PDA

View Full Version : My Wizard lost his spell book (HELP!!!)



AwfulLawful
2007-01-23, 10:25 AM
In our campaign my elf wiz1/rog1 has been trapped in a huge dungeon, and the bad guys who put him there have also taken his spellbook - no chance of getting it back.

My feat is Point Blank Shot, useful in combination with ray spells and my longbow (which was also taken from me :smallfrown: )

We're about to advance in level, and I don't know what is the best thing to do.

I'd like to take a wizard level (the rogue part was meant to be some character background), but without my spell book I'll only have my two newly researched spells to cast.

Any ideas which two spells to choose? I thought about taking Mage Armor and Grease (Armor for protection and Grease to trip opponents and make them flat-footed).

When it comes to my 3rd lvl feat, I'm completely lost. Thought about Combat Casting, but I'd really like to stay out of combat, also considered Precise Shot, but that's almost useless without my bow and/or ray spells.

Please help me, it's the first time I'm playing a wizzie so I could really use some good ideas.

tarbrush
2007-01-23, 10:28 AM
Spell mastery would seem like a good idea if you have no spellbook?

Oh, and comabt casting is hot favourite in the 'Worst feat ever" competition, right up there with toughness and monkey grip. Take Skill Focus: concentration if you need more concentration ranks as SFC applies all the time whereas combat casting doesn't.

Also, see here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500 for all your wizarding needs.

Deus Mortus
2007-01-23, 10:30 AM
Well if you have a mean DM like that, this feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellMasterySpecial) might help...

jjpickar
2007-01-23, 10:36 AM
Wow, that is a mean DM. Magic missile might be a good choice since you might need some more fire power. But really, destroying a spellbook? It would take weeks to replace something like that according to the standard spell scribing rules (see OOTS "Power Word Annoy"). Personally, I think you should either vote the DM out of power or leave the group because if he wants to totally hack you up at that low level then there's more of that ahead.:smallfrown:

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 10:50 AM
Yes, what a horrible DM. He used the weakness of a class against it. The horror, the horror. That's like using will save spells against a fighter.... or sending a rogue against undead. How COULD he?

However, I agree that Spell Mastery would seem to be a good idea.

Deus Mortus
2007-01-23, 10:52 AM
Yes, what a horrible DM. He used the weakness of a class against it. The horror, the horror. That's like using will save spells against a fighter.... or sending a rogue against undead. How COULD he?

It wouldn't be so bad againts an eperienced wiz, but like the OP said, he just has one level in it and is entirely new to the class, so as a DM I wouldn't have done it...

Caelestion
2007-01-23, 10:52 AM
To be fair Nexx, the fighter will face other saves and the rogue can always leave the undead alone. A wizard without his spellbook is pretty much hosed (or with Spell Mastery becomes an even weaker sorcerer than the Sorcerer).

The_Werebear
2007-01-23, 10:54 AM
Yes, what a horrible DM. He used the weakness of a class against it. The horror, the horror. That's like using will save spells against a fighter.... or sending a rogue against undead. How COULD he?

However, I agree that Spell Mastery would seem to be a good idea.

Not quite. Taking a spellbook is pretty much resetting the character. It puts them down to half BAB, no armor, and no utility.

It would be like sending the fighter in without armor or weapons.

Anyway, spell mastery would be good. At least he pulled these shenanigans when you were low level. If he had done it at level 5, then he would really be an utter bastard.

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 10:58 AM
My feat is Point Blank Shot, useful in combination with ray spells and my longbow (which was also taken from me :smallfrown: )

Naked fighter.

Naked wizard/rogue.

Both are 3rd level.

Wizards have a weakness. It is not being an evil DM to exploit it. In fact, I think smart DMs should start targeting those disintergrates, not at the wizards, but at their Handy Haversacks.


EDIT: Completely tangential, but the OP's handle reminds me of something one of my fellow players once said. Someone asked about another person's alignment, and he said "I'll give you a hint. It starts with 'L', ends with 'd', and has 'awful goo' in the middle."

Levant
2007-01-23, 11:03 AM
Wow, that is a mean DM. Magic missile might be a good choice since you might need some more fire power. But really, destroying a spellbook? It would take weeks to replace something like that according to the standard spell scribing rules (see OOTS "Power Word Annoy"). Personally, I think you should either vote the DM out of power or leave the group because if he wants to totally hack you up at that low level then there's more of that ahead.:smallfrown:

That's pretty childish really, getting upset about something like that. If he was really mean he would have simply put him in a situation where the only result could be death. Just bite the bullet on this one and prepare for the worst next time, like a wizard ought to. Keep two copies of all your spells, one with you and one somewhere else. When you get high enough for a long distance teleport spell, it won't hurt too badly if you lose your book the next time.

