Durkula, V's Soul, the IFCC, and the Arcane/Divine Ritual to Control the Snarl's Gate

[Tathum]

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine and had an interesting notion...

Basically, I was telling him my hope that there were going to be greater consequences of Durkon being turned into a vampire beyond what the current storyline provides. It felt rather quick and glossed over the way it happened and I KNOW that OotS is typically a bit more thorough in its story telling.

I think Durkon may seem happy and helpful on the outside, but he is Lawful Evil now and I'm sure he has some nefarious end he is working towards and his friends are a part of that. In the next book, I'm sure we'll see hints of it, and I'm now hoping that it may be part of something MUCH greater.

With V's soul in doubt, having been sold to power the soul splice though the machinations of the IFCC, what if its possible for the three lower fiends to do something MORE with it than just hold V hostage for short periods? I doubt they'll be able to force him/her to do anything against his/her will (I think V is a 'she', I should just call her that), but what if V's need for arcane supremacy pushes her to the point to accept the IFCC's aid / instructions once again; either through a loophole in the contract to keep her soul longer or putting those she loves in danger or just plain lust for power.

And what if this happens right after the final battle when the OotS defeats Xykon and Red Cloak just before they complete the Arcane / Divine ritual needed to shift the Snarl's gate?

And what if Durkula then seizes control of the ritual himself and with controlled V's help ... they COMPLETE the ritual themselves!?!

A long and convoluted trail, I know ... but isn't that what Order of the Stick is all about? It feels like an excellent way for the story to flow, imagine it...

The triumphant cheer as Red Cloak lays dying, watching Roy through half-lidded eyes as the green hilted ancestral sword cleaves through Xykon's skull and the battle is over. Belkar would exclaim in happiness that he survived the entire encounter, mocking the Oracle for being wrong about his death. V's soul is hijacked one last time. Durkula sees his chance. The pair complete the ritual. Belkar either sacrifices himself to save the group or is sacrificed to the Snarl to complete the ritual.

Hilarity ensues.

What do you guys think?

[Khay]

I thought the ritual had a casting time of "several weeks", not "about half an hour". Or am I misremembering something?

[Tathum]

I thought the ritual had a casting time of "several weeks", not "about half an hour". Or am I misremembering something?

Not sure where it said that, but if it had...

It will take the Mechane a week or so to arrive, and who knows how long it will take the OotS to get there. Laws of the Dashing Sword do dictate that Élan arrive on the scene with his friends in the nick of time. They probably will stop Xykon just before him and Red Cloak complete their work.

Leaving Durkula and V at the right place at the right time.

[Xelbiuj]

As far as we know, the ritual;

A. Gives control of where the gate is specifically to the Dark One, not anyone else. We don't know if the ritual can be modified.
B. The divine half is entirely in RC's head and imparted through the Crimson Mantle.
C. Takes weeks to cast.

[Tathum]

So, no other evil deity or lower power is capable of manipulating the gate except the Dark One?

No other being is capable of having the Divine Knowledge of how to work the moving of the Snarl's realm except Red Cloak?

The IFCC seems like they would have the time and the resources to figure it out as well. But if the story says that only Xykon is able to complete it, then...

[Rodin]

So, no other evil deity or lower power is capable of manipulating the gate except the Dark One?

No other being is capable of having the Divine Knowledge of how to work the moving of the Snarl's realm except Red Cloak?

The IFCC seems like they would have the time and the resources to figure it out as well. But if the story says that only Xykon is able to complete it, then...

Basically, we don't know. The Dark One is the only one of the gods that are shown to be interested in the gates. The IFCC have some sort of plan in the works, but they don't have the resources to directly use the ritual on the gate (namely, they are lacking both an Epic spellcaster and a high-level Cleric).

Just because we haven't been shown this stuff though, doesn't mean that it isn't building off-screen.

[Tathum]

That's what I mean, though...

With a soul spliced V and a Lawful Evil Durkula on their side, they would have both. Again, I don't think Durkula now has the OotS completely at heart anymore.

I'm hoping the comraderie and healing aid is a front and he has other plans brewing in the back of his wicked mind now. As much as I love and will miss Durkon, Durkula should be much more scheming and nefarious. Throwing in with the IFCC would be right up that alley.

