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evyldead
2014-01-18, 05:48 PM
I am wondering what is the most powerful build at level 12. No gestalt, no ToB, no Psionics. Straight up 3.5 D&D I have a trip build I am currently playing insanely good but he lacks the strength but thats why i tok him wizard for spell sword so when he trips you your getting spellsword channel and spellstoring weapon yea some scorching rays to his face to the big bad guys. BUT !!!!!!!!!!! I am looking for something different of the whole fighter and wizard and cleric and rogue stuff. I want something more, to be able to do what others can't. Honestly I don't even know what I want. Thats why i want to see everyone's most powerful build level 12 or 13.

Slipperychicken
2014-01-18, 05:51 PM
inb4 Pun-pun.

Kazyan
2014-01-18, 05:53 PM
inb4--

Aww.

How much in the way of dirty tricks do you want?

(Un)Inspired
2014-01-18, 05:53 PM
Since when were psionics and tome of battle not straight up d and d?

Slipperychicken
2014-01-18, 05:55 PM
Since when were psionics and tome of battle not straight up d and d?

Since they gave nice things to melee, and you know we can't have that.

ZamielVanWeber
2014-01-18, 05:55 PM
Since when were psionics and tome of battle not straight up d and d?

ToB isn't but Incarnum is :smallconfused:

Wizard/Cleric/Druid with well picked PrCs will always rock at 12.

Invader
2014-01-18, 06:03 PM
Incanatrix will pretty much decimate anything your DM throws at you by 12th level.

Karnith
2014-01-18, 06:13 PM
If we're not going full-on Pun-Pun, the most powerful 12th-level build is basically going to be some mixture of the silly casting PrCs. Some of the notable ones include:
Incantatrix - Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect (the capstone is unfortunately out of reach at 12th-level); what's not to like?
Spelldancer - Feat-intensive, but a one-level dip is a source of as much free metamagic as you want
Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer - A one-level dip for the easily-abused Tainted Spellcasting
Haluraan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard - 5 levels in any of these classes lets you abuse Circle Magic
Illithid Savant/Beholder Mage - If you can sneak your way in, why not?
Even without all of the silly PrCs (or even without any PrCs at all, really), some form of full-caster build will come out on top.

Grod_The_Giant
2014-01-18, 06:18 PM
"Most powerful builds" is probably not what you're looking for, since the power meter in 3.5 literally goes all the way up to infinity (Pun-Pun). That said, strong, interesting builds?

Human Druid of Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 7 lets you wildshape into a thoroughly ridiculous number of things, including picking up their (Ex) special qualities. As a variant, you can go Ranger or Druid 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 2, which doesn't give you as strong a wild shape but does nab you Multimorph, letting you change forms as often as you like within the duration of wildshape. Between Wildshape's absurd duration and Humanoid Wild Shape from MoMF, you'll pretty much never run out of shapeshifting or go back to your "real" form. Never.

Beguiler 5/Sandshaper 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 6 can be fun. Beguiler already has a huge variety of spells, and the one-level Sandshaper dip gives you something like 30 more to patch up the holes in the Beguiler's list-- buffs, BFC, non-mind affecting SoDs, summons, direct damage, and more. Following that up with Mage to get access to the spellpool, letting you snag situational spells whenever you need 'em.

(A cheesier variant of the above is to go Beguiler/Rainbow Servant, as long as your DM agrees with the "text over table" reading of the spell progression. You can use early entry tricks to finish the class by level 11, adding every cleric spell in existence to your class list. That you cast spontaneously from. Jump into Sacred Exorcist for level 12 to pick up Turn Undead and make cloistered clerics weep with envy).

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Fist of Raziel 5 makes a lovely paladin.

Petrocorus
2014-01-18, 07:22 PM
If we're not going full-on Pun-Pun, the most powerful 12th-level build is basically going to be some mixture of the silly casting PrCs. Some of the notable ones include:
Incantatrix - Cooperative Metamagic, Metamagic Effect, Metamagic Spell Trigger; what's not to like?
Spelldancer - Feat-intensive, but a one-level dip is a source of as much free metamagic as you want
Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer - A one-level dip for the easily-abused Tainted Spellcasting
Haluraan Elder/Hathran/Red Wizard - 5 levels in any of these classes lets you abuse Circle Magic
Illithid Savant/Beholder Mage - If you can sneak your way in, why not?
Even without all of the silly PrCs (or even without any PrCs at all, really), some form of full-caster build will come out on top.