Edit: just a quick note - there are monsters out there that destroy weapons and armor and nobody weeps for the poor fighter who may lose his hard earned gear to them. Dust yourself off and walk it off.

Charity
2007-01-23, 11:03 AM
Maybe the DM is just demonstrating that caution needs to be taken over your most precious item. Better he does it at 1st than later on.
Without knowing the in's and outs who's to say it was too harsh... anywho go use Logic Ninja's guide, it really is pretty good.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-01-23, 11:04 AM
Yes, though its a mean trick, this is D&D. Its all mean tricks! Honestly, does this mean that the bad guys when removing all your stuff to put you in jail should 'conveniently' leave the wizard his spellbook? I mean, Come ON. I, as a 'player', would take issue with such cheese.

Now, I play an archivist who requires a 'prayer book'. His 'book' is actually silk swathes for what he uses as underwear. Just wraps it about himself. The spells are drawn upon or sewn into the silk. He of course attempts to keep the spell bits on the inside where no one else would notice, as well as being worn under his clothes.

So this way if he is possibly captured its not nearly as likely that he'll have it taken away.

NEO|Phyte
2007-01-23, 11:05 AM
Now, I play an archivist who requires a 'prayer book'. His 'book' is actually silk swathes for what he uses as underwear. Just wraps it about himself. The spells are drawn upon or sewn into the silk. He of course attempts to keep the spell bits on the inside where no one else would notice, as well as being worn under his clothes.

So this way if he is possibly captured its not nearly as likely that he'll have it taken away.
but what happens if you soil yourself?

Caelestion
2007-01-23, 11:06 AM
It's like putting the monk in cursed full plate, a la the Man in the Iron Mask. If he wanted to play an arcane caster without a spellbook indefinitely, he'd have chosen a sorcerer. I don't have a problem with destroying equipment, but deliberately destroying all their class abilities forever is rather pointless.

Deus Mortus
2007-01-23, 11:07 AM
but what happens if you soil yourself?

You make me cry

jjpickar
2007-01-23, 11:07 AM
It's not very fun to be naked for any class. :smallfrown: Well, maybe a bard:smalltongue: . But seriously, I might have over reacted. Still. it's not like this was a random fortune in battle. Instead this was the DM using the power of "I determine your reality and in your reality you must suffer." He didn't have to crush the class but he did anyway.
There is still hope however, he probably didn't take the spell book away forever. He probably just wanted to make you feel a sense of risk in adventuring (a character can die at anytime after all). Having instilled said fear of loss, he may allow you to recover the precious tome.

Or he could blow you up with an atom bomb. After all, it's at the the DM's discretion.

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 11:09 AM
Now, I play an archivist who requires a 'prayer book'. His 'book' is actually silk swathes for what he uses as underwear. Just wraps it about himself. The spells are drawn upon or sewn into the silk. He of course attempts to keep the spell bits on the inside where no one else would notice, as well as being worn under his clothes.


I'll say that, as a DM, I wouldn't let this fly for your entire book.

1) It's a prayerbook, and therefore assumed to have a degree of sacredness, even to the non-sectarian Archivist. Swaddling your bum with it is a bit profane. Remove Fear is not, after all, 100% effective.

2) That's an awful lot of pages. I'd let you keep some emergency spells that way, but not the whole thing.

On the other hand, points for creativity.

EDIT: Cael, who said anything about forever? Other people have spellbooks. There will be scrolls. There will be ways to regain a spellbook that has been lost. Heck, he doesn't even know that the book, itself, is destroyed... just taken.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-23, 11:10 AM
but what happens if you soil yourself?

He needs an atonement spell.

And a change.

Levant
2007-01-23, 11:10 AM
It's like putting the monk in cursed full plate, a la the Man in the Iron Mask. If he wanted to play an arcane caster without a spellbook indefinitely, he'd have chosen a sorcerer. I don't have a problem with destroying equipment, but deliberately destroying all their class abilities forever is rather pointless.

He can get another book..he can learn new spells aside from the ones he gets every level. This is like a fighter getting his nice shiny new masterwork greatsword sundered and calling foul. All is fair play in D&D.

