A sudden thought regarding Laurin's favor

[Lord]

So now that it's clear that Tarquin has survived the Arc, barring any dropping of bridges, I just thought of something as I was rereading the story.

Tarquin technically speaking owes Laurin one more favor. Given the breakdown Tarquin just suffered, it just occured to me one last bit that would make his defeat perfect.

My prediction for Laurin's favor:

'And now you must marry me.'

I think it would be hilarious, and Laurin, as a powerful mage should be more than capable of coming up with a method of keeping Tarquin from pulling a Starscream on her, and it would be the proverbial cherry on top for the heaps of laser guided karma Tarquin has suffered recently.

What do you think?

[NerdyKris]

I don't see what's hilarious about that. Why would she force him to marry her? What possible indication has she given of wanting that?

[Mutant Sheep]

Why do so many people want this? I don't get it.:smallconfused:

[oppyu]

{{scrubbed}}

[Alignment]

What would she gain from that?

[David Argall]

It has been suggested several times before, and generally gets poor support. Laurin has shown no romantic interest and it seems unlikely to be Tarquin in any case.

[warrl]

In previous discussions of Laurin's favor, that suggestion was - by general but not universal consensus - categorized as insulting to women in general and also as extremely improbable for a large number of reasons.

Although not as improbable as (and no more insulting than) the one that Laurin would want Tarquin to marry her daughter whom she's been trying to keep out of politics, to the point of concealing what she herself actually does for a living.

[busterswd]

Word of the Giant was that Laurin was one of his least sexualized characters ever, and he was surprised at how many people tried to shoehorn her into the slut/desperate stereotypical female role.

I really doubt this is going to happen, and don't really see the humor in it.

[NerdyKris]

Why do so many people want this? I don't get it.:smallconfused:

Because she's female, and therefore her only goal in life must be to snag herself a man. :smallsigh:

[DaggerPen]

If Laurin actually had any interest in Tarquin she would basically just have to waggle her eyebrows suggestively and he would be all over her.

My personal wild speculation is that Laurin wants to do something with the Rift. She routinely tears holes in the fabric of reality with her mind, and look, this one's a doozy. But really, I'll take anything as long as it isn't a $*(@ing marriage/sex thing.

[Cizak]

"Pull a Starscream?" I know very little about Transformers, but I believe this means "betraying her/the group"? Why would he do that? What would he gain from that? It wouldn't help him to force Elan into accepting Tarquin's version of the story and he's too proud of what his group has accomplished.

And yeah, sorry, this or some version of this has (unfortunately) been suggested over and over and over, and the Giant has more or less confirmed that Laurin's favor will have nothing to do with sex or romance.

[The Grim Author]

My thought is that Laurin's favor will be for Tarquin to find a replacement for Malack. That, or for him to go back and get her Thog's signature because she finds him to be a truly riveting gladiator to watch because, let's face it, he's got chops and a way with the crowd.

[NerdyKris]

"Pull a Starscream?" I know very little about Transformers, but I believe this means "betraying her/the group"? Why would he do that? What would he gain from that? It wouldn't help him to force Elan into accepting Tarquin's version of the story and he's too proud of what his group has accomplished.


There's an awful lot of people who have read this latest book and still make the same mistake Tarquin did. Of assigning a role to the character based on what they want, and ignoring all evidence (or lack thereof) to the contrary.

[SavageWombat]

She wants control of the Rift. We decided that in the other thread.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't see why Laurin would ask that for her favor. For one, she must now that Tarquin and marriage do not mix well, and by this I mean he seems to lose wives very quickly. Also, I saw no indication that she felt connected to Tarquin beyond the fact that they were in the same group. Finally, being married to Tarquin would gain her almost nothing.

Oh, and the Giant said that:
Laurin is a female character probably in her late 50's who is covered from head to toe and has never discussed anything sexual at all. I made a deliberate effort to not sexualize her, even, since I realized a while ago that I was subconsciously "sexing up" almost all of the female characters. The fact that she still rates these kind of comments is very disappointing. which shuts down this idea entirely.

[NerdyKris]

She wants control of the Rift. We decided that in the other thread.

I wasn't aware the comic ran on majority forum vote. :smalltongue:

[oppyu]

I wasn't aware the comic ran on majority forum vote. :smalltongue:
Yeah, it turns out the official mascot of the comic is a kitten. It was kind of inevitable once the kitten convinced the puppy to join the kitten's ticket as vice-mascot.

[Cizak]

I wasn't aware the comic ran on majority forum vote. :smalltongue:

We decided that's how we're going to do things from now on.

[Zmeoaice]

Oh, for the love of cute and fluffy puppies. Again? Look, if The Giant decides that Laurin's favour will be to sleep with Tarquin, or marry Tarquin, or have her daughter marry Tarquin, or have her daughter marry Elan, or to sleep with Elan, for her to sleep with Elan, or for her to sleep with Julio Scoundrel, I will ask the administrators to change my name to 'BigStupidMoronFace' and write a 2000-word essay surmising why the Order should embrace not-Durkon as one of their own and not even consider resurrecting Durkon.


Now I want these theories to be true more than ever.

[Gift Jeraff]

She wants Tarquin to marry Shoulderpadude because they're her OTP.

[Jay R]

It has been suggested several times before, and generally gets poor support. Laurin has shown no romantic interest ...

At least not since she was young, and had terrible taste, and was a Julioteer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html).

[FujinAkari]

At least not since she was young, and had terrible taste, and was a Julioteer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html).

Given that a Julioteer is an obvious reference to a Mousecateer, I find it very disturbing that you are trying to equate seven year olds in a fan club with romantic interest :eek:

[oppyu]

If we have a rehash of the incredibly creepy argument where a poster who will remain unnamed tried to equate teenage girls owning posters of cute boys with... icky, icky things, I will find a way to destroy this forum.

[DaggerPen]

If we have a rehash of the incredibly creepy argument where a poster who will remain unnamed tried to equate teenage girls owning posters of cute boys with... icky, icky things, I will find a way to destroy this forum.

You have my sword.

[SavageWombat]

You have my sword.

He should give it back before he gets it all sticky.

[DaggerPen]

He should give it back before he gets it all sticky.

Aw, I was hoping to get up to at least "and my bow" before someone interrupted it.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Don't worry, I'll step up to the plate Dagg- OH MY GOD DaggerPen has been replaced by some monstrous bat thing someone help!!!

But seriously, nice avatar. You have my bat-bow.

[Amphiox]

At least not since she was young, and had terrible taste, and was a Julioteer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0933.html).

Well, some time after that she got herself a daughter, so potentially at least one more time, though romance may not necessarily have needed to be involved.

[DaggerPen]

Don't worry, I'll step up to the plate Dagg- OH MY GOD DaggerPen has been replaced by some monstrous bat thing someone help!!!

But seriously, nice avatar. You have my bat-bow.

Hee! Thank you. I saw someone with a Cass Batgirl icon on a really old post and realized that I really wanted one, so I started messing around with GIMP. It's not as nice as yours, but I hope it's not bad for a second attempt.

[Shale]

I don't have an axe, but you have my Internet yelling.

[137beth]

If Laurin wanted to, why would she need to use a favor on it?

And why would she want to in the first place?

And why do people keep asking this?

[DaggerPen]

Don't worry, I'll step up to the plate Dagg- OH MY GOD DaggerPen has been replaced by some monstrous bat thing someone help!!!

But seriously, nice avatar. You have my bat-bow.


I don't have an axe, but you have my Internet yelling.

It works. :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Given that a Julioteer is an obvious reference to a Mousecateer, I find it very disturbing that you are trying to equate seven year olds in a fan club with romantic interest :eek:
Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.

[oppyu]

If we have a rehash of the incredibly creepy argument where a poster who will remain unnamed tried to equate teenage girls owning posters of cute boys with... icky, icky things, I will find a way to destroy this forum.


Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.
Don't push me on this! I'll do it!

[Bulldog Psion]

I don't have a big enough stock of obscene and offensive gestures to respond to the OP of this thread in the fashion merited. Therefore, I must hand the mike back to oppyu. Who appears to have things under control, anyway.

[Domino Quartz]

Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.

It's as if you don't want anybody to take anything you say seriously.

[Dumbestupidiot]

I seriously didn't connect julioteers to mouseketeers til now

I was thinking more along the lines of him being this world's equivelent to some sort of boy band

Plus there is the added fact of Elan's mom having photos of him in that drawer by her bed that she didn't know Elan knew of (re: comic 389) it's easy to draw the conclusion that his brand is more than mere mouseketeerhood... His brand is hyper-sexualized so it is kinda creepy of me to think of him trying to start a club for preteens a la mouseketeers.

Edit: of course, it could follow the same sort of career arc as boy bands in that they are pure/mousketeerlike at first then become sexualized later like britney spears, miley cyrus etc... Just an added thought

Anyway, that is why i didn't think of it as some sort of mickey mouse operation and that is all i'm going to say about that.

(to prevent you from nuking me Oppyu, quick subject change:)

Why do we think it has to do with the rift and not some favour like getting her daughter some work in Tarquin's territory, for example? I admit, it's not illogical but it is a rather quick thing to think of after a large battle happening before you, which makes me think she had something in mind. Besides, there are all sorts of things you could have a general of Tarquin's stature do other then cede rifttastical land...

[DaggerPen]

Why do we think it has to do with the rift and not some favour like getting her daughter some work in Tarquin's territory, for example? I admit, it's not illogical but it is a rather quick thing to think of after a large battle happening before you, which makes me think she had something in mind. Besides, there are all sorts of things you could have a general of Tarquin's stature do other then cede rifttastical land...

There totally are, but it's hard to think of any that she would want, that could be completed in a day, and that she couldn't get with her own resources. Access to the Rift fits all three categories and has neat potential plot hooks. I don't think most of us are so enamored of the idea we won't go for anything equally convincing, though.

[FujinAkari]

Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.

We can note the obvious logical flaw inherent when a man attempts to tell a woman what any and all women must be thinking in any given situation.

Additionally, we can further note that the author has specifically described Lauren as a character whom he has intentionally avoided sexualizing, making any reading of the text requiring sexualization inherently incorrect.

[Eric Tolle]

And why do people keep asking this?

They read too much fanfic.

[Socksy]

Oh, for the love of cute and fluffy puppies. Again? Look, if The Giant decides that Laurin's favour will be to sleep with Tarquin, or marry Tarquin, or have her daughter marry Tarquin, or have her daughter marry Elan, or to sleep with Elan, for her to sleep with Elan, or for her to sleep with Julio Scoundrel, I will ask the administrators to change my name to 'BigStupidMoronFace' and write a 2000-word essay surmising why the Order should embrace not-Durkon as one of their own and not even consider resurrecting Durkon.

Now I want it to happen, just to see that essay :smallwink:

[Kish]

Oh, for the love of cute and fluffy puppies. Again? Look, if The Giant decides that Laurin's favour will be to sleep with Tarquin, or marry Tarquin, or have her daughter marry Tarquin, or have her daughter marry Elan, or to sleep with Elan, for her to sleep with Elan, or for her to sleep with Julio Scoundrel, I will [...] write a 2000-word essay surmising why the Order should embrace not-Durkon as one of their own and not even consider resurrecting Durkon.
This actually is tempting.

[LuisDantas]

Why do so many people want this? I don't get it.:smallconfused:

My best guess is that this is just one of the latest manifestations of a very common occurrence. There are many things to guess about the future trends of the story, and a lot of people attempting to make those guesses and time to do them.

All too often, there is also not enough information. So the most obvious guesses, even if completely unsupported by evidence, end up being offered and offered again anyway.

Objectively, what we have seen suggests that not only Laurin has no interest in marrying at all, nor in involving her daughter with Tarquin, but also that for anyone to marry Tarquin is a terrible move (and Laurin knows that).

I assume many people simply did not notice the relevant evidence or forgot parts of it. But the desire to offer something to the contributions may be hard to contain until actual quality evidence comes by.

For what it is worth, I sympathise. A lot.

[Cizak]

Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.

You know, when I read this thread yesterday I couldn't help but notice that your respone in this thread was unusually nice and nothing to get annoyed/upset about.

...Good news, everyone. David Argall is still himself, no worries.

[dps]

My thought is that Laurin's favor will be for Tarquin to find a replacement for Malack. That, or for him to go back and get her Thog's signature because she finds him to be a truly riveting gladiator to watch because, let's face it, he's got chops and a way with the crowd.

Why on earth would that be a favor to her, personally? And why have Tarquin do it, when she or any other member of the party probably could do so. Actually, they probably all new to be OK with any new recruit. They're all probably going to want to find a new cleric, but it's probably going to be a bit difficult to find one that they can trust with their plans.

[Griffincat]

I think her favor will be for Tarquin to let her into his mind without fighting so she can wipe part of it. What's the best way for ultimate safety? Make sure that no one in power knows about you. One houseruled mind wipe and Tarquin's pyramid scheme is done.

[Kish]

Tarquin is not a genie who promised a wish. If Laurin's favor is that much bigger than participating (rather half-heartedly) in a fight against some lower-level characters, then he'll refuse.

[Taelas]

Also, since she ran out on him, I really rather doubt he'll be in a favor-granting mood.

[BaronOfHell]

I find it very disturbing that you are trying to equate seven year olds in a fan club with romantic interest :eek:

I had my first crush when I was 4, romantic feelings can occur at a very young age.

[David Argall]

We can note the obvious logical flaw inherent when a man attempts to tell a woman what any and all women must be thinking in any given situation.
This is the fallacy, arguing the person. "Man" [or woman] does not change whether the point is correct or not.



Additionally, we can further note that the author has specifically described Lauren as a character whom he has intentionally avoided sexualizing, making any reading of the text requiring sexualization inherently incorrect.
That she is non-sexual makes it unlikely she is wanting to marry Tarquin as her favor. That she says she had terrible taste as a kid tells us that we can't make any such conclusion about her younger self. The presence of a daughter also gives us a presumption of a somewhat normal interest in sex at that age. So we are justified in deeming her sexual at that age.

[NerdyKris]

Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.

So are George Clooney and Leonardo Decaprio. That doesn't mean I'm thinking about sex when I say I'm a fan of theirs.

[Jay R]

Given that a Julioteer is an obvious reference to a Mousecateer, I find it very disturbing that you are trying to equate seven year olds in a fan club with romantic interest :eek:

First, no, I don't think it's a reference to a Mouseketeer. We had hats with mouse ears, not posters. (Yes, I'm that old. The original Mouseketeers were on in my lifetime.)

Later on, when Annette was in beach movies, there were posters of her in a bikini. Only teens had the posters. Certainly we had romantic thoughts about the posters on our walls, but there was nothing beyond a young teen's musings. My sister did the same with her Beatles posters. Yes, it's a romantic interest, and no, it isn't disturbing or abnormal.

I find it disturbing that you think a teen's, or child's, innocent crush is a problem of some sort.

Edit: OK, you've implied some moral problem about me, and I've returned the favor. Can we drop the sneers and discuss the issues again?

[factotum]

Also, since she ran out on him, I really rather doubt he'll be in a favor-granting mood.

He already granted the favour in exchange for Laurin helping him chase down the Order. The fact the chase didn't have the outcome he wanted is irrelevant, and since he needs to keep Laurin and Miron on-side to keep his "three empire" scam going, he's going to keep his end of the bargain.

[FujinAkari]

This is the fallacy, arguing the person. "Man" [or woman] does not change whether the point is correct or not.
That depends on the point. In this case, your point is:

Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
So, in this case, I am the resident expert at being a woman and am quite capable of refuting your claim that Any [Every] woman who joins a fanclub [must be] thinking about sex.


