Help me Explore Optimization Concepts and Ideas. Show me what you got!

[GhengisConrad]

1st Draft

Alright, so, I often ask for advice on a build, but tie everything up so that basically the build is what I've already made it.

I'm going to, instead, leave only the key ingredients, and the rest up to you guys!


Alright, so


~What to optimize~

Let's try a pretty open ended concept:

Armor Class.

Get the armor class as high as possible.

~Build Restrictions~

32 point buy

Items are restricted to commonly available adventuring equipment in the Player's Handbook.

No pre-buffs or dependance on third parties. The build cannot require someone to cast 'awaken' on it, or 'return to nature' or anything you would need a second person, or 'prep time' for.

Humanoidish. The build must resemble a human... to a degree. Orcs, Anthropomorphic animals, demons are okay. Dragonborn, Thri-Keen, Locathah are out.

Medium-Sized

Natural/non-magical flight

Unlimited Fast Healing 1 or equivalent by ECL 5

Optimized characteristics must be unlimited. I.E. not carry a #/day restriction.


~Rules Clarification~

Anything 3.X is allowed, including Dragon Magazine. Limited Unearthed Arcana, I'm new to it, be gentle. No flaws or LA buyoff.

RAW is... open to interpretations. Here are the arena's



Battle Jump: Battle Jump changes a charge from a straight line run to a drop action and dealing double damage. This does not change time requirements. You must still use a full round action to perform your charge.

Open X Chakra: This feat does not also grant the epic feat 'extra chakra bind' as a bonus feat.

[EugeneVoid]

Optimized characteristics must be unlimited. I.E. not carry a #/day restriction.

Why this I must ask?
Is it because of a fear of lack in management of resources or that you are playing in a game where there is combat always, never ending, where a caster hasn't even the time to teleport or extend ropetrick?

[eggynack]

I'm not entirely sure what this is. Why is this book unlimited, except items are stuck in core? Why are buffs just flat out disallowed, despite the fact that you can easily get buffs up all day? Why are dragonborn disallowed? They are humanoid y'know. What does fast healing and non-magical flight have to do with AC? What level is this supposed to be? It seems like ECL 5, but that only appears to connect to the odd fast healing thing. Why are weird RAW rulings that have no apparent connection to AC a part of this? It just all feels vaguely arbitrary.

[OldTrees1]

Optimized characteristics must be unlimited. I.E. not carry a #/day restriction.

Why this I must ask?
Is it because of a fear of lack in management of resources or that you are playing in a game where there is combat always, never ending, where a caster hasn't even the time to teleport or extend ropetrick?

The OP plays in a 24hrs per day adventure day. So it is very similar to the constant combat adventure day.


I'm not entirely sure what this is. Why is this book unlimited, except items are stuck in core? Why are buffs just flat out disallowed, despite the fact that you can easily get buffs up all day? Why are dragonborn disallowed? They are humanoid y'know. What does fast healing and non-magical flight have to do with AC? What level is this supposed to be? It seems like ECL 5, but that only appears to connect to the odd fast healing thing. Why are weird RAW rulings that have no apparent connection to AC a part of this? It just all feels vaguely arbitrary.

At the OP's table, items characters are dependent upon can/will be lost/broken so a character cannot rely on items.

Fast healing is probably related to the constant adventuring day. (infinite out of combat healing would be necessary to keep the character alive)


@GhengisConrad
1) Why the racial restrictions?
2) Why are Dragonborn in the not-humanoid looking when they are more humanoid looking than anthropomorphic lizards?
3) Why Armor Class?



My stats are my AC (Dex x1, Wis x3, Cha x2, Con x1)
Saint Monk 1 / Battledancer 1 / Barbarian 4 / Fist of the Forest 1 / Cleric 3 / Dragon Warrior 2 / Mystic Wanderer 1
FotF Prereqs: BAB4, Great Fortitude , Improved Unarmed Strike , Power Attack, 8 total ranks
MW Prereqs: Iron Will, 2nd level divine spells, 20 total ranks
DW Prereqs: BAB6, Iron Will, Toughness, Weapon Focus(Greatsword), 6 total ranks

Result:
32 point buy Wis > Cha > Con & Dex
08, 14, 14, 08, 16+3, 16
AC: 32 (+2 Dexterity, +4 Insight, +4 Wisdom, +3 Charisma, +2 Constitution, +3 Sacred, + 4 Deflection)

[NickChaisson]

So, Heres what I got so far.

