Mettle vs Evasion

[j_spencer93]

I am confused about something, mettle makes you basically negate a spell that you successfully save against that would normally have a weaker effect in that situation, is a spell that has Reflex half damage within Mettle's effect?

[Scow2]

Mettle only applies to Will and Fortitude saves (Which are both collectively more frequently "Save negates" instead of "Save Partial/half")

[j_spencer93]

....Once again not sure how i missed that...kinda obvious. Thanks.

[Deaxsa]

I am confused about something, mettle makes you basically negate a spell that you successfully save against that would normally have a weaker effect in that situation, is a spell that has Reflex half damage within Mettle's effect?

umm... no. Mettle is specific to fortitude and reflex saves.

[Perseus]

umm... no. Mettle is specific to fortitude and reflex saves.

Reflex? :smallconfused:

Though Mettle is a very awesome ability it is kinda lack luster because it doesn't work on enough spells whereas Evasion works on a ton of spells.

Mettle needs to be reworked so that it really is a fantastic class feature.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Reflex? :smallconfused:

Though Mettle is a very awesome ability it is kinda lack luster because it doesn't work on enough spells whereas Evasion works on a ton of spells.

Mettle needs to be reworked so that it really is a fantastic class feature.

I disagree. Some of the very best spells that target fort and will are measured as such because they have serious, deleterious effects even on a passed save. Mettle eliminates those effects. If you're expecting to deal with casters more than just a little now and again, mettle can be absolutely invaluable. Most ref save targeting effects just do a bit of damage on a passed save.

[Eldaran]

Reflex? :smallconfused:

Though Mettle is a very awesome ability it is kinda lack luster because it doesn't work on enough spells whereas Evasion works on a ton of spells.

Mettle needs to be reworked so that it really is a fantastic class feature.

Mettle is already fantastic, look at things like Cloudkill, Ego Whip, or Moon Bolt. All do nasty amounts of ability damage, the latter two can flat out permanently paralyze most characters on even a successful save if targeting their low stat, as they still do half damage. Mettle makes things like that, and many others, far less dangerous.

[j_spencer93]

I already got my answer but thanks for the examples.

[TheMonocleRogue]

Mettle is awesome if you have massive save bonuses in fort and will. It has great synergy with the Hexblade's ability to add charisma to saves against spells.

In fact there is a particular build that involves cross-classing Anti-paladin/Hexblade in which you combine arcane resilience with dark blessing to gain double your charisma modifier as a bonus to saves against spells.

Add a ring of evasion to that build and you can shrug off death/blasting spells like water.

[Fates]

Arguably, Mettle even allows you to negate losing XP when your familiar dies, because you lose 200 xp per class level, or half that on a successful will save. Can make using your familiar in combat a slightly less risky option, which is great for Hexblades, since they have some of the best familiars.

[Spuddles]

Mettle makes you immune to Orb spells, if you interpret 15d6 damage as a lesser effect than 15d6 damage and a stun.

Which I do, because why do wizards get to have all the permissive rulings?

[Fates]

Mettle makes you immune to Orb spells, if you interpret 15d6 damage as a lesser effect than 15d6 damage and a stun.

Which I do, because why do wizards get to have all the permissive rulings?

Forgot about this! That alone makes Mettle just about beat out evasion, since orbs are so vastly superior to fireballs, etc.

[nedz]

Mettle is also good against the Killer Gnome trick.

[Mithril Leaf]

Mettle is also good against the Killer Gnome trick.

Not if you actually take Mettle to do only what it says since the Killer Gnome's spells have a greater effect on a failed save.

[Chronos]

Mettle makes you immune to Orb spells, if you interpret 15d6 damage as a lesser effect than 15d6 damage and a stun.
Especially since the Orb spells specifically say "Fortitude partial" for their save. They probably should have said "None and Fortitude negates; see text", but then again, they should also have said "SR: Yes", so you take what you can get.

[nedz]

Not if you actually take Mettle to do only what it says since the Killer Gnome's spells have a greater effect on a failed save.

Ah, I was looking at the Pious Templer's version of Mettle — which is more debatable in it's language.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I disagree. Some of the very best spells that target fort and will are measured as such because they have serious, deleterious effects even on a passed save. Mettle eliminates those effects. If you're expecting to deal with casters more than just a little now and again, mettle can be absolutely invaluable.

Agreed.

Evasion got hosed by coming first in core, when the designers still had no clue at all what balance looked like, and also before there actually were Reflex: partial and Reflex: half (for effects other than just hp damage) spells written. Which there are several now.

I houserule Evasion to cover all half and partial Reflex saves, just like Mettle does for Fort and Will. Mettle's still better.