Polishing up a Halfling Outrider

[Theomniadept]

As my other fellow players have decided on rogues, sorcerers, and a warmage going for Rainbow Servant I've decided instead to play a Halfling Outrider, and I'm looking for some help finishing this build,

The plan is as follows:

Slow. Both the Flaw and Trait (character will have this represented by a peg leg). Dunno about a second one of either just yet. I'm suspecting maybe Vulnerable as a flaw since as a halfling paladin I'll still have some AC to spare, whereas I don't see those other flaws as being very compensatable. As for the second trait, I may take something simple like Polite, unless there are better ones.

The Paladin levels are a combination of Paladin of Freedom and the non-spellcasting Complete Champion Variant. Let me know if these cannot be combined. Also, I'm not 100% settled on Paladin of Freedom but seeing as how Charisma can be dumped with this build (and the party will have plenty of Charisma already) and since the party's going to be somewhat morally questionable I think this will meet them halfway.

1. Paladin 1, Mounted Combat, Track, Ride-By Attack (2 flaw feats)
2. Paladin 2
3. Paladin 3, Spirited Charge
4. Paladin 4, Mounted Archery (gained from Complete Champion variant) Also taking the Planar Paladin substitution here to smite demons.
5. Paladin 5
6. Paladin 6 Planar Handbook Substitution for a celestial dog, Skill Focus (Manhandle Animal)
7. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1
8. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 1
9. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 2, Devoted Tracker (Dog ascends to paragonhood of all quadrapeds)
10. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 3
11. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 4
12. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 5, Natural Bond
13. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 6
14. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 7
15. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 8, ???
16. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 9
17. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10
18. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10/ Wild Plains Outrider 1, ???
19. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10/ Wild Plains Outrider 2
20. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10/ Wild Plains Outrider 3

One question I have is about being mounted from level 1: I know I can start with a regular dog, but if I keep that dog till level 5 can it become my paladin mount in place of the one the heavens would normally just throw at me? I mean technically I would get two dogs but if anyone has any source material on this stuff it would be greatly appreciated. I know that what I CAN do is keep the starting dog till I get Beastmaster, make it my starting dog the Animal Companion, and then use the feat Devoted Tracker to turn it into my Paladin Mount. At least I think I can do that...

Small side note: I will be training the dog to be a Warbeast in this game so he'll get those nice bonuses.

Where I placed three question marks I have no clue what feats would be best for the character in question. I was thinking proficiency with a Rider's Shield if that would be somewhat optimal since it would add shield enchantments to the mount simultaneously. Also, aside from Power Attack I'm not completely sold on what feats the dog should get.

As far as equipment goes the obvious is a lance, and if I get consensus on the rider's shield then that would be another piece but I'm not sold on a lot of magic items other than the Belt of Magnificence. Are there any relatively cheap magic items to pick up along the way? Also are there any specialty things for charging and whatnot? I think I recall a magic pair of boots that gave Spirited Charge when worn but I can't remember where I saw them.

That's all I can think of for now. Input is greatly appreciated.

[Urpriest]

You can't turn an existing dog into a warbeast since it's a matter of breeding, and you can't have something that's already a "war creature" like a warhorse or war-trained riding dog as a warbeast.

Technically, the Paladin Mount is summoned, while the animal companion is called from somewhere, so neither can be a preexisting creature. As a DM, I'd probably allow you to say something like "at 5th level the old dog was taken bodily up to Celestia (or Arborea for you I guess) and returned as a Paladin Mount", but that would be a houserule.

[Theomniadept]

You can't turn an existing dog into a warbeast since it's a matter of breeding, and you can't have something that's already a "war creature" like a warhorse or war-trained riding dog as a warbeast.

Under the Warbeast entry it says it takes two months with a DC 20 check to train an animal to gain the template. Plus, the name 'dog' doesn't imply anything other than being a dog.

As an afterthought if simply being trained to attack would count for being trained for war then technically the template could never be applied to any animal companion or paladin mount. Especially since the stat block listed is just for simple dogs, as there is no special entry for wardogs.

[Urpriest]

Under the Warbeast entry it says it takes two months with a DC 20 check to train an animal to gain the template. Plus, the name 'dog' doesn't imply anything other than being a dog.

No, it doesn't. It says it takes two months with a DC 20 check to train a warbeast. As in, to make a warbeast fight for you.

