Spellcasting for new players.

[Totema]

I'm running a game in which all of my players are brand new. None of them played any d20-style game before. The players using martial classes are having a good enough time, but I also have a cleric and a wizard, and they are having noticeably less fun. When I asked about it, they both agreed that the spell system is overwhelming.

I figured that temporarily suspending the necessity to prepare spells (essentially making them cast like a favored soul and sorcerer) might help, but it actually makes it worse. Rather than spending half an hour to prepare spells before the game starts, they take fifteen minutes every round to decide what to cast. I think they're on the verge of giving up on the game, or at least picking non-casting characters to continue with, which would really cripple the party's power level later on. I'm a little hesitant to suggest spells to them, though; I don't want them to rely on me like a crutch, and nor do I want to inadvertently teach them bad habits in spell selection down the road.

What else can I do to make spellcasting faster and easier for them?

[Qc Storm]

I'm running a game in which all of my players are brand new. None of them played any d20-style game before. The players using martial classes are having a good enough time, but I also have a cleric and a wizard, and they are having noticeably less fun. When I asked about it, they both agreed that the spell system is overwhelming.

I figured that temporarily suspending the necessity to prepare spells might help, but it actually makes it worse. Rather than spending half an hour to prepare spells before the game starts, they take fifteen minutes every round to decide what to cast. I think they're on the verge of giving up on the game, or at least picking non-casting characters to continue with, which would really cripple the party's power level later on. I'm a little hesitant to suggest spells to them, though; I don't want them to rely on me like a crutch, and nor do I want to inadvertently teach them bad habits in spell selection down the road.

What else can I do to make spellcasting faster and easier for them?

Give them a quick list of fail-proof spells they can pick from. Only about half of the spells in the core are useful more than once in a century.

[Petrocorus]

You could point them to the many handbook out there.

You could also rebuild their character as Favoured Soul and Sorcerer, and help them pick the most useful / versatile spell. It could help them learn how to handle spell casting.

[TheMonocleRogue]

Have them play as spontaneous casters just to get the "feel" of casting spells. Prepared spell casters are too much for new players to take in and can intimidate even intermediate players. The sheer amount of optimization possible for those classes is the main reason why I reserve them only for experienced players.

You could also have them play as rangers or paladins. Both use prepared spell casting but select from a much smaller list and have less spells per day so it's much easier.

[Yawgmoth]

Have the cleric use the spontaneous divine caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant, have the wizard switch to an int-based sorcerer with bonus wizard feats. So, so much easier than messing around with spells prepared.

[RolandDeschain]

Have the cleric use the spontaneous divine caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant, have the wizard switch to an int-based sorcerer with bonus wizard feats. So, so much easier than messing around with spells prepared.

In the past, I've discovered that Rangers and Paladins are often fun for new players. They get to do all of the martial(melee/ranged) stuff for a few levels until they get comfortable and then they ease their way into some very limited spellcasting. Also, there are some class that have very "narrow" lists of spells like Duskblade or Beguiler which cut down the learning curve substantially. It's the OPTIONS that are paralyzing, not the actual act of casting spells. If you have to "fudge" the effects of the spells a little bit, just to get your hooks into and get them addicted...lol

[Cassidius]

I'd like to echo what others have said and recommend spontaneous casters, wizards and clerics just take on a lot more rules and options than other players and it makes them difficult to play. Beyond that a preset daily spell sheet with checkboxes for spells helps. They can play that same list every day and check spells off as they use them. It helps keep things in order and limit the amount of effects they have to access or remember.

[eggynack]

I would go with the option of telling your players stuff. Point out some good spells, because there're a lot, and having something to work with is good. Putting together a list for them isn't the worst idea, but you don't have to go that far. Maybe show the wizard player treantmonk's guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876), because it's neat. I dunno what to show a cleric player though, cause the spell selection on the cleric handbook I know of is pretty limited. I think that information is out there though, if you know where to look. The way I figure it, giving your players more system knowledge is a way to get them to rely on you less, at least after a certain point.

[Petrocorus]

I would go with the option of telling your players stuff. Point out some good spells, because there're a lot, and having something to work with is good. Putting together a list for them isn't the worst idea, but you don't have to go that far. Maybe show the wizard player treantmonk's guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876), because it's neat. I dunno what to show a cleric player though, cause the spell selection on the cleric handbook I know of is pretty limited. I think that information is out there though, if you know where to look. The way I figure it, giving your players more system knowledge is a way to get them to rely on you less, at least after a certain point.

The BG version (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) has a full list of spell to select.

Treantmonk's guide is one of the best guide evaar.

