Using souls and sacrifices

[beowulf_gr]

Other than the use of souls mentioned in BoVD for item creation or currency are there any other uses? I mean I suppose since they are a high value currency they must have a practical use for some people. Evil deities or Archfiends and the like.

Same for sacrifices, it gives you an idea what you get from the offering side of ritualistic sacrifices to deities but what does a deity gain from it???

[Slipperychicken]

Same for sacrifices, it gives you an idea what you get from the offering side of ritualistic sacrifices to deities but what does a deity gain from it???

I believe this is intentionally left unexplained, so each GM can come up with his own reasons. Deities and Demigods has some ideas in "The Nature of Divinity" (around pages 9-14), although they're obviously vague suggestions rather than RAW.

BoVD has this to say regarding gods' benefit from sacrifice:


In a world suffused with magic, evil gods pay attention
when someone makes a living sacrifice to them, and they
often reward their followers for doing so. In some abstract
sense, the sacrifice adds some small mote to the god’s overwhelming
power, and in return the evil deity is sometimes
willing to grant a boon or a blessing in return.

[beowulf_gr]

The problem with the quote from BoVD is that it really says nothing. The reason I'm asking is that my character is a deity now and I'm looking for some mechanics or at least homebrew suggestions on how I can benefit from my followers offering sacrifices

[Tommy2255]

I've got some villains in my campaign that are really getting into crafting from souls, liquid pain, dark craft xp/gp, etc, and I've gotta say, the value of a soul is not that impressive. I mean, 1 soul=10 xp? You'd get more experience bludgeoning the guy to death with the butt of the sacrificial knife than from actually stabbing him. In Pathfinder, souls of more powerful creatures are worth more, but there's no real mechanic for that in 3.5.

Also, the existence of the Dark Altar Stone from BoVD that traps souls during a sacrifice implies that, whatever benefit deities get from sacrifices, it's definitely separate from the value of the actual soul being sacrificed.

[beowulf_gr]

Thanks for the reply. I'll try again in the homebrew section. Maybe someone has made something for it

[Crake]

I mean, 1 soul=10 xp?

That's what mass soul harvesting is for. Collecting all the souls of a small continent for 1000 years adds up. I say that from experience, it's how a demon lord was born in one of my campaigns.

[Clistenes]

I've got some villains in my campaign that are really getting into crafting from souls, liquid pain, dark craft xp/gp, etc, and I've gotta say, the value of a soul is not that impressive. I mean, 1 soul=10 xp? You'd get more experience bludgeoning the guy to death with the butt of the sacrificial knife than from actually stabbing him. In Pathfinder, souls of more powerful creatures are worth more, but there's no real mechanic for that in 3.5.

Also, the existence of the Dark Altar Stone from BoVD that traps souls during a sacrifice implies that, whatever benefit deities get from sacrifices, it's definitely separate from the value of the actual soul being sacrificed.

The soul itself probably can be sold to fiends in exchange for favors or Wish spells. The fiends would eat the souls or take them to the Abyss to be turned into larvae.

As for the cheapness of human sacrifice...a slave dealer or orc raider will probably sell you his worst pickings (babies, old people, cripples, sick people...etc.) for quite less than 1 gp per head, and you still get 10 xp for each of them.

Taking into account that each xp for crafting is worth 5 gp (for example, when scribing a Wish scroll you have to include 25,000 gp into its market price for the xp), sacrifice is economically efficient, if slow.

[Slipperychicken]

As for the cheapness of human sacrifice...a slave dealer or orc raider will probably sell you his worst pickings (babies, old people, cripples, sick people...etc.) for quite less than 1 gp per head, and you still get 10 xp for each of them.

Lords of Madness has the value of a slave as follows:


Cost = (CR, minimum 1) × 100 gp
and also


Unusual or marketable qualities in a slave, such as great
strength, great beauty, valuable skill, or exotic origin, can
multiply the price by two, three, or four. A skilled miner dwarf
might bring 200 gp if sold at a mine. If that same dwarf were
exceptionally strong, he could cost 400 gp. If that dwarf was an
8th-level rogue and the buyer was the head of a thieves’ guild,
the slave could cost between 12,800 and 25,600 gp. The DM
has considerable leeway when setting these prices, of course.

[Clistenes]

Lords of Madness has the value of a slave as follows:


and also

Those prices are for able slaves who can work.

As I said, I was speaking of those captives that nobody would buy. An old person who can barely walk, somebody who has lost a leg or an arm, a blind child...etc. Nobody would pay anything for those except as sacrifice.