Below are a few options you could use depending on your tastes.

Troll-Blooded Fighter
This build abuses the troll-blooded feat (Dragon Magazine #319 p.61)
This gives you regeneration 1 but you are fatigued in sunlight (-2 str and dex and you cannot run/charge) and you take normal damage from fire/acid.

Class: Fighter level 6
Race:Human(might have to BS some greyhawk regional stuff)
Stats: Anything so long as you have a 13 in Dex, Wis and Int
Core Items: Full Plate, Tower Shield

Feats:
Toughness (+3 hp, Pre Req for Troll-Blooded)
Troll-Blooded (discussed above)
Combat Expertise (-5 attack bonus for +5 AC)
Imp.Combat Expertise (Complete Warrior)(as CE but only limited by your BaB)
Dodge (+1 to single target)
Eyes on the back of your head (Complete Warrior) (Flankers do not gain +2 to hit you)
You have two feats left over, A normal feat and a fighter feat.

Total AC: if your using your feats your total AC should be: 30 and you have regeneration if anything gets past it. No flight, but this is only ECL 6. There is plenty of room for growth/change.


Apostle of Peace
This build uses some feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds. They require you to be LG and adhere to some specific things. You should read up on the feats in the BOE to know your restrictions and such.

Class: Fighter Level 6
Race: Elf
Stats: Dex of 18 and Int of 13, anything else goes
Core Items: shield (the vow of poverty forbids magic items)

Feats:
Sacred Vow:Pre req for most feats in this build
Vow of Poverty: Give up material possession for bonuses
Vow of Non-violence: Cant cause lethal damage to living beings or kill them.
Vow of Peace: Same as above but a little more restricting.
Combat Expertise (-5 attack bonus for +5 AC)
Imp.Combat Expertise (Complete Warrior)(as CE but only limited by your BaB)
Dodge (+1 to single target)


Total AC:38 at level 6. you cant actually kill anything, but they cant really kill you either.

Anyway, hope those help you ^_^

[eggynack]

The OP plays in a 24hrs per day adventure day. So it is very similar to the constant combat adventure day.
Like, actual 24 hours, or 16 hours with 8 hours for sleep? Either way, that doesn't exactly preclude the use of buffs with sufficiently long durations.


At the OP's table, items characters are dependent upon can/will be lost/broken so a character cannot rely on items.

Fast healing is probably related to the constant adventuring day. (infinite out of combat healing would be necessary to keep the character alive)
If that's the case, this seems a lot less like a thing optimization challenge, and a lot more like a "Help me out with building this character for a campaign." It's a valid question, but not really the one being indicated.

[GhengisConrad]

If that's the case, this seems a lot less like a thing optimization challenge, and a lot more like a "Help me out with building this character for a campaign." It's a valid question, but not really the one being indicated.



1st Draft

Alright, so, I often ask for advice on a build, but tie everything up so that basically the build is what I've already made it.

I'm going to, instead, leave only the key ingredients, and the rest up to you guys!



Well, I mean, I am asking for help.

On my Drunken Stupors build (in sig) someone asked "I dont' really see waht you are trying to do here". Which blew my mind. My actions always seem clear and in a straight line... to myself.

I thought about it, lurked a bit, stumbled onto the iron chef thing, and thought "here is a format(ish) I can work with", and basically presented a op-challenge with the restrictions I place on myself.

This is basically what I have been working on the whole time I have been here.





1) Why the racial restrictions?
2) Why are Dragonborn in the not-humanoid looking when they are more humanoid looking than anthropomorphic lizards?
3) Why Armor Class?




