How does this build look? (Arcane Hierophant)

[tadkins]

Here's a rough draft of a character concept that really sticks out as something that would be a lot of fun to play, I think. Got a few questions I'd like to ask and would also like to request suggestions on refining the build.

Draft 1: Human Druid 3/Wizard 1/Human Paragon3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 3
Feats (not in the exact order): Practiced Spellcaster x2 for both classes, Natural Bond, Craft Wondrous Items.

Draft 2: Human Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge2
Feats: Practiced Spellcaster x2, Natural Bond, Natural Spell, Companion Spellbond, Craft Wondrous Items

Beyond that I'm not sure where to go. I think for such a character I would want to focus on healing and buffing, with battlefield control, damage spells and utility being close behind. In regards to Wildshape I picture it being more of a utility thing as well; turn into an inconspicuous hummingbird or housecat if I want to scout, turn into a big gorilla if I need a strength job done, and so forth. Despite the flak that theurge-type classes get, having access to both wizard and druid buffs can turn party members and the companion familiar into utter monsters.

As far as the companion choice goes, I was picturing this character riding atop an enlarged and buffed up turtle, standing on it's shell casting spells while it tramples across the battlefield like a walking fortress. Think that would work?

I could use some other feat suggestions; not sure what to go with beyond the above selection. I'm also in debate of what kind of martial weapon I should pick for the Human Paragon, as well as the class skill I can pick for him. The first thought would be to take Use Magic Device so that I can go overkill and be able to use Cleric items, but there might be a better choice out there.

Thanks for taking the time to read. I'm honestly quite eager to give this character a try. :)

[Vizzerdrix]

What is human paragon doing for you in this build? I'm unfamiliar with it.

[tadkins]

What is human paragon doing for you in this build? I'm unfamiliar with it.

Advances the Wizard class with a bit more. Seems like that path offers more than just going straight Wizard.

[Vizzerdrix]

Their are ways to enter early into this sort of build, and if you want better weapon choices I'd recommend using the weapon groups variant from Unearthed Arcana.

[eggynack]

Advances the Wizard class with a bit more. Seems like that path offers more than just going straight Wizard.
Seems unlikely. Losing caster levels is always a bad thing, especially when you're effectively losing two of them by entering the field of theurgery a level late, and double-especially when you're losing three more on either end by theurging at all. You're not even getting 9th's on either side. Just do something like druid 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2/arcane hierophant 10/mystic theurge 2. Early entry is likely a thing as well.

Also, if you're doing the whole utility wild shape thing, you should probably pick up a feat for it. Exalted wild shape (BoED, 42) for blink dog, unicorn, and Ex abilities on your animal forms at level nine, and dragon wild shape (Draconomicon, 105) for all of the things at level twelve, are two of the best options for that. You may also be interested in companion spellbond (PHB II, 77) which makes animal companion buffing much better. Your feat list is missing natural spell too, which it should probably not be after a certain point.

[tadkins]

Their are ways to enter early into this sort of build, and if you want better weapon choices I'd recommend using the weapon groups variant from Unearthed Arcana.

The early entry paths seem a bit more iffy. Of the three I read about, one is useless for everything but early entry (Precocious Apprentice), one is reliant on DM interpretation (Southern Magician), and the third is a Dragon Magazine thing (Alternative Spell Source). I don't mind going into the build the traditional way.


Seems unlikely. Losing caster levels is always a bad thing, especially when you're effectively losing two of them by entering the field of theurgery a level late, and double-especially when you're losing three more on either end by theurging at all. You're not even getting 9th's on either side. Just do something like druid 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2/arcane hierophant 10/mystic theurge 2. Early entry is likely a thing as well.

Hm, I could have sworn this path would give me the 9ths on both ends. I will change that. Human Paragon isn't something I *must* have or anything.


Also, if you're doing the whole utility wild shape thing, you should probably pick up a feat for it. Exalted wild shape (BoED, 42) for blink dog, unicorn, and Ex abilities on your animal forms at level nine, and dragon wild shape (Draconomicon, 105) for all of the things at level twelve, are two of the best options for that. You may also be interested in companion spellbond (PHB II, 77) which makes animal companion buffing much better. Your feat list is missing natural spell too, which it should probably not be after a certain point.

