Cool things to do with a dragon?

[NickChaisson]

So, My party has acquired a young black dragon(we grappled it and tied it up). My character is the actual "owner" of it (I traded away my share of all the loot)

Two things though, any tips on how to get this thing to either be my characters friend or not be evil? and also, any cool things we could actually do with a dragon? The DM seems fine with just about anything so far.

[(Un)Inspired]

any cool things we could actually do with a dragon? The DM seems fine with just about anything so far.

Make some half dragons.

[Tommy2255]

Slap a helm of opposite alignment on him. You might even be able to get away with convincing him to help you because you were the ones to save him from his wickedness. Worst case scenario, you now have a good aligned black dragon to confuse scholars.

[sambouchah]

To make the dragon good you could cast Sanctify the Wicked.

I would have it attack a town but not damage too much livestock or many people, and then tell the town you'll rid them of their dragon problem... For a fee of course. Then come back a day later and receive payment, move on to the next town.:smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

Make some half dragons.Upon reading the thread title, this was my very first thought, verbatim.

Also, Psionic Dominate the Evil one, then subject it to a mirror of opposition. Give the Good (but temporary) one a soul crystal of True Mind Switch. Command the Evil one to lower its defenses and fail its save. Then kill the Evil-one-in-the-Good-one's-body and watch as it dissipates. Now only the Good one is left (in the Evil one's body).

[(Un)Inspired]

Upon reading the thread title, this was my very first thought, verbatim.

Great minds think alike my friend.

[Drachasor]

The Book of Exalted Deeds goes over swaying a creature that's evil to good. It's not a bad place to start. Since this dragon is a CHILD, it should potentially be impressionable. I recommend treating it like a person. A child, but a person. So be a parent and teacher and not an owner.


Make some half dragons.

I doubt the OP wants to be a pedophilic rapist. To say nothing of the fact you aren't likely to get any half-dragons out of a child dragon.

[Rubik]

Great minds think alike my friend."Great." Riiiight.

Also, see the previous edit.

[(Un)Inspired]

Whoa whoa whoa. So much judgment! I'm just saying half-dragons are cool.

Always wait till your sexual partners are of the age of consent and willing before creating half-dragons.

[Rubik]

Whoa whoa whoa. So much judgment! I'm just saying half-dragons are cool.

Always wait till your sexual partners are of the age of consent and willing before creating half-dragons.+1.

I only thought what I thought because I hadn't read the first post yet.

[Drachasor]

Whoa whoa whoa. So much judgment! I'm just saying half-dragons are cool.

Always wait till your sexual partners are of the age of consent and willing before creating half-dragons.

Ahh, you just mean he should raise it as his own child for 50 to 75 years and then sleep with his adopted daughter (assuming the OP's character is male and the dragon is female).

That's somehow not really scummy?

I'm just not seeing how a half-dragon plan is workable here.

[(Un)Inspired]

Ahh, you just mean he should raise it as his own child for 50 to 75 years and then sleep with his adopted daughter (assuming the OP's character is male and the dragon is female).

That's somehow not really scummy?

Dragon culture is very different from human culture and to judge the actions of someone from one through the len of the other is shortsighted.

[Drachasor]

Dragon culture is very different from human culture and to judge the actions of someone from one through the len of the other is shortsighted.

I'm pretty sure dragons don't sleep with their offspring. And if you're raising the dragon then it certainly isn't growing up in dragon culture.

Not sure what your point here is.

[Rubik]

You could always cast Bestow Curse to age it a few categories...

[Drachasor]

You could always cast Bestow Curse to age it a few categories...

Yes, it's totally different if the dragon just has the mind of a child.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm pretty sure dragons don't sleep with their offspring. And if you're raising the dragon then it certainly isn't growing up in dragon culture.

Not sure what your point here is.

I would hope that the OP would raise the dragon with traditional dragon morals and values thus preserving its draconic culture. I'm not sure if dragons sleep with their adopted offspring. If they do, it's not my place to judge.


Yes, it's totally different if the dragon just has the mind of a child.

Also I think the Draconomicon says that dragons come out of the egg intelligent with knowledge of who they are and who they are descended from. Wyrmlings probably aren't perfectly equitable to children.

[Rubik]

Yes, it's totally different if the dragon just has the mind of a child.It'd be more useful to have a friendly adult dragon around than a baby one.

[TheMonocleRogue]

RP-wise true dragons aren't really meant to be cohorts, let alone evil ones in a campaign centered around good characters. Even though it is an infant that black dragon is much more intelligent and vicious than children would be. It also has the knowledge of its descendants, their morals, and most certainly won't want to spend time with characters that are its sworn enemies. If your DM is okay with you having a pet dragon then let him. If not I'd suggest ditching it the first chance you get.

However, if you want to be risky and possibly get some more treasure out of the encounter you could possibly find a group of kobolds that could take care of the dragon for you. Although they are evil backstabbers kobolds worship dragons like gods and won't bother to share treasure if you are holding a black dragon hostage.

[(Un)Inspired]

RP-wise true dragons aren't really meant to be cohorts,

The feat dragon cohort wants to have a word with you.

[NickChaisson]

Thanks for the ideas. My character is a male lizard folk and the dragon is also male. So no Half-Dragon children for me. I think I'm going to try to convince it to join me as a cohort or train me as a dragon disciple.

[Rubik]

Thanks for the ideas. My character is a male lizard folk and the dragon is also male. So no Half-Dragon children for me. I think I'm going to try to convince it to join me as a cohort or train me as a dragon disciple.Just don't go giving us LGBT folk a bad name, y'hear?