1) Because in my mind, that's the challenge for myself, and the idea here is to, rather than putting my finished build and saying "what do you think?/help me make it better?" I'm putting in only the core pieces of my build and saying "what would you do (overall)?"

2) Because the book is never quite clear on how 'animally' you have to be "humanoids with animal characteristics" is sufficiently lean (for fluff) for my mind's eye to view for a anthro-bat to look like Ray Charles with sharp teeth and anthro-whale to look like John Goodman with blue skin (and weird teeth).

3) I'm just starting with Armor Class, basically because I wanted to get my feat feet wet with this 'style' of communication with the board, and was curious what kind of responses I'd get. I am pleased.

Some interesting stuff here in the thread.



or that you are playing in a game where there is combat always, never ending, where a caster hasn't even the time to teleport or extend ropetrick?

We learned long ago, as a table, that casters have few weaknesses... so we play to them, to the detriment of casters. I mean, really, in a world where magic is so overpowered, but counter-able in certain blanket ways... wouldn't things end up being set up that way naturally?

Is it so obsurd to consider that anyone persuing or fighting a spell caster wouldn't know how to handle rope trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201116), or that, as a rugged adventurer, you wouldn't have to pull a few all-nighters?

It makes the game a little more interesting (until I met shock trooper, now all our builds are the same. Don't know how we will DM around that one)

--------

You see, in my mind, even these 'i dont understand/like/approve of these restrictions' posts, make me think about the restrictions we place on ourselves.

[OldTrees1]

2) Because the book is never quite clear on how 'animally' you have to be "humanoids with animal characteristics" is sufficiently lean (for fluff) for my mind's eye to view for a anthro-bat to look like Ray Charles with sharp teeth and anthro-whale to look like John Goodman with blue skin (and weird teeth).

3) I'm just starting with Armor Class, basically because I wanted to get my feat feet wet with this 'style' of communication with the board, and was curious what kind of responses I'd get. I am pleased.


2) Huh. I think the anthropomorphic donkey was pretty clear. Dragonborn look like they originally did just with god granted scales over top. However this restriction is probably a result of your personal tastes and thus it is subjective.

3) Ah so this will be the first of several.



My stats are my AC (Dex x1, Wis x3, Cha x2, Con x1)

Saint Human
Monk(Chaos, Kyokushinkai Karate) 2 / Battle Dancer 1 / Cleric(Haela Brightaxe, War Domain) 3 / Mystic Wanderer 1/ Fighter 1 / BAB+2 / Dragon Warrior 2 / Fist of the Forest 1
Stats: Str 08, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 09, Wis 19, Cha 18
4th Str 08, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 09, Wis 20, Cha 18
8th Str 08, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 09, Wis 21, Cha 18
9th Str 08, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 09, Wis 23, Cha 18
11th Str 08, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 09, Wis 25, Cha 20
12th Str 08, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 09, Wis 26, Cha 20

Skill prerequisites: Concentration 3 ranks, Craft(Alchemy) 3 ranks, Diplomacy 8 ranks, Handle Animal 4 ranks, Knowledge(nature) 3 ranks, Knowledge(religion) 3 ranks, Perform 3 ranks, Profession (herbalist) 3 ranks , Survival 4 ranks

Feats: H means human, B means Bonus Feat
H Aberrant Blood
1B Improved Unarmed Strike
1B Endurance
1 Sacred Vow
2B Toughness
4B Weapon Focus(Greataxe)
3 Iron Will
6 Starspawn
7B Power Attack

9 Vow of Poverty
12 Great Fortitude

AC by character level: (ECL=Character Level + 2 Level Adjustment)
1 20=10+2dex+4insight +4wis
3 24=10+2dex+4insight+4wis+4cha
4 26=10+2dex+5insight+5wis+4cha
7 30=10+2dex+5insight+5wis+4cha+4sacred
9 41=10+2dex+6insight+6wis+4cha+4sacred +7armor+1deflection+1natural
11 45=10+2dex+7insight+7wis+5cha+5sacred +7armor+1deflection+1natural
12 47=10+2dex+8insight+8wis+5cha+5sacred +8armor+8deflection+1natural
13 58=10+2dex+8insight+8wis+5cha+5sacred +8armor+8deflection+1natural+3con

Gear: Nothing. Not even a buckler.

