What could this party do? [3.P]

[Tanuki Tales]

So, I came across this piece of homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326029) this morning and I'm curious concerning the following questions:

What tier is this class.
What could a five-man party of just this class be capable of, assuming no TO or cheese.
Could a five-man party of this class (excluding TO or cheese like above) realistically function and surmount the challenges that the average adventuring party is expected to surmount.

[Gnaeus]

Tier is probably really high tier 3, although could be tier 2 if there are some super game breaking ex's I can't think of ATM.

With every member of the party as a full BAB skill monkey with all class skills and a stack of EX's it can certainly beat any normal challenge for generic party. If it can't be killed with full bab attacks, or some special EX, there is probably something in Handle Animal, Diplomacy, or UMD that will get you there.

No cheese is HIGHLY subjective.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Stench-Ex-

Note: in PF, many movement forms are SPECIFICALLY laid out in that list as being EX, not natural abilities.

Some EX abilities I see on the list: Blindsight, Earth Glide, Dragon Senses, Regeneration, Fortification, Frightful Presence, Incorporeality, Natural Invisibility, Paralysis, Pounce, Spell Resistance, Stench, Water Breathing, Web. So that guy could have all of those at level 14, + full bab and 8 skill points/level.

To give another example, there is a 3 HD creature with a 30 foot ex blindness gaze attack, at will, activated or suppressed as a free action. What do you do at level 3 when every combat begins with all the bad guys making 5 Fort saves or be blinded for an hour, and 5 more every round until they fail.

Or, Regeneration, + Acid Immunity, + Fire Immunity. I think you could be unkillable by damage by level 4.

A lightning quasi elemental's Electricity power + a Shambling Mounds special energy immunity would allow a party of these guys to raise their Constitutions to arbitrarily high levels at level 9, and the save DCs for lots of other abilities along with them.

[Jack_Simth]

So, I came across this piece of homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326029) this morning and I'm curious concerning the following questions:

What tier is this class.
What could a five-man party of just this class be capable of, assuming no TO or cheese.
Could a five-man party of this class (excluding TO or cheese like above) realistically function and surmount the challenges that the average adventuring party is expected to surmount.
Well, after a point, they could be flying, immune to HP damage, and shooting people at range... Probably tier-2, yes. Lots of gamebreaking stuff they can do (like immunity to almost everything [including damage], plus Hardness-20 or more, tied with at-will status and damage effects to spam), but they have to pick their gamebreaking things. I came to this conclusion by going through the monsters in the SRD and glancing at all the Ex abilities. Did you know that the Monster Manual Entries for the core races with their variants list the entire stretch of abilities from the racial traits as one big Ex ability per subrace?

So... yeah, full BAB skillmonkies, reasonable weapon proficiencies, and the ability to grab stuff from ... basically anywhere... yeah, they could handle a normal adventuring day.

Oh yes, and allowing both Pathfinder and 3.5 material makes it worse.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Master Smith (Ex): Midgard dwarves gain Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and Forge Ring as bonus feats. They are considered to possess the prerequisites necessary to craft any magic item of those types, even if they do not otherwise meet the requirements or have the ability to cast the necessary spells." Those are only 8 HD. This includes intelligent items, epic items, and artifacts of those types.

Assuming the DM knows better than to throw an Ocean Giant and then a Half-Clay Golem at them (or any number of other immune-to-damage combos), they could reasonably work well as a one-man-party. Consider the following abilities:

Web, Tremorsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousSpider.htm) at 1st level.
Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/darkmantle.htm) at 1st level.
Breathless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfAir) at 1st level (or by virtue of his own race).
Earth Glide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental) at 2nd level.
Melt Weapons, Fiery Aura, Combustion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/magmin.htm) at 2nd level.
Paralysis (Carrion Crawler) on a tentacle attack at 3rd level, spend three feats to get Deepspawn in LoM and you have two tentacle attacks.
Spider Climb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm#vampireSpawn) at will at 4th level.
Fast Healing 15 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) at 5th level.
Insanity Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/achaierai.htm) at 6th level.
Immunity to Electricity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shamblingMound.htm) that grants a Con bonus at 8th level.
Magic Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm) at 9th level.