First, no, I don't think it's a reference to a Mouseketeer. We had hats with mouse ears, not posters. (Yes, I'm that old. The original Mouseketeers were on in my lifetime.)
... why would you expect a Julioteer to have mouse ears? O.o

More seriously, what other '-teer' fanclubs could this possibly be a reference too?


Edit: OK, you've implied some moral problem about me, and I've returned the favor. Can we drop the sneers and discuss the issues again?

I made no such moral implication, and I'm sorry if you felt that one was intended. I actually read your statement as someone who wasn't thinking of the general age range of the fanclub as described and was poking fun at you for it, but clearly that wasn't properly conveyed :(

[Boogastreehouse]

It looks better with some space


My personal wild speculation is that Laurin wants to do something with the Rift. She routinely tears holes in the fabric of reality with her mind, and look, this one's a doozy.

Every once in a while, someone on this forum actually has a really interesting idea. When Laurin and Tarquin's party shows up later, perhaps they'll be armed with heretofore unknown knowledge of the nature of the Rift/Snarl, thanks to Laurin's experimentations.

(Like the avatar, by the way)


It looks better with some space

[DaggerPen]

It looks better with some space



Every once in a while, someone on this forum actually has a really interesting idea. When Laurin and Tarquin's party shows up later, perhaps they'll be armed with heretofore unknown knowledge of the nature of the Rift/Snarl, thanks to Laurin's experimentations.

(Like the avatar, by the way)


It looks better with some space

If we see Tarquin again, I do really think it'll be in this manner. If we do wrap up Tarquin here, then Laurin's favor will probably be something to further that - I doubt she's going to cross Tarquin here, but I could definitely see her trying to make Tarquin stop rocking the gravy boat by chasing after Elan in some way.

(Thank you!)

[SavageWombat]

You know, when the forum keeps talking about a possibility Rich sometimes jokes about it in the strip.

I wonder if he'd throw in a joke about Laurin thinking it's the stupidest idea ever?

[Vinyadan]

So now that it's clear that Tarquin has survived the Arc, barring any dropping of bridges, I just thought of something as I was rereading the story.

Tarquin technically speaking owes Laurin one more favor. Given the breakdown Tarquin just suffered, it just occured to me one last bit that would make his defeat perfect.

My prediction for Laurin's favor:

'And now you must marry me.'

I think it would be hilarious, and Laurin, as a powerful mage should be more than capable of coming up with a method of keeping Tarquin from pulling a Starscream on her, and it would be the proverbial cherry on top for the heaps of laser guided karma Tarquin has suffered recently.

What do you think?

While I don't find the idea in itself insulting, I think that it doesn't make any sense. The Giant declared that Laurin was made to show a not sexed-up female character, and effectively nothing we've seen makes us think that she has any romantic interest going on, especially on Tarquin.

So yea, totally out of character. No way.

[Taelas]

He already granted the favour in exchange for Laurin helping him chase down the Order. The fact the chase didn't have the outcome he wanted is irrelevant, and since he needs to keep Laurin and Miron on-side to keep his "three empire" scam going, he's going to keep his end of the bargain.

No, he agreed to owe her a favor in exchange for her help. She then said that she had one in mind already and that it could be fulfilled by the end of the day. It hasn't been granted yet, and I very much doubt that Tarquin will let her flight pass and just give her what she wants.

[Rift_Wolf]

My own thoughts on what the favour will be?
Something relating to Team Tarquins backstory. Look at the evidence; when Nale killed Malack, he said he's been planning it since he was nine. When Tarquin called on Miron's favour, it was something he'd held onto for twelve years; assuming that Nale's 21 (not sure if it's ever been pinned down exactly), the favour and Nale's plot would roughly coincide. Then there's Laurin's slightly inexplicable elf-hate. These seem to be pointing towards a prequel story explaining more about Tarquin's team/Nale's team.
So it might be 'leave my daughters city alone'; I think of Laurin as a more motherly figure than anything else. She wants the best for her children, and it'd make a nice counterpoint to show how Tarquin treated his family.

[jere7my]

Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.

AND MY AXE!

[FujinAkari]

No, he agreed to owe her a favor in exchange for her help. She then said that she had one in mind already and that it could be fulfilled by the end of the day. It hasn't been granted yet, and I very much doubt that Tarquin will let her flight pass and just give her what she wants.

Tarquin is Lawful. He asked for her help and she helped. This is pretty open and shut, he owes her a favour and he'll be delivering.

[David Argall]

{{scrubbed}}

[oppyu]

*destroys forum*

There, happy now? Now nobody can speculate about the adolescent sexuality of young girls.

[Tamari]

{{scrubbed}}


Can I just point out that after Julio's story in Dragon Tales there is a letter from his five year old (boy) fan? With Julio's reply strongly implying he is used to having child fans?

...there. Have a good time defending your ludicrous claim(s) now.

[RNGgod]

Can I just point out that after Julio's story in Dragon Tales there is a letter from his five year old (boy) fan? With Julio's reply strongly implying he is used to having child fans?

...there. Have a good time defending your ludicrous claim(s) now.


Ah, but you see, that was a male young fan. Obviously all female fans would be obsessed with sex, because that's how women operate, am I right?


Obligatory sarcasm marker.

[Tamari]

Ah, but you see, that was a male young fan. Obviously all female fans would be obsessed with sex, because that's how women operate, am I right?


Obligatory sarcasm marker.

Ah, now I see!

Well, there goes my theory that when Laurin said "I had a terrible taste when I was young" she might just meant "I can't believe I was ever so stupid/naive that I was rooting for a hero." Because that is not about sex and so can't apply to her :smallfrown:

[crayzz]

Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.

That a given person is known for his sex appeal does not mean that he is only known for his sex appeal.

Your reasoning simply does not follow.

[orrion]

Nope. 2+2=4 does not depend on who says it.


"On the internet, nobody knows you are a dog" So here in particular, a claim of being a resident expert is invalid [unless proved by other factors, which is routinely not worth the effort]. We know that some posters are not of the claimed sex [or of most anything else] and so saying you are of a given sex [or of much else] is just a claim.
And while we boys are famously clueless, the idea he is always wrong [and she right] is clearly wrong.

What you're missing is that both a man or a woman would be wrong when they say what 100% of men or women are thinking on a given topic. Your entire argument on that point is a non sequitur.

You are wrong when you state that every female who joins a fan club is thinking about sex. Plain and simple.



As has been noted in other threads, the absolute, such as "any" or "always" routinely means "almost X" rather than "absolutely X". We discussed this in more detail under alignments, where we found that "always evil" usually means "evil more than 95% of the time".

Your stance is that you weren't actually saying what you typed because it's been noted elsewhere that what you typed doesn't necessarily mean what you typed?

First thing wrong with that is that you shouldn't be assuming everyone has read those other threads. Second thing wrong with that is that none of your arguments have allowed for that interpretation. You have been arguing in absolutes. If you want to backtrack now then go ahead, but don't try to feed me some BS that contradicts your posts in the meantime. Own up to your mistake rather than try to justify it or argue that you didn't make one.



{{scrubbed}}

Heck, maybe one of the wives joined the club after he rescued her from Tarquin. Or women joined because they liked that he rescued women from marriages they didn't want to be in. There's nothing to suggest it's even a women-only fan club.

[jere7my]

That a given person is known for his sex appeal does not mean that he is only known for his sex appeal.

For instance, I am also known for my humility.

[dps]

While I don't find the idea in itself insulting, I think that it doesn't make any sense. The Giant declared that Laurin was made to show a not sexed-up female character, and effectively nothing we've seen makes us think that she has any romantic interest going on, especially on Tarquin.

So yea, totally out of character. No way.

While I don't see any reason to think that Laurin would want to marry Tarquin, I would point out that in some cases, sex and romance have absolutely nothing to do with the reason to enter into a marriage.

[FlawedParadigm]

{{scrubbed}}

This may be the single most creepy/logically flawed thing I have seen, ever, anywhere, in any media. Wow. I'm going to go soak my eyes in lemon juice for a bit to lessen the stinging some.

[Lettuce]

Julio explicitly states he is known for many things. In addition to making his romantic prowess known, he introduces himself as a world famous sky-pirate and action hero (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html), and he is one of the top 100 swordsmen of the century (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html). And as others have mentioned, he's saved helpless women from being married against their will. There are many reasons one could find to admire him.

The fact that he does indeed have male fans (like the aforementioned little boy in Tamari's post) directly suggests that in-comic, there are many people that find some of his non-sexual traits admirable as well. It's entirely possible that when she was younger, Laurin looked up to one or more of those qualities instead of/in addition to merely finding him attractive.

--

To directly respond to some of David Argall's points, I'd like to... fourth? fifth? the motion that all women don't necessarily join a fanclub--even the fanclub of a hearthrob--because they are sexually inclined towards that person. I can say this both from personal experience and from common sense: there are many reasons to look up to someone and be a fan of theirs. Romance or sex doesn't have to enter the equation.

Additionally: just because someone is generally considered to be handsome doesn't mean that every person agrees with that perception. Different individuals have different tastes, after all. Given that, it's entirely likely that many women don't find Julio attractive in the first place!

To respond to Mr. Argall's "Hindu Atheist" parable... I'd just like to point out that I'm pretty sure that people also have more than the two modes of 'thinking about sex' and 'thinking about not thinking about sex'. I guess I can't be sure of other people's thoughts (alas, I'm not a psion like Laurin!) so it's possible that I'm an abnormality, but I actually fairly often have thoughts that are entirely unrelated to sex at all.

--

Also, is there any evidence that directly points to Hannah being Laurin's biological offspring? For all we know, she could be adopted.

As far as I'm aware, we don't have any in-comic evidence of Laurin's sexual orientation or preferences at all--we just have broad-stroke circumstantial assumptions based on the fact that she has a daughter. Given the Giant's commentary on the forums about how he's tried to make Laurin as asexual as possible, I actually think that Hannah being adopted is a not-entirely-unlikely scenario.

[DaggerPen]

Julio explicitly states he is known for many things. In addition to making his romantic prowess known, he introduces himself as a world famous sky-pirate and action hero (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html), and he is one of the top 100 swordsmen of the century (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html). And as others have mentioned, he's saved helpless women from being married against their will. There are many reasons one could find to admire him.

The fact that he does indeed have male fans (like the aforementioned little boy in Tamari's post) directly suggests that in-comic, there are many people that find some of his non-sexual traits admirable as well. It's entirely possible that when she was younger, Laurin looked up to one or more of those qualities instead of/in addition to merely finding him attractive.

--

To directly respond to some of David Argall's points, I'd like to... fourth? fifth? the motion that all women don't necessarily join a fanclub--even the fanclub of a hearthrob--because they are sexually inclined towards that person. I can say this both from personal experience and from common sense: there are many reasons to look up to someone and be a fan of theirs. Romance or sex doesn't have to enter the equation.

Additionally: just because someone is generally considered to be handsome doesn't mean that every person agrees with that perception. Different individuals have different tastes, after all. Given that, it's entirely likely that many women don't find Julio attractive in the first place!

To respond to Mr. Argall's "Hindu Atheist" parable... I'd just like to point out that I'm pretty sure that people also have more than the two modes of 'thinking about sex' and 'thinking about not thinking about sex'. I guess I can't be sure of other people's thoughts (alas, I'm not a psion like Laurin!) so it's possible that I'm an abnormality, but I actually fairly often have thoughts that are entirely unrelated to sex at all.

--

Also, is there any evidence that directly points to Hannah being Laurin's biological offspring? For all we know, she could be adopted.

As far as I'm aware, we don't have any in-comic evidence of Laurin's sexual orientation or preferences at all--we just have broad-stroke circumstantial assumptions based on the fact that she has a daughter. Given the Giant's commentary on the forums about how he's tried to make Laurin as asexual as possible, I actually think that Hannah being adopted is a not-entirely-unlikely scenario.

And even if she is sexual, lesbianism is a thing.

[RNGgod]

{{scrubbed}}

[orrion]

I actually fairly often have thoughts that are entirely unrelated to sex at all.

Cake is delicious.



Also, is there any evidence that directly points to Hannah being Laurin's biological offspring? For all we know, she could be adopted.

No, there isn't any evidence. She's never been seen on-panel, for one, so there aren't any similarities to note.

[DaggerPen]

{{scrubbed}}

Jokes about Irene in Sherlock? I award you, person of unknown gender, one internet, to be delivered to the address of your choice.

[137beth]

*destroys forum*

There, happy now? Now nobody can speculate about the adolescent sexuality of young girls.
Well, now people will just do it on other forums. There's only one way to stop all forums from imploding with sexual sillyness...just a little spell, called

Forumicide!

[oppyu]

Well, now people will just do it on other forums. There's only one way to stop all forums from imploding with sexual sillyness...just a little spell, called

Forumicide!
Oh Gods, then forums would spring up everywhere purely devoted to debating the moral justification of Forumicide.

[marq]

But the real question is: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Forikroder]

So now that it's clear that Tarquin has survived the Arc, barring any dropping of bridges, I just thought of something as I was rereading the story.

Tarquin technically speaking owes Laurin one more favor. Given the breakdown Tarquin just suffered, it just occured to me one last bit that would make his defeat perfect.

My prediction for Laurin's favor:

'And now you must marry me.'

I think it would be hilarious, and Laurin, as a powerful mage should be more than capable of coming up with a method of keeping Tarquin from pulling a Starscream on her, and it would be the proverbial cherry on top for the heaps of laser guided karma Tarquin has suffered recently.

What do you think?

theyve spent the last few years trying to keep relationship between the 6 of them as low key as possible, both so that noone realises there working together and to not make it wierd that they switch partners periodically

and you think that Laurin is going to have him marry her? AND that it will be resolved by the end of the day?

[factotum]

To directly respond to some of David Argall's points, I'd like to... fourth? fifth? the motion that all women don't necessarily join a fanclub--even the fanclub of a hearthrob--because they are sexually inclined towards that person. I can say this both from personal experience and from common sense: there are many reasons to look up to someone and be a fan of theirs. Romance or sex doesn't have to enter the equation.


Ah, but don't you see? Since you're disagreeing with how David says all females must think, clearly you're not a female...you're just a man pretending to be one on the Internet. Or at least, that seems to be how his logic is going at the moment.

Me, I'm definitely a man, and I don't presume to speak for 100% of my own gender, much less the opposite one... :smalltongue:

[Drew's Alias]

I'm convinced she wants out of Tarquin's little shell game. It's unlikely she's able to just walk away and keep her life, but calling in a favor may well allow her to do so. While her favor would not be sufficient to allow her to keep her power and gain true autonomy, I'm betting it's enough to ensure she and her daughter can walk away without the to be constantly looking over her shoulder.

That, or she wants help invading the elven lands -- she doesn't seem to like them too much.

[Vinyadan]

While I don't see any reason to think that Laurin would want to marry Tarquin, I would point out that in some cases, sex and romance have absolutely nothing to do with the reason to enter into a marriage.

I agree on both things. The marriage still remains out of character (for what we've seen so far).


But the real question is: Do Balrogs have wings?

Do dwarven women have beards?

[Adeptus]

{{scrubbed}}

[Storm_Of_Snow]

To the OP:

:xykon: Ok ok! Enough! Take it to the fanfiction sites!

The idea about the rift is probably about right - either that, or it's something to do with their shell game: maybe Laurin wants Tarquin to cede some land over to her, or use his troops to attack somewhere so she can defend them and then take them over.

As for the fan clubs, let's just say that if the media company that owns the person (and yes, given the types of contracts involved, ownership is pretty much the right terminology), gets people paying their membership fees who're not the intended target demographic, then they don't really care.




