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View Full Version : When is it time to roll new stats?



Zach J.
2014-01-18, 06:50 AM
Say I've rolled up a character for a game, but at the last moment I decide I want to play a different sort of class or race or whatever. Is it more fair to keep the stats I rolled the first time or should I have to roll again?

TuggyNE
2014-01-18, 08:08 AM
If you're creating what is essentially a different character (Ranger to Wizard, for example), then that's sensible.

Driderman
2014-01-18, 08:37 AM
I think that's very contextual.
Personally, I'm of the approach that you roll a set of stats and build a character around them, meaning that if you decided to play another race or class, you use the same stats as originally rolled. Otherwise you could just keep changing your mind and re-rolling stats until you get the exact stats you want. In which case, why even bother rolling in the first place?

inexorabletruth
2014-01-18, 09:04 AM
More than likely, that's a matter you should clear with your GM. But if the first session hasn't started, traditionally you would not re-roll. Just use the scores you currently have and rearrange your stats to suit your new character.

Driderman
2014-01-18, 09:10 AM
More than likely, that's a matter you should clear with your GM. But if the first session hasn't started, traditionally you would not re-roll. Just use the scores you currently have and rearrange your stats to suit your new character.

So if the first session hasn't started yet, you can just re-roll until you get the stat-spread you want? :smalltongue:

Aasimar
2014-01-18, 10:13 AM
So if the first session hasn't started yet, you can just re-roll until you get the stat-spread you want? :smalltongue:

In rolling games, you usually make one set of rolls, in the presence of the GM according to whichever rolling method he's particular to, then use those rolls for your pc, no matter how often you change your mind.

If you use point buy, you can re-spread your point buy until whatever deadline the GM has for characters, usually the start of the first session.

Jay R
2014-01-18, 10:37 AM
Say I've rolled up a character for a game, but at the last moment I decide I want to play a different sort of class or race or whatever. Is it more fair to keep the stats I rolled the first time or should I have to roll again?

Ask the DM.

Driderman
2014-01-18, 11:29 AM
In rolling games, you usually make one set of rolls, in the presence of the GM according to whichever rolling method he's particular to, then use those rolls for your pc, no matter how often you change your mind.

If you use point buy, you can re-spread your point buy until whatever deadline the GM has for characters, usually the start of the first session.

Yeah that's certainly how we did it, back when we actually played D&D.

MrNobody
2014-01-18, 11:33 AM
I think that you just had your rolls. Just rearrenge what you got for the pc you are thinking about. One pc-one roll set :roy:

Slipperychicken
2014-01-18, 11:46 AM
Generally speaking, I roll one set of ability scores with the GM as witness, or else ask him to roll them for me and email/text them to me later. That way, he knows the stats are legit. If I wish to play a different sort of character, I simply re-arrange the stats which fate has already handed me (assuming that's permitted, of course), and then build around them.

inexorabletruth
2014-01-18, 03:58 PM
So if the first session hasn't started yet, you can just re-roll until you get the stat-spread you want? :smalltongue:


But if the first session hasn't started, traditionally you would not re-roll.

Grammatically speaking, I didn't use a double negative, so you know what I meant. :smalltongue:

KillianHawkeye
2014-01-18, 04:56 PM
Ask your DM.



If I was DM, I'd say just use the rolls you made (although you can rearrange the scores as much as you want).

Zach J.
2014-01-18, 05:56 PM
Cool, I'll just use my first set. :)

Amphetryon
2014-01-18, 07:34 PM
These kids today with they're rearranging of rolled stats all willy-nilly. You probably even rolled more than 3d6x6, didn't you? Why, back in my day, the order you rolled them in was the order you GOT them in!

Get off my lawn!

Zach J.
2014-01-18, 07:45 PM
These kids today with they're rearranging of rolled stats all willy-nilly. You probably even rolled more than 3d6x6, didn't you? Why, back in my day, the order you rolled them is was the order you GOT them in!

Get off my lawn!