[Slipperychicken]

Yes, it's totally different if the dragon just has the mind of a child.

Once a black dragon hits the "Young" age category at 16 years old, its mental stats (Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10) are roughly the adult human average. That should be equivalent to a draconic age of consent, right?


young black dragon

Boo yah.


Slap a helm of opposite alignment on him. You might even be able to get away with convincing him to help you because you were the ones to save him from his wickedness. Worst case scenario, you now have a good aligned black dragon to confuse scholars.

They won't be very confused when they see a Helm of Opposite Alignment on its head.

[Drachasor]

Once a black dragon hits the "Young" age category at 16 years old, its mental stats (Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10) are slightly above the adult human average. That should be equivalent to a draconic age of consent, right?

Not really. Mental stats are unrelated to emotional maturity. And a YOUNG black dragon is not remotely physically mature. It's at the very least decades before sexual maturity.

Basically this would be similar to a genius 6 year old. It doesn't matter if they have good mental stats, they are still a child.


It'd be more useful to have a friendly adult dragon around than a baby one.

Forcing a child into the body of an adult is a pretty horrible thing to do, regardless of how "useful" it might be to your short-term ambitions.

[Rubik]

They won't be very confused when they see a Helm of Opposite Alignment on its head.The helm is a one-use, instantaneous item. Removing it doesn't change the alignment back, so far as I know.

[Drachasor]

I would hope that the OP would raise the dragon with traditional dragon morals and values thus preserving its draconic culture. I'm not sure if dragons sleep with their adopted offspring. If they do, it's not my place to judge.

Problem with cultural relativism is that it's completely arbitrary. If the OP's culture says you raise adoptees in his culture and not their native, then it "isn't your place to judge" either.

Of course, if you are really going that route, then I guess you are saying he should raise the black dragon as an evil creature that torments the weak, right? That's his culture, yes? And if part of that culture is raising children to want to have sex with you (or merely to accept that expectation), then that must be ok. "Not your place to judge" right?


Also I think the Draconomicon says that dragons come out of the egg intelligent with knowledge of who they are and who they are descended from. Wyrmlings probably aren't perfectly equitable to children.

It also says they don't know all that information and a lot of it is buried. It's very clear that young dragons and still young and have a tremendous amount to learn. And it certainly isn't sexually mature.

[Slipperychicken]

Basically this would be similar to a genius 6 year old. It doesn't matter if they have good mental stats, they are still a child.

A young black dragon is 16-25 years old. Assuming it has a comparable amount of life experience to a human (I see little reason why not) and has similar or better cognitive development than a human (which it does, to the extent to which D&D is concerned -its mental stats at that age are roughly the human average), it should be at least as mature as a human of the same age.

Since humans are generally trusted to make their own decisions around 16-25 years of age, and black dragons are inferred to have similar or better life experience and cognitive development by that point in their lives, then young black dragons should possess the same rights as humans of the same age (i.e. 16-25). This is not to mention that the medieval societies emulated in dnd generally considered 13-year-olds adults, often marrying off 13-16 year olds as a matter of course.

[(Un)Inspired]

Problem with cultural relativism is that it's completely arbitrary. If the OP's culture says you raise adoptees in his culture and not their native, then it "isn't your place to judge" either.

Of course, if you are really going that route, then I guess you are saying he should raise the black dragon as an evil creature that torments the weak, right? That's his culture, yes? And if part of that culture is raising children to want to have sex with you (or merely to accept that expectation), then that must be ok. "Not your place to judge" right?


Yup that's pretty much what I'm saying.

I try not to fall prey to anthropocentric moral views.

[Isamu Dyson]

Not really. Mental stats are unrelated to emotional maturity. And a YOUNG black dragon is not remotely physically mature. It's at the very least decades before sexual maturity.

Basically this would be similar to a genius 6 year old. It doesn't matter if they have good mental stats, they are still a child.

So...elves and humans shouldn't have children with each other, then? To an elf, it would seem that the typical human adult is a child to them.

[Rubik]

So...elves and humans shouldn't have children with each other, then? To an elf, it would seem that the typical human adult is a child to them.Given half-elf stats, that sounds about right.

Although elves don't even reach "teenage" years until they're a good hundred years old. I'm pretty sure it's elves who are the retarded ones, since they're not even potty trained until they hit their 20s.

[SassyQuatch]

So...elves and humans shouldn't have children with each other, then? To an elf, it would seem that the typical human adult is a child to them.
Well, of course. And to consider that half orcs get a bad rep for the "often the product of rape" while half elves are almost always the product of statutory rape. Elves are totally sick, man.

Or we could not listen to the false equivalency argument. That would be wise.

[Isamu Dyson]

Given half-elf stats, that sounds about right.

Although elves don't even reach "teenage" years until they're a good hundred years old. I'm pretty sure it's elves who are the retarded ones, since they're not even potty trained until they hit their 20s.

I don't think it's a matter of intelligence so much as limited time. Humans are bold and adventurous from a young age precisely because they have fewer years and have to get achievements under their belt in under, oh, half a century or so (hello, aging penalties :smallamused:!).

[Drachasor]

So...elves and humans shouldn't have children with each other, then? To an elf, it would seem that the typical human adult is a child to them.

I'm talking about a YOUNG DRAGON being just a child (pre-pubescent) BY DRAGON STANARDS.