Yep, Wildshape would be weaker with this build than as a straight druid, so I figure having fun with utility forms would be the better way to go. Exalted and Dragon Wildshapes look fun. Companion Spellbond is one I wasn't aware of either, and with a focus being on buffing my pet, that looks like a good choice as well.

...Also, I totally forgot about Natural Spell! Thanks for the reminder. I know that one's just about mandatory for all druids.

[eggynack]

Hm, I could have sworn this path would give me the 9ths on both ends. I will change that. Human Paragon isn't something I *must* have or anything.
It's really mostly a demonstration of how far behind such a build is in general. What's most important is stuff like how at level eight, on your first level of arcane hierophant, you're effectively casting as a druid 4/wizard 4. Problematic stuff. Keeping up is important, especially when you're already so far behind.


Yep, Wildshape would be weaker with this build than as a straight druid, so I figure having fun with utility forms would be the better way to go. Exalted and Dragon Wildshapes look fun. Companion Spellbond is one I wasn't aware of either, and with a focus being on buffing my pet, that looks like a good choice as well.
I'm a pretty big fan of exalted, especially with the whole free action dimension door every round thing, but I'm pretty sure that dragon is especially superior on this sort of build. Exalted is tied to wild shape level, so while you'd ordinarily get it at level 9, here it'd probably have to wait till 15 or so. By contrast, is traditionally at level 12, and as it's not tied to wild shape level, at 12th level it shall remain. For dragon wild shape information, I usually check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16733730#post16733730), where WhamBamSam made a fancy list of stuff you can get. The only stuff that seems to be missing are the fact that the mist dragon's gaseous form ability allows casting, and that song dragons (MoF, 44) get both true seeing and tongues.

[tadkins]

It's really mostly a demonstration of how far behind such a build is in general. What's most important is stuff like how at level eight, on your first level of arcane hierophant, you're effectively casting as a druid 4/wizard 4. Problematic stuff. Keeping up is important, especially when you're already so far behind.


For sure. Any type of theurge is going to face that issue it looks like, and it's something I'm fully prepared for. Don't mind being a bit behind until later on when the entire build kicks in.


I'm a pretty big fan of exalted, especially with the whole free action dimension door every round thing, but I'm pretty sure that dragon is especially superior on this sort of build. Exalted is tied to wild shape level, so while you'd ordinarily get it at level 9, here it'd probably have to wait till 15 or so. By contrast, is traditionally at level 12, and as it's not tied to wild shape level, at 12th level it shall remain. For dragon wild shape information, I usually check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16733730#post16733730), where WhamBamSam made a fancy list of stuff you can get. The only stuff that seems to be missing are the fact that the mist dragon's gaseous form ability allows casting, and that song dragons (MoF, 44) get both true seeing and tongues.

In all honesty Wildshaping for this build is more on the backburner of my thinking. What I'm really focused on is all the spells this build gets, from two great lists.

So...many...buffs...!

Like this one!

Iron Body

(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 245)

Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer 8, Wizard 8, Sha'ir 8, Death Master 8, Urban Druid 8, Earth 8, Mechanus 8, Metal 8, Endurance 9,
Components: V, S, M, DF,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

This spell transforms your body into living iron, which grants you several powerful resistances and abilities.
You gain damage reduction 15/adamantine.
You are immune to blindness, critical hits, ability score damage, deafness, disease, drowning, electricity, poison, stunning, and all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration, because you have no physiology or respiration while this spell is in effect.
You take only half damage from acid and fire of all kinds.
However, you also become vulnerable to all special attacks that affect iron golems.
You gain a +6 enhancement bonus to your Strength score, but you take a -6 penalty to Dexterity as well (to a minimum Dexterity score of 1), and your speed is reduced to half normal.
You have an arcane spell failure chance of 50% and a -8 armor check penalty, just as if you were clad in full plate armor.
You cannot drink (and thus can't use potions) or play wind instruments.
Your unarmed attacks deal damage equal to a club sized for you (1d4 for Small characters or 1d6 for Medium characters), and you are considered armed when making unarmed attacks.
Your weight increases by a factor of ten, causing you to sink in water like a stone.
However, you could survive the crushing pressure and lack of air at the bottom of the ocean—at least until the spell duration expires.
Arcane Material Component: A small piece of iron that was once part of either an iron golem, a hero's armor, or a war machine.

