[PF] Making magic unreliable for a campaign?

[Neknoh]

So I'm fiddling with the start of my own campaign world, it's a great distraction from the work on my novel whilst keeping me alert in the proper ways. I am also just about to start a campaign of Rise of the Runelords as a first time player, as such, it is a good learning experience.

Now, what I am wondering is how I'd best represent magic, as we have come to know it, being torn and damaged in the world and not yet recovered. I do not wish to take too much away from casters, I don't intend to pick appart certain spells, but rather something that works on magic as a whole.

I am currently contemplating a 1/10 or 1/20 risk of spells simply not being cast, not taking up spell allotment by doing so, but still taking up whatever action it normally would. Players would, of course, be informed of this before making their characters.

Basically, I'm after something flavourful that can be represented by a mechanic without being too punishing but still making magic a little bit less powerful.

[Slipperychicken]

Require a concentration check to cast spells at all?. The DC would likely be around 10 + spell level. If they fail the check and simultaneously roll a natural 1, maybe they roll on a mishap table?

With this idea, high-level spellcasters could still fail to cast roughly 1/20th of the time, but they wouldn't suffer mishaps.

[Neknoh]

I'm not too fond miscasts, not since the tragic Tzeentch-Lord-Dragon-Rider of '08 :smalleek:

On a more serious note though, I do not wish to severely punish those who pick up a caster, and I always want the magic to be fickle and just a little bit less reliable. Then again, I might simply be overestimating the encumbrance of spellcasting from an "Always Conc.-check" rule

[NightbringerGGZ]

Concentration checks to cast wouldn't be a bad idea. You can make the effect vary by region as well to add some interesting dynamics. Perhaps use ley-lines, where you can cast with a low DC for Concentration and increase the difficulty the further you move from one?

[BWR]

Problem with a concentration check, or a spellcraft check, is that it quickly gets to be useless. If the DC is low enough to allow first level casters to cast at all, it quickly becomes an automatic success for more experienced casters. This may be one way to do it, but if you want magic to be universally difficult and equally difficult for all casters, it won't work.

You could make it all wild magic (the 2e kind from Tome of Magic, not that lousy 3e attempt).
Spells don't fail outright, but effective CL varies depending on a die roll and you have a 5% chance to invoke a wild surge with random effects, instead of the normal spell effect.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Problem with a concentration check, or a spellcraft check, is that it quickly gets to be useless. If the DC is low enough to allow first level casters to cast at all, it quickly becomes an automatic success for more experienced casters. This may be one way to do it, but if you want magic to be universally difficult and equally difficult for all casters, it won't work.

You could make it all wild magic (the 2e kind from Tome of Magic, not that lousy 3e attempt).
Spells don't fail outright, but effective CL varies depending on a die roll and you have a 5% chance to invoke a wild surge with random effects, instead of the normal spell effect.

Remember that in Pathfinder Concentration isn't a skill. Instead you use your caster level as your bonus on rolls and there are a few feats & traits to boost your Concentration check as well.

[Kudaku]

It should be noted that most concentration checks in Pathfinder are designed to get easier with level and are fairly to trivially easy if the player takes it into consideration and builds accordingly.

The DC for casting on the defensive increases linearly with caster level for a full progression caster (+2 DC for every spell level, ie every two levels), while there are numerous other sources (ability, feats, traits, items etc) of bonuses to the check itself.

[Pex]

Spell DC is 1d20 + spell level + ability score modifier

Natural 1 rolled, spell fizzles

Natural 20 rolled, minor free metamagic effect of DM choice (empowered for a damage spell, extended for a charm spell, spell component not used for one with a significant expense, etc.)

As for the idea itself, it greatly disadvantages the players for the same reasons critical fumbles for fighting would. Players are on camera all the time so suffer from magical mishaps a lot more often than any one particular bad guy spellcaster who's just there for the combat and was expected to die anyway. Spells now have two chances of failing, one for failing to be cast at all and one for the normal effect of opponent making the save.

If the spell slot is not used up on a failed casting, that is a saving grace. If it is used up, that's adding insult to injury.

Woe to the party on a failed Teleport that was needed to escape to avoid a TPK.

[Kudaku]

Spell DC is 1d20 + spell level + ability score modifier

Natural 1 rolled, spell fizzles

Natural 20 rolled, minor free metamagic effect of DM choice (empowered for a damage spell, extended for a charm spell, spell component not used for one with a significant expense, etc.)