If you are asking if it is ok for a 20 year old human to sleep with a 20 year old elf in D&D, then answer is decidedly NO, IT IS NOT. That 20 year old elf is a toddler. Weird, but that's how it is. Dragons aren't much different here. Sleeping with a 16 year old dragon is like sleeping with a 6 year old that's a genius. Just because they are smart does not make it ok. It also doesn't mean they are emotionally mature enough to make decisions about their sex life (which is odd to even consider since they aren't sexually mature -- pre-puberty).

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm talking about a YOUNG DRAGON being just a child (pre-pubescent) BY DRAGON STANARDS.

If you are asking if it is ok for a 20 year old human to sleep with a 20 year old elf in D&D, then answer is decidedly NO, IT IS NOT. That 20 year old elf is a toddler. Weird, but that's how it is. Dragons aren't much different here. Sleeping with a 16 year old dragon is like sleeping with a 6 year old that's a genius. Just because they are smart does not make it ok. It also doesn't mean they are emotionally mature enough to make decisions about their sex life (which is odd to even consider since they aren't sexually mature -- pre-puberty).

Well this is a fantasy scenario and unless I'm graphically mistaken there aren't any explicit rules on a dragon and a human getting their funky cold medina on.

Barring any text in the draconomicon or other book that specifies age of consent and exact time of sexual maturity for dragons,
I would say its up to the DM of what ever game you're in to decide if there are any societies that will frown upon or praise you for your unconventional lovin'.

[Tommy2255]

I'm surprised that, in this whole discussion of dragon ****ing, nobody has mentioned that it's not just pedophilia, it's also bestiality. Most half dragons happen when the dragon half of their lineage is polymorphed. Black dragons don't get the Alternate Form ability like some dragons, and a young one doesn't have the CL to use it as a spell.

[Isamu Dyson]

I'm talking about a YOUNG DRAGON being just a child (pre-pubescent) BY DRAGON STANARDS.

If you are asking if it is ok for a 20 year old human to sleep with a 20 year old elf in D&D, then answer is decidedly NO, IT IS NOT. That 20 year old elf is a toddler. Weird, but that's how it is. Dragons aren't much different here. Sleeping with a 16 year old dragon is like sleeping with a 6 year old that's a genius. Just because they are smart does not make it ok. It also doesn't mean they are emotionally mature enough to make decisions about their sex life (which is odd to even consider since they aren't sexually mature -- pre-puberty).

I actually didn't state the age of the elf, but the notion of an elf and a human conceiving a child becomes worse the older the elf is....the disparity grows.


I'm surprised that, in this whole discussion of dragon ****ing, nobody has mentioned that it's not just pedophilia, it's also bestiality.

Does it count when the species in question is both sapient and sentient, not to mention arguably superior?

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm surprised that, in this whole discussion of dragon ****ing, nobody has mentioned that it's not just pedophilia, it's also bestiality. Most half dragons happen when the dragon half of their lineage is polymorphed. Black dragons don't get the Alternate Form ability like some dragons, and a young one doesn't have the CL to use it as a spell.

WHOA!!! Slow down their buddy. Bestiality is defined as intercourse between a person and an animal.

I hope you're not implying that dragons are animals...

...unless you're implying that a dragon is a person and the human is just an animal...

...I guess that would make more sense.

[Rubik]

I'm surprised that, in this whole discussion of dragon ****ing, nobody has mentioned that it's not just pedophilia, it's also bestiality. Most half dragons happen when the dragon half of their lineage is polymorphed. Black dragons don't get the Alternate Form ability like some dragons, and a young one doesn't have the CL to use it as a spell.Well, technically it's only bestiality when reproduction isn't possible because genetics aren't compatible.

But apparently in D&D-land, humans and dragons can reproduce with basically anything, so that point is basically out.

I think the issue becomes bestiality when one of the participants isn't sentient or sapient (ie, Int < 2). After all, many different creatures can interbreed with others, and it's often accepted, albeit somewhat discouraged, for humans to mix with elves or orcs or dragons or celestials or fiends, but it still happens just fine.

[Tommy2255]

Does it count when the species in question is both sapient and sentient, not to mention arguably superior?

Ehhh... so are liches, but necrophilia is still creepy. And even if you cast Awaken, people are still going to frown upon your relations with that sheep. I guess it ends up being ethically okay, but people are still going to look at you funny, and if might not be a terribly pleasant experience (ie, rough scales scraping your junk).

[Isamu Dyson]

Ehhh... so are liches, but necrophilia is still creepy. And even if you cast Awaken, people are still going to frown upon your relations with that sheep. I guess it ends up being ethically okay, but people are still going to look at you funny, and if might not be a terribly pleasant experience (ie, rough scales scraping your junk).

What's what transmutation magic is for, I suppose :smallcool:.

[(Un)Inspired]

Ehhh... so are liches, but necrophilia is still creepy. And even if you cast Awaken, people are still going to frown upon your relations with that sheep. I guess it ends up being ethically okay, but people are still going to look at you funny, and if might not be a terribly pleasant experience (ie, rough scales scraping your junk).

I cast Barkskin and Grease.

EDIT: I can't believe I just typed that.

[Drachasor]

I actually didn't state the age of the elf, but the notion of an elf and a human conceiving a child becomes worse the older the elf is....the disparity grows.

I don't think anyone has objected to age disparity. If you are saying that's my argument, then it's a strawman (intentional or not). My whole argument is that the dragon the OP found is equivalent to a 6 year old human (thereabouts) in terms of emotional maturity. Much like how a 20 year old elf would also be of a similar age comparatively.