We must had the:
Shadowcraft Mage - With some feat optimisation, you can cast enpower extended etc 9th level spells out of a 4th level spell slot.
Initiate of the Sevenfoil Veil - Can almost make you invulnerable to anything and it's not even hard to qualify.
Dweomerkeeper - Turn your spell into Su, avoid XP cost on your wish, true creation, genesis, etc...


Of course, if we're going into sillyness and True Mind Switch / PAO abuse, then Beholder Mage / Ur-Priest / Fochlucan Lyrist / Incantatrix / Dweomerkeeper is surely possible.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2014-01-18, 08:00 PM
Powerful at what, exactly? It looks like you're into melee combat, so I'll go with that.

Human, Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 3/ Abjurant Champion 2; For your Wizard domain, pick Abjuration or Battle, unless you can find a homebrew domain that your DM will allow that's better suited to buffing yourself in melee. Your Human Paragon class-skill-forever should be either Use Magic Device or Tumble. Definitely get at least five ranks in Balance, Jump, and Tumble via your Human Paragon and Fighter levels. Your +2 from Human Paragon should go to Intelligence.

Ability score priority should be Int > Con > Str at least 13 its otherwise a dump stat > Dex must be 15 or lower > Wis/Cha are dump stats. For a 32-pointbuy, you want to go Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8, and put all your level-up points and your Human Paragon bonus into Int for a natural Int 23.

Have a good alignment, though law/chaos is irrelevant. You must not only be good, but just as goody-two-shoes as a Paladin, because you want to be able to cast Sanctified spells from BoED. The rules on sanctified spells specifically requires a good alignment, and while it implies that you need an exalted status, by RAW you only need to be good aligned. Just be super-good and never bring it into question unless it would really matter (i.e. you wouldn't be able to cast them any more).

Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for two extra feats: City Slicker and Bravado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30). Gain Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel for 4,000 gp.

Feats: Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard (F), Combat Casting (F), Extend Spell (H), (1), Power Attack (F1), Combat Reflexes (W1), Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) (3), Persistent Spell (HP2), Iron Will ($), Spell Focus: Transmutation (6), Fell Drain Spell (Icx1), Ability Enhancer (9), Minor Shapeshift (12), Blind-Fight (Bite of the Werewolf/Weretiger).

Ability Enhancer from Dragon Compendium makes it so, "Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does." That does not specify that it only affects spells that grant an enhancement bonus, only that the spell enhances, or increases, an ability score. That means any transmutation spell you cast that provides any increase to an ability score increases it by an additional +2, for each ability score it increases. It has Spell Focus: Transmutation as a prerequisite.

Your Item Familiar should start out as a Ring of Protection which you paid full price for (2,000 gp). From there you can upgrade it yourself as though you possessed all the right feats, but you still need to meet any other prerequisites. An item familiar is an intelligent item, which is regarded as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. Always wear a glove or gauntlet over it so nobody will ever have line of sight/effect to it and it cannot be slight of handed or attacked directly. You gain it at 3rd level, so all of your 4th+ level skill points should be invested into it for the greatest return, which should be applied toward Spellcraft.

Incantatrix from Player's Guide to Faerun is what makes this build work. You can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells when not in combat as the action economy system only exists during initiative. At your current level you should have 15 ranks in Spellcraft, with a +15 for your Item Familiar's invested ranks, +2 Synergy for Knowledge: Arcana, a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for another +2, an Insight bonus of +5 added to your Item Familiar as an additional property for 1,875 gp and 150 xp, and your Int bonus of +6 makes it around +45. If you take ten you can make a DC 55 check. The DC to use Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Effect to Persist a 5th level spell is 51. At your next level you'll be able to make a DC 57 check by taking ten, and the DC to Persist a 6th level spell is 54. Two levels later you'll be making a DC 61 check, and a Persistent 7th level spell is DC 57. Basically, you'll always be able to persist the highest-level spells you can cast by taking ten on the check with those abilities.