Can I enlarge my turtle before casting this, and have my own literal walking metal turtle fortress?

[eggynack]

In all honesty Wildshaping for this build is more on the backburner of my thinking. What I'm really focused on is all the spells this build gets, from two great lists.

Probably a good way to go, though dragon wild shape has the benefit of being a bit on the completely and utterly insane side of things. You get effects ranging from always on freedom of movement, to always on true seeing, to a 250 (good) flight speed, to shadow blend. Every form also comes with an immunity or two, which can be as mundane as fire, or as out there as compulsion or energy drain, and every dragon comes with a complimentary side of 60 foot blindsense. Druids have this weird thing where they have a massive pile of the best stuff in the game natively, and then they also get a massive number of incredibly overpowered feats for some reason.

Edit: I suppose you can. That spell suffers a bit from the combined issues of lasting for a short duration, being of a high level, and not doing all that much. I mean, you're getting polymorph any object at that level, and if you were a straight druid then you'd already have shapechange.

[tadkins]

Probably a good way to go, though dragon wild shape has the benefit of being a bit on the completely and utterly insane side of things. You get effects ranging from always on freedom of movement, to always on true seeing, to a 250 (good) flight speed, to shadow blend. Every form also comes with an immunity or two, which can be as mundane as fire, or as out there as compulsion or energy drain, and every dragon comes with a complimentary side of 60 foot blindsense. Druids have this weird thing where they have a massive pile of the best stuff in the game natively, and then they also get a massive number of incredibly overpowered feats for some reason.

It's almost as if going with the Arcane Hierophant is a way to tone that down a bit. xD Something lower-OP games can appreciate, increasing my chances of playing such a character in a game like that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I almost never theurge arcane and divine (too much similarity) but when I do I go with one of these:

Wizard 2/ cloistered cleric 1/ mystic theurge 6/ arcane hierophant 10/ MT +1

Precocious apprentice and heighten spell at 1, versatile spellcaster at 3 gets you second level arcane and divine spells and the 6 ranks in two skills is trivial. Bamboo spirit folk for the race nets you trackless step. There is -some- room for disagreement in that the PrC specifies trackless step as a class feature but, IMO, trackless step is trackless step.

Archivist 3/ sorcerer 1/ MT 4/ AH 10/ MT +2

Same race but you don't have to eat precocious apprentice and I always liked the dynamic of being spontaneous on one side and prepared on the other.

If the DM rules that bamboo spirit folk is no good then you're stuck with druid 3 or you drop a level of casting by being an elf and taking a level in wildrunner.

The lost caster levels hurt on a theurge so precocious apprentice or some other early entry trick is definitely something you want. It's really not a terrible feat anyway. When you first pick it up the extra slot is definitely worth the feat and being able to cast even one second level spell at levels one and two can dramatically increase the caster's longevity.

[tadkins]

The lost caster levels hurt on a theurge so precocious apprentice or some other early entry trick is definitely something you want. It's really not a terrible feat anyway. When you first pick it up the extra slot is definitely worth the feat and being able to cast even one second level spell at levels one and two can dramatically increase the caster's longevity.

A fair point. The more I think about it, early entry in some fashion might be the better way to go. Precocious Apprentice is probably the one most likely to see a game so that is something I will reconsider.

The character I have in mind must be a human though, and I prefer the druidic theme sprinkled with a hefty dose of the arcane, so I'd like to not deviate from Druid/Wizard.

