Break My Class! (The Questellan)

[Ziegander]

So, I recently designed, and have been tweaking ever since, a class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326029) that is capable of learning as many (Ex) abilities as it wants. It can only use class level # of them at a time, but it may learn a potentially unlimited amount.

Do your worst char opers! What's the most powerful build you can come up with from level 1 to 20?

[Kazyan]

Definitely a candidate for Break That Homebrew. You can get a huge pile of immunities via Keeper at level 4, and a Runehound's scaling Vile Spew for direct damage at level 3. I'd have to look into this more thoroughly, but those are the ones that came to mind.

[Ziegander]

Definitely a candidate for Break That Homebrew. You can get a huge pile of immunities via Keeper at level 4, and a Runehound's scaling Vile Spew for direct damage at level 3. I'd have to look into this more thoroughly, but those are the ones that came to mind.

Keeper? What's that from?

[olentu]

So, since it seems like the class can get class features, you just grab the illithid savant's class features and go from there.

[Ziegander]

So, since it seems like the class can get class features, you just grab the illithid savant's class features and go from there.

I wish I had coffee in my mouth so I could have spit it all over my laptop. I think that about does it. Loads of spellcasting and access to (Sp) and (Su) class features and monster abilities right there for the picking, the Questellan just also needs to gain four tentacle attacks and learn the Mindflayer's Extract (Ex) ability and go to town...

Wow, so any other responses besides Illithid Savant?

[Gotterdammerung]

the class starts out broken. With a strict GM regulating what you can and can't copy it might have a chance of staying clear of cheeze. But Cherry picking Ex abilities is at the root of some of the strongest optimization and your class just gives it to the player without any fuss.

I suppose I should contribute to the topic tho. Check out Cadaver Golem from heroes of horror. It can give you Assimilate Flesh. This ability is very strong. For 1 single ex ability you get the ability to sew pieces of humanoid bodies to yourself. You can gain extraordinary and supernatural abilities and skill points with this abilitiy. And it doesnt have a limited use. It is slightly limited in that it only uses humanoid bodies (so any humanoid or monstrous humanoid body part). But humanoids have some pretty cool Su and Ex abilities if u dig for them. And you can rob class abilities.

So yeh, for 1 use of your class ability you get the abilities to steal an almost unlimited number of abilities.


Also, a lot of spell immunity is ex. If you take spell immunity twice you will end up with complete immunity to SR spells. Basically spell immunity usually tells you a couple of spells that bypass it. But if you take 2 different spell immunities using this class they will cover each others weaknesses.

[ryu]

Is planar shepherd planar atonement up for grabs? The ability to be completely immune the effects of wide swaths of planes can make for quite a few helpful effects and strategic choices. For example letting the party wizard make his base directly in any plane bumping constant elemental damage at a high rate for free. None with satisfyingly deadly elemental damage? Pretty sure genesis allow control of the plane's temperature as a choice at creation. Do you know the melting/freezing point of all physical materials? Well we can now safely test them and use for optimal advantage.

[Alent]

Gonna throw this one out here:
Marshal's Auras are (Ex). Motivate Intellect when learning (Ex) skills to learn way above your level.

[olentu]

I wish I had coffee in my mouth so I could have spit it all over my laptop. I think that about does it. Loads of spellcasting and access to (Sp) and (Su) class features and monster abilities right there for the picking, the Questellan just also needs to gain four tentacle attacks and learn the Mindflayer's Extract (Ex) ability and go to town...

Wow, so any other responses besides Illithid Savant?

Well, immunity to damage looks easy to grab. Deadened hide from the crimson scourge for immunity to nonlethal plus the appropriate regeneration and immunity to various elements. Or the immunity to bludgeoning and everything but bludgeoning thing.

Immunity to magic can be useful.

Maybe shambling mound immunity to electricity for free con depending on how it is worded.

Uncarnate to be incorporeal and then an AMF from an item or something.

Dusk giants for free HD.

I think someone mentioned assimilate flesh already.

Ooze split ability to copy yourself.

