I have registered to the forums to vent

[Zharradan Marr]

Like the subject says, I need to vent.

So, I've been running a D&D group for about a year, and we have five PCs. Had six for a while, but one moved out of town. Still, campaign is progressing nicely, they have overcome some great obstacles, vanquished powerful foes, and are now level 9. I'm looking forward to seeing them becoming the movers and shakers of the kingdom, cross swords with even more powerful enemies and sling even higher level spells.

A month ago I get an email from an old college friend, "my wife and I are moving to your area, can you hook us up with some D&D gaming?". I think to myself, not a problem, the friend and his wife are cool people and good players, I can find two spots at the table. So I say, sure, when you're in the area come and say hi. And I give my players heads up, they don't seem enthusiastic about being a group of seven, but I'm doing my best to convince them that those are good people joining, and everything's going to work out. Last night, we have a session, and the old friend calls me up, hey, we're in the area house-hunting, can we come over say hi? I say sure. So they come over, make acquaintance with the existing players, everything seems fine. The friend and his wife leave after sitting in for only about 15 minutes (they still have a lot of househunting-related stuff to do), and the session concludes without an issue. Or so I thought.

This morning, I get an email from two players, saying basically, "since you have new players now, we're leaving". That's it, just like that.

So, for now we have three players left in the game, I have spoken to them and all three are committed to continuing. Next session was confirmed to go as scheduled with three players. And in a few weeks the new players will, of course bring the total back to five, so the game's not in risk of dying. It's just extremely annoying that something like that would happen. Just so you'll know, I have created a custom Prestige Class for one of those players, because he wanted a particular set of abilities, and existing classes that offer those particular abilities were deemed too weak.

That's it, I'm done venting.

[Rosstin]

That sucks man.

Maybe those people had been thinking of leaving anyway? In any case you're probably better off without them.

I confess that I've left a game on a flimsy excuse before when the real reason was that I was sick of it, or run out of time, or anything else.

[Aolbain]

Yeah, that is weird. Did they say anything else?

[Asmayus]

There could be a bunch of reasons they wanted to leave before finding an excuse. They might come back around. Try not to overthink it.

In the meantime, why don't you google "Sepulchrave's tales of Wyre" - it's an awesome, (albeit unfinished/dead) campaign log I found recently.

It won't change anything but it'll inspire future plots, I promise!

Glad you feel better :P

[Rhynn]

Turns out some of your players were passive-aggressive jerks.

It happens, dude. It's a bummer, but life moves on.

Also, Asmayus's completely non-sequitur recommendation of "Sepulchrave's tales of Wyre" is golden. That's some awesome reading.

[Red Fel]

Agreeing with Asmayus and Rhynn. If they said nothing more than "That's it, we're leaving," they're clearly being passive-aggressive about something. (I wouldn't call them jerks, but it's definitely rude.)

If it matters to you, a simple e-mail asking why they left might be appropriate. But don't bother to beg. As you said, the campaign will live on. If they were so ready to leave, perhaps they wanted to anyway, and your visiting friends simply gave them the excuse. Perhaps they found your visiting friends offensive but chose to say nothing. Whatever the reason, they left, which is their choice; as Asmayus said, try not to overthink it.

Enjoy the people you have playing, and the knowledge that more are on the way. The people who enjoy the campaign will stay; others will go. That's how these things work.

Just remember that the newbies pay for the pizza. :smallamused:

[valadil]

Well that's obnoxious. I'm sorry your players did that. If I had to take a guess I'd say that something else was bothering them or that they had other reasons to want to leave rather than this actually being the cause of it.

Don't focus on the people who aren't into it. You still have a full party. Focus on them and forget about the people who left.

[Mr Beer]

People who quit over trivial issues and make it clear they don't want to discuss it, wanted to leave anyway and were looking for an excuse. It was going to happen sooner or later, don't worry about it.

[Delta]

A lot of people have a problem with conflict and don't like to create a stir. It's possible that your two players didn't like your friends or maybe even felt like you're playing favorites or something (don't really know enough about the situation to judge that), and they just didn't want to say anything at the table because they didn't want to face the conflict. And then of course it's easier to just say "I quit!" instead of "Oh I really don't like the new players/how you handle things/whatever!" because the latter would lead to answers and back and forth, with the former, you just get out of the way for good.

Not saying I'm thinking it's a good idea to handle things like that, at the very least they should've told you what they think is wrong, but I've been around socially very awkward persons for long enough to have seen stuff like this take place over and over again.

[Airk]

At least they decided to quit when you have new players coming on instead of just dropping out and leaving you with a perilously small group. Just sayin'. Silver lining and all that.