AmberVael
2007-01-23, 11:10 AM
Yet another disturbing DnD idea from VT... spellbook underwear. I'll go with the tattoo wizard variant myself.
Or a sorcerer. I just really do not like playing wizards, the spell preparation gets on my nerves.

Anywho... Spell Mastery is a good idea in case something like this happens. Its not going to save you, but it will make you less useless and able to do something.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-01-23, 11:17 AM
I'll say that, as a DM, I wouldn't let this fly for your entire book.

1) It's a prayerbook, and therefore assumed to have a degree of sacredness, even to the non-sectarian Archivist. Swaddling your bum with it is a bit profane. Remove Fear is not, after all, 100% effective.

2) That's an awful lot of pages. I'd let you keep some emergency spells that way, but not the whole thing.

On the other hand, points for creativity.
Its only underwear in that it is under his normal clothing. And actually, in some cultures certain 'under wear' is considered holy. Can anyone say Prayer Shawl?

Ok, does it sound better if I call them 'silk wrappings'?

Wolf53226
2007-01-23, 11:26 AM
Yes, it sounds much better.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-23, 11:35 AM
I think we really need to know more about this situation before we judge the DM. Is your spellbook irrevocably gone? Forever? Or just until you find the guys who took it? Also, was there something you could realistically have done to save the spellbook?

@MrNexx: While I agree that it's the DMs job to provide the players with challenges that may exploit their weaknesses, a wizard's spellbook is sort of a tricky situation. For one thing, wizards do have other weaknesses, esp. at low levels. Terrible HP, low fort save spring to mind. Second, there's no way to scale the penalty. You either have your spellbook, and work as normal, or it's gone - and you're a commoner. This is in contrast to the fighter, who even if his equipment is stolen (and especially at low levels, where he won't have a bunch of custom magic) can perform decently. He still has his full BAB, his HP, and his combat feats. Plus he can grab a rusty longsword and some leather off the first orc he kills, and be on his way back to full effectiveness. Similarly, rogues are good to have around for lots of reasons other than sneak attack. Even if you're in a dungeon full of nothing but undead, you'll want traps disabled, locks picked, and rooms scouted out. The rogue doesn't go from helpful to completely useless just because he can't sneak attack for awhile. Plus, he doesn't have to spend a bunch of time and money replacing his sneak attack.

Again, I'm not saying DMs should treat spellbooks as somehow inviolable. But they have to be aware that it's a major blow. It also makes me suspicious when it happens at level 2. When a wizard is level 15, and his spellbook is stolen, there's much more he could have done to save it. He can kick himself for not having the Logic Ninja's spellbook-trapping scheme in place, not having a backup spellbook, whatever. At level 2, what's he going to do? "oh, I guess I should have had a better Spot check?"

Telonius
2007-01-23, 11:36 AM
Okay, to the OP... what you ought to do depends on the situation. Exactly how far away from civilization are you? Are we talking a session or two before you can buy another spellbook, or are you pretty much in for 5 or 6 more levels? If you have any chance of getting back to someplace you can buy a new spellbook by the time you get to 4th level, stick with Wizard. But if not, you might consider taking a few levels of Sorcerer. (Yes, I know. Blasphemy, horror, etc. But if the situation is really that dire, and there's no other way to get the spells, it could be necessary.) For feats, I'd suggest Practiced Spellcaster or Spell Mastery (Mastery only if you're still a wizard).

Caelestion
2007-01-23, 12:03 PM
He can get another book..he can learn new spells aside from the ones he gets every level. This is like a fighter getting his nice shiny new masterwork greatsword sundered and calling foul. All is fair play in D&D.
Well, the fighter isn't required to buy his armour one piece at a time and he isn't required to build his sword before he can remake it. Wizards can only scribe one spell per day I believe.

@ Nexx: True enough. "Forever" is a little strong, but as regards that one piece of equipment, the wizard is as feat- or equipment-dependent as the poor old fighter is.

silvermesh
2007-01-23, 12:20 PM
um.. not sure what part of "trapped in dungeon, badguys have spellbook" is bad DMing. this is an easy, safe kind of adventure for a low level wizard to get through without having to enter dangerous combat situations. the DM probably liked your roguely backstory, and wants nothing more than for you to sneak around this dungeon, causing as little ruckus as possible, trying to find the book. If you want to go wizard, go wizard. you will get your spellbook back unless you find the exit and you yourself make the decisiopn that you don't care enough about your book to go about finding it.