Not to mention Regeneration plus immunity to the only damage types that deal real damage to you. Immunity to nonlethal damage may be a bit more difficult, plus the official ruling on that combo is that you're no longer capable of converting damage into nonlethal damage so all damage bypasses your regeneration. But still, there's a lot of potential for some extremely strong abilities. Something as simple as hiring an NPC spellcaster to use a Summon Monster II can get you tons of abilities. You may have to invest in Knowledge ranks to justify that in-character, but that shouldn't be too difficult for this class, plus you can get Knowledge Devotion to make those ranks useful in combat.

There's a lot of room for a lot of synergy, but it would probably take a cooperative group/DM to get the most out of it.

[Drachasor]

Note that in PF, Regeneration is like a modified Fast Healing. You take normal damage from everything, but certain damage suppresses regeneration. This can cause death if your at at 0 hp or below. You fall unconscious normally.

But with the right immunities, Fast Healing, and Regeneration, you could certainly heal 30 hit points per round.

Definitely T2, I think, since you can be incorporeal and get other game-changing abilities that break the normal game with easy at pretty low levels.

I'm not sure you can get Hardness. I don't think it is labelled anywhere as an Ex ability, but I might be wrong. If you can, then an Adamantine Animated Object can be made at level 5, which would let you get Hardness 20 -- you could also get Burn at a very high level relatively cheaply if you want to add say +6d6 or more fire damage to your natural attacks (the only limit is your wallet).

How this interacts with simulacrum would be interesting. A Simulacrum of a Adamantine Golem (or Tarrasque) would have low enough hit dice to let you get virtual immortality in combat at 15th level -- which would work even against SoDs and such. Though by then you are probably blocking 40 damage per hit, quartering the resulting damage, and healing 30-40 hit points per round. In other words, you could take a single 160 damage attack each round and shrug it off with laughable ease. The real trick would be getting a spell that would heal you to full as an extraordinary ability.

[3WhiteFox3]

Note that in PF, Regeneration is like a modified Fast Healing. You take normal damage from everything, but certain damage suppresses regeneration. This can cause death if your at at 0 hp or below. You fall unconscious normally.

But with the right immunities, Fast Healing, and Regeneration, you could certainly heal 30 hit points per round.

Definitely T2, I think, since you can be incorporeal and get other game-changing abilities that break the normal game with easy at pretty low levels.

I'm not sure you can get Hardness. I don't think it is labelled anywhere as an Ex ability, but I might be wrong. If you can, then an Adamantine Animated Object can be made at level 5, which would let you get Hardness 20 -- you could also get Burn at a very high level relatively cheaply if you want to add say +6d6 or more fire damage to your natural attacks (the only limit is your wallet).

How this interacts with simulacrum would be interesting. A Simulacrum of a Adamantine Golem (or Tarrasque) would have low enough hit dice to let you get virtual immortality in combat at 15th level -- which would work even against SoDs and such. Though by then you are probably blocking 40 damage per hit, quartering the resulting damage, and healing 30-40 hit points per round. In other words, you could take a single 160 damage attack each round and shrug it off with laughable ease. The real trick would be getting a spell that would heal you to full as an extraordinary ability.

The D&D 3.5 SRD entry for animated object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm) lists hardness as extraordinary. It's not pathfinder, but shows some precedent.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, yes, looking it over, PF has animated objects have their composition as Extraordinary. So being made of adamantine is EX and grants a +6 natural armor bonus and 20 hardness.

Similarly, fly (clumsy), burrow, and swim at speed 40 (with movement boost) are all Ex for animated objects. Obviously a poor source for flight, but cheap.

+5 reach with all attacks is EX as well.

There's honestly a lot of crazy EX stuff in any edition.

[Jack_Simth]

So, I came across this piece of homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326029) this morning and I'm curious concerning the following questions:

What tier is this class.
What could a five-man party of just this class be capable of, assuming no TO or cheese.
Could a five-man party of this class (excluding TO or cheese like above) realistically function and surmount the challenges that the average adventuring party is expected to surmount.

Let's see....

Fiend Folio: Zodar: 16 HD:
Invulnerability (Ex): A zodar is impervious to all attacks except those from bludgeoning weapons, and the enhancement bonus (if any) of such a weapon is disregarded when determining the result of the attack.
Monster Manual II: Ocean Giant:
Blunt Weapon Immunity (Ex): An ocean giant takes no damage from bludgeoning weapons.
So an 18th level one of these could be straight-up invulnerable. That can actually be done at a lower level, though. See, there's a particular template:
Book of Exalted Deeds: Aleax:
Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.
There's no low-end limit to the Aleax's hit dice in the template. Theoretically, a 1st level character...