...You want to penalize characters for having a high ability score modifier? Wouldn't that be an advantage?

[Zanos]

...You want to penalize characters for having a high ability score modifier? Wouldn't that be an advantage?
No, he's suggesting that players roll to determine the DC of the spell, rather than it be set. He's replacing the standard 10+SL+Modifier with 1d20+SL+Modifier, where different effects happen on 1's and 20's.

[Kudaku]

No, he's suggesting that players roll to determine the DC of the spell, rather than it be set. He's replacing the standard 10+SL+Modifier with 1d20+SL+Modifier, where different effects happen on 1's and 20's.

No, I get that part but if the DC is d20+ Spell Level + Ability Score Modifier then the DC would still increase more for a wizard with a higher intelligence modifier...?

Compare a 5th level wizard with 14 int and another 5th level wizard with 18 int. Both roll a 12 on their DC check while casting a fireball (3rd level spell). The DC would then be 12 (die) + 3 (fireball) + (2/4 for intelligence modifier). The wizard with 18 INT would have to make a concentration check DC19 while the 14 INT wizard would only have to make a DC17 check.

IE the more intelligent wizard gets no benefit from being more intelligent on concentration checks. I wasn't quite sure if that was intentional or if I misread the formula.

[Zanos]

You're not rolling for any sort of concentration check DC, you're rolling for the saving throw DC for the spell.

[Neknoh]

Far as I understood it, we are not talking about concentration-checks in this but rather deterimining the difficulty check for an enemy to resist the spell.

[Kudaku]

Ahh, then I understand - we were discussing concentration checks so I assumed the formula continued on that tangent. Thanks for correcting me :smallsmile:

[cakellene]

What about just using percentile rolls to determine if spells is cast correctly?

[Tanuki Tales]

You could make it all wild magic (the 2e kind from Tome of Magic, not that lousy 3e attempt).
Spells don't fail outright, but effective CL varies depending on a die roll and you have a 5% chance to invoke a wild surge with random effects, instead of the normal spell effect.

I like this concept here, can you explain it more?

I also have house rules myself (never got to really test sadly), where using magic was a physically and spiritually taxing thing to casters. And if they flung their spells too willy nilly or screwed up bad enough, fates worse than death tend to ensue. Like going magically nuclear or devolving into a monster or garnering the attention of something you generally would prefer to keep treating you as insignificant.

[Neknoh]

The Runelords is with a friend GMing an rp for the first time ever, whereas the spellsystem is for my own homebrew in a world once broken where dead and dying gods now lie and nothing has truly recovered since this happened.

Post-post-magical apocalypse?

[Barstro]

Can I talk you out of making it a pass/fail issue? If each spell gets a percentage die to determine how strong the effect is, you will minimize the chance of colossal failure due to a couple bad rolls.

Nothing quite so annoying in my days of playing Ancient Anguish as when my cleric was down to just a few hit points and the gods failed to hear my prayer for a Heal.

[Maginomicon]

You could use Save Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306961). This leaves buffs and no-save effects alone, but makes pretty-much all offensive magic much weaker.

Personally, I'd recommend having it apply to all saving throws, not just ones vs magic.

[Khosan]

You might also want to consider using the Words of Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/words-of-power) variant system.

To me, it seems a bit more thematically appropriate for the concept. If magic is 'broken', then a lot of casters might resort to using simpler forms and practices. The idea being that more complex magic is liable to get you exploded, banished or in some way screwed mightily. At least until such a time as magic is 'fixed.'

[BWR]

Remember that in Pathfinder Concentration isn't a skill. Instead you use your caster level as your bonus on rolls and there are a few feats & traits to boost your Concentration check as well.

I know. The point still stands. If you have e.g. a DC 15 Conc check to cast a a spell, it won't be long before you're making that roll almost every time. By the time you're 8-9th level you will be making it every time, barring a low casting stat. Unless you want to artificially increase the DC as caster level increases, you are stuck with either magic being almost impossible for low-level casters or it working pretty much always for more experienced casters. If you want the DC to increase by spell level, fine, but that still won't give a flat failure rate like the OP suggested.

[Drachasor]

Random failure is not fun, especially with very limited resources like spells. (And yeah, I don't think random failure is fun for fighters or other non-caster classes).

Variable Caster Level, Wild Magic, or just modifying classes directly are better ways to go, imho.

Another quick option is to disallow full casters and only let people play casters that go up to 6th level spells.

You could also focus more on magical monsters and strange magical effects (such as areas that use planar magic traits) to model things.