Your daily buffs should look something like the following (spells marked with * benefit from Ability Enhancer):
Persistent Wraithstrike; Persistent Draconic Polymorph* into a War Troll; Persistent Fell Drain Fire Shield twice (hot and cold); Persistent Fell Drain Death Armor; Greater Luminous Armor; Persistent Elation* (whole party); Persistent Shield; Persistent Expeditious Retreat; Persistent Ray Deflection; Persistent Friendly Fire; Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives; Persistent Bite of the Werewolf/Weretiger*; Persistent Swift Fly; Persistent Bladeweave; Heart of Water; Heart of Earth; Persistent Greater/Superior Invisibility; Extended Greater Magic Weapon; Greater/Superior Resistance; you should be getting the idea. You should also have Permanency at least See Invisibility and Darkvision. Remember you get a 10% XP bonus for having the Item Familiar, but you don't want to spend so much that you start at a lower level.

Your other spells prepared should include an array of efficient crowd controls and fight-winning nukes (Web, Glitterdust, Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist, Solid Fog, Fell Drain Black Tentacles), plus a few utility spells (Benign Transposition, Ebon Eyes, Dimension Hop/Step, Dispel Magic, Arcane Turmoil, Teleport, Rope Trick). Always keep an extra Polymorph spell prepared so you can always use your Minor Shapeshift reserve feat to get a temporary hp pool every round.

Standard equipment for a 12th level character is 88,000 gp. You don't need to spend anything on items that grant AC bonuses, flight, or ability score bonuses other than Intelligence. You can add certain flat bonuses to certain types of existing items for no more than it would cost for a separate item of that same bonus per Magic Item Compendium p234. Also keep in mind the necessary effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) you want from items/buffs.
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend (3,000 gp)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize (14,000 gp)
+1 Spell Storing weapon (8,300 gp), put (Lesser Rod of Maximized) Shivering Touch in it.
^ Spellblade (PGtF) for Greater Dispel Magic (6,000 gp)
Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC, 15,000 gp)
^ +2 Intelligence added (4,000 gp)
Armbands of Might (MIC, 4,100 gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
Banner of the Storm's Eye (MIC, 15,000 gp)
Anklet of Translocation (MIC, 1,400gp)
Healing Belt (MIC, 750 gp)
Item Familiar* (7,750 gp, 460 xp, 600 gp)
Spell Component Pouch (5 gp)
6,095 gp, minus the base (non-masterwork) price of the above melee weapon. Spend what you need on additional spells at Spell Level x 50 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings) copied from another wizard, plus 100 gp per page and one page per spell level, so total 150 gp per spell level per additional spell.

Your Item Familiar started as a +1 Ring of Protection, for 2,000 gp. You upgraded it yourself to a Ring of Counterspells that has a +1 Deflection bonus to AC added, which cost you 2,000 gp and 160 xp. You then added a +5 Competence bonus to Spellcraft (bonus squared x 100 gp x1.5 for an additional ability) for 1,875 gp and 150 xp. You also added the properties of a Ring of Sustenance, again at +50% cost for an additional property, for another 1,875 gp and 150 xp, plus 600 gp for NPC spellcasting of Create Food and Water four times.

At your current level, you'll have the following stats:
Large size, 10 ft. reach, always invisible.
AC 53 (+10 Greater Luminous Armor, +6 Shield, +18 natural, +1 deflection, -1 size, +9 Dex), Touch 19, Flat-Footed 44, Incorporeal Touch 35
Speed: 75 ft. land, Fly 60 ft. Good maneuverability.
Fort +22, Reflex +14, Will +18

Str 47 +18 (31 War Troll, +8 Draconic Polymorph*, +4 Elation*, +4 Bite of the Werewolf*)
Dex 28 +9 (16 War Troll, +2 Draconic Polymorph*, +4 Elation*, +6 Bite of the Werewolf*)
Con 39 +14 (29 War Troll, +4 Draconic Polymorph*, +6 Bite of the Werewolf*)
Int 27 +8 (18 base, +2 Human Paragon, +3 levels, +4 Enhancement)
Wis 8 -1
Cha 8 -1

BAB +8, Grapple +30
+1 Spell Storing Melee Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon +3, two-handed, Power Attacking for -8, Large size: +20/+15 melee touch, 3d6 (greatsword) or 2d8 (glaive) +39, plus Dazing Blow, plus Bladeweave, full attack action.
Fell Drain Cloud of Knives: +20 ranged (max 30 ft.) 1d6+4 plus one negative level, free action.
Bite: +12 melee touch, 1d6+9, secondary natural attack when making a full attack.
Fell Drain Fire Shield, Death Armor: Any time anyone attacks you with a non-reach melee weapon, they take 1d6+12 fire damage plus one negative level, 1d6+12 cold damage plus one negative level, and 1d4+6 untyped damage plus one negative level. That's three negative levels gained for attacking you, but any given creature only gains the negative levels for those once per round.


