Sniping and hiding. 3.5

[D4rkh0rus]

Can a character full attack then hide? what would it require?

Im trying to make a wisdom/dex based Archer/sniper.

It would go Rogue 3/Cloistered Cleric/Targeteer 1/Chameleon 10/Shiba protector 1

Persisting a bunch of spells like divine power and hunter's eye, etc.

Its gonna have the Phrenic Template.



I've been trying to cram as much dmg as possible into 1 shot, but it just isn't as high as I'd want it. If I wanna deal dmg as a ranged combatant I have to machinegun it. 4 attacks, Rapid shot, Haste = 6 Attacks + splitting = 12. Due to shiba protector and items/etc my hitting would be over the roof without power attack.

So, Taking a sample situation, in which I spend a few turns persisting/buffing up while hidden, then, while stationary, release hell on the enemy... Am I able to hide? (taking any negative modifiers, that doesn't matter).

[PurpleSocks]

RAW it cannot be done, you have to devote a move action to hide after your shot, the best that can be done is to take woodland archer and actually move with your move action.

Either talk to your DM for a homebrewed custom penalty to full attacks or find a magical way to remain unseen as the hide skill will not allow it.

I suppose epic uses of the hide skill let you hide someone else as a move, so you could get a super optimized hide cohort to let you full attack?

[TuggyNE]

Can a character full attack then hide? what would it require?

Hustle (PsyWar 2, Egoist 3) gives you the move action needed to Hide as a swift action. You'll also need concealment or cover, or else HiPS from some other source. I think concealing amorpha should do the trick.

[Adam...?]

Seems like it would be difficult to pull off.


Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Based on the reading of those rules, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to get multiple attacks a round while sniping. However, arguably if you could find a reliable way to get an extra move action during your turn (maybe a Belt of Battle?), you could make a full attack, then use a move action to attempt to hide again (probably using Bluff to distract your now-aware enemies).


Creating a Diversion to Hide
You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

However, another thing worth considering is just how useful the tactic actually is. I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure that if you make a full attack while hiding, you only get that delicious sneak attack damage on the first attack. After that, your opponent is aware of you, and gets his Dex to AC for the rest of your attacks.

[Darrin]

RAW it cannot be done, you have to devote a move action to hide after your shot, the best that can be done is to take woodland archer and actually move with your move action.


RAW it absolutely can be done. PHB p. 76:

"It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging."

It's not that hard to optimize your Hide check to the point where it still reliably works with a -20 penalty. Even with a -20 penalty, you still get to roll, and your enemies still have to make a Spot check. If you have multiple ranged attacks, then sniping isn't really an option, but if you still have cover/concealment and a way to hide while being observed (Hide in Plain Sight, Blend Into Shadows), then you can full attack and still hide.

If you want sneak attack on every hit, then make the Hide check after every attack roll to see if your next attack still gets sneak attack, otherwise just make another Hide roll after your full attack is done. Granted, it will be pretty obvious which square you're hiding in if you don't move, but you can probably throw a 5' step in there somewhere.

There's a entry in the FAQ somewhere that explains how a ranger with spring attack and camouflage can hide after attacking, but it doesn't explain it very well or consider the full implications of full attack + Hide in Plain Sight.

[Lightlawbliss]

... I'm not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure that if you make a full attack while hiding, you only get that delicious sneak attack damage on the first attack. After that, your opponent is aware of you, and gets his Dex to AC for the rest of your attacks.

it really just comes down to how you read the rules.

[thewiredone]

accelerated movement spell negates penalty as long as you move your normal speed. Spell from complete adventurer.

[Urpriest]

The rules are pretty clear-cut that you can hide while attacking (hence not "break hiding") by taking a -20 penalty to your hide check. The fact that you can also take a -20 penalty to do the same thing worse via sniping is due to game designer illiteracy, a terrible affliction.

[D4rkh0rus]

The rules are pretty clear-cut that you can hide while attacking (hence not "break hiding") by taking a -20 penalty to your hide check. The fact that you can also take a -20 penalty to do the same thing worse via sniping is due to game designer illiteracy, a terrible affliction.

So I can full attack while hidden and with a -20 to the hide check, I can remain hidden? hmm. hehehe.

[Duke of Urrel]

RAW it cannot be done, you have to devote a move action to hide after your shot, the best that can be done is to take woodland archer and actually move with your move action.

Actually, I believe (with Darrin and Urpriest) that the rules do allow you to try to stay hidden while taking a full attack action. This is not the same thing as sniping, though. Sniping, as I understand it, means making one ranged attack without trying to hide, then taking a move action to go into hiding again.


Either talk to your DM for a homebrewed custom penalty to full attacks or find a magical way to remain unseen as the hide skill will not allow it.

I suppose epic uses of the hide skill let you hide someone else as a move, so you could get a super optimized hide cohort to let you full attack?

I have a simple home-brewed solution to offer you and your DM for consideration.

Although I do not allow you to take a full attack action while you go into hiding,* I do allow you to try to stay hidden while you take this action. In order to succeed, you must make a Hide check at –20 for every attack roll you make. If an enemy’s Spot check beats any one of your Hide checks, you cannot hide from this enemy again until your next turn begins – not even if you have the ability to hide in plain sight – because this requires going into hiding, which I do not allow you to do either while you complete a full-attack action or while you take a five-foot step.

So for every Hide check at -20 that beats an enemy's Spot check, I would allow you to make another ranged attack that catches this enemy flat-footed, but you would lose this advantage as soon as your enemy spotted you.

Again, these are only my own house rules. I offer them to you and your DM for consideration.
__________________
* My reason for this is twofold.