[GungHo]

Yeah, gotta agree with the consensus here. You dodged a bullet.

[Jornophelanthas]

At least they decided to quit when you have new players coming on instead of just dropping out and leaving you with a perilously small group. Just sayin'. Silver lining and all that.

I'm trying to see the issue from the point of view of the two people leaving, hoping it may shed some light on the matter.

You ask them whether they would be okay about two new players joining. I am guessing they were among the ones who seemed "less than enthusiastic" about being a group of seven.
So what if they were not just afraid of a large group, but they did not want to change the group dynamic at all? (i.e. "Don't change a winning team.")

Perhaps they feel disrespected because you asked them for their opinions, and then proceeded to ignore their preferences and do as you like anyway?

Perhaps they felt a vote should have been taken about admitting new people to the group, and they thought that this was such an obvious that they are offended that you just introduced these two people as "here are our new players"?

Or perhaps they felt like you wanted to replace them with the new players, and decided to leave before that happened?

And maybe it has nothing to do with you at all. For example, they could be in multiple games without enough time, and could have been on the fence for a while about which game to quit in order to not stretch themselves thin any more.

These are all possible positions these two players could be having. You should consider that they might even have long-running grievances that you are totally unaware of.

If you are invested in these two players, my advice would be to contact them (separately) and ask them for their reasons for leaving. Post this as an open-ended question, and do not let any assumptions sneak in.

If they are also your friends outside of this regular game, and you want to keep it that way, tell them so, and let them know that you look forward to playing with them in any future games or other non-D&D-related gatherings (whenever they may arise), and hope that it is the same for them.

[JusticeZero]

Right, honestly the first thing that came to mind was them thinking, long before, "I'm not really feeling it for this game, but I don't want to ruin it for everyone else by leaving them with no players". Then new people came in.

[Airk]

I'm trying to see the issue from the point of view of the two people leaving, hoping it may shed some light on the matter.

You ask them whether they would be okay about two new players joining. I am guessing they were among the ones who seemed "less than enthusiastic" about being a group of seven.
So what if they were not just afraid of a large group, but they did not want to change the group dynamic at all? (i.e. "Don't change a winning team.")

Sure. But the respectful thing to do here is at least give it a try, IMHO.



Perhaps they feel disrespected because you asked them for their opinions, and then proceeded to ignore their preferences and do as you like anyway?

Perhaps they felt a vote should have been taken about admitting new people to the group, and they thought that this was such an obvious that they are offended that you just introduced these two people as "here are our new players"?

Sure. But again, there are better ways to handle that situation than "Sorry, we quit."



Or perhaps they felt like you wanted to replace them with the new players, and decided to leave before that happened?

This one, OTOH, doesn't make any sense to me. Is this some sort of weird "You can't fire me, I QUIT!!!" sort of scenario?



And maybe it has nothing to do with you at all. For example, they could be in multiple games without enough time, and could have been on the fence for a while about which game to quit in order to not stretch themselves thin any more.

This is more likely, IMHO.



These are all possible positions these two players could be having. You should consider that they might even have long-running grievances that you are totally unaware of.

I don't care if they have long running grievances, this is still an immature way to handle it.



If you are invested in these two players, my advice would be to contact them (separately) and ask them for their reasons for leaving. Post this as an open-ended question, and do not let any assumptions sneak in.

If they are also your friends outside of this regular game, and you want to keep it that way, tell them so, and let them know that you look forward to playing with them in any future games or other non-D&D-related gatherings (whenever they may arise), and hope that it is the same for them.

This is all good advice though, so long as it is taken as written with all the ifs and stipulations.

[Rhynn]

I'm trying to see the issue from the point of view of the two people leaving, hoping it may shed some light on the matter.

The kindest conclusion we can draw from your suppositions is that they were passive-aggressive jerks, so...

[jedipotter]

I'm trying to see the issue from the point of view of the two people leaving, hoping it may shed some light on the matter.

.

Me too.

Going from a five person game to seven is a bit much. I might do the same thing and just leave. There is nothing to say, nothing to talk about, no discussion needs to be done. You just leave.

A five person group, even with a good group and DM, has lots of sitting around time for a single player. You might only get to play a third of the time. And that is with a good group and DM. If you have a bad one, like where the DM lets the special sneaky character always go ''ahead and scout'' and do a solo game while the rest of the players just sit there. Seven can make it even worse.

And on top of that....playing with a married couple can have problems too. Bad enough they will be ''stuck like glue'' no matter what. But it bring so many other problems like the ''don't talk to my wife'' stuff.

[Zharradan Marr]

Since venting made me feel a lot better, and attracted some interesting and useful opinions to boot, I shall now respond to some.