[Rift_Wolf]

The IFCC already said they couldn't control V as it would break their rules.
They also don't seem interested in commandeering a gate. If they did, they have the resources to do that on their own, without V/Durkon (and why would Durkon help them? He's already shown he isn't going to team up with evil people (Nale and Zzitdri) just because they're evil, why would a group of demons he has no real connection with be any different?)
V's unlikely to take any more help from the IFCC; he seems genuinely repentant now he understands the cost of what he did.
Why is everyone so convinced Durkon's going to turn on the Order? Evil isn't about killing everything. Belkar's pseudo-development showed us that.

[SavageWombat]

Even if Durkon is now malevolently, dedicatedly LE (which I doubt) - it doesn't magically turn him into a scheming mastermind.

Durkon and long-term underhanded plots are not concepts that go well together.

[konradknox]

I would not be in the least surprised if there was a long term plot now, because the old Durkon is gone for a reason. The Giant wants to introduce some depth to Durkon's story, it surely has been long professed. It has to resolve somehow, and I think we have just seen the turning point.

[Keltest]

Ignoring for the moment whether Durkon would be capable of making such a plan in the time between then the Order stumbles upon the ritual and they beat up Xykon, he became evil (maybe, that's up for debate at the moment), not chaotic. He would still consider Duty and obligations very important, and he considers it his job to see this quest done.

[Procyonpi]

Why do people assume that just because he's evil (and the degree to which he is is somewhat unestabished) why would he suddenly want to help the IFCC just because they're Evil, too? Durkula seems to be rather against messing with the snarl at the very least from a pure self interest perspective.

[AgentofHellfire]

Why do people assume that just because he's evil (and the degree to which he is is somewhat unestabished) why would he suddenly want to help the IFCC just because they're Evil, too? Durkula seems to be rather against messing with the snarl at the very least from a pure self interest perspective.

Didn't the IFCC also laugh at that notion? XD

[137beth]

Why would Durkon want to ally with the IFCC?:smallconfused:

[Tathum]

I can not stress enough the fact that I believe that just because Durkula is now evil doesn't mean he's going to run around slaughtering people willy nilly...

He's Lawful Evil, I believe (or at the very least, hope) that he has a plan or is working on one that uses his former friends to further a more nefarious end. He is still loyal to the group, but he will be loyal to a point. Personally, I hope Durkula is secretly making thralls or charming each of his former comrades every time they allow him to feed on them.

Oh, he will be the Cleric they once knew in the meantime, he will even help them kill Xykon. I just don't think he's killing Xykon now solely for the reason that Xykon is evil, but now because he is a rival or in the way of something Durkula may want. Eventually, I believe Durkula's machinations will lead him to the Snarl and trying to control it in someway just like Red Cloak is.

And everyone saying Durkula would never throw in with the IFCC, why not? Understand that he is a vampire and he is evil ... Durkon is DEAD. He ain't coming back ... the shell that exists with an undead thing running around is still part of the group and is still the Cleric for OotS ... but he is now evil.

Sure, he won't run off with the IFCC right away, I just think that later down the line they may make an enticing offer to a fellow minion of evil that is best for both parties involved.

And I hope it involves V's soul.

Just saying'...

[Keltest]

I can not stress enough the fact that I believe that just because Durkula is now evil doesn't mean he's going to run around slaughtering people willy nilly...

He's Lawful Evil, I believe (or at the very least, hope) that he has a plan or is working on one that uses his former friends to further a more nefarious end. He is still loyal to the group, but he will be loyal to a point. Personally, I hope Durkula is secretly making thralls or charming each of his former comrades every time they allow him to feed on them.

Oh, he will be the Cleric they once knew in the meantime, he will even help them kill Xykon. I just don't think he's killing Xykon now solely for the reason that Xykon is evil, but now because he is a rival or in the way of something Durkula may want. Eventually, I believe Durkula's machinations will lead him to the Snarl and trying to control it in someway just like Red Cloak is.

And everyone saying Durkula would never throw in with the IFCC, why not? Understand that he is a vampire and he is evil ... Durkon is DEAD. He ain't coming back ... the shell that exists with an undead thing running around is still part of the group and is still the Cleric for OotS ... but he is now evil.