Edit: Off to bed, will pick up this thread in the morning. Thank you everyone for your time and responses so far. :)

[nedz]

There's also the Illuminium early entry trick with the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat.
Wizard 2/ Druid 1/ Mystic Theurge 6 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge +
or with Wizard and Druid the other way around.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's also the Illuminium early entry trick with the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat.
Wizard 2/ Druid 1/ Mystic Theurge 6 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Mystic Theurge +
or with Wizard and Druid the other way around.

That doesn't get trackless step for entry into Arcane Hierophant.

[nedz]

That doesn't get trackless step for entry into Arcane Hierophant.

Ah, missed that small detail. I guess you need Druid 3 then.

[tadkins]

As far as the Wizard side goes, should I specialize? As a NG character I don't see myself using much Necromancy, and with a focus on buffing I think going Transmuter might be the way to go.

[eggynack]

I'd probably not specialize. You're an above normal number of slots, at least on a per-spell level basis, so you're better off with the variety. It could work if you can find places where druid casting fills the gap completely, but I can't think of a place offhand.

[tadkins]

I'd probably not specialize. You're an above normal number of slots, at least on a per-spell level basis, so you're better off with the variety. It could work if you can find places where druid casting fills the gap completely, but I can't think of a place offhand.

*nod* I gotcha. Just more of a flavor thing really. I don't picture this druid shooting black bolts of energy and raising the undead, is all.

Anything else I'm missing in Draft 2 for the most part?

[eggynack]

Well, I did just find yet more dragon wild shape stuff in oriental adventures. The li lung (OA, 156) in particular gets earthquake once/day as a supernatural ability, and can tunnel through solid rock. I think you also get to take on humanoid forms of small to large size, while deep dragon, which is the form you'd be using for that otherwise, only grants medium humanoid forms. This is quite possibly the most research intensive feat I've ever worked with, I've gotta say. Cool stuff though. Anyway, feat and build stuff is pretty important, because some of those druid and wizard feats are pretty ridiculous, but spell choice is always a more important thing in general. It might be worth ditching one of the instances of practiced spellcaster, and seeing if you can shunt all of your caster level based stuff onto one of the two halves, but I don't know how viable that is.

Edit: Lung dragons also get Su invisibility and detect thoughts. Also blindsight, which seems like the kinda thing that may have been errata'd, because true dragons tend to get blindsense. The planeshift ability is unfortunately Sp though.

[tadkins]

Anyway, feat and build stuff is pretty important, because some of those druid and wizard feats are pretty ridiculous, but spell choice is always a more important thing in general. It might be worth ditching one of the instances of practiced spellcaster, and seeing if you can shunt all of your caster level based stuff onto one of the two halves, but I don't know how viable that is.



My strategy would basically entail dropping a crapton of buffs from two very powerful spell lists onto my companion and party members, turning them into borderline godlings, then stand back and be ready with healing/battlefield control as necessary. The more I read on the class, the more I decided that this is one of the best ways to play this sort of character.

For the most part this goes back to what we were talking about the other day on that other thread. I like the Druid class, but the class by itself is missing some of the things I like about Wizards, namely planar travel. The Arcane Hierophant build is basically my way of remedying that problem. Flavorwise I'd focus a bit more on the druid side, with the wizard side being taken more for it's utility and to fill in the gaps of what the druid does not have.

[eggynack]

Well, healing is probably about as bad here as it ever is, if not worse, but buffing is a pretty reasonable path. Due to the sheer slot density, there should probably be some special attention paid to action cost, above and beyond what would ordinarily be prudent (this is one of the reasons why I think healing would be likely worse). That means long durations or short casting times, as much as possible. As a quick druid list, you get blockade (CS, 95), instant of power (FoW, 114), Kuo-Tua skin (Storm, 118), longstrider, snowsight (Frost, 104), and wood wose (SpC, 242), and that's just out of first level spells. Worth looking into is stuff like the heart of X line (CM, 106), the primal line (DrM, 71), and maybe alter fortune (PHB II, 101). You may also consider out of combat spells, like omen of peril (SpC, 149), because those are also effectively actionless. You obviously shouldn't cast this sort of spell to the exclusion of everything else, because there's no point in saving time if you don't use it, but getting a good density of them going is a good idea.