[Alent]

Well, immunity to damage looks easy to grab. Deadened hide from the crimson scourge for immunity to nonlethal plus the appropriate regeneration and immunity to various elements. Or the immunity to bludgeoning and everything but bludgeoning thing.

Immunity to magic can be useful.

Maybe shambling mound immunity to electricity for free con depending on how it is worded.

Uncarnate to be incorporeal and then an AMF from an item or something.

Dusk giants for free HD.

I think someone mentioned assimilate flesh already.

Ooze split ability to copy yourself.

Just in defense of the class, quite a few of these various things are body dependent, and it specifically says that it doesn't grant body features.

Properly breaking this is going to take some form of polymorph stacking.

[olentu]

Just in defense of the class, quite a few of these various things are body dependent, and it specifically says that it doesn't grant body features.

Properly breaking this is going to take some form of polymorph stacking.

I guess maybe uncarnate depending on how one reads that it is similar to shed body, but then again that rather depends on the DM's interpretation.


But anyway, it is possible that some salient divine abilities could be grabbed, depending on whether or not the class is specific enough to override the salient divine ability rules.

Edit: Heh, now that I think about it, I suppose the systems ban keeps the class from mimicking its own class feature.

[3WhiteFox3]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16821456#post16821456) has some helpful insights on the Questellan. It assumes 3.P, but a lot of the commentary applies. The consensus seems to be tier 2, due to having quite a few game breaking options. My opinion is tier 1 since the number of abilities that the Questellan can learn is unlimited and it's active abilities can be switched daily.

It's mainly things like hardness 20 at level 1 (adamantine animated object) damage immunity from regeneration cheese, blindsight, various immunities, etc...

The long and short of it is that Extraordinary abilities are powerful and anything that lets you learn all of them is probably going to be broken just on principle.

[Undead Pebble]

I have played around with a class idea that did something similar, and the conclusion that I reached was that the only way to make it remotely balanced is to make it 'forget' abilities that it hasn't seen for a while.

For arguments sake, lets say you only remember abilities for 2 weeks. This way, if some truly outrageous ability combination presents itself, the DM has the option of just letting time go by to balance things out again.

The flaw with this method of handling it, is that it means your power will fluctuate wildly, depending on what you fought recently. This could cause some party members to become unhappy. I do believe it to be more fun though, especially for an optimizer, since you get to re-optimize your class for each adventure.

[Ziegander]

Gonna throw this one out here:
Marshal's Auras are (Ex). Motivate Intellect when learning (Ex) skills to learn way above your level.

I would classify Auras as a "system," but the language there is not concrete at all, and other DMs could certainly rule otherwise. However, it wouldn't work like that anyway. The Questellan strictly cannot learn abilities of creatures whose HD exceed her class level.


Well, immunity to damage looks easy to grab. Deadened hide from the crimson scourge for immunity to nonlethal plus the appropriate regeneration and immunity to various elements.

That would require a 13 level investment. Not sure I'd call that "easy."


Or the immunity to bludgeoning and everything but bludgeoning thing.

Dunno what this is.


Immunity to magic can be useful.

Absolutely. Since it has been brought up that learning any two of these abilities can make you outright immune to magic I may add a new rule that says you can never use more than one of the same ability, even if that ability functions slightly different in each case.


Uncarnate to be incorporeal and then an AMF from an item or something.

(Ex) incorporeality. Nice.


Ooze split ability to copy yourself.

This was potentially the most game-breaking ability I'd found so far. Just beats the hell out of anything remotely similar any spellcaster can do, and it comes online at such a low level (6th or maybe even lower).

[olentu]

That would require a 13 level investment. Not sure I'd call that "easy."

Dunno what this is

Ah, that just involves combining some of the immunity to damage from types of weapons thing. Off hand I recall it ends up being something like the ocean giant and the half clay golem. Though as I recall it unfortunately only applies to weapon attacks.

But anyway, the regeneration method can be done better. Crimson scourge is not really the only way to get immunity to nonlethal damage, just the first that came to mind. You could probably use, say, warforged juggernaut or bone knight which ends up being 7ish I think.

