A list of sub-systems?

[G.Cube]

Psionics
Pact Magic
Shadow Magic
Truenaming
Incarnum
Sublime Way

Am I missing any?

[Fruchtkracher]

What about Incantations?

[qwertyu63]

You've forgotten normal spellcasting. Yes, that is a subsystem.

[Gemini476]

What about Incantations?

...Do you mean Invocations, or did you mean the UA alternative ritual system?
Both are fine, though.

I think that's pretty much it, though.

[SinsI]

Item Creation&Magic Items
SLA's
Skills&Feats

[Ashtagon]

Feats
Skills

(yep, they are subsystems too)

ninjas everywhere!

[GeekGirl]

Maneuvers.

[G.Cube]

Maneuvers.

This would be Sublime Way.

[nedz]

Breath Weapons (Dragons and DFAs)
Turn Undead (et al)
Monks

[Seerow]

Luck Feats
Combat Focus Feats

[Alefiend]

This would be Sublime Way.

Not necessarily—the regular combat maneuvers like bull rush, trip, and the rest follow their own rules as well.

[Raven777]

I think by subsystems, Gelatinous Cube means "systems that provide learnable abilities to classes akin to spellcasting". I cannot come up with a better definition, but c'mon, you should realize instinctively what he wants : psionics or maneuvers, not feats or skills.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Factotum spellcasting? :P

[Amphetryon]

Feats
Skills

(yep, they are subsystems too)

ninjas everywhere!

If those count, then Grappling needs to be included. This is especially true given how much trouble many folks have with the rules for it.

[G.Cube]

I think by subsystems, Gelatinous Cube means "systems that provide learnable abilities to classes akin to spellcasting". I cannot come up with a better definition, but c'mon, you should realize instinctively what he wants : psionics or maneuvers, not feats or skills.

Thank you.


Factotum spellcasting? :P

You know, I would almost consider the Inspiration Point set up a sub-system, almost.

[Chronos]

Whatever the heck it is that Dragon Shamans use. A combination of breath weapon, auras, and a Lay On Hands-like ability, none of which really interact with each other.

And spellcasting can be divided up further, either by spontaneous vs. prepared, or by arcane vs. divine.

EDIT:
Oh, and epic spellcasting, too. That's definitely a different system from normal spellcasting.

[Seerow]

Thank you.



You know, I would almost consider the Inspiration Point set up a sub-system, almost.

You're going to need to come up with a more specific definition of subsystem if you're not going to include Inspiration Points as a subsystem. If you're also disregarding Feats and Skills, then between the three I can use the same qualifications to discount almost anything as a subsystem.


Personally I consider a subsystem any system that can be removed and replaced with something mechanically different but filling the same role, without grossly impacting the rest of the system. Most things tend to qualify as a separate subsystem with this definition. For example Weapons and Armor are a subsystem, because while they are implemented in the PHB, you can modify how these work dramatically without impacting the rest of the game. Grappling is a subsystem because you can rip the grappling rules out, replace them with something simpler, and not impact the rest of the game.

A stricter definition would be restricting to a resource system, defined as gaining access to resources which can be used on various options. This would disqualify things like Grappling and Bullrushing, but still very obviously includes Skills (you gain skill points, which are spent on various skills or skill tricks), Feats (you gain feats, which are a resource you choose to spend on gaining access to a feat), and Inspiration (Inspiration is a resource which can be spent on a number of things as noted in the Factotum class).

Getting stricter than that you'd have to go with a resource system shared by multiple classes. At which point you have Spells, Psionics, Incarnum, and Maneuvers. But you disqualify Inspiration, Binding, Truenaming, Shadowmagic, probably a few other classes I'm forgetting, and any of the various feat based resource systems (Stunning Fist daily uses, Luck Feat daily uses, Combat Focus effects).

Beyond that I really have no idea what you're going for.

[Suddo]

I would say player resources that commoners don't get. So Feats, Skills and Money are out but Magic, Inspiration, and such are in.

[SinsI]

My take is that a "sub-system" is something that allows to make various interesting characters out of it. So feats and skills are a perfectly good sub-system, but something like grappling is not, as it is only a one-trick pony.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Looking at the orignal post, I feel reasonably confident that we're talking about underlying class mechanics. Magic-system-y-things.

In which case I'd add Invocations to your list. Other than that, I can't really think of anything you missed.

[lsfreak]

Personally, I'd divide magic into Prepared, Sorcerer-Spontaneous, Beguiler-Spontaneous, and Spirit Shaman-Spontaneous, and separate Erudites out as their own thing too. But I can see why you wouldn't as well, given that as-designed they draw from the same pool of abilities.

Bardic Music and Turn Undead seem like almost-subsystems to me. Were all those things from ACFs, feats, and PrCs intrinsic class options rather than later add-ons, they'd probably be subsystems. As-is, probably not what you're looking for.

[G.Cube]

Looking at the orignal post, I feel reasonably confident that we're talking about underlying class mechanics. Magic-system-y-things.

In which case I'd add Invocations to your list. Other than that, I can't really think of anything you missed.

Pretty much this. Magic and mechanic systems not native to the base system of the game.

After thinking about it, Inspiration Points I would probably include, as well as skill tricks, but I'm really looking for things that entire classes are based around.