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 12:20 PM
To your point, Spider Brigade, this is not a pure wizard... this is an elven rogue/wizard, meaning he is not helpless without his spellbook... merely less useful. He can use two martial melee weapons, at least, and two martial bows, in addition to the usual wizard fare, and he still has sneak attack and the rogue weapon proficiencies.

although
2007-01-23, 12:40 PM
In our campaign my elf wiz1/rog1 has been trapped in a huge dungeon, and the bad guys who put him there have also taken his spellbook - no chance of getting it back.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't see anything unfair here -- losing a spellbook is a helluva blow to a wizard, but he can replace it over time. Rebuilding his library could actually be a very interesting roleplaying experience: seeking out arcane guilds and independent wizards, striking unusual bargains in return for new spells, and making creative use of a small array of spells in the meantime.

The thing that would worry me, though, is the "trapped in a huge dungeon" bit. If the campaign is going to consist (at least for quite a while) of an extended crawl through this single dungeon, then the DM needs to make sure that everyone, including the wizard, has access to the basic resources they need to make their character worth playing. For the wizard, this might be as simple as finding a moldering spellbook on the body of a previous explorer, and occasionally capturing an arcane scroll or two from enemies later on.

Morty
2007-01-23, 12:58 PM
Taking the spellbook away isn't bad itself, but you should be able to get it back, I think. Sure, taking away spellbook is probably one of the best ways to shut down wizard, but if it involves screwing character almost completely... it's wrong.

Sahegian
2007-01-23, 01:23 PM
He is a level 1 wizard. What is his spell book actually going to cost him? Yeah it is going to suck for a bit, but it wasn't like the book was full of spells that would take months to rescribe even if cost was no issue.

Once he gets somewhere that he can find a spell book and a few simple scrolls he is back in business in a week for less than the cost of a +1 weapon.

To the OP I would say continue to level according to whatever plan you had in mind. It seems unlikely that this segment of the adventure is going to dominate very much of your time and spending feats or levels for this one particular situation is probably not as beneficial as a feat or level that will benefit you for the rest of the character.

Find a weapon and get sneaking and backstabbing :P

Telonius
2007-01-23, 01:36 PM
Okay, 100gp per page, 1 page per zero or first level spell. Wizard starts with all cantrips and 3+Int first levels. (I'm guessing there will be +4, so 7).

There are 19 cantrips, +7 first level spells. Subtracting Read Magic, which doesn't need to be prepared, that sets him back 2500 gp and 25 days (assuming all checks succeed) to reproduce the lost spellbook.

EDIT: And that's if he somehow finds all of the scrolls for the spells, or another wizard lets him copy the book for free. If the other wizard charges for it, that's another 350gp (or 1250 if the DM counts 0th level spells as 1st level spells to determine the fee for copying).

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 01:41 PM
You've got a point, Telonious. Wizards start out WAY ahead on the WBL. They should be cut back to starting gold, same as everyone else.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-23, 02:22 PM
You've got a point, Telonious. Wizards start out WAY ahead on the WBL. They should be cut back to starting gold, same as everyone else.
So wizards wouldn't even get to have a spellbook until they could buy one? Would they still get the free spells as they level up, or would they have to pay to put those in their book as well?

If you're dropping the wizard back to starting gold (3d4x10) he can afford a blank spellbook (100 pages, 15 GP) and scribe at most a single spell into it. And have 5 gold left over. Odds are he won't even be able to afford to put a spell in it, as his average is 75 gold. So until he's killed some kobolds or whatever, your wizard can cast...read magic. Woo!

Saph
2007-01-23, 02:27 PM
You've got a point, Telonious. Wizards start out WAY ahead on the WBL. They should be cut back to starting gold, same as everyone else.

Yeah, we just noticed this when the party bard "acquired" a 1st-level wizard's spellbook. It was a surprise to add it up and realise how valuable it was, even with only the starting spells.

- Saph

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 02:39 PM
Just pointing out that if you're going to complain about the cost of replacing a wizard's spellbook, you should also note that they start with a very expensive item. If Telonious's numbers are right (and I have no reason to doubt them), then a wizard starts with something equal to a +1 weapon in value, or a bag of holding.

Caelestion
2007-01-23, 02:44 PM
It's also the equivalent of complaining that certain Star Wars aliens start with envirosuits or breathing apparatuses. They need to!