Oh, that piece of homebrew has since been edited! Now that trick can't be pulled until level 4 (Construct type), unless you're a Construct yourself (Warforged).

Oh yes, and as you do automatically start with one ability of your choice... 1st level, there's only one creature anywhere that can actually hurt you as a Questellion Warforged (and you get to pick who and what... although it'll probably end up being the BBEG, whatever it is, so might as well make it interesting). Umm... yeah... that could be a problem. Of course, that may be a matter of unbalanced critters existing in the game...

[137beth]

High tier 3 at least. You can inflict a ton of status effects indefinitely, have every movement form, all skills, and a ton of immunities and defensive qualities.

Can it get long-distance teleportation and/or plane shift without UMD? If so, it is definitely tier 2. There might be a way to break into tier 1 if you go through enough books, but I'm not sure.

[Gemini476]

Oh yes, and as you do automatically start with one ability of your choice... 1st level, there's only one creature anywhere that can actually hurt you as a Questellion Warforged (and you get to pick who and what... although it'll probably end up being the BBEG, whatever it is, so might as well make it interesting). Umm... yeah... that could be a problem. Of course, that may be a matter of unbalanced critters existing in the game...

Questellan' an Aleax of yourself. It'll never have more HD than you, so feel free to enjoy your immortality.

[Crake]

Don't forget the neat ability of chokers who can get a free extra standard action each round.

Edit: Nvm, that ability is Su

[Drachasor]

High tier 3 at least. You can inflict a ton of status effects indefinitely, have every movement form, all skills, and a ton of immunities and defensive qualities.

Can it get long-distance teleportation and/or plane shift without UMD? If so, it is definitely tier 2. There might be a way to break into tier 1 if you go through enough books, but I'm not sure.

You can move pretty much as fast as a Druid. You can become immune to any magic that allows SR and immune to all damage. You can have ridiculously high damage dealing capability. You can bypass almost all barriers. Oh, and a lot of spawn creation is EX.

Overall I don't see how it's not Tier 2. There's a lot of powerful stuff there that can fundamentally upset the game.

[Jack_Simth]

Questellan' an Aleax of yourself. It'll never have more HD than you, so feel free to enjoy your immortality.
Technically, it only stops attacks. Non-attack hazards (such as forest fires, natural lightning, falling damage, etcetera), not being attacks, can still hurt you. As can Old Age. It's not, of itself, immortality. Much better to pick an aleax of a low-level version of something in the past that the DM can turn into a BBEG - because then, rather than thinking of the ways around that specific ability, the DM will send someone you know after you. Meanwhile, you can mow through the mooks.


You can move pretty much as fast as a Druid. You can become immune to any magic that allows SR and immune to all damage. You can have ridiculously high damage dealing capability. You can bypass almost all barriers. Oh, and a lot of spawn creation is EX.
I'm not familiar with any Ex spawn creation that leave you in control of the spawn... the Morgh, Shadow, Spectre, Wight, Wraith, and Vampire's Create Spawn are all Su. Do you know where you can find an Ex Create Spawn?

Overall I don't see how it's not Tier 2. There's a lot of powerful stuff there that can fundamentally upset the game.With the recent edits, very low Tier-1. When it was first posted, you were limited to [Class Level] abilities. Now, you are limited to [class level] abilities at a time, and can learn others to trade out with an hour of work (although learning them takes a long time).

Picking a few game-breaking abilities is tier-2, which is what it was. The ability to trade out game-breaking abilities is the hallmark of Tier-1, which is what it is now. That said, most of the game-breaking abilities that it can pick up are primarily defensive in nature - there are very few gamebreaking Ex abilities that are offensive in nature... but I guess that's why it comes with Full BAB.

[Gemini476]

Picking a few game-breaking abilities is tier-2, which is what it was. The ability to trade out game-breaking abilities is the hallmark of Tier-1, which is what it is now. That said, most of the game-breaking abilities that it can pick up are primarily defensive in nature - there are very few gamebreaking Ex abilities that are offensive in nature... but I guess that's why it comes with Full BAB.