If you really want to go crazy with the book diving I recall that immunity to nonlethal can be grabbed at level 1 or so with some monster from dragon magazine.


This was potentially the most game-breaking ability I'd found so far. Just beats the hell out of anything remotely similar any spellcaster can do, and it comes online at such a low level (6th or maybe even lower).

It is definitely quite powerful. Admittedly any character with good enough shape changing effects can get the ability but this class does come online rather faster then most of those.

[bekeleven]

I haven't seen mentioned:

Shaedling: Create any object.

Thoon Elder Brain / Sarkrith Thane / Etc: Extra Actions

Rukanyr: Just funny (Reflexive Sunder makes me chuckle)

Myconid Sovereign: Create/control infinite HD of zombies

Zodar: Good even without Su. Doubles your Strength, and immune to all attacks except those from bludgeoning weapons.

Dire Tortoise: Rich man's contingent celerity.

[Ziegander]

It would help to rein in the insane power level if I simply stated that the Questellan can only learn (Ex) abilities from creatures that share her creature type(s), but it seems like a massive blow to the class' fun factor as well. Good idea or bad idea?

[Somensjev]

It would help to rein in the insane power level if I simply stated that the Questellan can only learn (Ex) abilities from creatures that share her creature type(s), but it seems like a massive blow to the class' fun factor as well? Good idea or bad idea?

probably the beginning of a good idea, maybe each one has to pick a certain number of creature types (say 4, and one of those four must be their own) then they can only get ex abilities from creatures of that type? or something similar to that

[Chronos]

Bad idea, because that means that the class works completely differently for characters of different types. We already have spellcasters dumpster-diving oddly-typed races just for the sake of one spell (Alter Self); this would be so much worse.

The other problem with this class is that abilities vary tremendously not just in power, but in scope. Some classes have dozens of different abilities over their progression, while others have only one or two distinct abilities that are split up into dozens of sub-abilities. For instance, the Marshall's "Auras" is a single ability, so by taking that one ability, you can mimic nearly the entire class. And the Knight's challenge is likewise a single ability, that encompasses a large part of that class. But to mimic, say, a monk, you would need many more (at least four, for the Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, AC bonus, and Movement Speed, all of which are fairly significant).

[Gemini476]

Well then, let's see.

Zargon the Returner (Elder Evils) has 18HD and has

Horn (Ex):Zargon’s horn grants him regeneration 50 and
a +6 resistance bonus on saving throws. Removing the
horn requires a touch attack followed by a DC 39 Strength
check, and doing so makes Zargon lose its benefi ts.
The horn “regrows” Zargon after 1d4 days. The horn
is destroyed if it is dropped into the Eye of Zargon, far below in the lost city, within one day of Zargon’s death.
So have fun being pretty much immortal at that level. If you can grab it, I guess. The class is a bit vague on that.

Incidentally, both Zargon and his 10HD Whelps of Zargon have the ability to use slime to cause ability damage that turns people into Whelps of Zargon. The Whelps need to actually attack people with it, but Zargon has a 1/5 turns Swift Action 10d6 60ft cone of slime.
Have fun with that Wightocalypse.



Some fun stuff from the Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss:
The Lilitu has Item Use (Ex) at 14HD. It auto-succeeds at UMD checks for using magic items.
The Molydeux (19HD) can create a +1 dancing vorpal greataxe as an (Ex) ability. Not fantastic, but worth looking into.

FC2:
The White Abishai has Regeneration 1 (bypassed by Good) at 4HD. Yes.
The Ayperobos Swarm has 13HD. It has (Ex) Dominate Monster with a Fort save. Where it burrows into the body of the Monster in question. Yeeeaaaah.
The Kalabon has 1HD. If you have several Questellans with the Colony Mass (Ex) ability, they can Voltron together. Interesting, but not very useful.
A Nuperribo has 2HD and Blindsight 30. It's blind beyond that, but still. Blindsight at level 2.
Pain Devil (8HD) has Torturer's Eye (Ex). Use a move action to ignore DR for the rest of the turn.