If you're level 13, get one more level of Incantatrix and take Selective Spell for your bonus metamagic feat. Include Selective Persistent Antimagic Field in your daily buffs, so you and your spells and your attended items are not affected by it, but everyone else and their spells and their attended items are still affected. You're in an AMF for purposes of opponents being able to cast spells on you, for opponents' weapons being nonmagical when striking you, etc. You never consider the AMF's presence when casting spells or making attacks, because you're selectively excluded from being affected by it in any way. Plus you can replace Bite of the Werewolf with Bite of the Weretiger for an additional Str +10, Con +2, and +1 natural armor, and your bite goes to 2d6 base damage.

Future levels should include the fourth Incantatrix level, then the rest of Abjurant Champion, and then finish with Eldritch Knight.

eggynack
2014-01-18, 08:30 PM
Planar shepherd makes for some of the most powerful stuff in the game, and it requires little in the way of combination or abuse to be utterly ridiculous. Really, nothing that starts at druid+ and moves on from there is going to be fair.

Rubik
2014-01-18, 10:40 PM
The most powerful level 12 I've found is someone who manages to merge with a 128 HD devastation beetle, takes an extra +2 HD from bardic music, uses that 130 as his caster level, and then retrains all of the racial HD into as many levels of illithid savant as possible.

It's every bit as strong as Pun Pun if you know what you're doing.

Of course, I used a psion as the base for it, but still.

And I managed it by level 9. Possibly 7, with the right equipment.

eggynack
2014-01-18, 10:50 PM
It's every bit as strong as Pun Pun if you know what you're doing.

That seems vaguely impossible, given that pun-pun can have the ability, "Is exactly like that devastation beetle illithid savant, except doubled. Just straight up doubled somehow. Don't even ask what doubling means in this context, because if you come up with something for it to mean, it means exactly that." That build seems pretty awesome though.

Rubik
2014-01-18, 10:52 PM
That seems vaguely impossible, given that pun-pun can have the ability, "Is exactly like that devastation beetle illithid savant, except doubled. Just straight up doubled somehow. Don't even ask what doubling means in this context, because if you come up with something for it to mean, it means exactly that." That build seems pretty awesome though.I have yet to think up anything the build can't do, especially since epic spellcasting is involved, especially since the build has 34,000,000+ spellcasting minions through Leadership shenanigans, and can research any epic spell as a free action without mitigation.

eggynack
2014-01-18, 10:59 PM
I have yet to think up anything the build can't do, especially since epic spellcasting is involved, especially since the build has 34,000,000+ spellcasting minions through Leadership shenanigans, and can research any epic spell as a free action without mitigation.
Well, it can't do double exactly that thing. Like, pun-pun incidentally has 68,000,000++ spellcasting minions, and all of those minions are twice as awesome as the savant's minions, because why not? Also, pun-pun can research two epic spells as an immediate action (so he can do it off-turn), and with weird anti-mitigation at that. This illithid savant can probably solve just about any problem in existence, and a few besides, but pun-pun is always going to be better, because pun-pun transcends the rules.

Rubik
2014-01-18, 11:20 PM
Well, it can't do double exactly that thing. Like, pun-pun incidentally has 68,000,000++ spellcasting minions, and all of those minions are twice as awesome as the savant's minions, because why not? Also, pun-pun can research two epic spells as an immediate action (so he can do it off-turn), and with weird anti-mitigation at that. This illithid savant can probably solve just about any problem in existence, and a few besides, but pun-pun is always going to be better, because pun-pun transcends the rules.Essentially, unless Pun-Pun himself is involved, that build can do just as well as he can, for all intents and purposes. If it's pitted against the big PP, however, it's pretty much toast, but then again, everything else is, too.

Mithril Leaf
2014-01-18, 11:23 PM
Essentially, unless Pun-Pun himself is involved, that build can do just as well as he can, for all intents and purposes. If it's pitted against the big PP, however, it's pretty much toast, but then again, everything else is, too.