I do not care about species. I do not care about age. Having sex with prepubescents is not ok.

[Phelix-Mu]

Sleeping with physically immature people in D&D is definitely not good, and almost certainly evil.

For a nice double-standard, if we are modeling off real-world morality, the physically, but not emotionally mature, get into all sorts of trouble in relationships, cause and experience all manner of pain, but are generally regarded as non-evil (just foolish, something that is an almost universal sobriquet among humans).

But I'm pretty sure in several places in published lore it states that elves are much more sexually open-minded than humans, tolerating experimentation, flighty behavior, open relationships, and so forth. Clearly, this is a step short of saying elves accept the abuse of the sexually immature, but, for a race that ages less than a tenth as quickly as humans, there is a high likelihood that physical maturity, emotional maturity, and opportunity to experiment won't all sync up.

Dragons are even less morally inclined than elves. Dragons don't follow morality; they are their own morality. There is no culture for many dragons, just their racial preference for certain behaviors (which is largely hereditary, not inculcated). If a dragon wants to do something, they do. They are creatures of passion and appetites, and they restrain themselves to certain behaviors only when they feel like it.

Certainly, if Dragon X over there does something out-of-the-ordinary, there is no social circle of dragons that are going to show up and wag their finger at Dragon X. I believe it's also stated somewhere in the books that dragons are known to attempt matings with all kinds of creatures, including non-sentient ones, often for no other reason than they feel like it.

In any case, I think we have examples of evil dragons eating their offspring, or allowing their offspring to eat each other. They're evil, and rape is probably par for the course (if distasteful to many a gaming table).

That said, obviously the OP should be careful to have the character only engage in behaviors conducive to whatever their character's moral compass is, unless an alignment change is in the works.

Advice:
- Harvest that poison, dragon bile or whatever it was. Need a DM ruling if that can be done on a living dragon.

- Power energy transformation fields (SpC): rather higher level, but I believe breath weapon counts for this purpose.

- Source of tissue for dragon grafts or for dweomered scales. Kind of sounding evil.

- Source of genetic material for reproduction: even if the dragon is sexually immature, magic can probably allow the conveyance of dragon blood into another creature. Maybe time for a custom spell, along the lines of vile seed (was that BoEF?).

[(Un)Inspired]

I don't think anyone has objected to age disparity. If you are saying that's my argument, then it's a strawman (intentional or not). My whole argument is that the dragon the OP found is equivalent to a 6 year old human (thereabouts) in terms of emotional maturity. Much like how a 20 year old elf would also be of a similar age comparatively.

I do not care about species. I do not care about age. Having sex with prepubescents is not ok.

It's not ok between humans, on earth, in the real world. It might be perfectly okay among non-humans, not on earth, in a fantasy scenario.

[Rubik]

I cast Barkskin and Grease.

EDIT: I can't believe I just typed that.I think we might be stretching the CoC a bit thin here.

Also, for whatever it's worth, if dragon scales are anything like the scales of the snakes I pet-sat as a kid, they're actually quite smooth and pleasant to the touch.*

*But not that kind of touch.

[Xervous]

Obviously, If your DM is good and he lets you keep the dragon (not that he is letting you keep the dragon because he is a good DM, the two are mutually exclusive in this scenario), it may become the source of many plothooks and adventures. Looks like this thread brought out all the scalies... Which explains my presence of course.

[Marnath]

As a tangent, I just realized that unless you wait until the final years of being an Adult to breed, your children catch up to you as Mature Adults before you become Old.

[Tommy2255]

I don't think anyone has objected to age disparity. If you are saying that's my argument, then it's a strawman (intentional or not). My whole argument is that the dragon the OP found is equivalent to a 6 year old human (thereabouts) in terms of emotional maturity. Much like how a 20 year old elf would also be of a similar age comparatively.

I do not care about species. I do not care about age. Having sex with prepubescents is not ok.

How about Wisdom as an indicator of emotional maturity? And Bestow Curse to age it until it's physically mature. That pretty much solves all the indicators individually. There already was very little age disparity. There's no lack of emotional intelligence (because there never was, a 16 year old dragon is more mature than a 16 year old human, not less). There's no issue relating to physical maturity. The only remaining issue is that it's still a bit creepy, but whatever.

Now that that's settled, anyone have any ideas other than screwing it? It's a dragon. There has to be something interesting to do. How about the party druid takes him as a protege and teaches him the ways of the forest so he could wild shape into a humanoid (you'd have to get him into the MoMF prestige class). Or you could have a dragon dragon disciple that channels dragon magic to enhance his dragonness. Or you could turn him good using one of the methods that have already been suggested, but then keep capturing chromatic dragons and turning them good, and you could start an underground organization of chromatic dragons dedicated to defeating or converting their evil kin. Or you could leave him evil and manipulate him into destroying an evil empire (if you've got one handy), and use him for good through subtlety and manipulation rather than just outright changing his alignment.

Just, anything but more talk of screwing dragons. It's starting to get creepy.:smallfrown:

[Isamu Dyson]

Dragons are even less morally inclined than elves. Dragons don't follow morality; they are their own morality.

Are you referring to only Evil and Neutral dragons, or Good dragons as well?

[Alent]

All of the things you can do to a dead dragon are on the table as long as a restoration is available. With the right magic item from BoVD, the dragon will even enjoy having his talons dug out to make daggers and arrowheads, his muscles hewn from his bones to make rope, his gallbladder drained for the poison, his blood drained for healing potions, and his scales removed with a fishscaler to make armor.