I'm sure there are some other fun abilities hanging around. Have you considered the possibilities that templated creatures create? Those mostly just add to CR rather than HD, and letting someone get, say, +8 Turn Resistance from a Vampire Lord is the least of your problems. Because Symbiotic exists.

Also also, you can get a playable race of most types if you jump through enough hoops. Gotta love Sentry Ooze Skitterhaunt Hairy Spiders being playable Oozes.

[Slipperychicken]

It looks like this thing could just gate in a Sarrukh and then go Pun-Pun just by looking at it.

[Alent]

I would classify Auras as a "system," but the language there is not concrete at all, and other DMs could certainly rule otherwise. However, it wouldn't work like that anyway. The Questellan strictly cannot learn abilities of creatures whose HD exceed her class level.

Auras being a system makes sense, despite how few there are.

As to the "strictly cannot", I had a disconnect between that and the learning mechanism that describes the DC check as 12 + creature HD. I had it in my head that the class HD learning limit was for level ups. Misunderstanding cleared!


This was potentially the most game-breaking ability I'd found so far. Just beats the hell out of anything remotely similar any spellcaster can do, and it comes online at such a low level (6th or maybe even lower).

How would you split, tho'? I see that as being a biological property of slime. As much a part of the creature's body as wing based flight is for birds.

[Gemini476]

How would you split, tho'? I see that as being a biological property of slime. As much a part of the creature's body as wing based flight is for birds.


Extraordinary Expertise (Ex): A Questellan can learn and use any extraordinary ability of any creature (even if her biology would not ordinarily support such a thing).

Then again, I find this quote to be a bit confusing:

Learning extraordinary abilities never changes the Questellan's form (she does not spontaneously grow claws with which to Rake, for example).

Does that mean that she can not learn Rake (Ex), for instance, or does it just mean that when she learns Rake (Ex) she does not turn into Wolverine?
I'm going to assume the second, given the first quote regarding biological compatibility.


Also, this is basically Alter Self: The Class: Now With Less HD Limits!

[Novawurmson]

Honestly, the easiest way to balance it is probably with the lists of abilities Pathfinder's shapechanging line of spells, because they have express limits on the abilities they can copy. Still would probably clock in at tier 3, but might need some love in the early levels.

I also worked on a fairly unpopular PF Factotum update (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310124) which might have some wording from Cunning Brilliance you might like.

Cunning Brilliance - Significantly changed from original ability written in Dungeonscape p. 17

-The factotum first gains this ability at level 7, with improvement at level 11, level 15, and again level 19.
-At level 7, you can only choose one ability available to a class at first level, which functions as if you were a first level member of that class. Activating the ability is a standard action.
-At level 11, the abilities that you can choose and the level at which it functions are equal to your factotum level -8. You can now activate your cunning brilliance as a move action.
-At level 15, you choose two abilities, and the abilities that you can choose and the level at which they function are equal to your factotum level -6. You can now activate your cunning brilliance as a swift action.
-At level 19, you choose three abilities, and the abilities that you can choose and the level at which they function are equal to your factotum level -4. You can now activate your cunning brilliance as a free action.

-The number of times per day, cost, and action remain the same as the original ability.
-You cannot choose an ability from an archetype.
-You cannot choose an ability that grants an animal companion, cohort, familiar, or other creature.
-You cannot gain spellcasting or manifesting from this ability.
-Any choices you must make for any abilities you select are made at the beginning of day (e.g. the ranger’s Favored Enemy must be chosen at the beginning of the day, a specific valid rogue talent must be chosen, etc.).
-You face all restrictions normally made by the class feature, such as uses per day.
-Some abilities require other abilities to function. If you choose an ability dependent on another to function, its cost is reduced by three inspiration points if you activate it at the same time as its prerequisite.
-Abilities gained through cunning brilliance may not be used to qualify for feats, prestige classes, or other character choices (except for other valid cunning brilliance choices, as noted above).
-Abilities that require an ability that cannot be taken cannot be taken (for example, the factotum cannot take the Summoner shield ally class feature, because the factotum cannot gain an eidolon through cunning brilliance).
-You cannot take a factotum class feature through cunning brilliance.
-You cannot take any ability that is not explicitly called out at extraordinary (e.g. the rogue’s sneak attack).
-Some classes have decisions or pools of class features. These include the oracle’s curse and mystery, the cavalier’s order, the sorcerer’s bloodline, the cleric’s domains, and the wizard’s arcane school. These abilities require such an extreme level of dedication to an art or such important life-events that even the most flexible of factotums will find nearly impossible to replicate without special training and may not be chosen with cunning brilliance.