And even if she is sexual, lesbianism is a thing.
Aha! I've got it!

David Argall is actually Stephen Moffat!
More like Russell T Davis...

[RNGgod]

More like Russell T Davis...


Not to delve too far into this madness, but, uh, no. Davies, whatever his other faults, actually sought to create developed characters with various sexualities.


For Moffat, all gay men exist for a joke, and all lesbian women exist to realize that they're actually bisexual as soon as the male lead enters the room.

[BaronOfHell]

the motion that all women don't necessarily join a fanclub--even the fanclub of a hearthrob--because they are sexually inclined towards that person.

Yes, that makes sense, I had wondered why no one had joined my fan club yet.


Me, I'm definitely a man, and I don't presume to speak for 100% of my own gender, much less the opposite one... :smalltongue:

Then I'll speak for 100% of all genders when I declare myself as the sexiest halfling alive.

[crayzz]

For instance, I am also known for my humility.

Ahaha, may I sig this?

[FujinAkari]

That, or she wants help invading the elven lands -- she doesn't seem to like them too much.

Reasonably sure a join invasion of a neighboring country doesn't qualify as something that can be resolved by the end of the day :)

[Lettuce]

No, there isn't any evidence. She's never been seen on-panel, for one, so there aren't any similarities to note.

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure if I might have been missing something. Sounds like we don't have enough evidence to make any judgement calls about Laurin's past or present sexuality, then.


Ah, but don't you see? Since you're disagreeing with how David says all females must think, clearly you're not a female...you're just a man pretending to be one on the Internet. Or at least, that seems to be how his logic is going at the moment.

Me, I'm definitely a man, and I don't presume to speak for 100% of my own gender, much less the opposite one... :smalltongue:

If it'd help, I could always take a selfie while holding up a piece of paper that says 'Hi! I'm AmberWynne and I'm a woman!' :smallamused: Baring that, you guys will just have to believe me.

Anyway, let's not be mean to David himself just because we disagree with some of the arguments he's presented so far. He might just be playing devil's advocate, and even if he's not, it's never good form to attack the debater rather than the topics in the debate.

[jere7my]

Ahaha, may I sig this?

I humbly grant permission! ;)

[SaintRidley]

Reasonably sure a join invasion of a neighboring country doesn't qualify as something that can be resolved by the end of the day :)

Sure it is.

Laurin: Okay, favor time.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Okay.
Laurin: Relay a general order to the Empire of Blood's army to begin marching toward the Elven lands. We're mounting an invasion.
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin.png: Fine. Kilkil, relay that order.

Nobody's saying the invasion has to be complete by day's end, but a favor asking him to order one is very, very doable.

[Dragonus45]

Why do so many people want this? I don't get it.:smallconfused:

It's a shipping things. Honestly I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often on around here.


Word of the Giant was that Laurin was one of his least sexualized characters ever, and he was surprised at how many people tried to shoehorn her into the slut/desperate stereotypical female role.

I really doubt this is going to happen, and don't really see the humor in it.

How is it insulting to women to ship her with Tarquin? I don't see any of those things being represented fans shipping ANYONE let alone in this case.

[oppyu]

How is it insulting to women to ship her with Tarquin? I don't see any of those things being represented fans shipping ANYONE let alone in this case.
"Hey, what if Laurin wanted to sleep with Malack?"
"Er... there's nothing to support that, but you believe that if you want."
"Huh, she seems to care about Miron. What if she wants to sleep with him?"
"That's a little flimsy..."
"Hey, you know Laurin's favour? I bet that it's her wanting to have sex with Tarquin."
"Say what now?"
"Or, she wants to marry Tarquin. Maybe that's it."
"Suuuuuuure, she wants to marry Captain Bluebeard. That's totally rational."
"Oh, I just had an idea. She doesn't want to marry Tarquin... she wants her daughter to marry Tarquin!"
"I think I see a pattern with this speculation."
"No, wait, she wants her daughter to marry Elan!"
"No. That is directly contradicted by the source material."
"Oh, so Laurin wants to sleep with Elan!"
"Almost certainly not."
"Wait, I've got it. Laurin wants Tarquin to leave Julio Scoundrel in her custody. For... you know :smallwink:"
"What is wrong with you?"
"Her having a poster of Julio Scoundrel when she was a minor is a clear sign that young Laurin had sexual feelings for Julio. I'm going to get into a protracted argument defending this position."
"I... what? Why would you... what?"
"Oh, Julio and Elan left... hey, I bet Laurin wants to bang Tarquin."
"I hate you."

[Dragonus45]

Yea thats called shipping, and honestly i dont get why people keep wanting to turn this one instance of it into a massive social issue. I remember seeing several psotss about Malack and Tarquin being gay lovers, i know several people who ship Belkar and V, I once saw a link to a Hino and Roy slash fic and I know at least a few people ship Hinjo and paladin who's name i just forgot. No one seems to get worked up then.




"Her having a poster of Julio Scoundrel when she was a minor is a clear sign that young Laurin had sexual feelings for Julio. I'm going to get into a protracted argument defending this position."
"I... what? Why would you... what?"

This one isn't as unreasonable as people seem to be making it out to be. She admits she had bad taste in buying the poster and it would fit the theme of him being The Most Interesting Man In The World. Plus i remember The Giant said he wanted her to be nonsexualized not totally asexual. Now yea she could have just bought the poster for other reasons but i wont totally discount she had it for the same reason I have a poster of Johny Depp I wish I could find space to hang up.

[marq]

"Hey, what if Laurin wanted to sleep with Malack?"
"Er... there's nothing to support that, but you believe that if you want."
"Huh, she seems to care about Miron. What if she wants to sleep with him?"
"That's a little flimsy..."
"Hey, you know Laurin's favour? I bet that it's her wanting to have sex with Tarquin."
"Say what now?"
"Or, she wants to marry Tarquin. Maybe that's it."
"Suuuuuuure, she wants to marry Captain Bluebeard. That's totally rational."
"Oh, I just had an idea. She doesn't want to marry Tarquin... she wants her daughter to marry Tarquin!"
"I think I see a pattern with this speculation."
"No, wait, she wants her daughter to marry Elan!"
"No. That is directly contradicted by the source material."
"Oh, so Laurin wants to sleep with Elan!"
"Almost certainly not."
"Wait, I've got it. Laurin wants Tarquin to leave Julio Scoundrel in her custody. For... you know :smallwink:"
"What is wrong with you?"
"Her having a poster of Julio Scoundrel when she was a minor is a clear sign that young Laurin had sexual feelings for Julio. I'm going to get into a protracted argument defending this position."
"I... what? Why would you... what?"
"Oh, Julio and Elan left... hey, I bet Laurin wants to bang Tarquin."
"I hate you."

What was the point of this?

[jere7my]

Yea thats called shipping, and honestly i dont get why people keep wanting to turn this one instance of it into a massive social issue. I remember seeing several psotss about Malack and Tarquin being gay lovers, i know several people who ship Belkar and V, I once saw a link to a Hino and Roy slash fic and I know at least a few people ship Hinjo and paladin who's name i just forgot. No one seems to get worked up then.

The issue is that it is constant and unrelenting with every female character, however deliberately desexualized, whereas it is occasional and isolated with male characters. It creates the impression that female characters, in the minds if some readers, can only be defined by their relationships, while male characters can be defined by other things (as well as, sometimes, by their relationships).

[super dark33]

What was the point of this?

Like an FAQ, but with theories instead.

[Dragonus45]

The issue is that it is constant and unrelenting with every female character, however deliberately desexualized, whereas it is occasional and isolated with male characters. It creates the impression that female characters, in the minds if some readers, can only be defined by their relationships, while male characters can be defined by other things (as well as, sometimes, by their relationships).

Do you mean shipping in general or shipping in the comic?
In general I would argue that that the ratio of shipping as a whole leans a little towards gay slash fiction, but at the least if runs even on the gender of the sipped persons, and I could make the argument that if you find it insulting Supernatural Wincest shippers are just as much of an issue after the show even pointed out how wrong it was and they kept going. Also the sexualization of a character is irrelevant to shipping, just as many other things tend to get ignored when people start spouting off about who should date. Examples include but are not limited too, sexuality, existing relationships, the canon feelings of the characters towards each other, authors wishes, the series the character is actually in, and the time periods the characters lived in.

[jere7my]

Do you mean shipping in general or shipping in the comic?
In general I would argue that that the ratio of shipping as a whole leans a little towards gay slash fiction, but at the least if runs even on the gender of the sipped persons, and I could make the argument that if you find it insulting Supernatural Wincest shippers are just as much of an issue after the show even pointed out how wrong it was and they kept going. Also the sexualization of a character is irrelevant to shipping, just as many other things tend to get ignored when people start spouting off about who should date. Examples include but are not limited too, sexuality, existing relationships, the canon feelings of the characters towards each other, authors wishes, the series the character is actually in, and the time periods the characters lived in.

I am familiar with shipping and slash fiction, thank you. I'm specifically referring to observed behavior on these fora.

[oppyu]

Yea thats called shipping, and honestly i dont get why people keep wanting to turn this one instance of it into a massive social issue. I remember seeing several psotss about Malack and Tarquin being gay lovers, i know several people who ship Belkar and V, I once saw a link to a Hino and Roy slash fic and I know at least a few people ship Hinjo and paladin who's name i just forgot. No one seems to get worked up then.

This one isn't as unreasonable as people seem to be making it out to be. She admits she had bad taste in buying the poster and it would fit the theme of him being The Most Interesting Man In The World. Plus i remember The Giant said he wanted her to be nonsexualized not totally asexual. Now yea she could have just bought the poster for other reasons but i wont totally discount she had it for the same reason I have a poster of Johny Depp I wish I could find space to hang up.
The sheer volume of Laurin-shipping is what made it a thing. A character intentionally designed to be as asexual as possible was being shipped with anything and everything that had male features and a tenuous connection to her, in an effort that was not reciprocated on any of the other male characters. It's a series where male protagonists overcome their male antagonists while females serve as love interests and subordinates of varying import, and yet we weren't seeing threads devoted to who would be Mrs. Tarquin no. 11 or 12 if Amun-Zora fell through. Add in some real life parallels to how women are treated in a patriarchal society (ie: as love and/or sex objects) and boom, you have a social issue.

Incidentally, any internet argument where people are discussing the sexuality of a minor squicks me out, especially for the innocuous crime of owning a poster. All people knew about Laurin was that as a young girl she owned a poster of Julio, and it immediately snowballed into 'Young Laurin totally wanted to hit that. Sexually. As a young girl. I have no self-awareness whatever regarding the fact that I'm discussing the sexuality of a young girl."


What was the point of this?

To show that the old Laurin's Favour thread was really annoying.

[marq]

To show that the old Laurin's Favour thread was really annoying.

Oh. I find that annoyance really annoying.

If you can't discuss that stuff rationally, or if the discussion has petered out, maybe there's no point in discussing it?

I don't know though. I'm just a guy wondering if Balrogs have wings or not.

[Dragonus45]

The sheer volume of Laurin-shipping is what made it a thing. A character intentionally designed to be as asexual as possible was being shipped with anything and everything that had male features and a tenuous connection to her, in an effort that was not reciprocated on any of the other male characters. It's a series where male protagonists overcome their male antagonists while females serve as love interests and subordinates of varying import, and yet we weren't seeing threads devoted to who would be Mrs. Tarquin no. 11 or 12 if Amun-Zora fell through. Add in some real life parallels to how women are treated in a patriarchal society (ie: as love and/or sex objects) and boom, you have a social issue.


Like I said, I was surprised that we didn't see more other kinds of shipping around here, and I would chalk that up the higher standard of discussion around here, but I fail to see how it manages to hit the level of serious problem people need to be lynched for bringing up. Also like i said shipping knows no bounds when it comes to the character in question so her sexualization is moot point. I would add those "parallels to patriarchal society" but I would have to think we lived in a patriarchal society.

[jere7my]

Like I said, I was surprised that we didn't see more other kinds of shipping around here, and I would chalk that up the higher standard of discussion around here, but I fail to see how it manages to hit the level of serious problem people need to be lynched for bringing up. Also like i said shipping knows no bounds when it comes to the character in question so her sexualization is moot point.

There is a difference between saying "Hey, these two characters would be really hot together; I'm gonna write / fantasize about that" and "What role is this character going to have in the canonical story?" There's no problem with the first—people can ship whomever they like, based on their personal predilections, and I'll never have a problem with it. Fantasy is fantasy. But when people begin constantly predicting a romance-based story role for all the female characters and only occassionally for only a few of the male characters, then that says something about how female characters are perceived.

Shorter me: the problem arises when more than a few people keep saying, "Hey, we've got a female character here; when's she going to find a nice man so she can fulfill her story purpose?" when almost nobody says that for the male characters.

P.S. "Lynched" is unnecessary hyperbole.

[marq]

But when people begin constantly predicting a romance-based story role for all the female characters and only occassionally for only a few of the male characters, then that says something about how female characters are perceived.

Question: Are the "people" you refer to the same person every time?

Is the poster "CeliaFan291" doing that for every female, for example?

Or did "CeliaFan" post for one character, and then "ForumPoster" post for another, and "RandomForumite" post for a third, and your brain is just lumping them all into "people."

I can't say I've seen a pattern with anyone posting romance-based story roles for every female. I think it's unfair to assume that someone who thinks that way for one character thinks that way for all, unless there's some evidence of this.

[Dragonus45]

There is a difference between saying "Hey, these two characters would be really hot together; I'm gonna write / fantasize about that" and "What role is this character going to have in the canonical story?" There's no problem with the first—people can ship whomever they like, based on their personal predilections, and I'll never have a problem with it. Fantasy is fantasy. But when people begin constantly predicting a romance-based story role for all the female characters and only occassionally for only a few of the male characters, then that says something about how female characters are perceived.

Shorter me: the problem arises when more than a few people keep saying, "Hey, we've got a female character here; when's she going to find a nice man so she can fulfill her story purpose?" when almost nobody says that for the male characters.

P.S. "Lynched" is unnecessary hyperbole.

Not really, it just says that the local fanbase is more interested in shipping those characters, also I'm not seeing more people shipping female OOTS characters than male ones. I see one character who seems to have caught a lot of attention, but big world shaking issue worth shaming the people who bring it up that is not. Also predicting a romance based story role for people IS shipping. It's just fairly limited since shipping continues long after a series ends and everyone winds up where they end up. Honestly I don't see the reason why people are so intent on shipping her since she seems kinda boring for it, shes fairly recently introduced and kind of a bit villain along scarf guy whose name I just forgot. Also when has anyone said that the only way she can have a story purpose is to marry T. Honestly this seems like people are being selectively offended, its only a problem when its a girl being shipped because its saying her only role is to be girlfriend and its a huge problem but when men get shipped no one seems to even bother to remember that it happened.

P.S. When people start talking about dismantling the forum in a fit of rage over someone daring to bring a subject up I'll use the term I feel is appropriate.

[jere7my]

Question: Are the "people" you refer to the same person every time?

If one person says Björn Borg is a thieving scoundrel, and somebody else says Martina Navratilova is a squirrel-kicker, and somebody else says Serena Williams eats puppydogs, it is not a stretch to wonder if there's a cultural bias against tennis players going on.

Cultural bias doesn't (generally) make people feel the same way about every member of a group; it applies a pressure that, on average, influences how people feel about that group. It's like a city that slopes down to the west; on average, and all things being equal, people who wander are going to end up in the west end. Trying to track the biases of one individual will only tell you how that person feels.

You'll note that I haven't called anyone by name and said, "Oo, sexist!" Identifying a cultural bias doesn't mean anyone has to be a bad person.

