Core Only Thaumaturgist - Best Planar Cohort?

[Naanomi]

I was writing up a Thaumaturgist for a Core-Only game... blatant evil stuff (demons, devils) wouldn't fit the party. What would be a good 'goal' cohort to shoot for at higher levels?

Here are a few I looked at on my own:
Hound Archon
Couatl
Young Celestial Brass Dragon
Very Young Celestial Bronze Dragon
Young Celestial Copper Dragon
Very Young Celestial Gold Dragon
Very Young Celestial Silver Dragon
Celestial Dragonne
Celestial Giant Eagle
Bralani
Djinni
Janni
Celestial Gray Render
Celestial Griffon
Celestial Llamasu
Lillend
Celestial Nymph
Celestial Giant Owl
Celestial Shambling Mound
Celestial Treant

Of these, the Couatl, Celestial Gold Dragon, and Djinni seemed to have the most potential.

Thoughts anyone?

[Clistenes]

Those seem to be really high level. You have to be level 18 to take a Couatl cohort (CR 9), level 17 to take the Celestial Nymph (CR 7) and you have to be level 11 even to take a Hound Archon cohort (CR 4). If you take them, it would be for flavor or to assist in non-combat stuff.

Have you considered a Sylph? Those are small-sized outsiders, usually good, and are pretty optimized: They start with three Outsider HD, CR 3 5, spellcasting as sorcerer 7, Improved Invisibility, Flight, SR 14, Summon Elemental and LA +5 (ECL 8). They can be easily optimized to be very playable.

If you want it just for flavor, I would recommend the Couatl.

[Naanomi]

Sylph isn't Core sadly.

Also I know these are all high level options. Ultimately this was more of a planning thing... like 'I know I want a Djinni buddy eventually, so at low levels I will have a Air Mephit pal' or something like that. Help shape the theme by planning the end point as it were.

[icefractal]

Djinni seems like a pretty good one. It can permanently create vegetable matter, so say hello to unlimited masterwork equipment and tools (made of Darkwood), poison, and anything else vegetable in nature you can find. Also, at-will Plane Shift is useful even at 15th level, and Wind Walk is not bad either.

RP-wise, Djinni seem like fun guys, and there's a fair number of air-elemental creatures you can have on the way to it. And if the game gets to 18th level, Noble Djinni cohort! Wishes! And not the Efreet kind where they're trying to screw you over with them.

[Phelix-Mu]

Djinn are very cool. This might prove an interesting role play challenge, as well. As per the standard fluff, genies generally view Prime mortals (and really all non-genies) as deeply inferior lifeforms, the peasant rabble to the genie aristocracy. This is true even among the non-evil genies; a character would be hard-pressed to earn even passing trust from a djinni, let alone respect and admiration implied by the cohort-leader relationship.

Accordingly, the Thaumaturgist should strive to develop the kind of role play and reputation that may someday lead to a kind of partnership of equals with a djinni (even if the character is strictly stronger, the pride of the djinni will probably make the relationship more egalitarian than subservient, from a role play perspective).

Anyway, an interesting problem to consider. I have long wanted to play a Thaumaturgist, but always find myself DMing instead, lucky to run even involved NPCs, let alone NPC+cohort. Good luck and let us know when/if your plans come to fruition.

[Urpriest]

Celestial creatures won't work, since you need things that can be called with Planar Ally, which means Elemental or Outsider.

Amusingly enough, Aasimar with class levels is probably the most powerful Core option. That said, Djinni is solid and flavorful.

[Naanomi]

Celestial creatures won't work, since you need things that can be called with Planar Ally, which means Elemental or Outsider.

Amusingly enough, Aasimar with class levels is probably the most powerful Core option. That said, Djinni is solid and flavorful.

Darn; half-celestial changes types, somehow I mixed that up in my head. I can do half-celestials right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Planar Ally can call a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), and you would normally hit Thaumaturgist 5 at your 12th character level, just in time to be able to get one.

[Clistenes]

Planar Ally can call a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), and you would normally hit Thaumaturgist 5 at your 12th character level, just in time to be able to get one.

I think the Planar Cohort must be a creature that you can call with Planar Ally and take as Cohort, and while you can call a Ghaele with Planar Ally, I don't think they have LA (so it can't be a Cohort).

[Urpriest]

Darn; half-celestial changes types, somehow I mixed that up in my head. I can do half-celestials right?

Yep! Not even sure it has to be extraplanar, but better safe than sorry on that front.


Planar Ally can call a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), and you would normally hit Thaumaturgist 5 at your 12th character level, just in time to be able to get one.