Also, PF class features that qualified:

Class features for Cunning Brilliance

Alchemist
-Brew Potion (1)
-Throw Anything (1)
-Discoveries (2*)
-Poison Resistance (2)
-Poison Use (2)
-Swift Alchemy (3)
-Swift Poisoning (6)

Barbarian:
-Fast movement (1)
-Rage (1)
-Uncanny dodge (2)
-Rage power (2*, requires Rage)
-Trap sense (3)
-Improved uncanny dodge (5, requires uncanny dodge)
-Damage reduction (7)
-Greater rage (11, requires Rage)
-Indomitable will (14, requires Rage)

Bard:
-Bardic Knowledge (1)
-Versatile Performance (2)
-Well Versed (2)
-Lore Master (5)
-Jack of All Trades (10)

Cavalier:
-Challenge (1)
-Tactician (1)
-Cavalier’s Charge (3)
-Expert Trainer (4)
-Banner (5)
-Greater Tactician (9, requires tactician)
-Mighty Charge (11)
-Demanding Challenge (12, requires challeng)
-Greater Banner (14, requires banner)

Cleric:
-Aura (1)

Druid:
-Nature Sense (1)
-Wild Empathy (1)
-Woodland Stride (2)
-Trackless Step (3)
-Resist Nature’s Lore (4)
-Venom Immunity (9)
-Timeless Body (15)

Fighter:
-Bravery (2)
-Armor Training (3)
-Weapon Training (5)

Gunslinger:
-Grit (1)
-Deeds (1*)
-Nimble (2)
-Gun Training (5)

Inquisitor:
-Monster Lore (1)
-Cunning Initiative (2)
-Track (2)
-Solo Tactics (3)
-Stalwart (11)
-Exploit Weakness (14)

Magus:
-Spell Combat (1)
-Magus Arcana (3*)
-Medium Armor (7)
-Improved Spell Combat (8, require spell combat)
-Fighter Training (10)
-Heavy Armor (13, requires medium armor)
-Greater Spell Combat (14, requires improved spell combat and spell combat)
-Counterstrike (16)

Monk:
-AC Bonus (1)
-Flurry (1)
-Stunning Fist (1)
-Evasion (2)
-Fast Movement (3)
-Maneuver Training (3)
-Still Mind (3)
-Slow Fall (4)
-High Jump (5)
-Purity of Body (5)
-Improved Evasion (9, requires evasion)
-Diamond Soul (15)

Ninja:
-Ninja Trick (2*)
-No Trace (3)
-Uncanny Dodge (4)
-Light Steps (6)
-Improved Uncanny Dodge (8, requires uncanny dodge)
-Master Tricks (10*)

Oracle:
-None

Paladin/Antipaladin:
-Aura of Good/Aura of Evil (1)
-Divine Health/Plague Bearer (3)

Ranger:
-Favored Enemy (1*)
-Track (1)
-Wild Empathy (1)
-Combat Style (2*)
-Favored Terrain (3*)
-Hunter’s Bond (cannot choose animal companion, requires favored enemy)
-Woodland Stride (7)
-Swift Tracker (8)
-Evasion (9)
-Quarry (11)
-Camouflage (12, requires favored terrain)
-Improved Evasion (16, requires evasion)

Rogue:
-Evasion (2)
-Talents (2*)
-Trap Sense (3)
-Uncanny Dodge (4)
-Improved Uncanny Dodge (8, requires uncanny dodge)
-Advanced Talents (10*)

Samurai:
-Challenge (1)
-Resolve (1)
-Weapon Expertise (3)
-Mounted Archer (4)
-Banner (5)
-Greater Resolve (9, requires resolve)
-Honorable Stand (11)
-Greater Banner (14, requires banner)

Sorcerer:
-None

Summoner:
-None

Witch:
-Hex (1*)
-Major Hex (10*)

Wizard:
-None

[RegalKain]

It would help to rein in the insane power level if I simply stated that the Questellan can only learn (Ex) abilities from creatures that share her creature type(s), but it seems like a massive blow to the class' fun factor as well. Good idea or bad idea?