[Dragonus45]

If one person says Björn Borg is a thieving scoundrel, and somebody else says Martina Navratilova is a squirrel-kicker, and somebody else says Serena Williams eats puppydogs, it is not a stretch to wonder if there's a cultural bias against tennis players going on.

Cultural bias doesn't (generally) make people feel the same way about every member of a group; it applies a pressure that, on average, influences how people feel about that group. It's like a city that slopes down to the west; on average, and all things being equal, people who wander are going to end up in the west end. Trying to track the biases of one individual will only tell you how that person feels.

You'll note that I haven't called anyone by name and said, "Oo, sexist!" Identifying a cultural bias doesn't mean anyone has to be a bad person.

Mainly I disagree that there is a cultural bias shown by people shipping one character excessively. Also I do thank you for not calling people out and shaming them over the issue, its a welcome change in this kind of discussion.

[marq]

If one person says Björn Borg is a thieving scoundrel, and somebody else says Martina Navratilova is a squirrel-kicker, and somebody else says Serena Williams eats puppydogs, it is not a stretch to wonder if there's a cultural bias against tennis players going on.

Cultural bias doesn't (generally) make people feel the same way about every member of a group; it applies a pressure that, on average, influences how people feel about that group. It's like a city that slopes down to the west; on average, and all things being equal, people who wander are going to end up in the west end. Trying to track the biases of one individual will only tell you how that person feels.

You'll note that I haven't called anyone by name and said, "Oo, sexist!" Identifying a cultural bias doesn't mean anyone has to be a bad person.

LIST!

1) Considering there are posters from all corners of the world on this forum, the cultural bias would encompass a lot of cultures.

2) I'll still think it unfair to assume that because three people said things about three different characters, that the fourth person to say something about a fourth character should be assumed to have the same motivations as those first three (if they even had the same motivations to begin with).

3) Considering this is the internet, it's often safe to assume that many people say things just to get a reaction. Especially with speculation as meaningless as the topic of this thread (still wondering if Balrogs have wings).

4) I didn't say you called anyone sexist.

5) Why did you think I said that you called anyone sexist?

6) How many people posting about ships did it take for you to form the hypothesis that they hold a cultural bias? Was it only three? Four? Or is the idea that there's a cultural bias exist as one of your priors and you read their posts with that in mind? Think about it.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, regardless, all of the repeated "Hey, maybe Laurin wants to shtup Tarquin and use up her favor that way!" became as irritating as the questions about Mankrik's wife in the early Barrens. :smallwink:

P.S. I think some Balrogs had wings, and some didn't.

[crayzz]

Oh. I find that annoyance really annoying.

If you can't discuss that stuff rationally, or if the discussion has petered out, maybe there's no point in discussing it?

You seemed to have erroneously equated being annoyed with being irrational.

You might want to look into that.


When people start talking about dismantling the forum in a fit of rage over someone daring to bring a subject up I'll use the term I feel is appropriate.

I'd imagine you'd use whatever term you feel is most appropriate is most circumstances. That does not change the fact there is little to compare between pretending to dismantle a forum and ganging up to murder someone.

[Dragonus45]

Well, regardless, all of the repeated "Hey, maybe Laurin wants to shtup Tarquin and use up her favor that way!" became as irritating as the questions about Mankrik's wife in the early Barrens. :smallwink:

P.S. I think some Balrogs had wings, and some didn't.

True I can see it getting very irritating, but I think part of that is that incessant shipping seems rarer around here.

P.S. I thought that the wings mentioned were just Tolkien being wordy and descriptive and that they were added to the one in the movie to make it look larger and more intimidating?



I'd imagine you'd use whatever term you feel is most appropriate is most circumstances. That does not change the fact there is little to compare between pretending to dismantle a forum and ganging up to murder someone.

Hyperbole is Hyperbole, and you can metaphorically or socially lynch someone.

[jere7my]

6) How many people posting about ships did it take for you to form the hypothesis that they hold a cultural bias? Was it only three? Four?

It was eight hundred and six.

[marq]

You seemed to have erroneously equated being annoyed with being irrational.

You might want to look into that.


Forgive me, I didn't see the rational argument in oppyu's wall of text I had quoted (the one that ended with "I hate you."). He didn't say there was one, either, just that he was expressing annoyance.

If you'd like to point out where the rational argument was in that post, I'd be happy to look at it.


It was eight hundred and six.

I look forward to your citations so that I can understand your point of view.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Balrogs having wings kind of contradicts the idea that two of them practically fell to their death.

[DaggerPen]

It was eight hundred and six.

1. Thank you for your posts in this thread. Seriously.

2. Since this argument seems to have started up again, I regretfully note that in the thread that originally started it, not only was Laurin's having been a Julioteer equated with her being wildly sexually attracted to him, it was equated with wanting to sneak into his room and sexually assault him.

Really, it probably says something when I find myself really pulling for a character to be revealed as a lesbian, not because I want more queer representation in my media, but because it might maybe shut people the heck up about constantly pairing Laurin and/or her daughter with any male character possible.

[Dragonus45]

1. Thank you for your posts in this thread. Seriously.

2. Since this argument seems to have started up again, I regretfully note that in the thread that originally started it, not only was Laurin's having been a Julioteer equated with her being wildly sexually attracted to him, it was equated with wanting to sneak into his room and sexually assault him.

Really, it probably says something when I find myself really pulling for a character to be revealed as a lesbian, not because I want more queer representation in my media, but because it might maybe shut people the heck up about constantly pairing Laurin and/or her daughter with any male character possible.

2. Didn't see that thread, but I still maintain that its not as bad as people seem to want to make it out to be.

Because canon sexuality has ever stopped a shipper, shipper are the kind of people who would be writting in fanfiction that she is really bisexual or talking about how T could still buy himself a sex change belt to make the relationship work.

Also since not to jump on the bandwagon but i like your avatar, she is outright my favorite member of the entire bat family, next to Terry Mc Guinness.

[Cizak]

"Hey, what if Laurin wanted to sleep with Malack?"
"Er... there's nothing to support that, but you believe that if you want."
"Huh, she seems to care about Miron. What if she wants to sleep with him?"
"That's a little flimsy..."
"Hey, you know Laurin's favour? I bet that it's her wanting to have sex with Tarquin."
"Say what now?"
"Or, she wants to marry Tarquin. Maybe that's it."
"Suuuuuuure, she wants to marry Captain Bluebeard. That's totally rational."
"Oh, I just had an idea. She doesn't want to marry Tarquin... she wants her daughter to marry Tarquin!"
"I think I see a pattern with this speculation."
"No, wait, she wants her daughter to marry Elan!"
"No. That is directly contradicted by the source material."
"Oh, so Laurin wants to sleep with Elan!"
"Almost certainly not."
"Wait, I've got it. Laurin wants Tarquin to leave Julio Scoundrel in her custody. For... you know :smallwink:"
"What is wrong with you?"
"Her having a poster of Julio Scoundrel when she was a minor is a clear sign that young Laurin had sexual feelings for Julio. I'm going to get into a protracted argument defending this position."
"I... what? Why would you... what?"
"Oh, Julio and Elan left... hey, I bet Laurin wants to bang Tarquin."
"I hate you."

I love you.


Really, it probably says something when I find myself really pulling for a character to be revealed as a lesbian, not because I want more queer representation in my media, but because it might maybe shut people the heck up about constantly pairing Laurin and/or her daughter with any male character possible.

And then comes: "Laurin's a lesbian? Well since she hangs out with four men and was a fan of one in her youth, clearly she's not that confident in herself! She can be turned bisexual."

[busterswd]

How is it insulting to women to ship her with Tarquin? I don't see any of those things being represented fans shipping ANYONE let alone in this case.

It's not "insulting" to women to want Tarquin and Laurin to get together. (It would be bat**** insane on Laurin's part to do so, but hey, shipping doesn't always work on rationality.)

Forum posters have shown, however, that a chunk of the readership expects female characters to fulfill a sexual stereotype, even when said female character has shown absolutely no inclination towards those stereotypes. The thread that elicited that response from the giant was "Hey, now that Laurin's flying, if Haley had taken that flying hussy feat, she'd get another attack bonus!" Except Laurin has never shown any evidence of a sexual drive (minus her daughter) let alone promiscuity. But because she was a woman, she was a slut in the thread starter's mind.

Similar to how storywise, people assume the first thing Laurin would rationally do is try to sex with whatever male is convenient to her. These threads aren't a matter of wishful shipping, they're a matter of people's gut reaction that a conservative, chaste female character's first priority is finding a man to have a relationship with, to the point where she'd burn an extraordinarily rare resource toward doing so.

Imagine reading 3 dozen threads on how the Oracle needs to hire female kobold hookers. It's out of character enough to the point where 1 or 2 threads may be amusing, but when about 30% of the predictions for the Oracle's future involve it, it says something about the people clamoring for it.

[Shining Wrath]

If we ever see Laurin's favor as something other than a way to keep the plot moving (I still think it may factor into her coming to get Tarquin today rather than tomorrow, or something) I think you'll find that favors in a LE group don't go as far as "enter into a binding contract for so long as we both shall live".

I expect it to be something relating to money or power within the 3-empire set up.

[jere7my]

2. Didn't see that thread, but I still maintain that its not as bad as people seem to want to make it out to be.

Because canon sexuality has ever stopped a shipper, shipper are the kind of people who would be writting in fanfiction that she is really bisexual or talking about how T could still buy himself a sex change belt to make the relationship work.

Sure, but nobody would expect that to actually happen in the story. Nobody expects Kirk and Spock to really make out. (Sherlock and Moriarty, on the other hand....)

But I'll tell you why it matters: There are women reading this forum, including some young women, and we shouldn't send them the message that the only thing that could fulfill their own role in life would be finding a man. Female characters who want things other than weddings (or nookie) are important, and there aren't enough of them.

I remember in high school my (female) drama teacher asking the class to say one sentence about what makes them interesting. The boys said things like "I play guitar" or "I was published in the newspaper." The girls, all but one of them, said "I'm dating [boy's name]." My teacher pointed that out to us, and made the girls think of something that wasn't based on their relationship to someone else.

[Shining Wrath]

Balrogs having wings kind of contradicts the idea that two of them practically fell to their death.

They didn't fall to their deaths. They fell and were crushed beneath tons of descending ostriches and penguins.

[marq]

I remember in high school my (female) drama teacher asking the class to say one sentence about what makes them interesting. The boys said things like "I play guitar" or "I was published in the newspaper." The girls, all but one of them, said "I'm dating [boy's name]." My teacher pointed that out to us, and made the girls think of something that wasn't based on their relationship to someone else.

Sounds like something was wrong with your school (where did you go, if I can ask?).

Unless you believe your anecdotal evidence is how a large number of schools would be (and I'd be interested in WHY you believe that), it's kind of irrelevant too.

ETA: I just noticed that you're 41 also, acto your profile. That might have something to do with it.


Imagine reading 3 dozen threads on how the Oracle needs to hire female kobold hookers. It's out of character enough to the point where 1 or 2 threads may be amusing, but when about 30% of the predictions for the Oracle's future involve it, it says something about the people clamoring for it.

Maybe I'm jaded, but what it says to me is "This forum has a lot of trolls."

I guess you could take everything at face value, though. I won't.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sure. Why not?

[Dragonus45]

It's not "insulting" to women to want Tarquin and Laurin to get together. (It would be bat**** insane on Laurin's part to do so, but hey, shipping doesn't always work on rationality.)

Forum posters have shown, however, that a chunk of the readership expects female characters to fulfill a sexual stereotype, even when said female character has shown absolutely no inclination towards those stereotypes. The thread that elicited that response from the giant was "Hey, now that Laurin's flying, if Haley had taken that flying hussy feat, she'd get another attack bonus!" Except Laurin has never shown any evidence of a sexual drive (minus her daughter) let alone promiscuity. But because she was a woman, she was a slut in the thread starter's mind.

Similar to how storywise, people assume the first thing Laurin would rationally do is try to sex with whatever male is convenient to her. These threads aren't a matter of wishful shipping, they're a matter of people's gut reaction that a conservative, chaste female character's first priority is finding a man to have a relationship with, to the point where she'd burn an extraordinarily rare resource toward doing so.

Imagine reading 3 dozen threads on how the Oracle needs to hire female kobold hookers. It's out of character enough to the point where 1 or 2 threads may be amusing, but when about 30% of the predictions for the Oracle's future involve it, it says something about the people clamoring for it.

I remember that thread and I remember that just about the only person who agreed with the joke was the one who came up with it. Also your misrepresenting the post, the person who made it made the joke asking if Laruen would qualify as a favored enemy. That is different from declaring that if Haley had the favored enemy she would get the bonus. The former is asking of Lauren is "hussy", not declaring her to be one and claiming otherwise that the thread starter considered her a slut is impugning malice where there is none and fairly insulting to the poster. Also where is this chunk of readership that has clearly believes and agrees women have to fulfill a certain role. Really I feel that people are putting a lot of thoughts into other peoples mouths when claiming that their intentions are have all these deep seated women hating reasons for shipping her with T. There is lots of shipping in the world and people suddenly focusing on a single character is in no way indicative of some terrible issue. As to your Oracles analogy I can see a lot of people seeing one or two threads, picking up on an idea no matter how out of character or strange it is and it taking off to the point of insanity. Look at all the Belkar isn't evil threads.


Sure, but nobody would expect that to actually happen in the story. Nobody expects Kirk and Spock to really make out. (Sherlock and Moriarty, on the other hand....)

But I'll tell you why it matters: There are women reading this forum, including some young women, and we shouldn't send them the message that the only thing that could fulfill their own role in life would be finding a man. Female characters who want things other than weddings (or nookie) are important, and there aren't enough of them.

I remember in high school my (female) drama teacher asking the class to say one sentence about what makes them interesting. The boys said things like "I play guitar" or "I was published in the newspaper." The girls, all but one of them, said "I'm dating [boy's name]." My teacher pointed that out to us, and made the girls think of something that wasn't based on their relationship to someone else.

Well i somhow doubt that a few people talking about how they think Lauren should marry T are going to send such a message. I think your somehow going far far afield of reality here.

[busterswd]

I remember that thread and I remember that just about the only person who agreed with the joke was the one who came up with it. Also your misrepresenting the post, the person who made it made the joke asking if Laruen would qualify as a favored enemy. That is different from declaring that if Haley had the favored enemy she would get the bonus. The former is asking of Lauren is "hussy", not declaring her to be one and claiming otherwise that the thread starter considered her a slut is impugning malice where there is none and fairly insulting to the poster. Also where is this chunk of readership that has clearly believes and agrees women have to fulfill a certain role. Really I feel that people are putting a lot of thoughts into other peoples mouths when claiming that their intentions are have all these deep seated women hating reasons for shipping her with T. There is lots of shipping in the world and people suddenly focusing on a single character is in no way indicative of some terrible issue. As to your Oracles analogy I can see a lot of people seeing one or two threads, picking up on an idea no matter how out of character or strange it is and it taking off to the point of insanity. Look at all the Belkar isn't evil threads.

In regards to the flying hussy thread, you're kind of debating semantics at this point. The implication was that Laurin qualified for the category, whether or not there was a positive declaration. It was a joke that fell flat, but that brings me to something I have seen multiple responses on, which is what oppyu's list comes from:

It's not just 1 or 2 people saying "hey, chaste lady wants a man! hur hur." I'd estimate dozens of posters' first guess as to what Laurin's favor could be involved her forcing Tarquin to set her up with a man, and there's been absolutely nothing to suggest that something like that would be remotely a concern for her. In the context of those threads, it's not a matter of wishful thinking or shipping. It's their logical conclusion for the storyline.