[Slipperychicken]

Those prices are for able slaves who can work.

As I said, I was speaking of those captives that nobody would buy. An old person who can barely walk, somebody who has lost a leg or an arm, a blind child...etc. Nobody would pay anything for those except as sacrifice.

I would be hesitant to price those below 1gp, because it probably costs more than that to feed them. Simply feeding a slave one poor meal a day (3 copper, or 0.03 gold) would make the slaver take losses (assuming he sold the slave for 1 gold) if he held the slave for more than a month, to say nothing of the costs (especially labor and restraints) incurred in acquiring, pacifying, and transporting the slave, or even "overhead" costs like mounts, horse-feed, vehicles, licenses, fees, or facilities. As such, I think a more believable price would be around 3-10 gold, depending on how much the sacrifice-performer is willing to pay. Like if the buyer is known to be tremendously wealthy with >10k funding the operation, the seller might try to run him 10-15 gold for a sacrifice.

[RochtheCrusher]

I would be hesitant to price those below 1gp, because it probably costs more than that to feed them. Simply feeding a slave one poor meal a day (3 copper, or 0.03 gold) would make the slaver take losses (assuming he sold the slave for 1 gold) if he held the slave for more than a month...

But if you're a slave trader, who knows the location of a Temple of Orcus or item-crafting lich (a bulk buyer), then you aren't holding these garbage slaves long. You sure as hell aren't feeding them. You just need them technically alive... they don't need to last more than a few days after you sell them... meat on the bones is not required. A couple die on the way? Who cares, leave their bodies to rot. They're only worth a couple gold per dozen anyway, and you're only taking them because you can sell them, no questions asked, to the temple that's on the way to your slave market. Where you make the real money.

After all, supplying souls to those evil enough and powerful enough to use them in bulk is all about the favors and protection, not the money. Law enforcement's a whole hell of a lot more understanding when the Temple of Orcus puts in a good threat on behalf of their pet slave trader.

[Tommy2255]

The way I've been getting around the low cost of a soul is by combining all the different methods at once. You can torture someone for a few days to extract liquid pain worth 3xp per dose, and you can extract 1 dose per day up to the subject's constitution score before they're all out(?), so you could get 30xp worth of pain from an average human slave, and the torture actually gives a bonus to the check you make during the sacrifice, so that's even more dark craft xp/gp, plus the 10gp for the soul itself.

So if you perform 1 sacrifice a day, you can start with the weak slaves who aren't worth torturing and still get a decent benefit if you perform the sacrifice in a public ceremony in front of your followers, especially if the subject is good aligned. Then you can move on to increasingly more hardy slaves now that you've had time to squeeze all that delicious xp out of them.

But I think that just makes it more strange how cheap souls are, because it's actually worth less than the amount of liquid pain you can extract from the same person, which seems backwards. Sure you can make up for it in volume, but these are the immortal souls of intelligent creatures. How is that not more valuable?

[Clistenes]

But I think that just makes it more strange how cheap souls are, because it's actually worth less than the amount of liquid pain you can extract from the same person, which seems backwards. Sure you can make up for it in volume, but these are the immortal souls of intelligent creatures. How is that not more valuable?

You get all that XP from torturing and killing living beings. The soul is an already squeezed up renmant that doesn't give more XP, but can be of use as fiendish coinage once turned into a larvae; and it happens that, in the fiendish markets, a soul is worth 10 xp or 200 gp (larvae are plentiful in the Lower Planes, it wouldn't make sense for them to be more expensive than they are).

EDIT: I have imagined a fundamentalist dude surfing the net, finding this thread and shouting "I knew it! Those D&D players really are demon worshippers who sacrifice babies to Satan!"


But if you're a slave trader, who knows the location of a Temple of Orcus or item-crafting lich (a bulk buyer), then you aren't holding these garbage slaves long. You sure as hell aren't feeding them. You just need them technically alive... they don't need to last more than a few days after you sell them... meat on the bones is not required. A couple die on the way? Who cares, leave their bodies to rot. They're only worth a couple gold per dozen anyway, and you're only taking them because you can sell them, no questions asked, to the temple that's on the way to your slave market. Where you make the real money.

After all, supplying souls to those evil enough and powerful enough to use them in bulk is all about the favors and protection, not the money. Law enforcement's a whole hell of a lot more understanding when the Temple of Orcus puts in a good threat on behalf of their pet slave trader.