First, I made it very clear to everyone that I don't intend to kick anyone out to "make room" for the new players. What I said was basically - I know seven players is a lot, but I intend to work hard to make it work. Despite of that, if they was a strong sentiment against, I would not introduce the new players. But, when it came to voting, three of the five existing players gave a clear "yes" to the two new PCs (that makes four out of six, if you assume the DM gets a vote as well). The two players that would later leave didn't say "no", didn't say "if we're up to seven we leave", they sort of abstained, possibly because they saw they're about to be outvoted anyway and didn't want to be on the losing side of the vote.


playing with a married couple can have problems too ...Like I said, those are good people and good RPers. I know them, and can vouch for their ability to get along with people. Regardless of marital status, antisocial behavior on the part of the new players is not a concern at all, and I have made this clear to the existing players.

And, yes, I have definitely felt some passive aggressiveness building up in at least one of the players that left. He never said anything, but the facial expressions and body language gave away that he was under a cloud of suspicion that "the DM is out to get him". I really wasn't, in fact I was constantly bending the rules in his favor, what we had was more of a failure to communicate, but that failure is definitely on me.

[Drakefall]

Me too.

Going from a five person game to seven is a bit much. I might do the same thing and just leave. There is nothing to say, nothing to talk about, no discussion needs to be done. You just leave.

A five person group, even with a good group and DM, has lots of sitting around time for a single player. You might only get to play a third of the time. And that is with a good group and DM. If you have a bad one, like where the DM lets the special sneaky character always go ''ahead and scout'' and do a solo game while the rest of the players just sit there. Seven can make it even worse.


Jedipotter's got a solid, if slightly aggressively supported, point.

I certainly wouldn't want to play in a seven person group. I've had a couple sessions with large groups and even though the GM was good, in my opinion at least, and the players were people whose company I enjoyed I found it to alternate between dull and very stressful and generally not be an environment I would want for a regular gaming group.

Now, perhaps these two players were thinking that they just wouldn't have fun in a game with seven players and believed that you could not be dissuaded from bringing in these two new players even though they were there first. This is actually a pretty difficult situation to be in as even saying something like...

"Hey. So I really can't deal with playing in such a large RP group. I just wouldn't have fun, but I don't want to be that jerk who wouldn't let your friends join the group, so I'm going to drop out. No hard feelings, it was an awesome game."

... can sound passive aggressive and rude, as if the speaker is attempting to guilt trip. Maybe they couldn't think of anyway of phrasing it politely and so opted for a quick and blunt method that was less likely of raising any such misunderstandings and uncomfortable questions.

I agree that their chosen method of informing you was on the rude side, but as I said it's a difficult position, and, as mentioned by another poster, at least they did actually inform you as opposed to just dropping the game with no notification, so that's something I guess.

EDIT: Ah, pseudo-ninja'd by the OP! I suppose some of my points are moot then.

I will just add that saying "If we go to seven players I leave" even in a more polite manner can make one come across as a jerk, and people generally don't want to be jerks. Maybe responding as they did seemed like the least jerkish thing to do for them at the time for one or both of them. Perhaps the one guy is being a jerk about it and the other guys just followed along as he couldn't see a better solution. Who knows? Stressful social situations are stressful.

[Trinoya]

Chuck 'em and don't let them back. It's been my experience that players who quit for something as trivial as new players tend to be bad players. If they had given it a few sessions and brought concerns to you this would be different, but they didn't.

At absolute best they wanted to leave and did you a favor. At worst they are being *******s and think you'll choose them over your other friends. They've put you in a bad situation in that case and you should pretty much close your table down to them. I had a person quit my game to get back at another player (who he had a single argument over) and within a week he was begging me to come back in when he realized that I wasn't playing ball and forcing the issue on the other player. I'm told he complains about me ever chance he gets to whomever will listen... and honestly my life couldn't have been more improved with the dropping of that player.

Trust me, loose the drama players and YOU will feel better. Players come and go, but drama can screw you up forever. ^_-


That all said, here's hoping it all works out for you, sounds like you're dedicated and props to you for finding a way to vent. :smallbiggrin:

[obryn]

And on top of that....playing with a married couple can have problems too. Bad enough they will be ''stuck like glue'' no matter what. But it bring so many other problems like the ''don't talk to my wife'' stuff.
Um. How many married couples have you played with?

And what's "don't talk to my wife" stuff? Or don't I want to know?

[Cristo Meyers]

Um. How many married couples have you played with?

And what's "don't talk to my wife" stuff? Or don't I want to know?

Presumably the idea that if another male player is talking to one's wife then he must be hitting on her. Overprotectiveness.