This is a really common misconception, but it's pretty easily dispelled by looking at the 3.0 Handle Animal rules. Logically, the warbeast template would make any animal domestic, since it explicitly is a template for creatures bred over many generations to serve for war. However, the section you're quoting says that instead, a warbeast is trained as the base creature, and then goes on to provide training DCs that are the same as the base DCs to train a domestic, wild, or magical beast creature, rather than the uniformly low domestic DCs you'd expect from the 3.0 Handle Animal rules.

If you think a bit harder, this really is the only way to make sense of the template. The template explicitly gives proficiency in armor only to trained warbeasts, which means there must also be untrained warbeasts. It also says you cannot train Vermin, but Vermin can have the template.

The only reason people have this misconception is from old optimization advice, since it's not at all implied by the template itself. Newer posts on this will invariably have someone come in to give this correction. So in general, try not to rely on old optimization advice for build ideas. :smallwink:

As for whether it's already a war animal, its combat entry does specifically mention that some riding dogs are trained for war. I suppose you could make a Warbeast out of one that isn't, but that would be akin to having a Warbeast Light Horse, which seems like a pretty low twisting of the rules.

[Theomniadept]

I must have misinterpreted that, I'll have to remember to try and get the DM to let me have the dog, but looking at the dog entry here, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm

It says "This category includes working breeds such as collies, huskies, and St. Bernards." It also says "If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry). A riding dog can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check."

So the animal can be trained for war, but is not inherently built for war. It's only a small entry but if you look at the description saying the riding dog is primarily a work dog it would seem Warbeast could easily be applied.

EDIT: also, from MM2: The Monster Manual describes a few “war creatures” that have qualities similar to those of a warbeast but differ from standard creatures of a given kind. These creatures are considered to already have a separate “war template” and cannot have the warbeast template added. For example, one cannot apply the warbeast template to a heavy warhorse.

This would imply there would be a separate dog template for a wardog, but since I have yet to see one (if it does exist let me know) I would assume warbeast can be applied to dogs. Thus it explicitly states you can't have a warbeast light horse because a light warhorse already exists, but there are no wardogs.

If you've played Dragon Age: Origins you'd see what I mean by the separate warbeast dog, as the Mabari from that game are clearly muscular dog-tanks as opposed to, say, the dogs of Skyrim that are all just regular dogs, even if they are trained to battle.

[Theomniadept]

Just spoke with the DM, and yes FR, Eberron, and ToB are indeed banned. We have been limited to one trait and one flaw, so the build has been set as thus:

Slow trait and flaw
1. Paladin 1, Mounted Combat, Track
2. Paladin 2
3. Paladin 3, Ride-By Attack
4. Paladin 4, Mounted Archery (gained from Complete Champion variant) Also taking the Planar Paladin substitution here to smite demons.
5. Paladin 5
6. Paladin 6 Planar Handbook Substitution for a celestial dog, Skill Focus (Manhandle Animal)
7. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1
8. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 1
9. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 2, Devoted Tracker
10. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 3
11. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 4
12. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 5, Natural Bond
13. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 6
14. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 7
15. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 8, Spirited Charge
16. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 9
17. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10
18. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10/ Wild Plains Outrider 1, Improved Mounted Archery
19. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10/ Wild Plains Outrider 2
20. Paladin 6/ Beastmaster 1/ Halfling Outrider 10/ Wild Plains Outrider 3

I think this is the most viable this build can get with the current restrictions. Although I don't know what feats to take for the dog I've got the basics down for the first 6 or 7 levels until I've decided on everything.

[Andezzar]

Why would you trade paladin spellcasting and the ability to use scrolls, wands, or other magic items that require access to a spell list for one bonus feat?

Since your building an ubermount, how about making the mount an charger?
Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper, Leap attack, Improved Natural Attack.

[Urpriest]

Why would you trade paladin spellcasting and the ability to use scrolls, wands, or other magic items that require access to a spell list for one bonus feat?

One thing to keep in mind, doing the build in this order is typically a very very feat-starved situation. That said, Paladin wands are nice.

[Andezzar]

You may want to look at the DMG on p. 204 f. and maybe take one of the alternate special mounts. Maybe even try to convince the DM to allow a normal wolf (instead of the dire wolf) as your special mount. That's a free Trip Attempt. With the massive STR your mount gets it might even succeed often.

[Urpriest]

You may want to look at the DMG on p. 204 f. and maybe take one of the alternate special mounts. Maybe even try to convince the DM to allow a normal wolf (instead of the dire wolf) as your special mount. That's a free Trip Attempt. With the massive STR your mount gets it might even succeed often.

A riding dog is basically uniformly better than a wolf in every way.

A Dire Wolf might be a worthwhile upgrade eventually though, that much is valid.