[Feint's End]

Well depending how optimized you want to get (I mean even with the restrictions you wrote down there is still some crazy broken ***** you can pull off) have you thought of a VOP Incarnate? They can get pretty much all they need from their melds and with VOP are entirely gear independent.

edit: If you want ex flight (I don't really see the point when having Melds which nobody can take from you but whatever) just go with Raptoran or Dragonborns (I know you don't want to take them but if it isn't your stick then don't).
If PF is in you could also go with Sylphs and take Airy Step and Air Mastery (is that the right name?) and get SU flying all day long.

[eggynack]

Well, I mean, I am asking for help.

On my Drunken Stupors build (in sig) someone asked "I dont' really see waht you are trying to do here". Which blew my mind. My actions always seem clear and in a straight line... to myself.

I thought about it, lurked a bit, stumbled onto the iron chef thing, and thought "here is a format(ish) I can work with", and basically presented a op-challenge with the restrictions I place on myself.

This is basically what I have been working on the whole time I have been here.
I guess. It just seems like you want a whole lot of stuff that's completely unrelated to AC. I'm also still not sure what level you want this at.


We learned long ago, as a table, that casters have few weaknesses... so we play to them, to the detriment of casters. I mean, really, in a world where magic is so overpowered, but counter-able in certain blanket ways... wouldn't things end up being set up that way naturally?

Is it so obsurd to consider that anyone persuing or fighting a spell caster wouldn't know how to handle rope trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201116), or that, as a rugged adventurer, you wouldn't have to pull a few all-nighters?
There really isn't much in the way of "certain blanket ways". Even that thread you linked gives apparently little in the way of finding the tiny invisible hole in the ceiling, and it's not an easy thing to accomplish. Besides that, buffs are often hours/level, or even all day. What if you were to run some sort of incantatrix? All of your AC boosting spells would run all day, for such is their nature. What about wild shape stuff? That ability is both nearly impossible to turn off (AMF just stalls it), and it lasts all day by level 8. This uses/day and buffing limitation is just illogical. If I were trying to boost AC, I'd probably start with dragon wild shape. Young adult shadow dragons get an AC of 29, and that's just the jumping off point. Tossing VoP or something onto that would get you pretty high up there. Also, 150 ft. (poor) flight speed.

[Emperor Tippy]

~What to optimize~

Let's try a pretty open ended concept:

Armor Class.

Get the armor class as high as possible.
That is generally how to optimize poorly. Outside of theoretical optimization (where the honest answer to how high can we get this number is pretty much always "arbitrarily high") you should be aiming for getting the minimum acceptable number for the minimum investment.

Take AC. To optimize that you go and crack open the monster manuals and look at your DM's NPC character sheets (if you have access to them). Now find pretty much the highest attack bonus in said sources. Now the highest AC that helps you is that number plus 19. Everything about that point is not optimal as it generally adds nothing.

[Irk]

Just putting it out there, good casters don't have weaknesses. With regard to your contest, let us approach this in a more practical manner. We will start with the troll-blooded feat. this will give you regeneration of every form of damage other than fire and acid. Warforged Juggernaut 2 gains immunity to nonlethal damage. The saint template for +2 LA grants immunity to acid. Incarnate construct is -2 LA and can be applied to war forged. The spell Mantle of the Fiery spirit permanently grants the fire subtype giving you immunity to fire.

here is the final result:
Saint Incarnate Construct Warforged Dungeoncrasher Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial monk 2/Pugilist Fighter 1/rogue 3/scout 2
Feats: toughness, Troll blooded, swift ambusher, improved skirmish, power attack

You can now reliably activate +6d6 damage on every attack along with power attack, and you have access to decisive strike, make your next feat snap kick to take advantage of it.

Pugilist + troll blooded + mantle of the fiery spirit + saint template grants you immunity to damage and fast healing 8 for no LA. Why bother with high AC?