Firstly, I don't allow you to go into hiding by taking a five-foot step, because I consider going into hiding always to require a move action, even if you travel no more than five feet. It's a case of a "hampered" move that you cannot take as easily as a five-foot step.


Secondly, even if you can hide in plain sight, I consider going into hiding always to require you to move at least five feet from your present position. If you don't move at least five feet, I reason that even if your Hide check beats every enemy’s Spot check, every enemy that formerly spotted you assumes, correctly, that you still occupy the space in which you were last seen, looks directly at this space, and automatically spots you again. These two rules effectively prohibit going into hiding while you take a full attack action, but not staying hidden.

[ericgrau]

Many people don't realize that the snipe option is pointless when you can get the exact same penalty on a full attack and hiding. Little trick hidden in there.

Hiding is generally done as part of movement by RAW and requires something to hide partially behind (cover or concealment) and not being in view before attempting it. Sniping has even more specific mechanics that you use to snipe. People like to take fuzzy rules like that and ignore them completely, then run things however they want. Travel devotion + hide-in-plain-sight might work for full attack => hide because it allows movement after a full round action and hiding after you've gone into view for a bit, but the fuzzy rule is fuzzy.

Generally sniping works well when solo at long range to avoid detection. If you're looking for damage in a party, why do you bother hiding anyway? Foes aren't going to travel hundreds of feet to reach you.

[Curmudgeon]

Can you still satisfy all the Hide skill requirements while attacking?

line of sight to the target
cover/concealment
not being observed
An ability like Ranger Camouflage will bypass the second requirement. An ability like Ranger Hide in Plain Sight will bypass the last requirement. The superior Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight bypasses both of them at once. If you've got something like these, you can attempt to Hide while attacking. If you don't have some form of Hide in Plain Sight you do need to use the Sniping option to Hide after attacking (not nearly as good as using HiPS to Hide while attacking).

That's what it comes down to.

[Tommy2255]

Can you still satisfy all the Hide skill requirements while attacking?

line of sight to the target
cover/concealment
not being observed
An ability like Ranger Camouflage will bypass the second requirement. An ability like Ranger Hide in Plain Sight will bypass the last requirement. The superior Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight bypasses both of them at once. If you've got something like these, you can attempt to Hide while attacking. If you don't have some form of Hide in Plain Sight you do need to use the Sniping option to Hide after attacking (not nearly as good as using HiPS to Hide while attacking).

That's what it comes down to.

How do you figure that list can't be fulfilled while attacking?

LoS: Obviously, or you wouldn't be able to shoot the guy.

Cover: you can shoot at someone who you have cover against. It's easy to shoot at someone through thick brush if you're right up against the brush and they're 20 feet away from it.

Not being observed: Here's the tricky bit. Even if you weren't being observed before the attack, your enemy can easily find where the arrows are coming from, but by RAW, you're still entitled to that -20 hide check, because "an arrow came from that direction" does not automatically tell you "an arrow was shot from that 5-foot square".

[Curmudgeon]

Not being observed: Here's the tricky bit. Even if you weren't being observed before the attack, your enemy can easily find where the arrows are coming from, but by RAW, you're still entitled to that -20 hide check, because "an arrow came from that direction" does not automatically tell you "an arrow was shot from that 5-foot square".
D&D has no facing, in any respect, so "from that direction" isn't a game concept. Either you're seen while attacking or your target doesn't have a clue. Attacking is a blatant act.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. Without Hide in Plain Sight you pretty much can't Hide while attacking. Your target would need to fail their "in plain sight" Spot check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#tableDifficultyClassExamples) (i.e., fail to observe you, even casually) for you to be allowed to Hide without HiPS.

[TuggyNE]

D&D has no facing, in any respect, so "from that direction" isn't a game concept.

Yes, it is, given the existence of cover or concealment that only works in certain directions.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

[D4rkh0rus]

Can you still satisfy all the Hide skill requirements while attacking?

line of sight to the target
cover/concealment
not being observed
An ability like Ranger Camouflage will bypass the second requirement. An ability like Ranger Hide in Plain Sight will bypass the last requirement. The superior Shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight bypasses both of them at once. If you've got something like these, you can attempt to Hide while attacking. If you don't have some form of Hide in Plain Sight you do need to use the Sniping option to Hide after attacking (not nearly as good as using HiPS to Hide while attacking).

That's what it comes down to.

Collar of umbral metamorphosis meets the last requirement, and decent range + hiding spot (sniper's nest of sorts?) would meet the second one.

[TuggyNE]

Collar of umbral metamorphosis meets the last requirement, and decent range + hiding spot (sniper's nest of sorts?) would meet the second one.

Tiny hut makes for a rather decent sniping nest, since it prevents you from being observed from without. (It's also large enough to 5' step around, if needed.)

[Zweisteine]

If you are an Arrow Demon, and have two Splitting Bows, you can make one effective attack that acts as four attacks at your highest BAB -2 (i.e. attack with one, demon power lets you simultaneously attack with the other bow, and splitting splits each arrow into two).

I mentioned this combo over in your other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326221), too (last post so far).

[D4rkh0rus]

If you are an Arrow Demon, and have two Splitting Bows, you can make one effective attack that acts as four attacks at your highest BAB -2 (i.e. attack with one, demon power lets you simultaneously attack with the other bow, and splitting splits each arrow into two).

I mentioned this combo over in your other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326221), too (last post so far).

Yea but how can I fluff it... cuz you know... Daemon. chances are ill get killed on sight.

[Khatoblepas]

Yea but how can I fluff it... cuz you know... Daemon. chances are ill get killed on sight.

Hat of Disguise. Anyone seeing through your disguise (with True Seeing) will probably see your real form underneath your polymorphed form.