At 16th level, you can start a Wightocalypse via the 10HD Whelps of Zargon (Elder Evils). You slime a creature, it turns into a 10HD Whelp and slimes other creatures and turns them into Whelps. And Whelps are always 10HD, so you could start in some commoner village if you want to let the Wightocalypse get some speed before mid-high level adventurers try to stop it.
The Create Spawn ability of the Wight is (Su), if you wonder.

At 13th (?) level a Lilitu will make you auto-succeed at UMD checks. Combined with the 8HD Midgard Dwarf's ability to craft any magic item without meeting requirements, that is a very powerful combo.

16th level also gets you Split(Ex). Gotta love those crazy Oozes.

13th level gives you the ability to Dominate Monster any creature that you share a square with. You'll need to pick of some of the Swarm-based abilities of the Ayperobos Swarm to do so, but it's a thing.

Also, the real reason to use an Aleax of yourself rather than one of a long-dead opponent is that the Aleax of yourself always has a small enough amount of HD for it to work. What long-dead foe has 1HD, so that you could become invulnerable to attacks as a level 1 Warforged Questellan?
Snag Regeneration 1 (good) from a White Abishai at level 4 and find some way to get immunity from non-lethal that doesn't make you lose your CON score, and hey presto! You are now pretty much immune to everything.
You're immune to old age by virtue of being a robot.

[Jack_Simth]

At 16th level, you can start a Wightocalypse via the 10HD Whelps of Zargon (Elder Evils). You slime a creature, it turns into a 10HD Whelp and slimes other creatures and turns them into Whelps. And Whelps are always 10HD, so you could start in some commoner village if you want to let the Wightocalypse get some speed before mid-high level adventurers try to stop it.
Checking... Elder Evils, page 154: yeah, you can destroy a campaign world that way, but you have no control over the spawn. Which makes it a nuke, but not one that's overly useful.



The Create Spawn ability of the Wight is (Su), if you wonder.


I'm not familiar with any Ex spawn creation that leave you in control of the spawn... the Morgh, Shadow, Spectre, Wight, Wraith, and Vampire's Create Spawn are all Su.
I did not wonder about the Wight's, no.


At 13th (?) level a Lilitu will make you auto-succeed at UMD checks. Combined with the 8HD Midgard Dwarf's ability to craft any magic item without meeting requirements, that is a very powerful combo.

Lilitu (Fiend Folio): 14th, and it also theoretically gets you 9th level Cleric casting thanks to Mock Divinity, letting you cast Raise Dead occasionally.

However, the Midgard Dwarf (Frostburn) doesn't let you make any magic item, just armor, weapons, shields, wondrous items, and rings without meeting the requirements - so no scrolls, wands, staves, or rods that way. Still extremely useful, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't quite turn you into an artificer.


16th level also gets you Split(Ex). Gotta love those crazy Oozes.
Yes, but you don't explicitly get control over them. So what you end up with is a bunch of clones of yourself controlled by the DM. You end up with a bunch of copies of you looking to take the same treasure you wanted. It has it's uses, but, well....

13th level gives you the ability to Dominate Monster any creature that you share a square with. You'll need to pick of some of the Swarm-based abilities of the Ayperobos Swarm to do so, but it's a thing.

Checking... Fiendish Codex II, requires two picks, and offers a save every round. The Hellwasp Swarm (Core) has an Inhabit ability, which is easier to get (12th), and lasts longer. Harder to use, though (target must be helpless or dead), and destroys the host after a little while.


Also, the real reason to use an Aleax of yourself rather than one of a long-dead opponent is that the Aleax of yourself always has a small enough amount of HD for it to work. What long-dead foe has 1HD, so that you could become invulnerable to attacks as a level 1 Warforged Questellan?
Why does it have to be a long-dead foe? Remember, you start play with a selected ability. You merely write in your backstory that you watched an Aleax kill a low-level priest who was leading his flock astray.


Snag Regeneration 1 (good) from a White Abishai at level 4 and find some way to get immunity from non-lethal that doesn't make you lose your CON score, and hey presto! You are now pretty much immune to everything.
You're immune to old age by virtue of being a robot.You'll want two sources of regeneration (or one source of regeneration and immunity to that thing), otherwise there is indeed something that can pierce your immunity - so a Crystalline Troll (10 HD, MM III, regeneration 5/sonic) and a regular troll (6 HD, regeneration 5/fire or acid) means that any HP damage, to not be nonlethal, would need to be both sonic and fire, or sonic and acid.