The evil cultists probably follow around the slavers and raiders and buy their slaves right after they got them, and they may even sacrifice them right there to avoid having to transport them.

[Tommy2255]

The evil cultists probably follow around the slavers and raiders and buy their slaves right after they got them, and they may even sacrifice them right there to avoid having to transport them.

But what about all the benefits you get for a stationary cult? You don't need to lug around your Dark Altar Stone. You can have your whole cult attend the sacrifice, as many people as you can, and the more people you have in attendance, the more effective the sacrifice. You've got your nice, cozy, damp, cold dungeons on site to torture the subject ahead of time (which also makes the sacrifice more effective). You only need to intimidate the officials in one area rather than having to deal with the authorities of every jurisdiction you move through.

[Slipperychicken]

The pain extractors would likely count as torture, so it would actually give a boost to the Knowledge (Religion) check made during a sacrifice.


But what about all the benefits you get for a stationary cult? You don't need to lug around your Dark Altar Stone. You can have your whole cult attend the sacrifice, as many people as you can, and the more people you have in attendance, the more effective the sacrifice. You've got your nice, cozy, damp, cold dungeons on site to torture the subject ahead of time (which also makes the sacrifice more effective). You only need to intimidate the officials in one area rather than having to deal with the authorities of every jurisdiction you move through.

There are a number of bonuses which are much easier to get with a stationary sacrifice area, such as making the ceremony last an hour

The cult could probably just set up contracts with slavers: Any slaver can round up a bunch of junk slaves, bring them to the cult's compound, and the cult pays enough to make it worthwhile. Of course, the cult might pay better for higher-quality sacrifices (with traits which give a bonus to the sacrifice check, like being a priest of a certain religion, being virginal enough to warrant a bonus, etc), but most of the slaves brought over will be junk.

Of course, the cult would probably want to be somewhere where either their cult, human sacrifice, and/or slavery are legal (or simply tolerated, whether or not bribery and coercion are needed to make it so). The authorities' compliance makes things run much more smoothly.

[beowulf_gr]

Liquid pain could be a profitable way to use sacrifices and slaves but what about higher ECL characters/monsters? I mean I'm assuming a Fighter 10 Titan's soul would be worth to whoever uses souls than a 1st level commoner. Same for a great Wyrm. So economically it would make a lot more sense farming souls from that kind of creatures. Any suggestions on how to set the price then?

[Tommy2255]

Liquid pain could be a profitable way to use sacrifices and slaves but what about higher ECL characters/monsters? I mean I'm assuming a Fighter 10 Titan's soul would be worth to whoever uses souls than a 1st level commoner. Same for a great Wyrm. So economically it would make a lot more sense farming souls from that kind of creatures. Any suggestions on how to set the price then?

All souls are worth the same in d&d 3.5, 10xp or 200gp (250gp in larval form). But Pathfinder has rules for more valuable souls:


Mindless Spirits (10 gp): While it’s possible to capture the vital essences of vermin, basic oozes, and other such unthinking creatures, these paltry spirits are worth very little.

Animal Spirits (25 gp): This category contains creatures of animal-level intelligence, whose spirits—while presumably worth something to some deities, as reflected by the value of animal sacrifice—are rarely traded in the soul markets. In fact, though the existence of animal spirits is undeniably real, there’s rampant debate in many societies over whether such things truly count as “souls.”

Basic Soul (100 gp): This is the soul of a standard intelligent creature—a commoner, a low-level adventurer, a sentient monster of low CR, or any of the other hordes of weak or mundane folk who live out their lives with a normal amount of pomp and excitement. This is the lowest category of souls which interests daemons, who see animals and other nonsentient creatures as hardly worth the time to destroy.

Noteworthy Soul (500 gp): The souls of mid-level characters, rulers, famous or influential people, and other powerful, accomplished, and otherwise important people draw greater attention than basic souls, and drive bidding higher accordingly.

Grand Soul (1000–5000 gp): High-level characters, great heroes, dragons, powerful aberrations, and other such spirits of fabulous power and forceful personalities offer equally significant rewards to those who manage to contain their essences.

Unique Soul (priceless): For the truly unique souls—those of legendary figures, epic heroes, and other massive presences—there can be no going price. The unique sparks that live within these creatures are valuable beyond compare, and the frantic bidding (and backstabbing) that arises when one of these trapped spirits comes up for sale is the sort of thing fiends and undead wait thousands of years for, paying nigh-unimaginable prices for the right to consume or display such an artifact.