Why is Adaptive Style Considered Gold for swordsage

[kpumphre]

Adaptive Style: This isn't so much a feat you can take as a class feature that eats a feat slot. You should always, always have this in your build. I cannot stress that enough. From the guide http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Awww.giantitp.com%2Fforums%2Fshowt hread.php%3Ft%3D259783&oq=cache%3Awww.giantitp.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread. php%3Ft%3D259783&aqs=chrome.0.57j58.1508j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But why can someone explain it to me please TY for the help

[Piggy Knowles]

Basically, the swordsage has a terrible recovery mechanic. You have to take a full round action to recover one expended maneuver. It's awful.

Adaptive Style, however, lets you spend that same full round action to reset ALL of your maneuvers, and even ready ones you had not readied for this combat. So, instead of spending a full round action to recover a single maneuver, you now spend that same action to completely change up your readied maneuvers entirely.

Unless you don't plan on recovering maneuvers at all as a swordsage, Adaptive Style just makes your recovery mechanic way less painful.

[kpumphre]

Ok see looking at it I didnt get it let you recover them all

[Nettlekid]

Ok see looking at it I didnt get it let you recover them all

It sort of implicitly lets you recover them, because when you change out your maneuvers you start with all the new ones prepared. So even if you change out to the exact same ones you currently have, they're "newly prepared" and ready for use.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The major reason is definitely to fix the swordsage's godawful recovery mechanic.

But also note, a swordsage actually has enough maneuvers known where it's not onerous to learn a few situational maneuvers you might not need most of the time. With AS, you can keep them un-readied but they're only a round away whenever they would be useful.

Should you dip into other martial adept classes at all, AS is also golden because it'll re-ready maneuvers from ALL your adept classes at once, iirc.

[kpumphre]

Thanks for the help. General question can I ready the same maneuver more than once, say like the shadow teleport 7 times?

[ksbsnowowl]

Thanks for the help. General question can I ready the same maneuver more than once, say like the shadow teleport 7 times?

No. It is either readied or it isn't.

IIRC, a multiclassed initiator can't even learn the same maneuver on two different class' known maneuver lists. You either know it, or you don't.

[Chronos]

I'm always the voice of dissent in these threads. Yes, the swordsage's normal recovery mechanic is so bad that they might as well not have one. And yes, Adaptive Style is unambiguously better than their normal recovery. But I would argue that even Adaptive Style is still a bad enough recovery method that it's usually not worth it. Usually, you'll be better off just using normal attacks and your stance, plus perhaps whatever less-useful maneuvers you have left, rather than spending an entire full-round action that doesn't affect the combat at all. And even if it is occasionally useful to spend a full-round action for that, such situations are rare enough that it's not worth a feat slot.

Now, the feat might still be useful for changing what you have readied, if you've got some situational maneuvers and the situation changes quicker than you can anticipate. But just for the refreshing, skip it.

[pasko77]

I'm always the voice of dissent in these threads. Yes, the swordsage's normal recovery mechanic is so bad that they might as well not have one. And yes, Adaptive Style is unambiguously better than their normal recovery. But I would argue that even Adaptive Style is still a bad enough recovery method that it's usually not worth it. Usually, you'll be better off just using normal attacks and your stance, plus perhaps whatever less-useful maneuvers you have left, rather than spending an entire full-round action that doesn't affect the combat at all. And even if it is occasionally useful to spend a full-round action for that, such situations are rare enough that it's not worth a feat slot.

Now, the feat might still be useful for changing what you have readied, if you've got some situational maneuvers and the situation changes quicker than you can anticipate. But just for the refreshing, skip it.

i agree with that. action economy is too heavy to think that a wasted turn is a good idea. Same logic for which in-combat healing is not good.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also, given how many manuevers a Swordsage gets, it seems odd that you would run out over the course of the average combat.

[Amphetryon]

Also, given how many manuevers a Swordsage gets, it seems odd that you would run out over the course of the average combat.

I suspect this varies a lot with both expected length-of-combat, and which Maneuvers a given Swordsage has readied for a given combat. If the Swordsage did recon to know that she'd need specific, situational Maneuvers for the day and then got jumped by a Random Encounter, the Adaptive Style Feat could more than double her ability to contribute to that particular fight, for example.

[avr]

DMs are often happy to give you one round to buff before combat, but not 4-5, no matter how well hiddenor how much distance is involved. This is when you really want adaptive style to switch your maneuvers to the most useful ones for the situation you're about to face.

It's also handy if your defences rely on a bunch of maneuvers and you've used them all up. Offence isn't the only use of maneuvers.

[Ramza00]

I'm always the voice of dissent in these threads. Yes, the swordsage's normal recovery mechanic is so bad that they might as well not have one. And yes, Adaptive Style is unambiguously better than their normal recovery. But I would argue that even Adaptive Style is still a bad enough recovery method that it's usually not worth it. Usually, you'll be better off just using normal attacks and your stance, plus perhaps whatever less-useful maneuvers you have left, rather than spending an entire full-round action that doesn't affect the combat at all. And even if it is occasionally useful to spend a full-round action for that, such situations are rare enough that it's not worth a feat slot.

Now, the feat might still be useful for changing what you have readied, if you've got some situational maneuvers and the situation changes quicker than you can anticipate. But just for the refreshing, skip it.