As to the nonlethal, Dragon magazine (#313, specifically) has half-undead, one of which gets immunity to nonlethal as an Ex ability (but do look over all of them - a Fetch gets immunity to ability damage and drain as one ex ability, the Ghedon gets immunity to fear and confusion as an Ex ability, a Ghul gets immunity to disease and ingested poisons, a Katane gets spider-climb, all of them get: immunity to energy drain, fortification (50%), slow aging, and a slight chance to turn into the appropriate kind of undead on death (3% per HD) - each as a separate Ex ability, but they can be very useful none the less.

[137beth]

Checking... Elder Evils, page 154: yeah, you can destroy a campaign world that way, but you have no control over the spawn. Which makes it a nuke, but not one that's overly useful.

Sounds like a stronger version of Chicken Infested:smalleek:


You can move pretty much as fast as a Druid. You can become immune to any magic that allows SR and immune to all damage. You can have ridiculously high damage dealing capability. You can bypass almost all barriers. Oh, and a lot of spawn creation is EX.

Overall I don't see how it's not Tier 2. There's a lot of powerful stuff there that can fundamentally upset the game.
Yea, it definitely sounds like tier 2 (at least). I still think it has a huge disadvantage compared to other tier 2s if it lacks long-distance teleportation and plane shift, but I suppose it could get those from UMD.

[Drachasor]

Let's bear in mind the OP is asking about 3.P, in other words Pathfinder. A lot of people are references 3.5.

Hmm, the class the OP talks about does seem to say you don't change your physical body to enable use of an EX (not free claws if you grab RAKE). But it is a bit unclear on what that means. Does that mean you can't be Amorphous?

Not sure if there is any spawning ability that lets you control spawn that's (ex), but PF has a fair amount of spawning and I haven't checked them all out.

[Jack_Simth]

Yea, it definitely sounds like tier 2 (at least). I still think it has a huge disadvantage compared to other tier 2s if it lacks long-distance teleportation and plane shift, but I suppose it could get those from UMD.It can get them via item crafting from the Midguard Dwarf (Frostburn) and Boots/Helm of Teleportation or the Amulet of the Planes. Yes, it's expensive, but they can do it... theoretically earlier than the Wizard can (8th level vs. 9th).

Let's bear in mind the OP is asking about 3.P, in other words Pathfinder. A lot of people are references 3.5.
I thought 3.P generally meant "Pathfinder with 3.X material permitted" in most cases. I'm more familiar with 3.X than with Pathfinder, so that's where I'm checking.

But let's see... Ooh, Inevitable Subtype has two very valuable Ex abilities:

Constructed (Ex) Although inevitables are living outsiders, their bodies are constructed of physical components, and in many ways they function as constructs. For the purposes of effects targeting creatures by type (such as a ranger's favored enemy and bane weapons), inevitables count as both outsiders and constructs. They are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Inevitables are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. They are not at risk of death from massive damage. They have bonus hit points as constructs of their size.
Regeneration (Ex) Inevitables have regeneration/chaotic. The regeneration amount varies by the type of inevitable.The weakest invevitable... has two hit dice. So a warforged-equivalent could have both regeneration and immunity to nonlethal at 3rd level in Pathfinder (plus a host of other nifties) for free, or have both at 2nd with a small amount of expense. Other races could do so at 5th/4th. ... ah, but Regeneration works differently in Pathfinder, so the combo does NOT mean they get to walk around despite massive wounds... still, though, extremely useful. Ah, Ferocity from a 1 HD Orc fixes that. Oooh, many sets of traits are spelled out as Ex in the universal monster rules, as are immunities by default as well as incorporeality ... oh, hey, Immunity to Weapon Damage from a swarm... spider swarm is the weakest at 2 HD... that'll shut most melee characters up. Animated Objects are a bit more useful due to Construction Points... true seeing and freedom of movement are available... OOOH - Invisibile Stalker's Invisibility is Ex in Pathfinder! - if you don't grab Hydra traits, Regenerate Head makes you immune to Vorpal weapons by default... Ettercap Traps is situationally handy (free traps for taking the time to make them... technically of any sort).

So... going strict pathfinder, you've got less of the absolute nature of things, and fewer package deals, but you've got more options for things to grab.