Uhhh sorry if this is really unhelpful, as I've stated before (I think I'm gonna signature it.) I'm not NEARLY as adept and good at game breaking and the subtle mechanics as many GITP people are that said....

Instead of allowing him/her to get any Ex ability from the start, why not make it a lot like say a Ranger's favored enemy? They get 5 "favored enemies" total, or creature types for that matter, and they can pick their Ex abilities from those creature types? To further "limit" this, make it so you get an Ex ability at 1st level, 2nd level and every 2 levels there after. (4/6/8//10/12/14/16/18/20) Or some other progression that makes sense to you.
IE: 1st level they pick Constructs (Just throwing these out there, work with me.) These means from levels 1-4 they can pick Construct Exs and only from a Construct race/class/monster.
5th level they pick oozes, now until level 10 they can take any Construct or Ooze Ex they want (That they still qualify for of course.)
So on and so forth down the list, with level 20 being their big one, and they get a single (Non-epic) Ex from the one they pick.

If you wanted to take the time, and read some more GITP comments etc, you could actually make a list, a lot like the Binder has, make a list of Creature types they are ALLOWED to choose from each time they gain a new "type" to pick from. This would make it so you can scale down the craziness of the class itself.

[Ziegander]

How would you split, tho'? I see that as being a biological property of slime. As much a part of the creature's body as wing based flight is for birds.

Well, for example, the Aboleth's Slime (Ex) ability references a tentacle attack. Since the Questellan probably doesn't normally have a tentacle attack, she can't use it. However, the Split (Ex) ability does not reference any odd biological make up to work. If the Questellan gets it, it would simply read, "Slashing and piercing weapons and electricity attacks deal no damage to a Questellan. Instead she splits into two identical Questellans, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A Questellan with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 it points." Which totally works without needing to alter her biology, and is totally broken.


that mean that she can not learn Rake (Ex), for instance, or does it just mean that when she learns Rake (Ex) she does not turn into Wolverine?
I'm going to assume the second, given the first quote regarding biological compatibility.

Indeed, you are correct. She could learn Rake (Ex), it simply wouldn't automatically grant her the claws with which to use it. If she had claws, or could get them, great.


Also, this is basically Alter Self: The Class: Now With Less HD Limits!

Well, that is if I add in the creature type clause. I'm not sure I want to, because then a lot of fun, not broken at all, things go sadly out the window.


Honestly, the easiest way to balance it is probably with the lists of abilities Pathfinder's shapechanging line of spells, because they have express limits on the abilities they can copy. Still would probably clock in at tier 3, but might need some love in the early levels.

I also worked on a fairly unpopular PF Factotum update (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310124) which might have some wording from Cunning Brilliance you might like.

Cunning Brilliance - Significantly changed from original ability written in Dungeonscape p. 17

-The factotum first gains this ability at level 7, with improvement at level 11, level 15, and again level 19.
-At level 7, you can only choose one ability available to a class at first level, which functions as if you were a first level member of that class. Activating the ability is a standard action.
-At level 11, the abilities that you can choose and the level at which it functions are equal to your factotum level -8. You can now activate your cunning brilliance as a move action.
-At level 15, you choose two abilities, and the abilities that you can choose and the level at which they function are equal to your factotum level -6. You can now activate your cunning brilliance as a swift action.
-At level 19, you choose three abilities, and the abilities that you can choose and the level at which they function are equal to your factotum level -4. You can now activate your cunning brilliance as a free action.