So it's basically PP lite. Which was already inb4'd.:smalltongue:

NemoX
2014-01-18, 11:33 PM
....Just what exactly is "Pun-Pun" ? :confused:

I'm way too new and that is completely going over my head lol

Karnith
2014-01-18, 11:35 PM
....Just what exactly is "Pun-Pun" ? :confused:

I'm way too new and that is completely going over my head lol
I believe that this thread should explain Pun-Pun the Mighty Kobold well enough (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486), but in short it's a theoretical optimization (TO) build known for being able to do essentially anything. Arbitrarily-large stats, immunity to everything, every special ability in the game, that kind of thing.

NemoX
2014-01-18, 11:41 PM
I believe that this thread should explain Pun-Pun well enough (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1013486), but in short it's a theoretical optimization (TO) build known for being able to do essentially anything. Arbitrarily-large stats, immunity to everything, every special ability in the game, that kind of thing.

Thanks, I'll give it a read

Barmoz
2014-01-18, 11:43 PM
12 is where a fighter can take Robilar's Gambit, so that's where Jack B Quick starts getting really good. I've got a gestalt character going currently that's 8, and right now I feel pretty weak but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel as 9-12 I gain a ton each level.

EugeneVoid
2014-01-19, 12:28 AM
Casters are infinitely (figure of speech) stronger than noncasters at this point

Erik Vale
2014-01-19, 12:52 AM
Wizard 5 [Spontainous Divination]/Ultimate Magus 7. Grants you level 16 Wizard casting, and ability to sacrifice lower level spell slots for metamagic.

Now, this presumes you ignore pun-pun and other low level TO builds. If you think metamagic is slightly more important go Wizard 5/UM4/Incantrix 3 for Incantrix cheese + Wizard 14 casting. Actually, given you only loose out one spell level W5/UM4/I3 is probably slightly better.

Mithril Leaf
2014-01-19, 12:57 AM
Wizard 5 [Spontainous Divination]/Ultimate Magus 7. Grants you level 16 Wizard casting, and ability to sacrifice lower level spell slots for metamagic.

Now, this presumes you ignore pun-pun and other low level TO builds. If you think metamagic is slightly more important go Wizard 5/UM4/Incantrix 3 for Incantrix cheese + Wizard 14 casting. Actually, given you only loose out one spell level W5/UM4/I3 is probably slightly better.

If we're playing this game I invoke Sha'ir 3/Mystic Theurge 9 for level 21 Sha'ir casting (which has the wizard spell list and several diving domains).

Fates
2014-01-19, 01:57 AM
Wizard 5 [Spontainous Divination]/Ultimate Magus 7. Grants you level 16 Wizard casting, and ability to sacrifice lower level spell slots for metamagic.

Now, this presumes you ignore pun-pun and other low level TO builds. If you think metamagic is slightly more important go Wizard 5/UM4/Incantrix 3 for Incantrix cheese + Wizard 14 casting. Actually, given you only loose out one spell level W5/UM4/I3 is probably slightly better.

Whoah, whoah, let's not go down that road. That road is built of particularly sharp rocks, and boasts disproportionate incidence of assault by flocks of flying books.

Erik Vale
2014-01-19, 04:07 AM
*Late reply by guy with spotty internet*
... The Sha'ir looks like a reeeeeeally bad sorcerer/wizard crossover with a splash of cleric for good measure, drawing a tiny bit of inspiration [I think] from spirit shaman.

If it weren't for it solo qualifying for Mystic Theurge, I wouldn't look at it twice. However, as is, it's the fastest way to get the most broken spells in the game.

However, Sha'ir/MT or S/MT/I look to be the most powerful character barring TO. If you can get some way to reduce the time requirements on fetching spells then it becomes pretty good, especially with the ability to refresh spell slots after using them without sleep.
Of course, it's Gen is more valuable to it than any wizard's spell book or familiar, to bad you can't work around it.

Kraken
2014-01-19, 04:12 AM
With a caster level of 21, that's easy, as I'm guessing with that interpretation of MT you wouldn't be averse to abusing genesis and astral projection.

Erik Vale
2014-01-19, 05:18 AM
Only using RAW interpretation.

I stay away from genesis time fiddling debates, but yes, at this stage of play persistant timestop is a thing. This build doesn't affect others with it which means that your spell gatherer couldn't use it [lack share spells] [for that you need spellguard and warweaver. 24 Hour Multi-Person timestop FTW].

Petrocorus
2014-01-19, 09:32 AM
I'm pretty sure the Sha'Ir / MT build was discussed on this forum already, and several people on the RAW question thread said that does not work.
I cannot find the question obviously, but that would deserve one.
Anyway, RAW or not, trying to get caster level superior to your ECL is a good way to get smitten by the DM.
However the Sha'ir is a class i like and there is room for a lot of optimisation with it. Going Dweomerkeeper or Skypledged or both for example.