Sure, he won't run off with the IFCC right away, I just think that later down the line they may make an enticing offer to a fellow minion of evil that is best for both parties involved.

And I hope it involves V's soul.

Just saying'...

As the IFCC themselves pointed out, just because theyre evil doesn't mean theyre automatically buddies.

[Gamerdood]

There is one key thing that you are forgetting here:
V could, potentially, redeem the rest of the contract hirself.

There is nothing in the contract that says that V couldn't redeem the rest of the time that he/she is owed. All V has to do is kill hirself, (several volleys of magic missiles would be a painful, but effective way of doing so without harming the boat if nobody nearby is willing to do so).

Durkon would be on standby to revive hir when enough time has passed, (he could even wait until about a day before arrival, just to be sure). No doubt Scoundrel would have a stock of valuables, including hopefully, the diamond dust needed, if the party doesn't have it.

It would make for a very interesting sidebar for the fairly uninteresting ride to the final gate.

[137beth]

There is one key thing that you are forgetting here:
V could, potentially, redeem the rest of the contract hirself.

There is nothing in the contract that says that V couldn't redeem the rest of the time that he/she is owed. All V has to do is kill hirself, (several volleys of magic missiles would be a painful, but effective way of doing so without harming the boat if nobody nearby is willing to do so).

Durkon would be on standby to revive hir when enough time has passed, (he could even wait until about a day before arrival, just to be sure). No doubt Scoundrel would have a stock of valuables, including hopefully, the diamond dust needed, if the party doesn't have it.

It would make for a very interesting sidebar for the fairly uninteresting ride to the final gate.

The IFCC doesn't need to use their time immediately after V dieing, they never said so in their verbal contract, so that wouldn't work.

[Harbinger]

Durkon has no reason to betray his friends. He may be evil now, but he's still Durkon and Durkon is still loyal to his friends. Even from a logical standpoint, looking at it through Durkon's perspective he has nothing to gain by helping the IFCC. He'd rather live in the universe as it is than risk it's destruction so that fiends can be happy. There's also the fact that neither the IFCC nor Durkon knows about the ritual or how to do it. Finally, Durkon has never been an active person. He's the most passive individual we've seen. He's also honest to a fault. Maybe he has changed quite a bit, but Durkon, even vampire Durkon, is the last person I'd expect to be making sneaky complicated plans.

[Komatik]

Durkon has no reason to betray his friends. He may be evil now, but he's still Durkon and Durkon is still loyal to his friends. Even from a logical standpoint, looking at it through Durkon's perspective he has nothing to gain by helping the IFCC. He'd rather live in the universe as it is than risk it's destruction so that fiends can be happy. There's also the fact that neither the IFCC nor Durkon knows about the ritual or how to do it. Finally, Durkon has never been an active person. He's the most passive individual we've seen. He's also honest to a fault. Maybe he has changed quite a bit, but Durkon, even vampire Durkon, is the last person I'd expect to be making sneaky complicated plans.

This. I don't understand why Evil alignment seems to automatically mean "Member of one global team of nasty people", "Scheming, backstabbing Machiavellian mastermind with no loyalties", "omnicidal maniac hellbent on murdering everyone" or similar depths of depravity completely unconnected to who or what Durkon is. Especially the insistence on backstabbing is strange as hell.

It's still Durkon, people. He's LE now, yes. So lacking in empathy towards strangers and generally more ruthless and selfish. But he's still a Lawful Dwarf Cleric named Durkon Thundershield. There's absolutely zero reason he'd abandon his longtime friends and allies, let alone kill them, sans perhaps offing Belkar. Evil people can have friends, feel things, show dedication and loyalty, even altruism towards a select few people. They're probably a bit more likely to leave a cause as lost and save themselves if things go south is all.
The true test is how they treat strangers, enemies and people who are just somehow obstacles to them reaching their goals.

[Keltest]

The IFCC doesn't need to use their time immediately after V dieing, they never said so in their verbal contract, so that wouldn't work.

Moreover, Theres no guarantee that V would go to one of the ones who still had time or any of them at all.