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-23, 02:48 PM
The spell book is a tricky issue. Remember that the spells only cost the amount that they do so that a wizard doesn't gain every spell possible for nothing. The cost of a spell doesn't count against wbl because it doesn't for the other casting classes, and wizards should be playable from level one(later levels should prob. be nerfed, considering their overall power). I mean if your going to count the free by level spells, what about feats? The fighter gets a whole bunch of feats, and they are pretty expensive if you go by the magical item costs in the DMG.

Person_Man
2007-01-23, 02:49 PM
Stick with your original build as if you hadn't lost your spell book, and do everything you can to directly escape the dungeon. Don't bother figuring out the plot line. Don't explore rooms. Just escape. Then you can buy/adventure to get a spellbook, and come back to seek revenge.

Make sure your DM knows that you will be coming back to seek revenge. That way, it will be far less likely that he'll try and stop you for spiteful reasons (this is the campaign I wrote, damn it, you must stay in the dungeon!), and when you reach higher levels and are more powerful then non-casters in the party, you can claim that you earned it by sucking so much early on.

Telonius
2007-01-23, 02:57 PM
Just pointing out that if you're going to complain about the cost of replacing a wizard's spellbook, you should also note that they start with a very expensive item. If Telonious's numbers are right (and I have no reason to doubt them), then a wizard starts with something equal to a +1 weapon in value, or a bag of holding.

They do start out with a jump on WBL. But the wizard's also going to have a bunch of costs throughout his career that other characters aren't going to have: copying new spells into his spellbook (apart from ones he gets on levelling up), buying more spellbooks (or a Blessed Book) when his current book is filled up, any item-crafting that doesn't come out of the group fund, that kind of thing.

Wizard_Tom
2007-01-23, 03:22 PM
I somewhat sympathize with AwfulLawful. I'm having a similar problem in a campaign I'm in. I'm playing a home-brewed class (see Gun Mage in my sig). We started the game at 3rd level with no equipment or anything. This leaves my character as a fighter without feats and martial weapon profs. We started as slaves. We were rescued and most of the party at least got marginally equipped. Of course, i still had no gun or powder or bullets. In our game, I'm ok with this for now, but if too many sessions go by without a chance to get what i need to play the class, then I will be quite upset.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't see taking a wizard's spellbook as bad in and of itself, but if the wizard isn't given the chance to replace it then the DM is just being a jerk.

On the topic of wizard support...

Well i'm a big fan of wizards compared to by-the-book sorcerers, but i frequently take spell mastery for the most utility spells. I also don't like metamagic or item creation, so i tend to take spell mastery for my bonus feat each time. Knock is always on my list of spell mastered spells, as is invisibilty when i get up there. Basically, I don't spell master offensive spells. Instead I master spells that will let me escape if I ever do lose my precious spellbook.

AwfulLawful
2007-01-23, 04:18 PM
:smallfrown: My character died this evening, beaten to death by a giant maggot. But thanks anyway guys.

But to clarify the story about the spellbook:

We started out by being captured by some sort of Dragon Kin, who beat us in combat and told us to leave our gear (weapons, armor, backpack etc.). We were then thrown into a small dungeon which held several other prisoners. After a few days Dragon Guy comes back and leads us towards a stationary portal of some sort.
I make a distraction, so the two other partymembers can escape and find our equipment. They succeed and follow through the portal. Once through I'm goaded into an old abandoned mine alongside the other prisoners.
My teammates camp outside the mine in a safe distance, but the next morning they are discovered and, after a short fight, thrown into the mine as well. They get to keep all their armor/weapons but they don't have time to pick up my things which they dropped in the fight.
The Dragon Thingie was guarding the entrance, and the mine is just the beginning of a very large dungeon adventure (Ruins of the Dragon Lord).

I asked my GM after the session, and he told me that we wouldn't get out of the dungeon for a loooong time. And to make things worse none of our characters had any paper I could write my new spells on.

But at least I died saving our bard :smallsmile:

Vance_Nevada
2007-01-23, 04:20 PM
In fact, I think smart DMs should start targeting those disintergrates, not at the wizards, but at their Handy Haversacks.

Of course, in most situations this isn't smart DMing, it's metagaming. No sane enemy is going to think "If I destroy his Haversack, he won't be able to cast spells tomorrow! Of course, that doesn't help me right now, and now he's going to kill me. Oh dear. Still, at least I made somebody else's job easier tomorrow." <dead>

While there are situations where it might happen - fanatical devotees of a BBEG who don't care if they die, that sort of thing, it's likely that 99% of your encounters will resort to the expediency of "Kill the guy before he kills me" rather than "Get rid of guy's spellbook so he can't do anything tomorrow, but can kill me now while I don't target him."