Edit: As a quick note, I don't think this actually helps out much with planar travel, if that's actually the only reason you're doing this. Planeshift is a 7th level wizard spell, so you'd ordinarily pick it up at level 13. However, you're at least three caster levels behind here, so you'd only get the spell at level 16. In an ordinary druid build, by this point you'd only be one level away from 9th's, which would mean shapechange, and therefore access to planar travel. Thus, this build only speeds up your access by a single level, and I'm pretty sure that your original build actually got there slower.

[tadkins]

Well, healing is probably about as bad here as it ever is, if not worse, but buffing is a pretty reasonable path. Due to the sheer slot density, there should probably be some special attention paid to action cost, above and beyond what would ordinarily be prudent (this is one of the reasons why I think healing would be likely worse). That means long durations or short casting times, as much as possible. As a quick druid list, you get blockade (CS, 95), instant of power (FoW, 114), Kuo-Tua skin (Storm, 118), longstrider, snowsight (Frost, 104), and wood wose (SpC, 242), and that's just out of first level spells. Worth looking into is stuff like the heart of X line (CM, 106), the primal line (DrM, 71), and maybe alter fortune (PHB II, 101). You may also consider out of combat spells, like omen of peril (SpC, 149), because those are also effectively actionless. You obviously shouldn't cast this sort of spell to the exclusion of everything else, because there's no point in saving time if you don't use it, but getting a good density of them going is a good idea.

Just having the heals as an emergency thing would help, I think. Never know what will happen, and it's always good to be prepared.

As far as action economy goes, truth be told the only spell I really know of is Time Stop, which I'd get with this build. Was also thinking I could take Craft Contingency Spell at the same time. Would be great to use to help prepare for certain situations and know that they're accounted for. I'm actually not sure but I wonder if Craft Contingency Spell could be used in conjunction with the Channel Animal/Plants feature of the AH. Great way to set up some defenses, ambushes and whatnot.


Edit: As a quick note, I don't think this actually helps out much with planar travel, if that's actually the only reason you're doing this. Planeshift is a 7th level wizard spell, so you'd ordinarily pick it up at level 13. However, you're at least three caster levels behind here, so you'd only get the spell at level 16. In an ordinary druid build, by this point you'd only be one level away from 9th's, which would mean shapechange, and therefore access to planar travel. Thus, this build only speeds up your access by a single level, and I'm pretty sure that your original build actually got there slower.

I'm a patient person. I don't care when I get them, so long as I know they'll be coming eventually. :)

Although, I had no idea Shapechange could give me that capability. Not sure why that didn't come up in the other thread. Plane travel isn't the only advantage a build like this comes with, though. Plenty of other cool tricks you can do with a druid that has access to the wizard spell list, right? Stuff you couldn't normally do as a pure wizard or a pure druid.

[eggynack]

You don't need to screw with the limitations of the time-space continuum, as well as the limits of the game, in order to make your use of the action economy better. As my list indicated, just having hours/level or 24 hour buffs, or swift/immediate action spells, is enough to give you an edge. You just always have to be assessing whether the spell cost of a given slot is worth more or less than the action cost. For example, at level one you should be tossing entangles all over this great land of ours, shutting down entire encounters in an instant, because a first level spell is the entire world to you. However, at level twelve or so, you could dump all of your first level slots on nothing and barely feel it, but if you spend a whole turn trying to entangle your enemies, you may die a horribly painful death.

Thus, at later levels, you should prepare fewer entangles and more instants of power. You get to apply a small bonus without a real action cost, and that bonus is always relevant, even at high levels. No one's going to say no to a +4 to a saving throw. You should still maybe prepare one entangle, because it's a fantastic spell, but you're probably beyond the point where you'd prepare two or three. For an arcane hierophant, for whom slots flow free like a river of delicious candy, that point comes a bit earlier than it ordinarily would. That means more instant of power, more nerveskitter, more primal hunter, and more obscuring snow. Also more celerity, on the wizard side, because it's awesome.