Gamed with a lot of couples (hell, I'm in a gaming couple), never observed such behavior in the wild. Don't doubt it exists, though.

[Zharradan Marr]

Presumably the idea that if another male player is talking to one's wife then he must be hitting on her. Overprotectiveness.

Gamed with a lot of couples (hell, I'm in a gaming couple), never observed such behavior in the wild. Don't doubt it exists, though.Probably exists. But I would say that people who would exhibit such behavior are likely antisocial in other aspects of their lives too, and being part of a couple has nothing to do with it. Also, like I said, this is not the case here.

[Cristo Meyers]

Probably exists. But I would say that people who would exhibit such behavior are likely antisocial in other aspects of their lives too, and being part of a couple has nothing to do with it. Also, like I said, this is not the case here.

Oh definitely. It's usually indicative of a bigger issue.

Personally I've also never had a problem gaming with married couples, never received any complaints about ours either.

[Kesnit]

Gamed with a lot of couples (hell, I'm in a gaming couple), never observed such behavior in the wild. Don't doubt it exists, though.

I'm going to agree with this. My wife and I met through a gaming group. Two of our best friends are a couple we gamed with. Another gaming group I'm in has a now-engaged couple. (They got engaged right around New Year's.) I have never seen either member of any of those couples act defensive if another player (in or out of character) spoke to their SO.

[BRC]

Is this a couple where both members enjoy gaming, or where one is a gamer and the other is trying it out for their partner's benefit.

In the first case its all good.

In the second, the non-gamer may be looking for excuses to leave, since they're not actually having fun, and in doing so drag the gamer away with them.

[Zharradan Marr]

Is this a couple where both members enjoy gaming, or where one is a gamer and the other is trying it out for their partner's benefit.In the case in hand, both members enjoy gaming.

[BRC]

In the case in hand, both members enjoy gaming.

That's fine then.

As for the people who left your group, I'd look for some sort of external cause. My guess is that they were already not having fun, but did not want to break up the group by dropping the party below critical mass. (I've run very fun two-person games, but a lot of people cling to the 4-person-party as a golden standard).

[Rosstin]

That's fine then.

As for the people who left your group, I'd look for some sort of external cause. My guess is that they were already not having fun, but did not want to break up the group by dropping the party below critical mass. (I've run very fun two-person games, but a lot of people cling to the 4-person-party as a golden standard).

Socially, I think having at least 4 players and 1 DM is a sort of basic minimum. You can work with less than that but I think the dynamics start becoming "special" when you have less. Each member becomes more important, and if someone misses a game things get awkward. I was skeptical of the 5 or 6 person game at first, but having seen DnD groups in action for awhile I think having something like 5 players is a good ideal. Not quite too many to manage, and if you lose a player or two the game goes on.

That was totally off-topic but oh well.

[jedipotter]

Um. How many married couples have you played with?

And what's "don't talk to my wife" stuff? Or don't I want to know?

One too many. The married mini team can be bad enough, though it is the same with 'best' friends too: They come to the game to role play with each other and treat even the other players as ''NPC's''. A best you get stuff like wife shadow thief and husband Klongar the Barbarian will sneak around back...though Klongar is not even remotely a sneaky character, but can't bare not to game with his wife for even a second. And at worst.....yikes.


Some guys don't really handle other guys speaking to their wife well.....they will say it is ok, but will have an invisible line that moves that you can cross suddenly. It is bad enough with just normal joking around: she drops a dice and someone says 'butterfingers' and husband gets all mad. It is worse as a RPG husband might be one of them social awkward types or emotionally immature. So they can't really even talk to their wife other then in 'robot', and they get supper offended by the more charismatic social person who 'one ups them' with the wife.

And then you have the insecure husband who thinks all guys are hitting on his wife......

[Kesnit]

One too many. The married mini team can be bad enough, though it is the same with 'best' friends too: They come to the game to role play with each other and treat even the other players as ''NPC's''. A best you get stuff like wife shadow thief and husband Klongar the Barbarian will sneak around back...though Klongar is not even remotely a sneaky character, but can't bare not to game with his wife for even a second.

In defense of myself and other married gaming couples, that is not always the case. Heck, my wife and I have a tendency to build characters that barely get along with each other! (We don't do it on purpose. Just that we come up with character concepts that we want to play, but have nothing to do with the other's PC.)


Some guys don't really handle other guys speaking to their wife well.....they will say it is ok, but will have an invisible line that moves that you can cross suddenly.

That happens in non-gaming couples, and can be a sign of something bad.

[Jay R]

You don't have all of their reasoning, because they didn't give it to you.

My recommendation is to give your friends the benefit of the doubt, assume that they are making the best decision based on data they have and you don't, and don't sweat the small stuff.