[Andezzar]

A riding dog is basically uniformly better than a wolf in every way.Wow, the wolf is indeed bad compared to the dog. Weird.

[Yomega]

I could not help picturing you raising your sword and yelling "I have the power~" and your dog turning kickass

[Andezzar]

If that is the case you should ride a dire tiger.

[Theomniadept]

Why would you trade paladin spellcasting and the ability to use scrolls, wands, or other magic items that require access to a spell list for one bonus feat?

Since your building an ubermount, how about making the mount an charger?
Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Shock Trooper, Leap attack, Improved Natural Attack.

Yeah, those feats look pretty good. I knew Improved Om Nom and Power Om Nom were pretty good but I forgot the dog can charge leap attack win.

I know it trades the wand casting ability but we are going to have a Dread Necromancer going into Rainbow Servant to serve all our divine magic needs. Ass far as regular magic needs we also have two sorcerers. Given the lack of feat slots available I felt getting a prerequisite for a prestige class would serve better than having a single level 1 Paladin spell with the ability to use very basic wands.


I could not help picturing you raising your sword and yelling "I have the power~" and your dog turning kickass

Funny thing is two of the party members are catfolk and I'm gonna have trouble not making a Thundercats reference.

Oh god the Dread Necromancer is Skeletor I just realized that.

[Kaje]

You could make your mount slightly better by using faith scion rather than wild plains outrider.

[Theomniadept]

What....exactly about Faith Scion does anything with this build? I'm looking through UA and this section its under is about as scatterbrained as I've ever seen. Individual weapons are listed under the scion classes, are these exclusive to those classes? Plus, what's the point of the Faith Scion? It only advances spellcasting when this build clearly sacrificed the meager spellcasting of a paladin.

[Kaje]

Special Abilities: Faith scion levels stack with other class levels for determining the effectiveness of the following abili- ties: animal companions, lay on hands, special mount, turn or rebuke undead, wild shape (including additional daily uses or increased range of sizes or creature types), and wild empathy. For instance, a 5th-level druid/6th-level faith scion could as- sume wild shape four times per day (including Tiny creatures), and would add 11 (plus Cha modifier) to his wild empathy checks. His animal companion would be treated as that of an 11th-level druid.

[Theomniadept]

Oh, I see it now. That's one tiny footnote. Technically speaking, would that stack with both the paladin and druid levels? I know Wild Plains Outrider stacks with one upon taking the class (you have to choose) but the way the wording works here is that it stacks with both.

The way it's worded though it makes it look like I have to be a dwarf to take it. Unless I'm allowed to take any legendary weapon in which case I only see two the build could take and since there's no room to fulfill the feat requirements then it just couldn't happen.

[Kaje]

Yup, stacks with both. So you'd get like 2 extra HD worth of mount. Like I said, slightly better.

[Theomniadept]

Hey, every hit die counts. Depending on the total hit die advancement that might give another feat.

[Kaje]

Also, you only need to be a dwarf to get extra abilities from the weapon.

[Andezzar]

Also, you only need to be a dwarf to get extra abilities from the weapon.That pretty much scraps all Halfling Outrider levels. However the four legendary weapons shown in UA are only examples. you could work with your DM to design a more appropriate legendary weapon for a halfling Faith Scion or you could use Dreamstriker for the PrC.

For your classic Dungeon delves having a medium mount has its advantages.The owners of übermounts become pretty useless if they are deprived of their mount

[Kaje]

No it doesn't. You don't need to be a dwarf to use the weapon or take the class. Just to get those extra abilities.

[Andezzar]

He retains the basic features of the prestige class as given in its description (base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and even spellcaster levels, when appropriate), but the weapon supplies only the magical abilities it would grant to any wielder.For lack of etc. or similar wording the underlined part looks as an exhaustive list of "basic class features". So a non-dwarf Faith Scion would not get the improvements to his animal companion or special mount

[Theomniadept]

We just got our info on ability scores; we can choose to roll or take from the set of 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 10. My friend with the demon dice that make blaster casting viable is going to be rolling his but I have notoriously bad rolls, so I will be taking that set.

Given that I'm dumping spellcasting and paladins have meh for skills I'm thinking of a set like this:
18 into Strength, -2 for halfling for a total 16
14 into Dexterity, +2 for halfling for a total 16
16 into Constitution
14 into Intelligence
10 into Wisdom
16 into Charisma

I figure with Charisma to saves and the need to at least pump necessary ranks into Ride, Handle Animal, and 5 into the three Diplomacy synergy skills (bluff is a class skill for the CG paladin) I could do with a 14 in Intelligence as opposed to Wisdom.