Solophoenix
2014-01-19, 04:31 PM
I'm pretty sure the Sha'Ir / MT build was discussed on this forum already, and several people on the RAW question thread said that does not work.
I cannot find the question obviously, but that would deserve one.

Well, for one, if you're interpreting the rules so painfully literally, then you run into the fact that by RAW, Mystic Theurge doesn't advance spells known. So have fun waiting 1d6+Spell Level minutes for every spell you want, and then only having them available for 3 hours.

Sure, it's still versatile, but not quite as broken as one might hope.

Petrocorus
2014-01-19, 04:40 PM
Well, for one, if you're interpreting the rules so painfully literally, then you run into the fact that by RAW, Mystic Theurge doesn't advance spells known. So have fun waiting 1d6+Spell Level minutes for every spell you want, and then only having them available for 3 hours.

Sure, it's still versatile, but not quite as broken as one might hope.

So, you're saying that whether we accept an interpretation that allows to have a CL of 19 at ECL 11, or that we must accept that half of the main class feature are not advance by MT, and that incidentally, Sorcerer cannot use MT.
There is optimising and there is rules lawyering.

Solophoenix
2014-01-19, 05:16 PM
So, you're saying that whether we accept an interpretation that allows to have a CL of 19 at ECL 11, or that we must accept that half of the main class feature are not advance by MT, and that incidentally, Sorcerer cannot use MT.
There is optimising and there is rules lawyering.

I would consider both of the interpretations as pretty awful abuse of the RAW. I pointed out the Mystic Theurge quirk more as an example of not being able to have your cake and eat it too.

Mithril Leaf
2014-01-19, 05:54 PM
I would consider both of the interpretations as pretty awful abuse of the RAW. I pointed out the Mystic Theurge quirk more as an example of not being able to have your cake and eat it too.

I had initially only pointed it out to counter the wizard/wizard ultimate magus build. Neither are reasonable.

evyldead
2014-01-20, 09:22 PM
Powerful at what, exactly? It looks like you're into melee combat, so I'll go with that.

Human, Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard) Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 3/ Abjurant Champion 2; For your Wizard domain, pick Abjuration or Battle, unless you can find a homebrew domain that your DM will allow that's better suited to buffing yourself in melee. Your Human Paragon class-skill-forever should be either Use Magic Device or Tumble. Definitely get at least five ranks in Balance, Jump, and Tumble via your Human Paragon and Fighter levels. Your +2 from Human Paragon should go to Intelligence.

Ability score priority should be Int > Con > Str at least 13 its otherwise a dump stat > Dex must be 15 or lower > Wis/Cha are dump stats. For a 32-pointbuy, you want to go Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 8, and put all your level-up points and your Human Paragon bonus into Int for a natural Int 23.

Have a good alignment, though law/chaos is irrelevant. You must not only be good, but just as goody-two-shoes as a Paladin, because you want to be able to cast Sanctified spells from BoED. The rules on sanctified spells specifically requires a good alignment, and while it implies that you need an exalted status, by RAW you only need to be good aligned. Just be super-good and never bring it into question unless it would really matter (i.e. you wouldn't be able to cast them any more).

Get two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for two extra feats: City Slicker and Bravado (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258440#30). Gain Iron Will via the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel for 4,000 gp.

Feats: Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard (F), Combat Casting (F), Extend Spell (H), (1), Power Attack (F1), Combat Reflexes (W1), Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) (3), Persistent Spell (HP2), Iron Will ($), Spell Focus: Transmutation (6), Fell Drain Spell (Icx1), Ability Enhancer (9), Minor Shapeshift (12), Blind-Fight (Bite of the Werewolf/Weretiger).

Ability Enhancer from Dragon Compendium makes it so, "Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does." That does not specify that it only affects spells that grant an enhancement bonus, only that the spell enhances, or increases, an ability score. That means any transmutation spell you cast that provides any increase to an ability score increases it by an additional +2, for each ability score it increases. It has Spell Focus: Transmutation as a prerequisite.