Ha, I know you're kidding, but I usually play Hackmaster so I know what you mean. :p

Amphetryon
2014-01-18, 08:16 PM
Ha, I know you're kidding, but I usually play Hackmaster so I know what you mean. :p

Nothing says "Old-School D&D" like a Magic-User with a 12 INT. :smallyuk:

TuggyNE
2014-01-18, 08:31 PM
Nothing says "Old-School D&D" like a Magic-User with a 12 INT. :smallyuk:

Don't you mean 9 Int? :smalltongue:

Jay R
2014-01-19, 12:56 AM
Don't you mean 9 Int? :smalltongue:

Not really. When we rolled 3d6 in order, we chose our class based on the highest of STR, DEX, INT or WIS. The probability of a 9 or less was 0.375. But the probability of 9 or less on all four was less than 2%.

So the probability of at least one 10+ was over 98%.
The probability of at least one 11+ was 93.75%.
The probability of at least one 12+ was 84.7%.
The probability of at least one 13+ was 70%.
The probability of at least one 14+ was over 50%.

The rules also included a limited ability to transfer points from one stat to another (at 2 for 1 or 3 for 1).

In fact, I never saw a prime characteristic of less than 13.

Amphetryon
2014-01-19, 07:15 AM
Not really. When we rolled 3d6 in order, we chose our class based on the highest of STR, DEX, INT or WIS. The probability of a 9 or less was 0.375. But the probability of 9 or less on all four was less than 2%.

So the probability of at least one 10+ was over 98%.
The probability of at least one 11+ was 93.75%.
The probability of at least one 12+ was 84.7%.
The probability of at least one 13+ was 70%.
The probability of at least one 14+ was over 50%.

The rules also included a limited ability to transfer points from one stat to another (at 2 for 1 or 3 for 1).

In fact, I never saw a prime characteristic of less than 13.

I sincerely congratulate you on your luck in generating high prime characteristics; the only times when I can say nobody at the table had a prime characteristic below 13 in my own experience, was when the DM allowed for re-rolls.

Jay R
2014-01-19, 07:57 PM
Well, we made liberal use of the tradeoff rules. From page 10 of Men & Magic:


Clerics can use strength on a 3 for 1 basis in their prime requisite area (wisdom) for purposes of gaining experience only.
...
Both fighters and clerics can use [intelligence] in their prime requisite areas (strength and wisdom respectively) on a 2 for 1 basis.
...
[Wisdom] may be used on a 3 for 1 basis by fighters, and on a 2 for 1 basis for Magic-Users, in their respective prime requisite areas.

Also, I am reminded that exactly once, a DM looked at a player's rolls and said, "This guy never leaves the farm. He lives a good, full life, and dies in his bed. The End. Oops - your character died. Roll up a new one."

A few years ago, I ran a campaign of original D&D (with the supplements Greyhawk, Blackmoor, and Eldritch Wizardry). They rolled 3d6 in order, but I allowed them to read either the tops of the bottoms of the dice, so a set of 7, 11, 12, 5, 14, and 10 could also be read as 14, 10, 9, 16, 7, and 11. I also let them read them up or down. Everybody had a 14 or above for a Prime Requisite.

Rhynn
2014-01-19, 08:39 PM
Ask the DM.


I think that's very contextual.
Personally, I'm of the approach that you roll a set of stats and build a character around them, meaning that if you decided to play another race or class, you use the same stats as originally rolled. Otherwise you could just keep changing your mind and re-rolling stats until you get the exact stats you want. In which case, why even bother rolling in the first place?


In rolling games, you usually make one set of rolls, in the presence of the GM according to whichever rolling method he's particular to, then use those rolls for your pc, no matter how often you change your mind..

All of these.

For fairness and trust, ability scores should be rolled in front of the GM and the other players. You roll a set and make a character based on them; before play starts or the sheet is turned over to the GM or whatever, you can change your mind about any decisions you made.