And then you cast restoration and you can do it again. Reverse his alignment and convince him it's for the greater good and you might able to talk him into being a willing party to it.

You might even be able to pull off the gallbladder/dragonbile bit with just prestidigitation and no torture, depending on how familiar your DM is/isn't with digestive tracts.

[Rubik]

Now that that's settled, anyone have any ideas other than screwing it? It's a dragon. There has to be something interesting to do.I was about to say, "use it as a mount," but...

[Isamu Dyson]

I've got to be honest: the idea of forcing a Helm of Opposite Alignment onto a creature (even an Evil one) turns my stomach a little.

[Coidzor]

I hope you didn't give up very much loot for this or you have some way of actually enforcing your ownership of the dragon.

[Isamu Dyson]

Ask your GM to create or "find notes" about a near-mythical monk in a far away land (perhaps on another plane of existence?) that teaches others to conquer the savageness within themselves.

True, the training will take some time, but it could be beautifully roleplayed if all parties put their minds to it.

[(Un)Inspired]

I've got to be honest: the idea of forcing a Helm of Opposite Alignment onto a creature (even an Evil one) turns my stomach a little.

I agree with you're sentiment but Dungeons and Dragons has a spell specifically with the [good] tag that forcibly changes there alignment to good. So WoTC is totally on board with brainwashing.

[Tommy2255]

I've got to be honest: the idea of forcing a Helm of Opposite Alignment onto a creature (even an Evil one) turns my stomach a little.

I mean, you're kind of destroying a unique, thinking, feeling mind and replacing it with a fundamentally different one, but you were going to destroy it anyway, by killing it. If you don't change it's alignment somehow, that's going to have to happen.


Ask your GM to create or "find notes" about a near-mythical monk in a far away land (perhaps on another plane of existence?) that teaches others to conquer the savageness within themselves.

True, the training will take some time, but it could be beautifully roleplayed if all parties put their minds to it.

Although that's actually much better.

[Drachasor]

It's not ok between humans, on earth, in the real world. It might be perfectly okay among non-humans, not on earth, in a fantasy scenario.

If you want to make that case, you'll have to actually MAKE THE CASE. Merely saying "somehow it might be ok" doesn't establish anything. You could say the same thing about eating babies.


How about Wisdom as an indicator of emotional maturity? And Bestow Curse to age it until it's physically mature. That pretty much solves all the indicators individually. There already was very little age disparity. There's no lack of emotional intelligence (because there never was, a 16 year old dragon is more mature than a 16 year old human, not less). There's no issue relating to physical maturity. The only remaining issue is that it's still a bit creepy, but whatever.

I don't think a high wisdom implies emotional maturity -- I don't think any stat indicates this. You can see kids that are generally wise and have "common sense" still do incredibly foolish things. Emotional maturity is something that's going to take changes in the brain combined with knowledge and experience. All sources indicate that dragons still need to gain knowledge and experience. They most often have mentors after their parents have raised them to some degree.

I don't think there's a strong case to be made that they are emotionally mature anymore than a 20 year-old elf is. The books simply do not indicate this.

[(Un)Inspired]

If you want to make that case, you'll have to actually MAKE THE CASE. Merely saying "somehow it might be ok" doesn't establish anything. You could say the same thing about eating babies.



Actually in this scenario I don't have to make the case. This is a work of fiction. Rules of morality can be created or destroyed on a whim. It literally might be ok because I don't know the specifics of the completely fictional constuct world that this particular player's storyteller has created for him.

He could make any claims that he wants about the particular psychologies of the creatures populating his world so long as they don't contradict any of the published material.

Maturity cannot be judged on a universal scale nor is it a binary matter of having it or not having it. I have yet to see any material published explicitly telling DMs how to hand draconic sexuality (I hope I never see any), until I do, DMs are free to make any calls they desire about the appropriateness of this fantasy scenario.

[Isamu Dyson]

I don't think a high wisdom implies emotional maturity -- I don't think any stat indicates this. You can see kids that are generally wise and have "common sense" still do incredibly foolish things. Emotional maturity is something that's going to take changes in the brain combined with knowledge and experience. All sources indicate that dragons still need to gain knowledge and experience. They most often have mentors after their parents have raised them to some degree.

I don't think there's a strong case to be made that they are emotionally mature anymore than a 20 year-old elf is. The books simply do not indicate this.

Isn't sound wisdom what maturity is all about? Picking up on, and being in tune with, those emotional signs that others gloss over, then knowing a good (if not best) course of action to take?

[Particle_Man]

I say kill it and make dragonhide armour out of it for some deserving small biped. Young Black Dragons are medium sized, right, so the armour thing works for small humanoids. Maybe other parts of the dragon (internal organs, etc.) will have some use to wizards and the like, so could be sold for a profit.

[Drachasor]

Actually in this scenario I don't have to make the case. This is a work of fiction. Rules of morality can be created or destroyed on a whim. It literally might be ok because I don't know the specifics of the completely fictional constuct world that this particular player's storyteller has created for him.

You have to make a case that the situation here is actually different in the way you describe. Saying "it could be different" does not make it different. Nothing published indicates that this would be any better than having sex with a genius human 6 year old. You have shown nothing that changes this. Nothing.

Basically, you have no leg to stand on.


Isn't sound wisdom what maturity is all about? Picking up on, and being in tune with, those emotional signs that others gloss over, then knowing a good (if not best) course of action to take?