Your Item Familiar should start out as a Ring of Protection which you paid full price for (2,000 gp). From there you can upgrade it yourself as though you possessed all the right feats, but you still need to meet any other prerequisites. An item familiar is an intelligent item, which is regarded as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic and dead magic areas. Always wear a glove or gauntlet over it so nobody will ever have line of sight/effect to it and it cannot be slight of handed or attacked directly. You gain it at 3rd level, so all of your 4th+ level skill points should be invested into it for the greatest return, which should be applied toward Spellcraft.

Incantatrix from Player's Guide to Faerun is what makes this build work. You can use Cooperative Metamagic on your own spells when not in combat as the action economy system only exists during initiative. At your current level you should have 15 ranks in Spellcraft, with a +15 for your Item Familiar's invested ranks, +2 Synergy for Knowledge: Arcana, a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for another +2, an Insight bonus of +5 added to your Item Familiar as an additional property for 1,875 gp and 150 xp, and your Int bonus of +6 makes it around +45. If you take ten you can make a DC 55 check. The DC to use Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Effect to Persist a 5th level spell is 51. At your next level you'll be able to make a DC 57 check by taking ten, and the DC to Persist a 6th level spell is 54. Two levels later you'll be making a DC 61 check, and a Persistent 7th level spell is DC 57. Basically, you'll always be able to persist the highest-level spells you can cast by taking ten on the check with those abilities.

Your daily buffs should look something like the following (spells marked with * benefit from Ability Enhancer):
Persistent Wraithstrike; Persistent Draconic Polymorph* into a War Troll; Persistent Fell Drain Fire Shield twice (hot and cold); Persistent Fell Drain Death Armor; Greater Luminous Armor; Persistent Elation* (whole party); Persistent Shield; Persistent Expeditious Retreat; Persistent Ray Deflection; Persistent Friendly Fire; Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives; Persistent Bite of the Werewolf/Weretiger*; Persistent Swift Fly; Persistent Bladeweave; Heart of Water; Heart of Earth; Persistent Greater/Superior Invisibility; Extended Greater Magic Weapon; Greater/Superior Resistance; you should be getting the idea. You should also have Permanency at least See Invisibility and Darkvision. Remember you get a 10% XP bonus for having the Item Familiar, but you don't want to spend so much that you start at a lower level.

Your other spells prepared should include an array of efficient crowd controls and fight-winning nukes (Web, Glitterdust, Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist, Solid Fog, Fell Drain Black Tentacles), plus a few utility spells (Benign Transposition, Ebon Eyes, Dimension Hop/Step, Dispel Magic, Arcane Turmoil, Teleport, Rope Trick). Always keep an extra Polymorph spell prepared so you can always use your Minor Shapeshift reserve feat to get a temporary hp pool every round.

Standard equipment for a 12th level character is 88,000 gp. You don't need to spend anything on items that grant AC bonuses, flight, or ability score bonuses other than Intelligence. You can add certain flat bonuses to certain types of existing items for no more than it would cost for a separate item of that same bonus per Magic Item Compendium p234. Also keep in mind the necessary effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) you want from items/buffs.
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend (3,000 gp)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Maximize (14,000 gp)
+1 Spell Storing weapon (8,300 gp), put (Lesser Rod of Maximized) Shivering Touch in it.
^ Spellblade (PGtF) for Greater Dispel Magic (6,000 gp)
Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC, 15,000 gp)
^ +2 Intelligence added (4,000 gp)
Armbands of Might (MIC, 4,100 gp)
Handy Haversack (2,000 gp)
Banner of the Storm's Eye (MIC, 15,000 gp)
Anklet of Translocation (MIC, 1,400gp)
Healing Belt (MIC, 750 gp)
Item Familiar* (7,750 gp, 460 xp, 600 gp)
Spell Component Pouch (5 gp)
6,095 gp, minus the base (non-masterwork) price of the above melee weapon. Spend what you need on additional spells at Spell Level x 50 gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings) copied from another wizard, plus 100 gp per page and one page per spell level, so total 150 gp per spell level per additional spell.

Your Item Familiar started as a +1 Ring of Protection, for 2,000 gp. You upgraded it yourself to a Ring of Counterspells that has a +1 Deflection bonus to AC added, which cost you 2,000 gp and 160 xp. You then added a +5 Competence bonus to Spellcraft (bonus squared x 100 gp x1.5 for an additional ability) for 1,875 gp and 150 xp. You also added the properties of a Ring of Sustenance, again at +50% cost for an additional property, for another 1,875 gp and 150 xp, plus 600 gp for NPC spellcasting of Create Food and Water four times.