[Dragonus45]

In regards to the flying hussy thread, you're kind of debating semantics at this point. The implication was that Laurin qualified for the category, whether or not there was a positive declaration. It was a joke that fell flat, but that brings me to something I have seen multiple responses on, which is what oppyu's list comes from:

It's not just 1 or 2 people saying "hey, chaste lady wants a man! hur hur." I'd estimate dozens of posters' first guess as to what Laurin's favor could be involved her forcing Tarquin to set her up with a man, and there's been absolutely nothing to suggest that something like that would be remotely a concern for her. In the context of those threads, it's not a matter of wishful thinking or shipping. It's their logical conclusion for the storyline.

First i would say that in this case the semantics are important, and second I still fail to see the difference between "wishful thinking" shippers and "logical conclusion of the storyline" shippers just look at the Potter and Avatar fandoms for a good example of that one, or the Wincest ship which has many many many more people backing it, and everyone who ships it does so with the total expectation that it will happen. Or really any fandom where people start complaining there ship didn't sail.

As to that second point, you would "estimate" that, which could easily be causing a case of confirmation bias.

[jere7my]

Sounds like something was wrong with your school (where did you go, if I can ask?).

Unless you believe your anecdotal evidence is how a large number of schools would be (and I'd be interested in WHY you believe that), it's kind of irrelevant too.

ETA: I just noticed that you're 41 also, acto your profile. That might have something to do with it.

My high school was fine, and while progress has no doubt been made in the last 24 years we still have a long way to go. I know plenty of young women in 2014 who are troubled by the relative dearth of independent female characters (i.e., ones who aren't defined by romantic or sexual connections). Literally thousands of books, articles, and papers have been written about this particular cultural bias; if you're actually interested, it should be trivial to research it, and it's not my job to do it for you. Going any farther here is outside the scope of this forum.

[Vinyadan]

I'd estimate dozens of posters' first guess as to what Laurin's favor could be involved her forcing Tarquin to set her up with a man

What about, "Tarquin! Set yourself up with a man!"? That would give a whole new angle to everything and unbelievable chances of character discovery!

[marq]

My high school was fine

Doesn't sound like it, if that was your experience. But that's just my opinion.


I know plenty of young women in 2014.

Ok...



Literally thousands of book, articles, and papers have been written about this particular cultural bias; if you're actually interested, it should be trivial to research it, and it's not my job to do it for you.

I'm probably more aware of it than you. Regardless, I think you need to reevaluate what you think you know, and why you think you know it.

[Drew's Alias]

Reasonably sure a join invasion of a neighboring country doesn't qualify as something that can be resolved by the end of the day :) She wouldn't need Tarquin, just his troops and his promise not to interfere. Agreeing to commit resources would take little more than the stroke of a pen on Tarquin's part, but it is something only Tarquin would be able to do. While Tarquin would need to do very little, it would prove to be quite a big favor.

[Bulldog Psion]

What about, "Tarquin! Set yourself up with a man!"? That would give a whole new angle to everything and unbelievable chances of character discovery!

"Tarquin, Miron's been asking you to marry him for years. As my favor -- just say yes, okay?"

(Of course, I'm not applying heteronormative standards to assume that Tarquin would object simply on the basis of the fact that he's been seen with numerous women. But for the sake of the joke here, it's best to assume that it's an arrangement that Tarquin didn't want ...

... or didn't think he wanted, anyway. :smallcool: )

[jere7my]

Doesn't sound like it, if that was your experience. But that's just my opinion.

Well, "fine" in the sense that there was nothing unusual about it in this regard; it was, and remains, an extremely common self-perception issue for many young women that they define themselves in terms of others. But my example was intended to be an illustrative anecdote into my personal reasons for caring, not a convincing data point. There are plenty of people who've done that work already, and better than I could.


I'm probably more aware of it than you. Regardless, I think you need to reevaluate what you think you know, and why you think you know it.

Fair enough; I am not an expert, though I have done a certain amount of reseach into the issue, and certainly people I care about have a vested interest in it. Anyway, I, of course, think the same about you, so there we are.

[Socksy]

It's not just 1 or 2 people saying "hey, chaste lady wants a man! hur hur." I'd estimate dozens of posters' first guess as to what Laurin's favor could be involved her forcing Tarquin to set her up with a man, and there's been absolutely nothing to suggest that something like that would be remotely a concern for her. In the context of those threads, it's not a matter of wishful thinking or shipping. It's their logical conclusion for the storyline.

I personally think that if she wants a man, it's so her daughter can have a father...

Her favour might be getting a druid to kill and resurrect her, so she can return to youth and live longer. (Bonus points if the random race selection turns her into an elf and she freaks out.)

[Storm_Of_Snow]

There is one good thing about the subject of this thread - it stops everyone going on that Belkar's going to die in the next strip, or even the next panel. :smallfrown:

[Yendor]

There is one good thing about the subject of this thread - it stops everyone going on that Belkar's going to die in the next strip, or even the next panel. :smallfrown:

Laurin's favour is that she wants to kill Belkar. :smalltongue:

[Lettuce]

Laurin's favour is that she wants to kill Belkar. :smalltongue:

:smallconfused: Actually, I think Laurin's favor is that she wants her daughter, who is adopted and is secretly also Redcloak's niece, to kill Belkar.

[SaintRidley]

:smallconfused: Actually, I think Laurin's favor is that she wants her daughter, who is adopted and is secretly also Redcloak's niece, to kill Belkar.

Almost, but not quite there.

She wants her daughter, who is adopted and secretly also Redcloak's niece, to marry Tarquin in a ceremony officiated by Durkon, so that she can kill Belkar in the Dwarven lands.

[Loreweaver15]

I'm convinced she wants out of Tarquin's little shell game. It's unlikely she's able to just walk away and keep her life, but calling in a favor may well allow her to do so. While her favor would not be sufficient to allow her to keep her power and gain true autonomy, I'm betting it's enough to ensure she and her daughter can walk away without the to be constantly looking over her shoulder.

That, or she wants help invading the elven lands -- she doesn't seem to like them too much.

This would also be a perfect capper to Tarquin's fate of ignominy. His whole vaunted scheme unravels without Elan even needing to come back.

The issue is that it is constant and unrelenting with every female character, however deliberately desexualized, whereas it is occasional and isolated with male characters. It creates the impression that female characters, in the minds if some readers, can only be defined by their relationships, while male characters can be defined by other things (as well as, sometimes, by their relationships).

Hohohohoh my goodness I've just realized that this is the first fandom I've been in that ships heterosexual plus lesbian ships anywhere near as much as homosexual male ships.


Balrogs having wings kind of contradicts the idea that two of them practically fell to their death.

Well, they were engaged in a protracted bout of magical face-punching at the time :P

[DiamondHooHaMan]

Almost, but not quite there.

She wants her daughter, who is adopted and secretly also Redcloak's niece, to marry Tarquin in a ceremony officiated by Durkon, so that she can kill Belkar in the Dwarven lands.

And then jump into the rift while casting true res on Nale and Z.

[DaggerPen]

Almost, but not quite there.

She wants her daughter, who is adopted and secretly also Redcloak's niece, to marry Tarquin in a ceremony officiated by Durkon, so that she can kill Belkar in the Dwarven lands.


And then jump into the rift while casting true res on Nale and Z.

Guys, no. You've got it all wrong. Laurin wants Hannah to marry Tarquin in a ceremony officiated by Durkon so that she can research a spell that will let Belkar survive on the world through the Rift without needing to breathe so that he can bring back Durkon's soul to settle a bet on whether Haley's part dragon or part celestial.

[zimmerwald1915]

Guys, no. You've got it all wrong. Laurin wants Hannah to marry Tarquin in a ceremony officiated by Durkon so that she can research a spell that will let Belkar survive on the world through the Rift without needing to breathe so that he can bring back Durkon's soul to settle a bet on whether Haley's part dragon or part celestial.
Are you saying she has no position on the relative merits of Banjo and Giggles?

[Dragonus45]

I figure her favor is going to involve forcing T to curb back his insane overuse of story conventions. It feels like the perfect end to his role in the plot.

[zimmerwald1915]

I figure her favor is going to involve forcing T to curb back his insane overuse of story conventions.
Does this have some concrete meaning? Or can Tarquin just say he'll do it without actually changing his behavior in any way?

[DiamondHooHaMan]

Does this have some concrete meaning? Or can Tarquin just say he'll do it without actually changing his behavior in any way?

it's Tarquin, he wouldn't change in any way even if it does have a concrete meaning.

[Vinyadan]

Balrogs having wings kind of contradicts the idea that two of them practically fell to their death.

And the fact that Gothmog was killed by being elf-wrestled into a pool allows us to think that they don't have fins or gills, either. Also, Ecthelion was a Prussian Elf, with a nice spearhead at the top of his helm.

[Dragonus45]

it's Tarquin, he wouldn't change in any way even if it does have a concrete meaning.

Honestly I have this feeling like she wants to curb his influence in some way since I get the feeling she doesn't like the effect T has on the group dynamic with his story crap. If he fails to follow through with a favor it weakens his position and gives her more power within the group.

[Socksy]

It's gonna go down something like this.

Strip x
T: So, what was that favour you wanted?
Laurin: ... Kiss me.
T: :smalleek:

Strip x+1
[T standing there in shock as Laurin waits. Miron appears.]
Miron: ... Wait, Tarkie actually bought it? Dammit, I owe you ten gold.
[ Laurin reveals the actual favour, to T's badly hidden disappointment.]

[Metahuman1]

While I doubt she's really gonna do this, I think it would be hysterical if she teased him with the notion.

L "So, about that favor, thinking of having you marry me."

T "... ... what? WHAT?!!!!!!"

L "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

T "Nooot funny."

L "No seriously though, I think I'm just gonna sit on and it and remind you of it daily for like fifteen years just to rub in making us get our butts kicked over your personal ego-trip."

T "NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!"

[martianmister]

Text describes Scoundrel as famous ladies man, sexiest man alive, etc, etc, ... Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.
We can debate whether the writer just forgot some Mousecateers were quite young, or didn't care. To soothe your mind, you should probably just assume all Juiloteers were teenagers.

It's also possible that there is different parts of Scoundrel fandom.

[Dragonus45]

It's also possible that there is different parts of Scoundrel fandom.

Yea, but it's also not unreasonable to assume that a person who would be interested in men would certainly be putting that poster up for fan service.

[David Argall]

It's also possible that
Which is pretty much saying it is heavy odds against.

[hamishspence]

It's also possible that there is different parts of Scoundrel fandom.

Indeed. People who like to imagine themselves as "an action hero" - might join "action hero fan clubs" of all kinds.

[jere7my]

Yea, but it's also not unreasonable to assume that a person who would be interested in men would certainly be putting that poster up for fan service.

Why make assumptions without evidence? There are loads of reasons to put up a poster that don't involve sexual attraction: peer pressure, wanting to display a gift from someone you care about, it came free with membership in the fan club so why not, a desire to display your allegiance to a social group, appreciation for the work of the photographer, appreciation for Julio's punning talents, etc., etc.

[Socksy]

this has nothing to do with her favour

[Dragonus45]

Why make assumptions without evidence? There are loads of reasons to put up a poster that don't involve sexual attraction: peer pressure, wanting to display a gift from someone you care about, it came free with membership in the fan club so why not, a desire to display your allegiance to a social group, appreciation for the work of the photographer, appreciation for Julio's punning talents, etc., etc.

Honestly i would say that there is a preponderance evidence that a person joining a club of a character who has been repeatedly referenced as an in universe sex symbol, who later claims they had bad taste when they were younger would have had some kind of a crush on him. Im not saying it's true or untrue but its also not nearly as unlikely and unreasonable as an "assumption with no evidence"

[BaronOfHell]

Which is pretty much saying it is heavy odds against.

It's possible that the event of saying an event is possible is equivalent of saying there are heavy odds against it.

[jere7my]

Honestly i would say that there is a preponderance evidence that a person joining a club of a character who has been repeatedly referenced as an in universe sex symbol, who later claims they had bad taste when they were younger would have had some kind of a crush on him. Im not saying it's true or untrue but its also not nearly as unlikely and unreasonable as an "assumption with no evidence"

Certainly it's plausible, but not proven. Trying to use the poster to prove anything about adult-Laurin's sexual life is tenuous at best—particularly when we already have better evidence of at least one sexual act in her past.

[Socksy]

Certainly it's plausible, but not proven. Trying to use the poster to prove anything about adult-Laurin's sexual life is tenuous at best—particularly when we already have better evidence of at least one sexual act in her past.

Hannah is CLEARLY Redcloak's secret niece, jeez dude, get with the program :smallwink:

[SmartAlec]

Which is pretty much saying it is heavy odds against.

He's also a world-class swordsman, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html) if you recall.

[orrion]

Which is pretty much saying it is heavy odds against.

No, that's just you rejecting possibilities for your own interpretation. Your interpretation is equally as likely or unlikely as the rest of them.

[SaintRidley]

No, that's just you rejecting possibilities for your own interpretation. Your interpretation is equally as likely or unlikely as the rest of them.

Argall's interpretations of this comic have a marked and common tendency to be not merely less likely than competing interpretations, but flat out wrong. Like, on their face, pi = 3, Columbus-discovered-America level wrong.

[orrion]

Argall's interpretations of this comic have a marked and common tendency to be not merely less likely than competing interpretations, but flat out wrong. Like, on their face, pi = 3, Columbus-discovered-America level wrong.

There is some possibility that there would be members in Julio's club who idolize him sexually, so I'm being charitable.

Is it likely that most or all of them do so? No, there's no evidence for that.

[martianmister]

Which is pretty much saying it is heavy odds against.

Scoundrel's known fans:

Elan's mother
Right-Eye's son
MitD
Laurin Shattersmith

Seems a pretty diverse group to me.

[RNGgod]

Is it likely that most or all of them do so? No, there's no evidence for that.



Precisely.

Moreover, since we have Word of Giant that Laurin is deliberately unsexualized so as to avoid some prior tendencies, to sexualize her in this way (either her status as a Julioteer or her unnamed favor) would be patently ridiculous even if it weren't unashamedly misogynist.

[martianmister]

Moreover, since we have Word of Giant that Laurin is deliberately unsexualized so as to avoid some prior tendencies, to sexualize her in this way (either her status as a Julioteer or her unnamed favor) would be patently ridiculous even if it weren't unashamedly misogynist.

To be fair, there is a big difference between unsexualized and asexualized. Laurin in her 'teens, and her 50s are not same character.

[RNGgod]

To be fair, there is a big difference between unsexualized and asexualized. Laurin in her 'teens, and her 50s are not same character.

This is true. And I would accept it if not for the fact that the same people championing Laurin's lust for Julio are those who insist she wants to have sex with/marry Tarquin.

[BaronOfHell]

All while the reality of the situation is that Laurin wants Tarquin to marry Scoundrel.

[Socksy]

All while the reality of the situation is that Laurin wants Tarquin to marry Scoundrel.

She wants them to make a beautiful yaoi together! Who knew she was a shipper? :smallwink:

That would be PROOF she wanted to shtup Julio!
That was a joke, before anyone complains.

[137beth]

Well, since Laurin is really Spiky, presumably she'd want some control over his soul in the afterlife. Although since he is already LE that might be a waste.

Hey, at least the Laurin=Spiky theory is kind-of-but-not-really supported by Spiky disappearing whenever Laurin came on panel. It's no crazier than the OP's idea...

[Socksy]

Well, since Laurin is really Spiky, presumably she'd want some control over his soul in the afterlife. Although since he is already LE that might be a waste.