Although, I had no idea Shapechange could give me that capability. Not sure why that didn't come up in the other thread. Plane travel isn't the only advantage a build like this comes with, though. Plenty of other cool tricks you can do with a druid that has access to the wizard spell list, right? Stuff you couldn't normally do as a pure wizard or a pure druid.
9th level spells is just the general point where all casters transmute into an amorphous caster-blob, all capable of the exact same things all the time. Worst case scenario, if no other monster just natively has the ability, the old shapechange into a zodar trick always works. As for other cool tricks, there are likely some, but probably less than you'd think. I'd probably go about filling them in other ways, because it's a lesser investment than a bunch of caster levels.

[tadkins]

I think I understand what you're saying. Arcane Hierophants get a lot of spells and I should be finding ways to get those spells out into the field in a timely, efficient manner, right?

That Instant of Power is one I've never heard of (Thanks DnDTools). I love it! I'm grateful for that bit of information, thank you. :)

You've given me quite a bit to think about though. Considering just giving up on the idea of an AH and going with something a bit more straight.

[eggynack]

I think I understand what you're saying. Arcane Hierophants get a lot of spells and I should be finding ways to get those spells out into the field in a timely, efficient manner, right?
Indeed so. The action economy is all kindsa important.


That Instant of Power is one I've never heard of (Thanks DnDTools). I love it! I'm grateful for that bit of information, thank you. :)
Yeah, that one's a bunch of fun. You find a whole bunch of cool spells when you search through every druid spell ever printed for fancy handbook purposes. Or at least I think I've looked through them all. It seems like I'm always adding random stuff I overlooked to my list, though that's been happening less frequently over time.


You've given me quite a bit to think about though. Considering just giving up on the idea of an AH and going with something a bit more straight.
Seems reasonable. I've never been a big fan of theurgic builds, though arcane hierophant at least bypasses two of the major problems with such builds, in that it lets you theurge to 20, and that it has actual class features. As a general rule of thumb, you're likely to have a greater variety of spells through on-level druid spells than through wizard spells of three levels lower. I'd probably just go with that contemplative thing if I were seeking out gap filling. Other build plans can fill other specific gaps though, like how exalted wild shape effectively gets around the tactical teleportation limitation that druids face (though it's not a complete limitation, between shuffle (Shining South, 49) and unicorn heart (CM, 121)).

[tadkins]

True that. I dunno, it's perhaps my lack of knowledge that makes me have a hard time figuring out a build for a character. I saw this PrC and saw an obvious path of strategy I could go with. Yet at the same time, you guys have given me a lot of general knowledge that will help me consider characters I've tried to build in the past. Perhaps I won't need the AH now and can confidently attempt to build a straight wizard or druid.

[bekeleven]

As a note, don't use Longstrider. Use Snowshoes. It's strictly better.

[eggynack]

As a note, don't use Longstrider. Use Snowshoes. It's strictly better.
I keep reading it, and I feel like there should be something there about the speed bonus only working on snow or ice, but I can see no indication of that in the text. It's even a general bonus to speed, instead of a bonus to land speed, which is so much better that it's insane. So, yeah. I'm not even sure if a valid interpretation of the type I indicated above exists, so snowshoes is actually a really good spell to longstrider's long duration mediocrity, and will thus replace it. Fancy.

Edit: Also, snowshoes is touch range instead of personal. Also also, the obvious random snow bonuses. Crazy stuff.

[bekeleven]

I keep reading it, and I feel like there should be something there about the speed bonus only working on snow or ice, but I can see no indication of that in the text. It's even a general bonus to speed, instead of a bonus to land speed, which is so much better that it's insane. So, yeah. I'm not even sure if a valid interpretation of the type I indicated above exists, so snowshoes is actually a really good spell to longstrider's long duration mediocrity, and will thus replace it. Fancy.

Edit: Also, snowshoes is touch range instead of personal. Also also, the obvious random snow bonuses. Crazy stuff.

I read captnq's spellbook last month in preparation for building a chameleon. My blessed book has 990 pages filled.

My biggest find was Unity Wine. +1 Morale bonus to ALL skills for H/L? How did I not know this before?