be mindless).


though maybe you could change a skeleton into a zombie permanently, for instance
No, but that's because of the template rule inherited from Alter Self via Polymorph. You could, however, turn a skeleton of a medium critter into, say, a Bodak.

[Zweisteine]

Why I'm asking is if you can just get the construct type. Sure, you could econe certain not-mindless constructs, but oust then have to figure out weird issues with RHD, class levels, and LA. Could you just say, "now I'm a warforged, but with the proper construct type?"

[Jack_Simth]

Why I'm asking is if you can just get the construct type. Sure, you could econe certain not-mindless constructs, but oust then have to figure out weird issues with RHD, class levels, and LA. Could you just say, "now I'm a warforged, but with the proper construct type?"
By RAW? Nope. With Polymorph Any Object, you must turn into an existing critter (barring certain class features that make exceptions).

Now, if you took, say, the Warforged Juggernaut class, or the Green Star Adept, you could get the 'right' type. There's a couple of spells that grant specific subtypes, and you might research something based on those.

[fail_deadly]

Here is the best way to consider this; Would the end result be extremely powerful and have no downside?

The answer is yes.

Also, that article uses extremely circumspect logic in it's conclusion that Undead and Constructs are viable forms/targets for PAO. Usually, a spell that allows for a Fortitude Save only works on Constructs or Undead if the spell also works on objects.

However, Undead and Constructs are not Objects. The spell specifically mentions Objects. Otherwise it's the same as Polymorph, with the same limitations on types.

Undead & Constructs are neither A Living Creature nor are they An Object. Would you allow the spell Shatter to work on a Vampire?

Regardless, even with the faulty interpretation, you still have to pick a specific form for PAO - and templates are out.