Hey, at least the Laurin=Spiky theory is kind-of-but-not-really supported by Spiky disappearing whenever Laurin came on panel. It's no crazier than the OP's idea...

There's a spell, someone-or-other's summoning hook, which lets the wizard answer a summon type spell, and Roy's dad already got summoned by a spell, so who says the Nomad Laurin couldn't have a homebrewed Psionic version? :D

[davidbofinger]

It would be bat**** insane on Laurin's part

One of the strongest reasons, which doesn't seem to get much mention, is that Tarquin would be an appallingly bad step-father for Hannah. Laurin wants Hannah kept out of the game, whereas Tarquin killed his own child partly because he refused to cooperate in Tarquin's schemes.


Imagine reading 3 dozen threads on how the Oracle needs to hire female kobold hookers.

That's almost an interesting idea. What with the long-running Belkar-Oracle hostility, and Belkar's interest in hookers. But I can't quite see how to make it all come together.

[davidbofinger]

write a 2000-word essay surmising why the Order should embrace not-Durkon as one of their own and not even consider resurrecting Durkon

I think you should have to do the essay in Dwarvish dialect.

[Dragonus45]

Precisely.

Moreover, since we have Word of Giant that Laurin is deliberately unsexualized so as to avoid some prior tendencies, to sexualize her in this way (either her status as a Julioteer or her unnamed favor) would be patently ridiculous even if it weren't unashamedly misogynist.

I'm sorry but would mind providing to me some reason that this is misogynistic before tossing around a clearly accusatory and offensive term like that. How doe shipping a character or assuming that she at some point in her life had a crush on another character equal "unashamed misogyny"


This is true. And I would accept it if not for the fact that the same people championing Laurin's lust for Julio are those who insist she wants to have sex with/marry Tarquin.

Not really, I think there is no way someone smart enough to make it to epic or near epic levels would let a world class monster like T into their family lives. I just think that the people are sailing that ship are receiving a massive amount I undue hate and accusations of sexism and misogyny.

[factotum]

How doe shipping a character or assuming that she at some point in her life had a crush on another character equal "unashamed misogyny"


Those things probably don't. Assuming that every single female who's ever joined a fan club for somebody famous did it because they wanted to have sex with them, now *that's* misogynistic.

[Kish]

I think you should have to do the essay in Dwarvish dialect.
And in white-on-black text!

[Fish]

Which is pretty much saying it is heavy odds against.
So when David Argall says "100% of X are ABC," what he really means is "most of X, or possibly only a plurality of X, but in any case, I'm right." When somebody else says "it's possible that X is ABC," it means "none, anywhere, under any circumstance, so David is still right."

In other words, only non-flying Balrogs have wings. The flying ones don't.

[rewinn]

While it can be annoying for female characters having romance defined as their primary interest, at least more so than for male characters, this seems to be a common tendency in a lot of literature, and embedded in fantasy from the start.

For example, one of the earliest great fantasy writers was C.L.Moore whose Jirel of Jhorey was one of the first strong female hack-and-slashers (possibly predating Red Sonja although I'm not sure).
I just started working through a collection of the Jirel stories and noticed:

* "Black God's Kiss". Jirel kills a guy, and then figures out she loves him. Ooops.
* "Black God's Shadow". The dead guy complains about it, so she feels obliged to help out.
* "The Dark Land". A god wants Jirel for a girlfriend. She kills him (or at least his avatar [which is naturally male]).

Then there's Tolkiens Eowyn ("Aragorn rejected me so I seek death in battle") and Luthien/Arwyn ("Mortal men are so hot we'll choose to die of old age rather than go without"). Or the Aenedi's Dido ("Aeneus sailed away? Well I'll just jump on a funeral pyre!")

I'm sure we can all find many such examples. There's a pattern here not seen with male fantasy heroes such as Conan. Perhaps it not the writers so much as the audience.

One suspects Laurin, as a top-tier near-epic, can have as many romantic partners, of whatever age, gender and species, that she wishes. In contrast, the "favor" has to be something she can't easily get on her own. It's gotta be something pretty special, IMO.

[Socksy]

...Wait, that whatever-species thing made me think... what if Hannah is Redcloak's niece but isn't adopted, and Laurin is secretly on Team Dark One, and that's why team Tarquin is after the rifts (if they're after them at all, I... think they are?)?

[Dumbestupidiot]

I want to go a completely different route and instead of trying to figure out why marking Laurin's favour and making it sexual is sexist, i'm gonna try figure out other responses as to why people connect Tarquin and Laurin together.

1. Laurin is a blank slate. She is easy to project on with limited known backstory and a large possibility of things she could be want desire etc. This leaves pretty much anything we want to interpret able for us to interpret. This is a big plus sign for any shipper and one of the reasons Bella in Twilight is designed so blandly so the reader could fill in the blanks with whatever they wanted.

2. Laurin is interesting at the same time. She is one of a few people in this world to know psyonics that we know of, she is comrades with Tarquin and his group taking over empires for themselves (brief comment, power is a big aphrodisiac) and she has satellites going around her head

3. She has a definite interest in getting Tarquin in her debt, with the added bonus of having something in mind even though these debts are not to be trifled with and can go for decades.

4. She wants something that will take a night to complete, and that she probably has had in mind for awhile because (as noticed previously) such favors are not to be underestimated so she probably put quite a bit of thought into what she will ask him to do.


Now it's more interesting to try and figure out why people aren't quite as shippy with, say, Miron (without getting into that whole sexist thing mentioned previously) and the main answer to that is, he isn't as interesting. He doesn't have the psyonics, he is paying back a favor to Tarquin as opposed to getting him under his thumb, and later on he doesn't last very long in the battle against the order of the stick making him less memorable.

I'd also like to mention that we are having a very large lack of new opportunities to ship people so it's hard not to jump on a new interesting character that has a pre-existing unknown connection with a significant character.

(And it would be fun if Laurin's favour ultimately involves Tarquin eliminating a certain former political prisoner with former red hair due to him having dirt on her or something.)

[The Kind Knido]

I don't think it's fair to speculate Laurin's favour when there really haven't been any clues at all...but sure.

Laurin's favour is to get Tarquin to make her waffles. There.

[Shale]

Laurin's favor is for Tarquin to stop making her waffles.

[Socksy]

I don't think it's fair to speculate Laurin's favour when there really haven't been any clues at all...but sure.

Laurin's favour is to get Tarquin to make her waffles. There.

Waffles, you say?
Perhaps she's going to make him listen to the 10-hour version of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsneanS5qiw)...

[orrion]

I want to go a completely different route and instead of trying to figure out why marking Laurin's favour and making it sexual is sexist, i'm gonna try figure out other responses as to why people connect Tarquin and Laurin together.

1. Laurin is a blank slate. She is easy to project on with limited known backstory and a large possibility of things she could be want desire etc. This leaves pretty much anything we want to interpret able for us to interpret. This is a big plus sign for any shipper and one of the reasons Bella in Twilight is designed so blandly so the reader could fill in the blanks with whatever they wanted.

2. Laurin is interesting at the same time. She is one of a few people in this world to know psyonics that we know of, she is comrades with Tarquin and his group taking over empires for themselves (brief comment, power is a big aphrodisiac) and she has satellites going around her head

3. She has a definite interest in getting Tarquin in her debt, with the added bonus of having something in mind even though these debts are not to be trifled with and can go for decades.

4. She wants something that will take a night to complete, and that she probably has had in mind for awhile because (as noticed previously) such favors are not to be underestimated so she probably put quite a bit of thought into what she will ask him to do.


Now it's more interesting to try and figure out why people aren't quite as shippy with, say, Miron (without getting into that whole sexist thing mentioned previously) and the main answer to that is, he isn't as interesting. He doesn't have the psyonics, he is paying back a favor to Tarquin as opposed to getting him under his thumb, and later on he doesn't last very long in the battle against the order of the stick making him less memorable.

I'd also like to mention that we are having a very large lack of new opportunities to ship people so it's hard not to jump on a new interesting character that has a pre-existing unknown connection with a significant character.

(And it would be fun if Laurin's favour ultimately involves Tarquin eliminating a certain former political prisoner with former red hair due to him having dirt on her or something.)

1) I'm sorry, what? Bella is a blank slate? Even if I bought that, at least Bella has repeated interactions with both Edward and Jacob that suggest more than friendship. With Tarquin and Laurin, there are ZERO such interactions. Moreover, she isn't a blank slate. We're just not privy to her family situation. There's many other characters where that same thing is true.

2) I don't see what any of that has to do with anything.

3) No she doesn't. She saw an opportunity and seized it. She didn't have an interest in getting Tarquin into debt until Tarquin showed what he was willing to do to get what he wanted. You need a pattern to prove that she's had an interest in it, and all you have is an isolated event with much better explanations. Not to mention that she would have tried to get Tarquin into debt before creating that gigantic Wormhole that got the army to the crater. Also, any of them could have numerous things in mind for favors at any point.

4) Or she has any number of projects going on and she had a thought along the lines of "Hey, Tarquin could help me complete and/or progress that project right after we're done here!"

Far as Laurin asking Tarquin to get rid of Ian.. She was kind of standing right there when Tarquin explained about framing him for treason and showed Haley the Wanted! poster. Even if she wanted to get rid of Ian, she'd have to be an idiot to use her favor to ask Tarquin to kill someone who isn't in his dungeon anymore and who already has a bounty for death on his head.

[Socksy]

Totally read that as "showed Haley the The Wanted poster" :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

So when David Argall says "100% of X are ABC," what he really means is "most of X, or possibly only a plurality of X, but in any case, I'm right." When somebody else says "it's possible that X is ABC," it means "none, anywhere, under any circumstance, so David is still right."

As said, the absolute, as in "perfect", "always", "never", ... is so rare in practice that it is extended to the near absolute in order to be used at all. When one tries to claim error on the grounds that 99% is not 100%, that is routinely a quibble that should be ignored.
"Possible" was being used here as "50%" [or as some other reasonable chance that gives it equal standing with other ideas]. But when one says "... well, it is possible..." one is routinely expressing extreme doubt that it is reality. Even more positive meanings are pretty negative. "It's possible, isn't it?" merely means "non-zero", not any significant number. One normally uses such language when facing a doubting audience.
One does not use possible about high percentages. "Likely", "probable", "presumptive"... When one say "possible", one wants odds before making any bet.
In our case at hand, Laurin's poster, it is possible that there is no sexual element, but we use possible because it is probable that there is. By using "possible", we are admitting that. We are not sure, and there may not be. But it is odds against. We go with the alternative unless we have supporting evidence to make it more than possible. Instead we have "terrible taste as a kid" [consistent with her having lost interest in sex] and a daughter [which also "possibly" was not the result of an interest in sex, but probably was]. And of course, when a case depends on additional possibilities, it becomes even less likely.

[hamishspence]

Depends on the particular "one" in question.

[orrion]

As said, the absolute, as in "perfect", "always", "never", ... is so rare in practice that it is extended to the near absolute in order to be used at all. When one tries to claim error on the grounds that 99% is not 100%, that is routinely a quibble that should be ignored.

As also said - that sounds like a belated justification for your earlier use of those terms.

How about next time.. don't use those terms.



"Possible" was being used here as "50%" [or as some other reasonable chance that gives it equal standing with other ideas]. But when one says "... well, it is possible..." one is routinely expressing extreme doubt that it is reality. Even more positive meanings are pretty negative. "It's possible, isn't it?" merely means "non-zero", not any significant number. One normally uses such language when facing a doubting audience.
One does not use possible about high percentages. "Likely", "probable", "presumptive"... When one say "possible", one wants odds before making any bet.

That's complete BS. People use "possible" all the time in context that does not express extreme doubt. It's actually pretty astounding that you don't know this considering your statements above.

It can be used that way, but to suggest it's being used that way in this case is ludicrous. That's not how the context reads, and you're grossly misinterpreting.

Besides, even if I were to grant you that "possible" is used primarily in the manner in which you outline it, it's patently clear that the poster here was NOT using it in that manner, in which case you should be substituting something else that fits rather than wasting time trying to justify an erroneous interpretation.



In our case at hand, Laurin's poster, it is possible that there is no sexual element, but we use possible because it is probable that there is. By using "possible", we are admitting that. We are not sure, and there may not be. But it is odds against. We go with the alternative unless we have supporting evidence to make it more than possible. Instead we have "terrible taste as a kid" [consistent with her having lost interest in sex] and a daughter [which also "possibly" was not the result of an interest in sex, but probably was]. And of course, when a case depends on additional possibilities, it becomes even less likely.

I find it incredibly ironic and amusing that you mention supporting evidence considering you have none. Also: What. The. Heck. You just finished writing about how possible meant "extreme doubt" and then you use it here to mean "probable that there is"? Really?


Now, I'm going to try and read past the BS semantics here and just get to the point:

Is there a non-zero chance that someone who idolizes Julio sexually would join his club? Yes.

Are there several other reasons to join said club that also have a non-zero chance? Yes.

Is there any evidence that more members join because of the sexual element than any other reason? NO.

Edit: Typos.

[Fish]

So David agree with me. When HE says 100% it doesn't mean 100%.

When other people use "possible" it means "virtually impossible,"

[Dumbestupidiot]

1) I'm sorry, what? Bella is a blank slate? Even if I bought that, at least Bella has repeated interactions with both Edward and Jacob that suggest more than friendship. With Tarquin and Laurin, there are ZERO such interactions. Moreover, she isn't a blank slate. We're just not privy to her family situation. There's many other characters where that same thing is true.

2) I don't see what any of that has to do with anything.

3) No she doesn't. She saw an opportunity and seized it. She didn't have an interest in getting Tarquin into debt until Tarquin showed what he was willing to do to get what he wanted. You need a pattern to prove that she's had an interest in it, and all you have is an isolated event with much better explanations. Not to mention that she would have tried to get Tarquin into debt before creating that gigantic Wormhole that got the army to the crater. Also, any of them could have numerous things in mind for favors at any point.

4) Or she has any number of projects going on and she had a thought along the lines of "Hey, Tarquin could help me complete and/or progress that project right after we're done here!"

Far as Laurin asking Tarquin to get rid of Ian.. She was kind of standing right there when Tarquin explained about framing him for treason and showed Haley the Wanted! poster. Even if she wanted to get rid of Ian, she'd have to be an idiot to use her favor to ask Tarquin to kill someone who isn't in his dungeon anymore and who already has a bounty for death on his head.

I am trying to examine why people feel the need to ship Laurin and Tarquin, I suppose i shoulda led with where i was coming from

1. I was talking about readers projecting themselves onto the characters, Bella was merely an example of a bland protagonist the readers could relate with, Laurin isn't bland but she has a vast amount of empty canvas that readers can fill in with whatever we want. She could be a liontamer, or have a son that dresses as a clown and collects roaches, or have a secret thing for kobolds, who knows. It's basically anything but it can be anything as opposed to say Tarquin who when he was introduced we learn he is Elan's dad and he fits in the narrative easily, helped by star wars referances.

2. Her being interesting is one of the reasons people pick up on her as opposed to Miron. It's one of the reasons she is picked out from other characters to be shipped and studied and thought about and have 7 pages of responses to a random speculation.

3. I'll grant you that she saw an opportunity and took it, that is pretty explicit, but I do wonder if she and Miron had the same conversation, but with Miron giving her a favor instead, would the shipping with Tarquin still happen? or if people would think her and Miron had a thing.

4. Yes, there are all sorts of things that she could want, but it was just was badly phrased, especially due to the aforementioned people projecting themselves on the character. Some people read it and say to themselves, if i could get something i wanted tonight,after i get home form work, what would it be? They don't usually immediately think of a couple of battalions to invade another person's country but of their own desires when such a question occurs to them. This can be especially pernicious on the internet due to unknown other windows being open in the background.