Also, for D&D, I prefer 3d6 in order. :smallcool:


Nothing says "Old-School D&D" like a Magic-User with a 12 INT. :smallyuk:

Why not? Pre-AD&D, an INT 12 Magic-user is at no disadvantage, except to experience gain rate.


In fact, I never saw a prime characteristic of less than 13.

Also, OD&D and Basic (B/X and BECM both) allow for moving ability score points within certain rules. ACKS uses 3d6 in order and 2:1 point transfer to prime requisites only, and it's not very common to get a character with a prime requisite below 16. (It's certainly possible, and far from rare, though.)

And yes, I make players roll hit points at 1st level.

GungHo
2014-01-20, 01:37 PM
Define "last moment". Are you all sitting down and you're wanting to start the game and now we all gotta watch you re-roll, or is it like a day or two before?

If we're sitting down to start, I'd probably ask you to just re-arrange the stats with what you have, simply because that's the most expedient thing to do and I'm not wasting everyone's time watching you add dice. If it's a day or two ahead, I don't care. Then again, as I stated in another thread, my preferred stat generation method is "just pick some numbers".

Amphetryon
2014-01-20, 02:10 PM
Why not? Pre-AD&D, an INT 12 Magic-user is at no disadvantage, except to experience gain rate.
1. I wasn't aware that (semi-facetiously) referencing "old School D&D" limited the discussion to "Pre-AD&D." Allow me to clarify that such a limiter was not my intent, and apologize for the apparent confusion it created.

2. "Except to experience gain rate" is a fairly major caveat in some gamers' minds, particularly in versions of the game where the concept of "CR" is considerably murkier than it is in 3.X; approaching challenges when you're behind in XP by a level or more, relative to the rest of the group, is not always conducive to the continued survival of your Character. Further, I knew several DMs in previous editions who awarded XP based on contributions to the challenges, creating a spiral of diminishing rewards for those who lag behind.

JusticeZero
2014-01-20, 02:24 PM
...And this is why I have banished randomness from character generation. No good comes of it.

veti
2014-01-20, 03:44 PM
Not really. When we rolled 3d6 in order, we chose our class based on the highest of STR, DEX, INT or WIS. The probability of a 9 or less was 0.375. But the probability of 9 or less on all four was less than 2%.

The very first character I ever rolled - 3d6 x 6, rolled in order - had the stats 16, 16, 16, 17, 14, 7.

I must've rolled several dozen PCs and probably thousands of NPCs since then, and never managed that again. (Though I did manage a strength of 18/00, once.)

MrUberGr
2014-01-20, 03:44 PM
I haven't read through the thread, I just wanted to say that rolling for stats is rather unfair since someone might end up with 6 stats at 18 or 6 stats at 12. Point buy, especialy in 4e (that only allows one stat at 8) is pretty neat.

Rhynn
2014-01-20, 04:21 PM
1. I wasn't aware that (semi-facetiously) referencing "old School D&D" limited the discussion to "Pre-AD&D."

Certainly not, but the majority of pre-3E systems are not AD&D, and they're included.

If the statement had been something like "playing an INT 12 magic-user in AD&D can suck" I would agree. AD&D way over-emphasized ability scores, and made it worse for spellcasters than others (a fighter can get STR 19 and above with magic items; a magic-user can't get improved INT), which is why AD&D 1E ended up with ridiculously twinky ability score generation (and started out with a system as generous as the one used in D&D 3.X). AD&D 2E toned ability score generation down, but had the same over-emphasis on the scores.


2. "Except to experience gain rate" is a fairly major caveat in some gamers' minds

Well, the difference between an INT 12 and an INT 18 wizard is 10% XP; 2750 vs. 2500, or 220,000 vs. 200,000 ... never a full level, one just levels slightly earlier.


Further, I knew several DMs in previous editions who awarded XP based on contributions to the challenges, creating a spiral of diminishing rewards for those who lag behind.

They would have done better to follow the rules. (Not that the 10% difference would ever make you lag behind noticeably enough by itself.)