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 04:25 PM
Of course, in most situations this isn't smart DMing, it's metagaming. No sane enemy is going to think "If I destroy his Haversack, he won't be able to cast spells tomorrow! Of course, that doesn't help me right now, and now he's going to kill me. Oh dear. Still, at least I made somebody else's job easier tomorrow." <dead>

While there are situations where it might happen - fanatical devotees of a BBEG who don't care if they die, that sort of thing, it's likely that 99% of your encounters will resort to the expediency of "Kill the guy before he kills me" rather than "Get rid of guy's spellbook so he can't do anything tomorrow, but can kill me now while I don't target him."

Disintegrate + Quickened Dimension Door. Order of operations is everything.

Neo
2007-01-23, 04:32 PM
well DMs should follow what it says in the DMG, you should try make things challenging but still fun for your players. If I had my class crippled at every opportunity i'd just work with my party members to get back to a town asap to get it fixed, campaign be damned. DMs who constantly do it will earn vendettas from players who decide to gain their amusement by screwing up your campaign at every opportunity.

Telonius
2007-01-23, 04:46 PM
:smallfrown: My character died this evening, beaten to death by a giant maggot. But thanks anyway guys.

But to clarify the story about the spellbook:

We started out by being captured by some sort of Dragon Kin, who beat us in combat and told us to leave our gear (weapons, armor, backpack etc.). We were then thrown into a small dungeon which held several other prisoners. After a few days Dragon Guy comes back and leads us towards a stationary portal of some sort.
I make a distraction, so the two other partymembers can escape and find our equipment. They succeed and follow through the portal. Once through I'm goaded into an old abandoned mine alongside the other prisoners.
My teammates camp outside the mine in a safe distance, but the next morning they are discovered and, after a short fight, thrown into the mine as well. They get to keep all their armor/weapons but they don't have time to pick up my things which they dropped in the fight.
The Dragon Thingie was guarding the entrance, and the mine is just the beginning of a very large dungeon adventure (Ruins of the Dragon Lord).

I asked my GM after the session, and he told me that we wouldn't get out of the dungeon for a loooong time. And to make things worse none of our characters had any paper I could write my new spells on.

But at least I died saving our bard :smallsmile:

Ah well. Monk or Warlock, next time, right? :smallbiggrin:

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 04:47 PM
And there's a difference between "destroying a wizard's spellbook" and "destroying a wizard's spellbook at every opprotunity."

I'm not saying that every ranger should take Favored Enemy: Spellbook and that you should have hoards of kleptomaniac bibliophiles (or pyromaniac bibliophobes) roaming the world... but the occasional flash of flame across parchment is not the mark of a killer DM.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-23, 05:09 PM
MrNexx, you are right in the fact that destroying a spell book once an awhile is Tokay, but look at what happened here in AwfulLawful's case. HE lost all class abilities of his primary class, and was told he would be able to recover them for a long time. I think this DM had a bad childhood experience with wizards and hold a grudge.

jjpickar
2007-01-23, 05:16 PM
After being made powerless through no fault of his own, the wizard is then subsequently beaten to death by a giant maggot.:smalleek: :smallfrown: :smallfrown:

I think the DM has a lot more to explain. It seems like he intentionally tried to kill or humiliate you. I guess you'll have to reroll and pray for mercy.:smallfrown:

Woot Spitum
2007-01-23, 05:20 PM
I agree that sometimes you have to get PC's out of their comfort zones in order to make the game more interesting, but to do that effectively, you first have to allow them to get into their comfort zone. How can one of your players learn to be a wizard if you take away his spellbook the moment the game starts?:smallconfused:

MrNexx
2007-01-23, 05:35 PM
MrNexx, you are right in the fact that destroying a spell book once an awhile is Tokay, but look at what happened here in AwfulLawful's case. HE lost all class abilities of his primary class, and was told he would be able to recover them for a long time. I think this DM had a bad childhood experience with wizards and hold a grudge.

No, look at what happened in AwfulLawful's case. He lost the spellbook of one of two classes he had... neither was primary at the point that he lost it, because he had two, and since rogue was supposed to be "background", it's not unreasonable to assume that it was his 1st level class and thus, arguably, primary (i.e. more skill points in that class's skills).