At your current level, you'll have the following stats:
Large size, 10 ft. reach, always invisible.
AC 53 (+10 Greater Luminous Armor, +6 Shield, +18 natural, +1 deflection, -1 size, +9 Dex), Touch 19, Flat-Footed 44, Incorporeal Touch 35
Speed: 75 ft. land, Fly 60 ft. Good maneuverability.
Fort +22, Reflex +14, Will +18

Str 47 +18 (31 War Troll, +8 Draconic Polymorph*, +4 Elation*, +4 Bite of the Werewolf*)
Dex 28 +9 (16 War Troll, +2 Draconic Polymorph*, +4 Elation*, +6 Bite of the Werewolf*)
Con 39 +14 (29 War Troll, +4 Draconic Polymorph*, +6 Bite of the Werewolf*)
Int 27 +8 (18 base, +2 Human Paragon, +3 levels, +4 Enhancement)
Wis 8 -1
Cha 8 -1

BAB +8, Grapple +30
+1 Spell Storing Melee Weapon, Greater Magic Weapon +3, two-handed, Power Attacking for -8, Large size: +20/+15 melee touch, 3d6 (greatsword) or 2d8 (glaive) +39, plus Dazing Blow, plus Bladeweave, full attack action.
Fell Drain Cloud of Knives: +20 ranged (max 30 ft.) 1d6+4 plus one negative level, free action.
Bite: +12 melee touch, 1d6+9, secondary natural attack when making a full attack.
Fell Drain Fire Shield, Death Armor: Any time anyone attacks you with a non-reach melee weapon, they take 1d6+12 fire damage plus one negative level, 1d6+12 cold damage plus one negative level, and 1d4+6 untyped damage plus one negative level. That's three negative levels gained for attacking you, but any given creature only gains the negative levels for those once per round.


If you're level 13, get one more level of Incantatrix and take Selective Spell for your bonus metamagic feat. Include Selective Persistent Antimagic Field in your daily buffs, so you and your spells and your attended items are not affected by it, but everyone else and their spells and their attended items are still affected. You're in an AMF for purposes of opponents being able to cast spells on you, for opponents' weapons being nonmagical when striking you, etc. You never consider the AMF's presence when casting spells or making attacks, because you're selectively excluded from being affected by it in any way. Plus you can replace Bite of the Werewolf with Bite of the Weretiger for an additional Str +10, Con +2, and +1 natural armor, and your bite goes to 2d6 base damage.

Future levels should include the fourth Incantatrix level, then the rest of Abjurant Champion, and then finish with Eldritch Knight.

love this build but how can you use abjuration champion and spells when you have to have it as a prohibited school for incantrix?

Seer_of_Heart
2014-01-21, 12:05 AM
love this build but how can you use abjuration champion and spells when you have to have it as a prohibited school for incantrix?

It says you cannot ban abjuration, not you must ban it.

Zweisteine
2014-01-21, 01:38 AM
My personal favorite ATM is Whisper Gnome Gnome Focused Illusionist (wizard variant) 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5. The killer gnome is awesome. (feats: heighten spell, spell focus (illusion), earth sense, earth spell)


If you want to go to level 20, use some early entry tricks and the dark chaos shuffle to do this somehow:
Whisper Gnome Wizard (focused illusionist, gnome illusionist) 2/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcrafter 3/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Earth Dreamer 5/Nightmare Spinner 1. Go to town with your spammy magic, infinite utility value, and spazzy number of illusions per day.

Bonus points if you find a way to get flying dirt to stand on at all times.

Mithril Leaf
2014-01-22, 12:31 AM
My personal favorite ATM is Whisper Gnome Gnome Focused Illusionist (wizard variant) 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5. The killer gnome is awesome. (feats: heighten spell, spell focus (illusion), earth sense, earth spell)


If you want to go to level 20, use some early entry tricks and the dark chaos shuffle to do this somehow:
Whisper Gnome Wizard (focused illusionist, gnome illusionist) 2/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcrafter 3/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Earth Dreamer 5/Nightmare Spinner 1. Go to town with your spammy magic, infinite utility value, and spazzy number of illusions per day.

Bonus points if you find a way to get flying dirt to stand on at all times.

Or you could just go ahead with a standard Wizard 5/Shadowcraft Mage 4/Shadow Adept 1/Incantatrix 10 for Miracles from your first level slots.