[Totema]

My wizard player already has found some handbooks on his own, and appears to know a good amount about his spell options in theory, but he still hems and haws a lot when we actually play. My cleric player, on the other hand, doesn't even seem convinced that his class can do as much as I tell him it can. I'm actually considering letting him play as a druid - that way he can still cast divine magic, but also smash face with an animal form when he wants.

[eggynack]

I'm always in support of any plan that involved more druidry. Druid spells tend to be a lot more directly and obviously powerful than the spells of other classes. Like, you have something like silent image, with its infinite subtle applications, and then you have something like entangle, which is always exactly what it looks like. Clerics get commune, which lets you plan things out in precise and amazing ways, and druids get control winds, which lets tornadoes happen. Great stuff.

[Petrocorus]

My wizard player already has found some handbooks on his own, and appears to know a good amount about his spell options in theory, but he still hems and haws a lot when we actually play. My cleric player, on the other hand, doesn't even seem convinced that his class can do as much as I tell him it can. I'm actually considering letting him play as a druid - that way he can still cast divine magic, but also smash face with an animal form when he wants.

Druid are much more easy for new players, indeed.

What level are they?
What books do you allow?

[Totema]

Druid are much more easy for new players, indeed.

What level are they?
What books do you allow?

They reached 3rd level last week. And I'm encouraging this group to stick to Core until they are skilled enough to branch out.

[Rubik]

Use psionics. It's MUCH more newbie-friendly than those weird, counterintuitive spell slots, and augmentation ensures that powers remain useful throughout one's career.

Ensure that healing items are plentiful during early levels, since Body Adjustment (for some headache-inducing reason) isn't readily available until level 5.

[Totema]

Use psionics. It's MUCH more newbie-friendly than those weird, counterintuitive spell slots, and augmentation ensures that powers remain useful throughout one's career.

Ensure that healing items are plentiful during early levels, since Body Adjustment (for some headache-inducing reason) isn't readily available until level 5.

This is an interesting idea, although psionics doesn't mesh quite as neatly with my setting as magic does. But as I recall, one of our fellow GitPers wrote a very detailed guide to converting 3.5's spellcasting system to use spell points. I may ask them what they think about that.

[Zweisteine]

Playing a sorceror or favored soul is much easier for a beginner than playing a wizard or cleric. Limited spell lists mean preparation is never an issue, and more slots equals less boredom.

Just be sure to let them retrain spells a bit more often, as they'll undoubtable find that they don't like the spells they learned (also, if you bring in favored soul, don't also bring in other materials from outside core, as that can be overwhelming.


Another idea, at least for the cleric, is to help the player build a melee cleric. They can cast a buff or two at the beginning of the fight (a standard buff for each fight, maybe bless or magic weapon), then wade into the fight and do normal fighting.

If they want more spammable magic, try bringing in reserve feats. Just remember that they are rather weak, and that the prerequisites aren't actually low.

That's the best I've got.

Pre-edit: Also, Incarnum maybe, but it's a whole subsystem you'd have to introduce them to.

[The Trickster]

Try using classes that are spontaneous casters, but have a specific spell list (beguiler, for example). This still gives you a powerful caster, but also other class features to play with.

[Rubik]

This is an interesting idea, although psionics doesn't mesh quite as neatly with my setting as magic does. But as I recall, one of our fellow GitPers wrote a very detailed guide to converting 3.5's spellcasting system to use spell points. I may ask them what they think about that.The only way psionics doesn't mesh well with a setting is if the DM insists that psionics must be sci-fi and can't just be "magic with slightly different spells." After all, you're impressing your will on reality. The only measurable difference is that the system is far more flexible with a lot fewer loopholes to exploit.

[Neknoh]

Prepare a spell deck for them.

A quick summary of every spell relevant to their class, choices, party and place in the campaign, with casting values and save checks and effects and requirements and everything they need, including a page ref number.

Make sure to keep the decks relatively small, prefferably with multiple cards of the good spells.

Now you can either have the players draw blindly when they have to prepare a spell, now tell the player "That spell is good, but you could swap it for X to get more Boom/Heal out of your casts today."

That way, players prepare their three/four/five/ten spells randomly each day and replace one or two IF they want to based on how well you sell the replacement. This way, they have a limited number of spells to cast, they don't have to mull over big spell-lists and casting spells suddenly plays like a game of Magic the Gathering or even a game of Hearthstone, it's quick and intuitive. You cast a spell and it's back in the deck with it, lowering your pool, aiding with book-keeping, and it also gives you a great overview of what your spells can and can't do.