The party had a chance to recover his stuff. It, in fact, did recover his gear. The other members of the party then abandoned his gear. Unless the DM said "You dropped the OPs stuff while fighting," then it's not his fault that there's no spellbook.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-23, 06:06 PM
To the OP's Original Question: What class should I take?

My suggestion:

If you don't have access to your spellbook, you can always go Rog for the next level. This nets you Evasion, which will *ALWAYS* be invaluable to you. Also pick up some more stealthy skills to hopefully get your book back.

In fact, I'd go so far as to go Rog3. Why? Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm). Not only do you get full sneak attack and spell progression, you get the ability to declare an opponent flat footed AND ranged prestidigitation. Since you've already gotten one level of Rog, you might as well get 3, then continue progressing Wiz until you hit 3rd level spells, then AT for 10 levels, then finish out with Archmage so your progression looks like Rog3/Wiz5/AT10/AM2. At that point, you can cast 9th level spells, have a sneak attack of 8d6, all the skillmonkey skills plus the arcane skills, and have a couple of nifty abilities from AM (like changing elemental flavors on the fly or shaping AE spells).

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-23, 06:10 PM
It would seem from his posts that the only reason they left it is that they were suddenly attacked by a much more powerful person, so they had to flee. Also, if a no one else lost anything, and it seems the DM was trying to force the character into a skillmonkey, away from his caster. I would view this as a grudge.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-23, 06:13 PM
Ahahahaha!

Man, that's great. I've never heard of a DM doing that to a wizard. It's always me doing it to NPC wizards and making the DM upset. Good times, good times.

No, you're boned. Your whole class is worthless until you get a spellbook back/some sort of weapon/have that feat mentioned a while back that you don't have. I'd be a very grateful prisoner for now.

Ramza00
2007-01-23, 06:24 PM
Yet another disturbing DnD idea from VT... spellbook underwear. I'll go with the tattoo wizard variant myself.
Or a sorcerer. I just really do not like playing wizards, the spell preparation gets on my nerves.
Where is this variant located?

For future reference for mid level wizards (not that it helps you) at lvl 13 always have two spellbooks and instant summons on a copy of one of them.

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-23, 06:31 PM
Where is this variant located?


Complete arcane, near the back

Ramza00
2007-01-23, 06:31 PM
well DMs should follow what it says in the DMG, you should try make things challenging but still fun for your players. If I had my class crippled at every opportunity i'd just work with my party members to get back to a town asap to get it fixed, campaign be damned. DMs who constantly do it will earn vendettas from players who decide to gain their amusement by screwing up your campaign at every opportunity.

Bingo, underline parts for emphasis. A person's time is valuble, D&D should be fun.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-23, 06:33 PM
I use my DM powers to turn PC's against each other. I like to see them argue and fight :P

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-23, 06:35 PM
Um...I don't know if you've noticed, but his character has DIED. It's no use discussing ways to deal with the loss of his spellbook now he's lost his whole character.

Ramza00
2007-01-23, 06:35 PM
Complete arcane, near the back
Thanks, its in the "fluff" section page 186-187. Not bad just put two tattoos on your foot after taking 2 levels of geometer (so the spell will fit).

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-23, 06:36 PM
I use my DM powers to turn PC's against each other. I like to see them argue and fight :P
Our DM's don't even have to do anything for that to happen (most of the time).

Ramza00
2007-01-23, 06:38 PM
Um...I don't know if you've noticed, but his character has DIED. It's no use discussing ways to deal with the loss of his spellbook now he's lost his whole character.Even though his character died this thread doesn't have to die. While it may not help the original poster bring his charcter back to life, it will teach others new things. For example I learn about tattoo magic, something that can be very valuable as a backup for wizards.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-01-23, 07:11 PM
My suggestion for your next character:

Sorc5 (PhB II Variant)/MotAO4/Incantratix10/AM1

Congratulations, I can cast metamagic on the fly, have a crapton of metamagic feats, can pull any spell from the PhB of 7th level or lower out of my arse at any time I choose to, apply metamagic to aforementioned any spell in the book before launching it at anyone, and not only loose my dependancy on a spellbook while retaining 90% of the versitility but having more spells per day with which to rain down havoc and destruction upon my foes.

GM: I plot-cheeze and lock you up and take everything away from you. You are completely nude, chained, with a ball-gag to prevent you from speaking.