Wisdom in normal parlance means a lot of things (and it does not have to mean emotional maturity, especially regarding sexual situations). Indeed, emotional maturity regarding sexual situations can be a very different thing than emotional maturity in other areas of life. There's zero reason to think a prepubescent dragon is emotionally mature when it comes to sexual situations when it isn't sexually mature. There's no reason to think aging it magically is going to change that.

Further, nn D&D "wisdom" has a specific meaning, and it does not mean emotional maturity. Unless you are suggesting all powerful clerics and druids are inherently emotionally mature and that a player is "doing it wrong" if he plays a such a character otherwise.

[Coidzor]

Anyway, aside from trying to convert it into a cohort or at least an NPC ally(depending upon whether you continue to play in the same world for multiple games or across a large span of time with this DM this may or may not be more useful/interesting) or harvesting it for reagents or otherwise using it for raw material, there's... not a whole lot you can do with it, no.

edit: So, yeah, unless you're doing some kind of slaver campaign, taking guardianship of the dragon should not really have been a wealth-based decision.

I suppose if you want to try to recoup your loss you could try to get strong enough to negotiate with Neogi and sell them the dragon. Only other group that'd generally be interested would be Mind Flayers, as far as I can recall offhand, and Neogi are a bit easier to negotiate with and actually have a set up system for slave trading.

Drachasor: Pervirtuoso. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178713&page=2) That is all.

[(Un)Inspired]

You have to make a case that the situation here is actually different in the way you describe. Saying "it could be different" does not make it different. Nothing published indicates that this would be any better than having sex with a genius human 6 year old. You have shown nothing that changes this. Nothing.

Basically, you have no leg to stand on.



Ahh but don't you see? It doesn't need to be different for me to be right. It only needs to be possible for it to be different. Because the game has no rules for this scenario you are conflating real world morality with pure potentiality.

I'm not saying that mating with a young dragon is better than taking advantage of a 6 year old. I'm merely saying that it's possibly not as bad. The burden of proof is actually on you to show that there isn't the possibility for that being the case. Because your only evidence is extrapolation from descriptions of a young dragons intellect you can't definitively say that a dungeon master can't create a world where inter-generational relations between a dragon and a human aren't morally wrong.

If you do have the gaming omniscience necessary to say that no games ever have had, do have, or can have these moral setting; or citations from the text that specifically call out this behavior as immoral then I'll happily admit that I'm incorrect.

[Drachasor]

Ahh but don't you see? It doesn't need to be different for me to be right. It only needs to be possible for it to be different. Because the game has no rules for this scenario you are conflating real world morality with pure potentiality.

You have not established that it is possible for it to be different here. You have not established any standard by which one could say having sex with kids is ok. You have not established that dragons use a fundamentally different ethical system than we do (in fact they don't as defined by the alignment rules).

Saying "I don't need an argument" is not an argument.

[Rubik]

I really think the argument should be moved to PMs or dropped altogether. A bit of joking about "dur hur half-dragons" is all fine and well, but this is getting just a bit out of hand. Or claw, as the case may be.

[(Un)Inspired]

You have not established that it is possible for it to be different here. You have not established any standard by which one could say having sex with kids is ok. You have not established that dragons use a fundamentally different ethical system than we do (in fact they don't as defined by the alignment rules).

Saying "I don't need an argument" is not an argument.

I don't really need to make an argument. I don't need to establish any difference nor any standard. I don't need to establish that dragons use a fundamentally different ethical system than we do.

The game is played is such a way that when rules don't exist, it's up to Dungeon Master adjudication to decide what is kosher. There aren't rules for age of consent with dragons. Perhaps you play with some? I haven't heard of any in published material.

EDIT: I just saw Rubik's post. He makes a good point. If you'd like to continue this discussion you're welcome to PM me. If not no loss. I'm not terribly invested in it.

[Rubik]

Honestly, I think befriending the young dragon and teaching it The Power of Friendship (alternately usable as both a clean-energy, renewable fuel source and a destructive rainbow explosion laser) could make for an excellent story for how the (not so) little guy came to be loyal and devoted to you and your cause.

And raising a black dragon who grows up to be a champion of the innocent could make for a fine way to immortalize yourself in the bardic tales of the soon-to-be yore.

[Drachasor]

I really think the argument should be moved to PMs or dropped altogether. A bit of joking about "dur hur half-dragons" is all fine and well, but this is getting just a bit out of hand. Or claw, as the case may be.

Good point. I'll drop it. There's no purpose in discussing something with someone who doesn't even think they need to make any argument.

[(Un)Inspired]

I seriously think you should take the dragon cohort feat. Black dragons are cool and you'd be able to give it character levels. Either give it something with a fast caster progression like Ardent to make up for it's racial hit die or give it level in classes that don't care as much about racial hit die (factotum, warblade, etc. etc...)

[Isamu Dyson]

At least dragons are *only* genetically predisposed to certain alignments: the odds of you turning a black dragon to neutrality or even goodness are greater than, say, with an evil Outsider.

[Coidzor]

I seriously think you should take the dragon cohort feat. Black dragons are cool and you'd be able to give it character levels. Either give it something with a fast caster progression like Ardent to make up for it's racial hit die or give it level in classes that don't care as much about racial hit die (factotum, warblade, etc. etc...)

If you go this route, this handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=303204)may prove to be of use. Though, as a Young Black Dragon, that's 10 RHD to deal with, though the +3 LA is effectively negated by the nature of the Dragon Cohort feat treating its ECL as 3 lower.

[Phelix-Mu]

Are you referring to only Evil and Neutral dragons, or Good dragons as well?