Furthermore, with a small selection of spells but several copies of each, players will swiftly learn what the small selection of spells do. You can later introduce more spells, or have the players prepare their own "Starting hands" by choosing each card if they turn secure enough to do it swiftly.

"I want three fireballs and a mage armour. I can pick either a magic missile or a blahdiblah as my last spell."
"I'd go blahdiblah."
"Yea, probably."
"Ok, let's go."
"But I'm not sure."
"Then you can try MM next time. You enter the dungeon, the walls smell of cotton candy and..."

[JusticeZero]

Work with them to come up with a standard loadout for the day. Unless they want to rearrange it, they always use that standard loadout.

[Maginomicon]

You could switch them to the Generic Spellcaster classes. (Wizard--> Generic Arcane Spellcaster; Cleric --> Generic Divine Spellcaster).

You could also switch them to Incarnum classes.

[DMVerdandi]

definitely switch to the spell point system.
prepared spellcasters smoke spontaneous in the variant. they keep the variety, but every spell they pick can be casted all day (they all get spirit shaman mechanics).

this means they only pick the good spells once, and can cast them any time. need mage armor? prepare it. so long as you have the spell points you can cast it. so if a wizard wants to buff the whole party, he doesnt need to prepare it 4 times.
saves so much time on book-keeping, and lowers the difficulty, especially at low level.
plus mp is superior

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd go with simply letting them swap wizard for sorcerer and cleric for favored soul. Spontaneous casting is -much- more user-friendly and easier to keep track of.

Wizard is one of the most complex classes in the game to play well, exceeded only really by artifiicer. Cleric's a bit easier than those but still pretty tough.

Oh and for the sake of all that's good and holy don't pigeon-hole the cleric into being a healbot. Give 'em some wands of cure light wounds and remind them that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Kill the enemy fast and hard and then worry about healing unless its looking like they won't survive the battle without in-combat healing.

[hymer]

My suggestion is to simply let them switch to some other characters that have much less or no spellcasting. A Warlock for the wizard and a Dragon Shaman for the cleric, for instance.

[Zirconia]

I would say working with the sorcerer/spontaneous divine caster is a good option, and agreed that letting them change out more than one spell per level is good as they get a feel for the options. That way the analysis of possibilities is between sessions, not during them, slowing everything down, but they won't be completely paralyzed by trying to choose when leveling because there are more "do-overs".

The downside of the druid route is now you have a huge selection of things to wild shape into, which is just as paralyzing in combat as a huge selection of spells. Similarly, consider ruling out any of the polymorph type spells.

And while the handbooks are useful for somewhat experienced players who understand what a comment about scaling saving throws means, for example, a lot of them will read as greek to someone who has NEVER played D&D, unless they have a lot of experience with other rpgs. MMOs may or may not count, many people play them without ever learning a thing about the mechanics behind them, since the computer handles that.

[Urpriest]

Spontaneous and limited-list casters are definitely a better choice for new players. Knowing what I know now, I would pretty much always give a new player a Beguiler if they asked for a Wizard. Cleric is trickier obviously, but Druid won't help unless the player is really keen on learning all of the monster rules in detail. Something like Crusader might be a more viable Cleric-replacement in this context, actually.

[Yawgmoth]

It's the OPTIONS that are paralyzing, not the actual act of casting spells. Choice Paralysis (http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html) is a well-documented concept for many professional circles. Everyone who intends on designing or selling anything ought to watch that video.

[Slipperychicken]

You could let them all play martial characters, and just have them fully heal each time they rest, or gain a healbot NPC cohort to handle their healing. I hear such groups are much easier to GM for anyway :smallbiggrin:

If they all want to be beatsticks and you don't want a DMPC, then you could have them find a bunch of Healing Belts to make up for it.

[Yawgmoth]

You could let them all play martial characters, and just have them fully heal each time they rest, or gain a healbot NPC cohort to handle their healing. I hear such groups are much easier to GM for anyway :smallbiggrin:

If they all want to be beatsticks and you don't want a DMPC, then you could have them find a bunch of Healing Belts to make up for it. Or give them all the (massively overpriced) silithar graft Healing Blood.

[HunterOfJello]

1. Don't have anyone play a prepared spellcaster on their first time through.

2. Get them some spell sheets that list the name and important info about each spell they have. Make them fill out the sheet themselves. It's a generally good idea to have a player always fill out their own sheets and information, since they learn the information through the process of filling the sheet out.

There are a number of good sheets online. http://www.irossco.com/dnd/dnd_3.0_spell_sheet.pdf is a decent example. Having sheets like this readily available will speed up the entire process significantly.