Sorc: Okay. Still, Silent Shatter. Everything less than 20 lbs within 5 feet of me is dust. That would include the ball gag and the chains. Quickened True Strike and Disintigrate the guard. Mage Hand the keys to the party Rogue, who should be out of his bonds by now and let him get everyone out of their bonds while I Force Wall the enterance to prevent anyone from attacking while we buff up and obtain whatever weapons we can find here. I then cast Greater Magic Weapon on the weapons at hand so the party meat shield and rogue has something magic to swing until we can recover their gear. Let's Rock.

Leon
2007-01-23, 08:31 PM
Backup books, level one or not its no excuse

Edit - Everyone should have backups of their important gear

Mewtarthio
2007-01-23, 08:36 PM
My suggestion for your next character:

Sorc5 (PhB II Variant)/MotAO4/Incantratix10/AM1

Congratulations, I can cast metamagic on the fly, have a crapton of metamagic feats, can pull any spell from the PhB of 7th level or lower out of my arse at any time I choose to, apply metamagic to aforementioned any spell in the book before launching it at anyone, and not only loose my dependancy on a spellbook while retaining 90% of the versitility but having more spells per day with which to rain down havoc and destruction upon my foes.

GM: I plot-cheeze and lock you up and take everything away from you. You are completely nude, chained, with a ball-gag to prevent you from speaking.

Sorc: Okay. Still, Silent Shatter. Everything less than 20 lbs within 5 feet of me is dust. That would include the ball gag and the chains. Quickened True Strike and Disintigrate the guard. Mage Hand the keys to the party Rogue, who should be out of his bonds by now and let him get everyone out of their bonds while I Force Wall the enterance to prevent anyone from attacking while we buff up and obtain whatever weapons we can find here. I then cast Greater Magic Weapon on the weapons at hand so the party meat shield and rogue has something magic to swing until we can recover their gear. Let's Rock.

GM: You're in an antimagic field.

Although, seriously, the guy's already level 20 in that build. Level 20 means really, really powerful.

Dark
2007-01-23, 08:41 PM
GM: You're in an antimagic field.

Although, seriously, the guy's already level 20 in that build. Level 20 means really, really powerful.
Level 20 also means the game is over, time to make new characters :)

MeklorIlavator
2007-01-23, 08:46 PM
Backup books, level one or not its no excuse

Edit - Everyone should have backups of their important gear

:smallconfused:How? the cost to remake a level 1 spell book is almost the entire wbl of a 3rd level character.

Even making just 1 spell is (25+100=125) 125 gp, and a wizards average starting gp is 75?

Maltrich
2007-01-24, 12:23 AM
To me, "You're locked up in a dungeon without your spellbook" to a Wiz1/Rog1 isn't a problem, it's a fun stealth challenge.

If you can kill one enemy without raising the alarm (to acquire a bladed weapon for stabbity death), then you're equipped as a rogue and good to go, espescially if you were able to conceal your lockpicks when searched. You leave behind anyone with you who didn't take ranks in Move Silently, and then try to escape. You get out, make it to a town, and try to raise help. You tell anybody who'll listen that you know where there's a dungeon just LOADED with treasure, and that if they help you free your friends you'll let them keep anything you find, except your spellbook. You may end up having to part with some loot, but it's the price you pay for getting caught. If you're evil, you can just kill your rescuers in their sleep later and take all their loot.

Ramza00
2007-01-24, 12:53 AM
Level 20 also means the game is over, time to make new characters :)
he starts to get the benefits of mage of arcane order at lvl 6. Knowing every lvl 1-3 spell in the PHB+ due to the spell pool. At MotAO 4 he knows every 1-6 lvl spell. Now he doesn't want to be using this versality all the time for it takes twice the spellslots due to spelldebt, but if his dm is going to be cruel, might as well have a back up plan.

Spontaneous Magic with Wizard 5/MotAO 4/Incantatrix 10/X 1 is a similar build but he has to survive the first 5 lvls with a cruel dm. This build though is simpler, stronger in the long run (with a normal game), requires less feats, and he can use about 10 or so pearl of power 1 to pay off spelldebt cheaply.

Of course the DM can always take his "trinket" focus that allows him to call the spellpool, but if the player decides on what his trinket is well enough and make it looks commonplace, there the only way the DM can remove the "trinket" from the player and thus his spellpower is through complete metagaming. If the DM does this the players have the right to riot.

Note also that a Mage of the Arcane Order can only use the spellpool to take a total of levels that are half his caster level. Thus a lvl 20 character can take a 9th lvl spell+1st lvl spell, two 5ths, 1 4th and 1 6th, etc.