My earlier point about dragons and morality is that it's a moot point; the MM states any dragons of type X is "always" the alignment associated with that type. This indicates, to me at least, that there is much more of a racial proclivity going on than some kind of general tendency. Good dragons aren't good because they, like humans, have to muddle their way through the dark and cloudy mess of neutrality to discover which side they want to be on.

Good dragons are good because it's hard-coded in their nature. Evil to them is deeply repugnant and offensive (if perhaps mentally stimulating vis a vis creating good rivals and amusing conflicts), they don't have to think hard about it. Magic runs in their blood, they have stats to put shame to any mortal race...I just don't see them wrestling over the finer points of behavior x, y, or z much. Either they are going to do it, or they don't.

That said, if a certain gold dragon likes to have sex with badgers, who is going to stop it? It's a dragon. Ahead of all of their flaws and virtues, they are proud and egotistical. A good dragon will make sure the badger comes to no harm, enjoys it, and is well taken care of. An evil dragon will...do whatever it feels like, and probably eat the badger afterward.

Anyway, I will second/third the Dragon Cohort route. I have found this feat leads to some excellent role play material in my games, and provides a very useful ally besides.

[RegalKain]

@OP: Sorry you never stated though, is your party good or evil? If you're good, then most of the other suggestions are what you can go with. If you're evil, you could bleed the dragon for a certain amount of time a day, rip out teeth, scales etc hit it with the proper spells and give it time to rest to turn a huge profit, but that's on the really screwed up evil side of things. Depending on how far you guys are taking the campaign, you could use it as a cohort as many have said, or if you have a Paladin (or If you can yourself) use it as a Mount. Pretty sure the rider would have to be Small though, not 100% on those rules.


Good point. I'll drop it. There's no purpose in discussing something with someone who doesn't even think they need to make any argument.

Sorry to re-hash the topic, I was leaving for work when I stumbled across the thread, I'd love to point out that you're 100% completely wrong by RAW that a young dragon is a "genius 6 year old" as according to the Draconomicon, the Young age is when almost all dragons strike out on their own, take their own territory and begin making their own hoard, some even do it younger at the "very young" stage, mostly because the lairs get cramped and things like that. So unless your genius 6 year old can do the equivalent of get a job, pay all their own bills and hunt for their own food, I'm really not seeing how they are even close remotely.

I'd say that "Young" dragons are of the age most teenagers are now-a-days, able to get their own job, provide for themselves etc, albeit dragons don't go into "mating season" so to speak until they are after the 50 year mark normally, that doesn't mean they are incapable of it before hand, it simply means that genetics kicks in and tells them to find a mate and have offspring near that age.

[NickChaisson]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. we are a party of mostly good people (with a few neutrals) I think I'm going to try to redeem it to be good (or atleast neutral) and maybe make it my cohort or convince the DM to let me play as it if the party ever reaches that ECL.

Also, I didn't give up a whole lot of treasure but I was the one who pulled it out of the sky and tied it up. I didnt want to just kill it, and it was a dragon (which are supposed to be extinct in the GM's setting) so I thought it would be cooler to save it. I have no regrets ^_^

[Drachasor]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. we are a party of mostly good people (with a few neutrals) I think I'm going to try to redeem it to be good (or atleast neutral) and maybe make it my cohort or convince the DM to let me play as it if the party ever reaches that ECL.

Also, I didn't give up a whole lot of treasure but I was the one who pulled it out of the sky and tied it up. I didnt want to just kill it, and it was a dragon (which are supposed to be extinct in the GM's setting) so I thought it would be cooler to save it. I have no regrets ^_^

Sounds good. Saving a race is a noble cause. As for playing it, well, it's unfortnate but Dragons don't make very good characters as I understand it. Too weak for their ECL, as most things are.


Sorry to re-hash the topic, I was leaving for work when I stumbled across the thread, I'd love to point out that you're 100% completely wrong by RAW that a young dragon is a "genius 6 year old" as according to the Draconomicon, the Young age is when almost all dragons strike out on their own, take their own territory and begin making their own hoard, some even do it younger at the "very young" stage, mostly because the lairs get cramped and things like that. So unless your genius 6 year old can do the equivalent of get a job, pay all their own bills and hunt for their own food, I'm really not seeing how they are even close remotely.

The Draconomicon is actually quite inconsistent here. In that section it has several ages where it states a Dragon strikes out on its own. It's actually quite unclear which one is the most common. But sure, a young dragon is more capable than a 6 year-old human. But a genius 6 year-old human is able to cook meals if food is available, and a young dragon can acquire food. A young dragon is also going to have a mentor for at least another hundred years or so. So it isn't like it doesn't have someone watching over it. The raising process is ongoing.

And sure, to an extent dragons don't need someone raising it as much as humans do. They have a lot of knowledge that's tucked away in their head, only presenting itself when they grow into it and need it. So that, their intelligence, and their physical capabilities really make it so that they are capable of more independence than an equivalent human.

That doesn't mean their emotional maturity on matters they have no experience with and have no physical development for is going to be any better.


I'd say that "Young" dragons are of the age most teenagers are now-a-days, able to get their own job, provide for themselves etc, albeit dragons don't go into "mating season" so to speak until they are after the 50 year mark normally, that doesn't mean they are incapable of it before hand, it simply means that genetics kicks in and tells them to find a mate and have offspring near that age.

Huh? Most teenagers cannot provide for themselves.

And yes, dragons are incapable of mating at the young stage. The age categories are explicit here as is the Draconomicon. It is before puberty.