I just wanted to explore reasons why people would think that rather than just automatically people claiming that others are sexist (without quite saying it out loud). Yes, she is female, and I admit, sexism might be a part of it, but there are other reasons as well and i wanted to explore those.

As i did note that she is one of the few named humans recently that people can go out and ship as the past few (Tarquin, Ian, etc.) are related to characters and have a narrative place in the story. Even Malack had gotten into the fatherland action when he spawned a child with Durkon.

As far as the getting rid of Ian was concerned, i just tacked that on the end as a sort of brief thought, as should be noted by the starting of "it would be fun if"... Just like it'd be fun if i had a million dollars. But as you pointed it it is never gonna happen. *sigh* I guess i die poor...

(Brief Note: Laurin's demeanor throughout the comic thus far has been professional and all for her own best interest. This is her job, and Tarquin is a coworker. Any office romances or whatever is all in the minds of the readers This is why i am interested in thinking about the reader's reasoning and interest in exploring the more personal side of Laurin (and the need to gossip about her))

[David Argall]

As also said - that sounds like a belated justification for your earlier use of those terms.

How about next time.. don't use those terms.
Since they are used in their standard way, how about you accept that they are correct?



People use "possible" all the time in context that does not express extreme doubt.
Reread. The statement did not say "possible" always means "extreme doubt". It said it is used that way in one case. Several other versions were mentioned as shown other degrees of doubt.



It can be used that way, but to suggest it's being used that way in this case is ludicrous. That's not how the context reads, and you're grossly misinterpreting.
This is an assertion, and thus need support. On its own, it is just words.



Besides, even if I were to grant you that "possible" is used primarily in the manner in which you outline it, it's patently clear that the poster here was NOT using it in that manner,
In which case, I am correct in pointing out the poster was using the word incorrectly.



I find it incredibly ironic and amusing that you mention supporting evidence considering you have none.
This is simply ignoring the following statements.



Now, I'm going to try and read past the BS semantics here and just get to the point:

[QUOTE=orrion;16860574]
Is there a non-zero chance that someone who idolizes Julio sexually would join his club? Yes.

Are there several other reasons to join said club that also have a non-zero chance? Yes.

Is there any evidence that more members join because of the sexual element than any other reason? NO.

Of course, we can put that in reverse. Is there any evidence that less members join because of the sexual element? And by your standards, it would seem the answer is also no.
But we don't need anything like equality here. Almost nobody has only one motive for joining a group, or putting up a poster. We can easily have 95% admiration of daring deeds, 90% wanting to belong to a group, 85% admiring pirates, & 80% sexual, and we would still have strong evidence of Laurin having a sexual interest in her younger years.

[orrion]

Since they are used in their standard way, how about you accept that they are correct?

Standard way based on what? A few of this forum's previous discussion threads? Sorry, no.

I'm going to have to say that words should be used as fits their definition. Since you're arguing that the "standard" way is an incorrect usage then it's not "standard" at all.



Reread. The statement did not say "possible" always means "extreme doubt". It said it is used that way in one case. Several other versions were mentioned as shown other degrees of doubt.

Since it wasn't used that way here, how is that even relevant?



In which case, I am correct in pointing out the poster was using the word incorrectly.

It wasn't used incorrectly.

Besides, you used it the same way.



This is an assertion, and thus need support. On its own, it is just words.

This applies to everything you're posting.



Of course, we can put that in reverse. Is there any evidence that less members join because of the sexual element? And by your standards, it would seem the answer is also no.

By your own admission, assertions need support. Therefore the default interpretation should not be an assertion that more members join because of the sexual element.



But we don't need anything like equality here. Almost nobody has only one motive for joining a group, or putting up a poster. We can easily have 95% admiration of daring deeds, 90% wanting to belong to a group, 85% admiring pirates, & 80% sexual, and we would still have strong evidence of Laurin having a sexual interest in her younger years.

Except that there is, again, no such evidence of Laurin having such a sexual interest in her younger years.

[jere7my]

While it can be annoying for female characters having romance defined as their primary interest, at least more so than for male characters, this seems to be a common tendency in a lot of literature, and embedded in fantasy from the start.

Yes. This is part of the problem. Audiences assuming that any and every new female character will follow this unfortunate pattern, even in the face of authorial clarification, is another part.


One does not use possible about high percentages. "Likely", "probable", "presumptive"... When one say "possible", one wants odds before making any bet.

It is possible that you are correct, by which I mean you are not correct.

"Possible" can be used to enumerate possibilities (See that word there? They are related) before assigning probabilities, or when there is insufficient information to assign probabilities. "It's possible that I left my keys by the door, but you should also check the kitchen counter" is a perfectly reasonable sentence to utter if you're a) pretty sure the keys are by the door and b) a careful speaker. Watch pop-sci people like Neil deGrasse Tyson on the news sometime. They'll frequently reply to questions with "Sure, that's possible. But it's also possible that X is true," and either the first possibility or the second might be the more likely. It's a way of speaking carefully without being accidentally interpreted as making predictions on insufficient evidence, which is apt to happen when you use "likely" or "probable."

In this case, if you don't have a survey in your hand on the subject of motivations for straight teenage girls to hang posters of male celebrities, you have even fewer legs to stand on than usual. And the premise is so far away from anything to do with the subject of this thread or anything in the comic—there is no real poster, you know, right? Laurin was never really a teenager, so her motivations for hanging the non-existent poster are probably going to remain ill-defined—that it baffles me why this conversation is even continuing.

Are you trying to demonstrate that Laurin has, at one time in her life, had sexual feelings? She has a daughter; odds are good. Barring that, she's a human being with no in-comic support for being A; she's probably had sex once or twice. That has nothing to do with tying her favor to sex; I've had sex once or twice, and if I had a favor coming from a ruler of nations it would have little or nothing to do with sex. Whether or not she has a healthy sex life, and I hope she does, assuming her favor involves sex is falling into the trap I described at the top of this post, of defining all female characters by their relationships and their fan-serviceability. It makes no sense, it's not happening, and let's all move on, shall we?

[factotum]

While it can be annoying for female characters having romance defined as their primary interest, at least more so than for male characters, this seems to be a common tendency in a lot of literature, and embedded in fantasy from the start.

All the examples you give to support this position are in works that are 50 or more years old. Attitudes towards sexism (and racism, for that matter) were utterly different then, so you can't say "Because it was OK in this work from 1934, it's OK now".

[Loreweaver15]

Laurin's favor is for Tarquin to stop making her waffles.

I honestly don't think anybody's giving this particular instance of perfect comedic timing the credit it deserves.

[DaggerPen]

I honestly don't think anybody's giving this particular instance of perfect comedic timing the credit it deserves.

It certainly made me laugh.

[oppyu]

I honestly don't think anybody's giving this particular instance of perfect comedic timing the credit it deserves.
Thirded. Poor Tarkie, nobody wants his waffles.

[David Argall]

"Possible" can be used to enumerate possibilities (See that word there? They are related)
Related words can have quite different meanings. [For that matter, so can the same word.] A minor example would be "ignorant" where the subject has no idea and "ignored" where the subject may have an excellent idea, but refuses to react to the object.



before assigning probabilities, or when there is insufficient information to assign probabilities.
The use of "can" here tells us that this is a low possibility that this is the use we have in mind. And when we have possibilities, there is a very low chance that any is a probability.



"It's possible that I left my keys by the door, but you should also check the kitchen counter" is a perfectly reasonable sentence to utter if you're a) pretty sure the keys are by the door and b) a careful speaker.
No. If you are pretty sure the keys are by the door, you say "I probably left the keys by the door, but..." Saying "It's possible..." means you are unsure of where the keys are and/or you doubt they are there.



Watch pop-sci people like Neil deGrasse Tyson on the news sometime. They'll frequently reply to questions with "Sure, that's possible. But it's also possible that X is true," and either the first possibility or the second might be the more likely. It's a way of speaking carefully without being accidentally interpreted as making predictions on insufficient evidence, which is apt to happen when you use "likely" or "probable."
Your description seems to imply that there are [at least] 3 possibilities, the 3rd in cases of ignorance being "something else". So we are talking of possibilities that will normally be less than probabilities.



In this case, if you don't have a survey in your hand on the subject of motivations for straight teenage girls to hang posters of male celebrities, you have even fewer legs to stand on than usual.
"Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.", and that teenage girls have sexual interests is a very ordinary claim, needing very casual evidence. Even 257, when the girls have a conversation and one of the few words we catch is "boys" is almost sufficient evidence. What is extraordinary is that girls hang such posters of boys without such a motive.



And the premise is so far away from anything to do with the subject of this thread or anything in the comic...that it baffles me why this conversation is even continuing.

Are you trying to demonstrate that Laurin has, at one time in her life, had sexual feelings? She has a daughter; odds are good. Barring that, she's a human being with no in-comic support for being A; she's probably had sex once or twice. That has nothing to do with tying her favor to sex;
Now where have I said that her favor has anything to do with her personal sexual urges? In fact I have rejected the idea on more mundane grounds that a woman that wants sex need merely hold still in the routine case, not engage in life threatening feats.



let's all move on, shall we?
You do not need my permission to move on. All you need do is stop posting on the subject, and I can't make you post.

[Dumbestupidiot]

You do not need my permission to move on. All you need do is stop posting on the subject, and I can't make you post.

Well, we can't move on until you pay the waffle tax.

I'd like mine with chunky kobold salsa : )

[SaintRidley]

{{scrubbed}}

[Socksy]

Am I the only one who thinks that a lot of his points are valid?

[jere7my]

Related words can have quite different meanings.

"The use of 'can' here tells us that this is a low possibility that this is the use we have in mind."


The use of "can" here tells us that this is a low possibility that this is the use we have in mind.

No. No it does not. I used the word; I know what it means. Language is not as narrow as you would find it convenient to be.


And when we have possibilities, there is a very low chance that any is a probability.

If there are two possibilities, one of them must, at minimum, have a 50% chance of being true. Or are you saying that your interpretation of Laurin's poster motivations has a very low chance of being probable because there are multiple possibilities? (I'm ignoring the fact that you're demonstrating my point about related words by using the word "possibilities" here.)


No. If you are pretty sure the keys are by the door, you say "I probably left the keys by the door, but..." Saying "It's possible..." means you are unsure of where the keys are and/or you doubt they are there.

What, are you the gatekeeper of language use now? I'm telling you how I, and many other people, use the word. We get our meaning across perfectly well. "It's possible" means you aren't making a claim of probability, just enumerating possibilities. That can be useful even when one of the possibilities is likelier than the others.


Your description seems to imply that there are [at least] 3 possibilities, the 3rd in cases of ignorance being "something else". So we are talking of possibilities that will normally be less than probabilities.

Wut? That's neither how English nor how math works. Three possibilities do not "normally" imply they are all improbable. There is no presumption of equal division of the probability pie.


What is extraordinary is that girls hang such posters of boys without such a motive.

No, what is extraordinary is your insistence that there can be no doubt that that was her motive. It is, among other things, a possibility. One alternate possibility, however unlikely, refutes any claim of certainty. You were claiming certainty; the existence of other possibilities means you were wrong, however likely or unlikely they are.


a woman that wants sex need merely hold still in the routine case, not engage in life threatening feats.

Oh dear God.

[Kish]

Am I the only one who thinks that a lot of his points are valid?
Presumably he does, so no.

[jere7my]

Am I the only one who thinks that a lot of his points are valid?

It's possible.

[137beth]

{{scrubbed}}

My Google-fu is failing me, but I'm fairly certain there was a thread that was completely derailed by the proper usage of pronouns in something Tarquin said.

[warrl]

If we have a rehash of the incredibly creepy argument where a poster who will remain unnamed tried to equate teenage girls owning posters of cute boys with... icky, icky things, I will find a way to destroy this forum.

IMHO that would be redundant.

[David Argall]

{{scrubbed}}

[jere7my]

{{scrubbed}}

[oppyu]

{{scrubbed}}
I think of it more as we're fish, and David's arguments are that Anglerfish Marlin and Dory see in Finding Nemo. The bright, pretty light draws us in with it's illogic just waiting to be refuted, then BAM (http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121021041311/disney/images/0/0c/Finding_nemo_dory_marlin_angler_fish.jpg)! You're stuck in an argument about the teenage girls having poster sex or something. Poor Jere7my...

[jere7my]

I think of it more as we're fish, and David's arguments are that Anglerfish Marlin and Dory see in Finding Nemo. The bright, pretty light draws us in with it's illogic just waiting to be refuted, then BAM (http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121021041311/disney/images/0/0c/Finding_nemo_dory_marlin_angler_fish.jpg)! You're stuck in an argument about the teenage girls having poster sex or something. Poor Jere7my...

You're right—this is not a good use of my time, David's time, or the board's time. David has moved from this:


Any woman who joins such a fan club is thinking about sex.

to this:


For our Laurin poster case, we do not need to be at all certain. We can allow a large percentage of girls to not be influenced by sex....

I consider the latter to be a repudiation of the earlier absolutist statement, which was the only thing I cared about refuting anyway. David is free to explain why the two statements are in fact compatible; I will be walking away from the hair-splitting and sophistry.

[Bulldog Psion]

At this point, my take on it is, "who the **** cares what Laurin's sexuality or asexuality is, who the ****ing **** cares why she had a poster of Julio, and who the **** cares what her favor was or whether it will be revealed? **** it all!" :smallmad:

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

[orrion]

"Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.", and that teenage girls have sexual interests is a very ordinary claim, needing very casual evidence. Even 257, when the girls have a conversation and one of the few words we catch is "boys" is almost sufficient evidence. What is extraordinary is that girls hang such posters of boys without such a motive.

Your claim wasn't "teenage girls have sexual interest."

Your claim was "Any woman that joins such a club is thinking about sex."

That is not an ordinary claim.

[Lettuce]

My Google-fu is failing me, but I'm fairly certain there was a thread that was completely derailed by the proper usage of pronouns in something Tarquin said.

Found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308885&page=11&postcount=307) Starts partway down the page. It's amusing to note that it's actually from the LAST thread about Laurin's favor. :smalltongue:

[Fish]

Your claim wasn't "teenage girls have sexual interest."

Your claim was "Any woman that joins such a club is thinking about sex."

That is not an ordinary claim.
And it does not match the evidence.

The evidence is where Laurin says, I quote, I had terrible taste when I was young. Young — not teenaged. Young. Could "young" mean teenager? Yes... but it could also mean "pre-teen." Or it could also mean "younger than I am now" or "when I was in psionics academy" or "in my early twenties."

We have no data on when Laurin owned this poster. David is simply being stubborn when he insists that his own interpretation is, and can be, the only logical one.

[Dragonus45]

Face it or not, the evidence sits more towards her having a crush on Julio than her not having a crush on Julio, and I don't see why people are so adamant that would be a bad thing. Why are you all just against the idea of female sexuality that you get so horrified and sickened by the idea that she might have had a crush on a guy when she was younger.

[jere7my]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Fish]

I would say people are far more horrified by abuses of language and logic. I have no problem with the idea that, if Laurin was of age, sex appeal is the most likely reason. It's only when someone has the presumption to say it is the only reason, for all women, full stop, and then spends 1,000 words trying to twist the meaning of language so "all women" doesn't necessarily mean "all women," that it provokes an argument.

[Dragonus45]

I am referring more to the people declared it "just far to squicky" and so on and so forth.

[jere7my]

I am referring more to the people declared it "just far to squicky" and so on and so forth.

I think they were probably talking about a pre-teen Laurin having sexual desires, since the Mouseketeers were primarily pre-teens. Of course, nothing stops a tweenager from thinking about sex, but it's a squicky topic for a lot of people.