I agree for normal use the feat is subpar, but there are sometimes where you can just spend 6 seconds to recover all your maneuvers.

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, given how many manuevers a Swordsage gets, it seems odd that you would run out over the course of the average combat.

Eh, in practice I find that there are only a handful of maneuvers you'll actually want to use over full attacks. Also, a boost and counter heavy swordsage can burn through its maneuvers pretty quickly.

(Personally though, even with Adaptive Style, I almost never use swordsages except as a dip for good skills, Wis to AC and a stance or two. I prefer warblades, since fewer readied maneuvers that can be refreshed easily mid-combat tends to be far more valuable to most of my builds.)

[Endarire]

Having played Swordsages, the feat Adaptive Style was rarely that useful. It was niche. I also rarely recovered in battle due to spending a full round action for the chance of being able to use at least 1 maneuver again to be a rare luxury.

In long, drawn-out fights, Adaptive Style is useful. I'd much rather normally have Extra Readied Maneuver since that's more generally useful.

[StreamOfTheSky]

i agree with that. action economy is too heavy to think that a wasted turn is a good idea. Same logic for which in-combat healing is not good.

And I understand that critique, but IME in a lot of combats, there will often be a round at some point where for whatever reason - enemy positioning, BFC effects cutting things off, debilitating status effects, etc... - that you're not actually "losing out on" much by using your turn for AS. It's definitely a your mileage may vary kind of deal, and if you never have lengthy combats the feat may indeed be worthless in your game (though I find it hard to imagine that you never run out of all your maneuvers in low level games, if nothing else).

In-combat healing also gets a bad rep. Sure, no one should focus on it or think of it as a major role they're filling. But it does have a place and can be very important. D&D combat isn't just a win-loss type of deal. You're looking for flawless victories, no deaths, every time. In order to have any hope of that, you're going to need occasional in-combat healing sooner or later. Is it the most efficient? No. But the game isn't all about maximizing your party's damage given : damage received ratio. If it were, you'd break out cheering when an enemy overkills another PC by 20 more damage than necessary. :smalltongue:

[deuxhero]

No. It is either readied or it isn't.

IIRC, a multiclassed initiator can't even learn the same maneuver on two different class' known maneuver lists. You either know it, or you don't.

This is key to the "Idiot Crusader" build infact.

You start as another class (forget if it could be either or only one worked) then take maneuvers from schools a Crusader can learn. Then when you take levels in Crusader, you can't take these maneuvers and wind up with fewer maneuvers known than maneuvers readied, which means you will always have them active thanks to your recovery method. (I think you may have needed some feats to pull that off too, forget)

[StreamOfTheSky]

I thought you COULD ready the same maneuver once for each adept class that you have. This is news to me...

[Tommy2255]

I thought you COULD ready the same maneuver once for each adept class that you have. This is news to me...

I'm pretty sure you can have it readied for each class, you just don't need to get it as a maneuver known for each class. You either know it or you don't. Like a wizard/sorcerer would need to know a spell in both ways in order to use it in any slot.

So one of us is misunderstanding this.

[ksbsnowowl]

To the best of my knowledge, both Stream of the Sky and Tommy are incorrect. But I'll admit I haven't really touched anything ToB in a few years.

Edit: From the Tome of Battle Q&A (http://community.wizards.com/comment/12968281#comment-12968281):


Q: Can you know the same maneuvers (from Tome of Battle) more than once? Can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time?
A: Actually no, you cannot learn the same maneuvers more than once, nor can you ready the same maneuver more than once at a time.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm pretty sure you can have it readied for each class, you just don't need to get it as a maneuver known for each class. You either know it or you don't. Like a wizard/sorcerer would need to know a spell in both ways in order to use it in any slot.

So one of us is misunderstanding this.

I've always ruled it that you need to learn it for each class and can then ready it once for each of the classes. Any other maneuvers/stances you know from the same discipline count towards the maneuvers known requirement, regardless of what adept class they came from. (So if you know 2 WR maneuvers from Crusader and 2 WR maneuvers from Warblade, you could take a WR maneuver that requires knowing 4 others with either class).

ToB is definitely not as clear as it could have been...

[ksbsnowowl]

SOTS, see the edit in my previous post.

From the same thread I linked, which partially covers Tommy's misunderstanding:

Q: Can a Swordsage or a Warblade ready more than one "copy" of the same maneuver so that he can use the maneuver more than once per encounter without having to spend actions to regain his maneuver(s)?
A: Unfortunately not. Readying a maneuver isn't like preparing a spell. You are either Ready to use the maneuver or you aren't! You can't "Double Ready" a Maneuver! You can only use a given maneuver once per encounter unless you Recover it during the fight!

Q: Another multiclass question. Can a multiclassed martial adept (eg. Swordsage/Warblade) choose/and or ready the same maneuver for each of it's classes (provided you have access to the same maneuver)? And if you gain a maneuver in one class, can you use it as a prerequisite in gaining a maneuver in the other class?
A: No, you can only ever learn/ready a maneuver once. If you gain a maneuver in one class it can indeed fulfill prerequisites in another class!

[Sith_Happens]

One thing to consider: Swordsages are well-disposed for scouting/stealth builds. Any time you find the enemy before they find you, Adaptive Style puts you one round away from exactly the set of maneuvers you want.