[Phelix-Mu]

If it really says "puberty," then I should obviously read that book. I really enjoy in-depth discussion about creature biology and the like, the more detail the better.

I also think that we could have a totally erroneous discussion about how the OP's DM has dragons be virtually extinct in his setting. My understanding is that creatures that are experiencing problems with the size of their gene pool tend to mature at an earlier age, in order to expedite the process of increasing the number of individuals.

Anyone wanna see if we can apply Darwinian evolution to dragons?:smallsmile:

[(Un)Inspired]

Anyone wanna see if we can apply Darwinian evolution to dragons?:smallsmile:

You know how the Galapagos finches all have different beak shapes for different food sources?

The different chromatic dragons have different snouts shaped for eating different types of adventurers.

[Drachasor]

If it really says "puberty," then I should obviously read that book. I really enjoy in-depth discussion about creature biology and the like, the more detail the better.

I don't think it uses that word, but "juvenile" means the same thing and it does explicitly state when sexual maturity occurs (young adult). Young is before any of that, so it is definitely still a kid, as dragons go. Granted, D&D is really bizarre with this, given how Elves, Dragons, and other races spend many decades as kids.


I also think that we could have a totally erroneous discussion about how the OP's DM has dragons be virtually extinct in his setting. My understanding is that creatures that are experiencing problems with the size of their gene pool tend to mature at an earlier age, in order to expedite the process of increasing the number of individuals.

Hmm, I've not heard that. It might depend on what parts of the gene pool survived. The problem the OP is most likely to have, genetically speaking, is finding a large enough dragon population to rekindle the race. This would not be easy, and might require gathering a lot of different species of true dragons together. Even if you found enough black dragons alone, you'd probably end up with a species a bit different than the original black dragons due to genetic drift.

[Phelix-Mu]

You know how the Galapagos finches all have different beak shapes for different food sources?

The different chromatic dragons have different snouts shaped for eating different types of adventurers.

I really do wonder. As highly magical beings, dragons are essentially magically fertile, and across multiple books are described as being able to eat almost anything. I wonder how much biology we can apply.

Clearly, from the dragon perspective, they were created as perfect beings, and any insinuation that they would change due to something as pathetic as the nature of reality or environmental pressures is just extremely insulting.

They are, in many senses, an apex creature, both in the biological and psychological sense. Edge cases excepted, a dragon encounters little in it's environment that it doesn't have some manner of control or power over. Even at a young age, dragons are far and away the biggest threat to dragons. And even gods tend to give the powerful elder dragons a wide berth.

[Drachasor]

I really do wonder. As highly magical beings, dragons are essentially magically fertile, and across multiple books are described as being able to eat almost anything. I wonder how much biology we can apply.

Clearly, from the dragon perspective, they were created as perfect beings, and any insinuation that they would change due to something as pathetic as the nature of reality or environmental pressures is just extremely insulting.

They are, in many senses, an apex creature, both in the biological and psychological sense. Edge cases excepted, a dragon encounters little in it's environment that it doesn't have some manner of control or power over. Even at a young age, dragons are far and away the biggest threat to dragons. And even gods tend to give the powerful elder dragons a wide berth.

Dragons are actually extremely advanced constructs from the far future of the Terminator/Back To the Future cross-over. They are so advanced that they are vulnerable to crits and sneak attacks of course. As for their stomachs, that's just an advanced model of Mr. Fusion.

[Phelix-Mu]

Dragons are actually extremely advanced constructs from the far future of the Terminator/Back To the Future cross-over. They are so advanced that they are vulnerable to crits and sneak attacks of course. As for their stomachs, that's just an advanced model of Mr. Fusion.

Ooh. I sense a nice bit of plot material here. Although time travel is currently a bit of a problem with me (after the 50th Anniversary episode of Doctor Who, I got some ideas and got ambitious and...well, it didn't work out to be as interesting as I planned, just a massive headache).

That said, creatures returned from the future to the past in order to do mysterious ABC and such is definitely classic, and I do like the idea of machines so advanced that they begin to resemble living things. An interesting twist.

I suppose Io could be a Dr. Light-type genius scientist that created the first dragon in his own image, only to later realize that he'd created something that existed on a level beyond his control (Frankenstein/Skynet).

Hmm. That has some potential. I'll chalk it down right next to zombie werewolves, zombie plants, ambulatory green slime, and mindrape spores.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, that made me think of dragons that are actually thousands, millions, or billions of constructs each specialized (basically, constructs instead of cells). Normally it would be like one creature, but it can also convert itself into a swarm.

Hmm, related campaign theme: 1000 Ways to Make a Dragon. A battle/exploration of different ways people have made dragons and how the method changes the mechanics.

[RegalKain]

Huh? Most teenagers cannot provide for themselves.

And yes, dragons are incapable of mating at the young stage. The age categories are explicit here as is the Draconomicon. It is before puberty.

Errr, maybe it's different where you live? Most teenagers I knew when I was in that age bracket held down full-time or part-time jobs, had their own apartments and still finished school.

They are not incapable, nor does it say as much in the age categories (especially) that they are incapable of mating, or cannot mate at a younger age. It simply says they are ready to mate at the Young Adult age. (That does not instantly mean they are incapable of doing so before, they just aren't ready, I don't read that as incapable though.) All in all, it's a rather silly argument when you get down to the fact that dragons in no way shape or form are even remotely close to anything we as humans can relate to in the modern day and age, the oldest lived dragons are over 4,000 years old I mean come on that's the rise and fall of several empires.