[oppyu]

I am referring more to the people declared it "just far to squicky" and so on and so forth.
I oppose it on the grounds that people should not be debating about the sexual desires, imagined or not, of underage girls, because ew.

[Fish]

I am referring more to the people declared it "just far to squicky" and so on and so forth.
Consider the claim: all women join such a fan club [featuring a person such as Julio] because they're thinking of sex." While David's claim is typically over-stated, and a looser generalization would be accepted, his wording takes us to awkward and squicky territory. All women includes the very young and old, the healthy and the disabled, the straight and otherwise. Perhaps David could have said, "most hetero women women past puberty," but he didn't. Most people, i suspect, don't want to contemplate the possibility of a 5-year-old girl lusting after a 40-year-old swashbuckler. Those who do can seek the Piers Anthony boards.

[marq]

{{Scrubbed}}

[DaggerPen]

{{Scrubbed}}

I think it'd be at least -3.

[Fish]

You know, when I read David's statement, my mind didn't even consider that.
Nor did I. There were so many logical errors in his statement, I never considered this one.

[Yendor]

We have no data on when Laurin owned this poster. David is simply being stubborn when he insists that his own interpretation is, and can be, the only logical one.

Sure we do. Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16450188#post16450188) puts Laurin in "probably her late 50's". Julio has been active more than 30 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html). Taken together, this suggests Laurin was somewhere in her mid-twenties at the start of Julio's career. She must have been at least as old as that when she had the poster.

[oppyu]

Sure we do. Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16450188#post16450188) puts Laurin in "probably her late 50's". Julio has been active more than 30 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html). Taken together, this suggests Laurin was somewhere in her mid-twenties at the start of Julio's career. She must have been at least as old as that when she had the poster.
Huh. So not only was this whole debate about the teenage girls thing icky and bitter, it was also completely pointless.

Another stunning endorsement for the sanity of this forum!

[orrion]

Face it or not, the evidence sits more towards her having a crush on Julio than her not having a crush on Julio, and I don't see why people are so adamant that would be a bad thing. Why are you all just against the idea of female sexuality that you get so horrified and sickened by the idea that she might have had a crush on a guy when she was younger.

The idea that Laurin may have had a crush on Julio at some point in her life isn't a bad thing.

The bad thing is asserting that "All women who join fan clubs for males are thinking about sex and only about sex."

The other bad thing is then trying to create a BS argument centered around the idea that the language used to repeatedly make that assertion has a different meaning than what it actually does.


The in general bad thing is the tendency for audiences to ascribe a sexual motive to all women characters in any situation even if there's no basis for it.

[David Argall]

The idea that Laurin may have had a crush on Julio at some point in her life isn't a bad thing.

The bad thing is asserting that "All women who join fan clubs for males are thinking about sex and only about sex."

The other bad thing is then trying to create a BS argument centered around the idea that the language used to repeatedly make that assertion has a different meaning than what it actually does.
Which amounts to saying you are quibbling. You stipulate that Laurin probably was more or less normal in her sexual urges in her younger years, and that her possession of the poster and membership in the fan club are evidence of this, as is her dislike of her earlier attitudes. You wish to say it is not 100% proved.
But for most of our normal activities, 90% or lower is pretty much the same as 100%. In the criminal court we want 100% and the criminal can escape when there is little doubt of his guilt. But in the civil court, the theoretical percentage is 51% and you can lose large amounts based on such low percentages. We are much more a civil court here and a probably guilty is a guilty.

By the way, while the idea that Laurin was in her 20's seems to calm a number of people down, this should probably be deemed author error. Posters and fan clubs are heavily teen activities, as is doing things the older you finds unacceptable. And it is easy to miss a decade or two when you are thinking 30-40 years in the past.



The in general bad thing is the tendency for audiences to ascribe a sexual motive to all women characters in any situation even if there's no basis for it.
But we are sexual creatures. Female or male, sex is routinely a constant major drive for the large majority of our lives. Female sexual motives are widespread and powerful. We might say male are even more so, but female are far of asexual.

[factotum]

But we are sexual creatures. Female or male, sex is routinely a constant major drive for the large majority of our lives. Female sexual motives are widespread and powerful. We might say male are even more so, but female are far of asexual.

You realise there is a vast yawning gulf between "everyone is thinking of sex nearly all the time" and "everyone is asexual"? Not everything is black and white, one extreme or the other.

[FujinAkari]

But for most of our normal activities, 90% or lower is pretty much the same as 100%.

1) No. 90% isn't pretty much the same as 100%. If 90% was pretty much the same as 100%, then you could be without power thirty five days out of a year and not see anything wrong with that.

2) You additionally seem to be pulling the number 90% out of thin air. I just did a quick check of my apartment and found that I have five posters. I have never had any romantic feelings or sexual urges towards the people depicted in any of them.

[SaintRidley]

Sure we do. Word of Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16450188#post16450188) puts Laurin in "probably her late 50's". Julio has been active more than 30 years (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html). Taken together, this suggests Laurin was somewhere in her mid-twenties at the start of Julio's career. She must have been at least as old as that when she had the poster.

more than thirty years means her twenties is the oldest she could have been, not the youngest. She must have been in her twenties at most.

[Ridureyu]

I swear, this argument is prime evidence that yes, mankind can invent a perpetual motion machine. Because some things just go on and on forever and ever.

[oppyu]

more than thirty years means her twenties is the oldest she could have been, not the youngest. She must have been in her twenties at most.
It would have been odd for Julio Scoundrel to say "more than 30 years" if he had been active for 60 . For example, someone wouldn't say "I can run 100m in under 15 seconds" if they could run it in 12.29 seconds.

[Socksy]

Not entirely sure why some people think teenage girls having sex/sexual attractions is squicky... The minimum age in western Europe is 13-16 depending on country, I suppose it might be different in the USA?

Related: OotS is set in medieval times (loosely), and so if there is any minimum age at all, it would be around ten, no matter how squicky that is to us.


My own views on the matter are that Laurin may well be an Elan, hundreds of years old - fairly sure the Giant said 'maybe' or 'probably' in her late fifties - and 'when she was younger' refers to when she was a human.

[FujinAkari]

Not entirely sure why some people think teenage girls having sex/sexual attractions is squicky... The minimum age in western Europe is 13-16 depending on country, I suppose it might be different in the USA?

People aren't. People are squicked by the thought of 7ish year old girls (the age of the mousecateers) being motivated by sexual desire.

[ChristianSt]

It would have been odd for Julio Scoundrel to say "more than 30 years" if he had been active for 60 . For example, someone wouldn't say "I can run 100m in under 15 seconds" if they could run it in 12.29 seconds.

I'm not that sure: If Julio says "more than 60 years", he would also state that he is at least 60 years old (or more realistically at least 70). Stating "more than 30 years" is still quite a long time, but doesn't imply he is soon dying of old age (even if only to convince himself that he has still a long life before him).

People lie about their age often enough, so it wouldn't be that far off to lie about information that can be used to peg their age.

[Socksy]

Originally Posted by oppyu View Post
If we have a rehash of the incredibly creepy argument where a poster who will remain unnamed tried to equate teenage girls owning posters of cute boys with... icky, icky things, I will find a way to destroy this forum

^ This is the post I'm referring to (and failing horribly to properly quote). I might have misinterpreted it - I thought it meant teenage sexuality by 'icky, icky things'.

Also, what is a mouseketeer? It sounds, from what I've read on here, to be a mickey mouse fan. Is that correct?

[Dragonus45]

The idea that Laurin may have had a crush on Julio at some point in her life isn't a bad thing.

The bad thing is asserting that "All women who join fan clubs for males are thinking about sex and only about sex."

The other bad thing is then trying to create a BS argument centered around the idea that the language used to repeatedly make that assertion has a different meaning than what it actually does.


The in general bad thing is the tendency for audiences to ascribe a sexual motive to all women characters in any situation even if there's no basis for it.

Honestly I'm trying to stick away from the language argument because i see it as a case of person making a reasonable statement with less than perfect language and people jumping on it because they have issue with the idea and are attacking the language instead. That said let she or he who has not made a hyperbolas statement cast the first spell.

I'm more interested in the fact that people seem to be caught up in this idea that shipping Lauren is in some way sinister, and different than any other ship. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out a lot of reasons people would find Lauren interesting enough to ship her, with no regard to the fact that she happened to be a woman. Shipping rarely has no basis in anything to do with reality.

As to Lauren age, I have been rolling with the assumption that she was somewhere in 11-17 bracket when she had the poster, I wasn't putting to much though into it at the time but it would fit with Julio's statement about how long he had been adventuring. Being active for over thirty years implies to me some time more than thirty but less than forty, otherwise why not notch up the decade count to sound better. 33-34 actually seems most likely because in advertising saying over 35 years would be a better response for being in the latter half of thirty. Normally I wouldn't attribute that level of conciseness to a character but this being Julio Scoundrel The Most Interesting Man in the Stickyverss I wouldn't put it past him.


^ This is the post I'm referring to (and failing horribly to properly quote). I might have misinterpreted it - I thought it meant teenage sexuality by 'icky, icky things'.

Also, what is a mouseketeer? It sounds, from what I've read on here, to be a mickey mouse fan. Is that correct?

Yea, they were people who signed up to be members of the Micky Mouse Club if i remember correctly, i was never a member. I think the general age group was anywhere from infant to tweens but don't quote me on it.

[Kish]

^ This is the post I'm referring to (and failing horribly to properly quote). I might have misinterpreted it - I thought it meant teenage sexuality by 'icky, icky things'.
No, it means rape by "icky, icky things." It means explicit statements that purchasing a poster of an attractive celebrity and breaking into that celebrity's home are different "in degree, not in kind." It means...

Y'know, although the forum search function is off quite possibly permanently, you still could gain insight by going to Google and plugging in "Giant in the Playground" "David Argall" "sex".

[Dragonus45]

No, it means rape by "icky, icky things." It means explicit statements that purchasing a poster of an attractive celebrity and breaking into that celebrity's home are different "in degree, not in kind." It means...

Y'know, although the forum search function is off quite possibly permanently, you still could gain insight by going to Google and plugging in "Giant in the Playground" "David Argall" "sex".

Honestly that idea never occurred to me, I tend not to try dig into other peoples posts much, makes me feel like a cyber stalker. If that is true than i also misinterpreted the post.

[Socksy]

No, it means rape by "icky, icky things." It means explicit statements that purchasing a poster of an attractive celebrity and breaking into that celebrity's home are different "in degree, not in kind." It means...

Y'know, although the forum search function is off quite possibly permanently, you still could gain insight by going to Google and plugging in "Giant in the Playground" "David Argall" "sex".

... Um, wow. I... Think I will just take your word on that, and not Google it at all.:smalleek:

[SaintRidley]

No, it means rape by "icky, icky things." It means explicit statements that purchasing a poster of an attractive celebrity and breaking into that celebrity's home are different "in degree, not in kind." It means...

Y'know, although the forum search function is off quite possibly permanently, you still could gain insight by going to Google and plugging in "Giant in the Playground" "David Argall" "sex".

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16756667&postcount=920)


"The teenager mooning over a poster is not far [in theory] from breaking into his room with lewd intent."

[Socksy]

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16756667&postcount=920)

Lewd is a synonym of 'cheeky', but with sexual tones, if I'm correct.
I think (I hope) that passage merely means seduction.
Lying on the celebrity's bed wearing only an edible bikini or the like which is not a mental image of Laurin which I needed, ew and waiting for them.

[FujinAkari]

Lewd is a synonym of 'cheeky', but with sexual tones, if I'm correct.

The definition is "Crude and offensive in a sexual way."

Additionally, the description of 'breaking into their room' makes your reading of the statement relatively impossible, at least to my eyes.

[David Argall]

People aren't. People are squicked by the thought of 7ish year old girls (the age of the mousecateers) being motivated by sexual desire.
A quick search doesn't find all of the ages of the mousecateers, but does for most. Starting ages for the first year were 14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 12, 9, 9, 9. They of course got older in successive seasons. There may have been somebody sometime that was not yet 8, but the average age was much higher.

[Socksy]

The definition is "Crude and offensive in a sexual way."

Additionally, the description of 'breaking into their room' makes your reading of the statement relatively impossible, at least to my eyes.

I interpreted ' breaking in' as more stealthy than forceful. Then again, I generally try to assume things are as non-horrible as possible, although you're probably right. :c

[FujinAkari]

A quick search doesn't find all of the ages of the mousecateers, but does for most. Starting ages for the first year were 14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 12, 9, 9, 9. They of course got older in successive seasons. There may have been somebody sometime that was not yet 8, but the average age was much higher.

Unless you are arguing that Lauren was, at some point, a Television Celebrity, restricting the age range to those that appeared on the show itself rather than the target audience (both were referred to as 'mousekateers') seems intentionally misleading.

[orrion]

Which amounts to saying you are quibbling. You stipulate that Laurin probably was more or less normal in her sexual urges in her younger years, and that her possession of the poster and membership in the fan club are evidence of this, as is her dislike of her earlier attitudes. You wish to say it is not 100% proved.

You're attempting to change the meaning of words around and thus change the original argument you made and supported, and I'm quibbling when I point out how erroneous that is?

No, I don't think so.



But for most of our normal activities, 90% or lower is pretty much the same as 100%. In the criminal court we want 100% and the criminal can escape when there is little doubt of his guilt. But in the civil court, the theoretical percentage is 51% and you can lose large amounts based on such low percentages. We are much more a civil court here and a probably guilty is a guilty.

I'm pretty sure you meant 90% or higher, and no, it's not. When the heck did court proceedings become "normal activities" for anyone outside the legal profession, anyway?



By the way, while the idea that Laurin was in her 20's seems to calm a number of people down, this should probably be deemed author error. Posters and fan clubs are heavily teen activities, as is doing things the older you finds unacceptable. And it is easy to miss a decade or two when you are thinking 30-40 years in the past.

Horsecrap. I've known lots of people that have posters of games, sports people, and music people that are way out of their teens.



But we are sexual creatures. Female or male, sex is routinely a constant major drive for the large majority of our lives. Female sexual motives are widespread and powerful. We might say male are even more so, but female are far of asexual.

Nobody made the claim that females are asexual. Sexual motives are simply not the driving force for every single action that someone takes, which means that you shouldn't ascribe a highly sexual motivation to a woman who has shown ZERO inclination that she has one for this favor.

[Rodin]

I'm more interested in the fact that people seem to be caught up in this idea that shipping Lauren is in some way sinister, and different than any other ship. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out a lot of reasons people would find Lauren interesting enough to ship her, with no regard to the fact that she happened to be a woman. Shipping rarely has no basis in anything to do with reality.

The double standard is what gets me (and I assume, most people who are motivated to post on it). Laurin is a mid-50's woman with kid(s) (the implication being she's married, although we have no hard data on it). So why do people immediately begin shipping her? Because she's a woman.

Nobody's shipping Miron, or Shoulder-Pad Guy, or Gourntunk. Nobody decided that Bozzok keeps Crystal around because he's romantically interested in her.

The idea that Laurin would want to jump Tarquin's bones for no reason I can discern is offensive. The idea that Laurin seriously entertained breaking into Julio's house and forcing herself on him (and worse, that all teenage girls do this) is offensive. And the idea that she would betray a long-time colleague (and arguably, friend) over a crush she had 20-30+ years ago is also offensive.

I don't really see what's so hard about this. Ship a returning Hilgya with Durkon? That's perfectly fine, there is an established relationship to use as a basis. Ship Laurin with a man she's shown no interest in, when she already has an established family in another country? WHY?