Waay too high an ECL. Remember, Planar Cohort is still limited by the normal Cohort rules.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think the Planar Cohort must be a creature that you can call with Planar Ally and take as Cohort, and while you can call a Ghaele with Planar Ally, I don't think they have LA (so it can't be a Cohort).

Waay too high an ECL. Remember, Planar Cohort is still limited by the normal Cohort rules.


The planar cohort can’t have more Hit Dice than the thaumaturgist has, and must have an ECL no higher than the thaumaturgist’s character level -2.

Why the redundant limitations, then?

If something required a Constitution score no higher than X, would an undead creature be disqualified from using it due to their lack of a Con score? I doubt it, since not having one does not mean they have one above the limitation.

The same goes for a Planar Cohort, it's recruited not based on ECL, but based on whether it can be called with one of the Planar Ally line of spells. If it has no ECL due to lacking a level adjustment, then you stick to the other limitation of having no more hit dice than the thaumaturgist has.

[Invader]

I'm a big fan of couatl's especially with the history they were given in Eberron with the Rakshasa's.

[Naanomi]

Why the redundant limitations, then?

If something required a Constitution score no higher than X, would an undead creature be disqualified from using it due to their lack of a Con score? I doubt it, since not having one does not mean they have one above the limitation.

The same goes for a Planar Cohort, it's recruited not based on ECL, but based on whether it can be called with one of the Planar Ally line of spells. If it has no ECL due to lacking a level adjustment, then you stick to the other limitation of having no more hit dice than the thaumaturgist has.
No GM I've played with would play it that way. It says AND not OR in the limitation.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No GM I've played with would play it that way. It says AND not OR in the limitation.

But a Ghaele's ECL is either — due to its LA of —, or its ECL is 10 because it has 10 HD. Neither of those possibilities is greater than your character level -2, so it does meet both criteria.

[Urpriest]

But a Ghaele's ECL is either — due to its LA of —, or its ECL is 10 because it has 10 HD. Neither of those possibilities is greater than your character level -2, so it does meet both criteria.

Or a Ghaele's ECL is 20, as per savage species.

Also, you do realize this means that all you have to do is slap an LA -- template on whatever you want and you get two extra levels and all the templates you can fit?

[ericgrau]

I thought a deity chooses what to send you. Anyway if your DM is more lenient than that or too lazy to find them himself here's what I found:

Planar Ally:
Trumpet Archon (LG)
Astral Deva (G)

Greater Planar Ally:
Marileth (CE)
Planetar (G)

They have decent CR for your level, don't take a combat round to call (you can keep one around all day), and they cost a good chunk of money so I suggest using them in combat rather than utility. If you do need something for utility then cleric casting is still nice and at least the price is lower for a briefer service.

Even if it costs you 3,000 gp you're practically doubling your cleric effectiveness by summoning a cleric-y thing about as strong as you. Crazy good for any important fight. Like having another party member. For a 600 gp brief service OTOH I'd usually rather pop a scroll of fix-whatever since it's often faster and cheaper (do carry a wide variety of scrolls btw). Or if you have 10 minutes to wait why don't you have 24 hours to wait and prepare the spell yourself?

You may also use your contingent conjuration ability to get an awesome ally for only 600 gp in random moderately difficult fights. The drawback is that there's a one round delay, so for the BBEG fight you may want to blow the 3,000 gp.

oops reading fail

[Urpriest]

I thought a deity chooses what to send you. Anyway if your DM is more lenient than that or too lazy to find them himself here's what I found:

Planar Ally:
Trumpet Archon (LG)
Astral Deva (G)

Greater Planar Ally:
Marileth (CE)
Planetar (G)

They have decent CR for your level, don't take a combat round to call (you can keep one around all day), and they cost a good chunk of money so I suggest using them in combat rather than utility. If you do need something for utility then cleric casting is still nice and at least the price is lower for a briefer service.

Those are also way too high ECL, unless you ascribe to Biffoniacus_Furiou's interpretation, in which case you ought to be template stacking to high-good-aligned-outer-plane.

Edit: Wait, were you just referring to normal Greater Planar Ally? That's not what the thread is about...

[ericgrau]

Oops reading fail.

I'd go with a hound archon then. Right level for soon after you get the ability, great natural armor, great DR, great SR and nice always on auras for the party. Defense is the main thing on something 2 levels below you. Due to ability score bumps the lost attack bonus from LA isn't too horrible, and outsider HD don't lose any. At will greater teleport is awesome too, even if it is only for himself. Plus I think hound archon paladins may get bronze dragons as mounts, though the mechanics seem a bit fuzzy.

The celestial template turns creatures into magical beasts not outsiders.