-The number of times per day, cost, and action remain the same as the original ability.
-You cannot choose an ability from an archetype.
-You cannot choose an ability that grants an animal companion, cohort, familiar, or other creature.
-You cannot gain spellcasting or manifesting from this ability.
-Any choices you must make for any abilities you select are made at the beginning of day (e.g. the ranger’s Favored Enemy must be chosen at the beginning of the day, a specific valid rogue talent must be chosen, etc.).
-You face all restrictions normally made by the class feature, such as uses per day.
-Some abilities require other abilities to function. If you choose an ability dependent on another to function, its cost is reduced by three inspiration points if you activate it at the same time as its prerequisite.
-Abilities gained through cunning brilliance may not be used to qualify for feats, prestige classes, or other character choices (except for other valid cunning brilliance choices, as noted above).
-Abilities that require an ability that cannot be taken cannot be taken (for example, the factotum cannot take the Summoner shield ally class feature, because the factotum cannot gain an eidolon through cunning brilliance).
-You cannot take a factotum class feature through cunning brilliance.
-You cannot take any ability that is not explicitly called out at extraordinary (e.g. the rogue’s sneak attack).
-Some classes have decisions or pools of class features. These include the oracle’s curse and mystery, the cavalier’s order, the sorcerer’s bloodline, the cleric’s domains, and the wizard’s arcane school. These abilities require such an extreme level of dedication to an art or such important life-events that even the most flexible of factotums will find nearly impossible to replicate without special training and may not be chosen with cunning brilliance.

Also, PF class features that qualified:

Class features for Cunning Brilliance

Alchemist
-Brew Potion (1)
-Throw Anything (1)
-Discoveries (2*)
-Poison Resistance (2)
-Poison Use (2)
-Swift Alchemy (3)
-Swift Poisoning (6)

Barbarian:
-Fast movement (1)
-Rage (1)
-Uncanny dodge (2)
-Rage power (2*, requires Rage)
-Trap sense (3)
-Improved uncanny dodge (5, requires uncanny dodge)
-Damage reduction (7)
-Greater rage (11, requires Rage)
-Indomitable will (14, requires Rage)

Bard:
-Bardic Knowledge (1)
-Versatile Performance (2)
-Well Versed (2)
-Lore Master (5)
-Jack of All Trades (10)

Cavalier:
-Challenge (1)
-Tactician (1)
-Cavalier’s Charge (3)
-Expert Trainer (4)
-Banner (5)
-Greater Tactician (9, requires tactician)
-Mighty Charge (11)
-Demanding Challenge (12, requires challeng)
-Greater Banner (14, requires banner)

Cleric:
-Aura (1)

Druid:
-Nature Sense (1)
-Wild Empathy (1)
-Woodland Stride (2)
-Trackless Step (3)
-Resist Nature’s Lore (4)
-Venom Immunity (9)
-Timeless Body (15)

Fighter:
-Bravery (2)
-Armor Training (3)
-Weapon Training (5)

Gunslinger:
-Grit (1)
-Deeds (1*)
-Nimble (2)
-Gun Training (5)

Inquisitor:
-Monster Lore (1)
-Cunning Initiative (2)
-Track (2)
-Solo Tactics (3)
-Stalwart (11)
-Exploit Weakness (14)

Magus:
-Spell Combat (1)
-Magus Arcana (3*)
-Medium Armor (7)
-Improved Spell Combat (8, require spell combat)
-Fighter Training (10)
-Heavy Armor (13, requires medium armor)
-Greater Spell Combat (14, requires improved spell combat and spell combat)
-Counterstrike (16)

Monk:
-AC Bonus (1)
-Flurry (1)
-Stunning Fist (1)
-Evasion (2)
-Fast Movement (3)
-Maneuver Training (3)
-Still Mind (3)
-Slow Fall (4)
-High Jump (5)
-Purity of Body (5)
-Improved Evasion (9, requires evasion)
-Diamond Soul (15)

Ninja:
-Ninja Trick (2*)
-No Trace (3)
-Uncanny Dodge (4)
-Light Steps (6)
-Improved Uncanny Dodge (8, requires uncanny dodge)
-Master Tricks (10*)

Oracle:
-None

Paladin/Antipaladin:
-Aura of Good/Aura of Evil (1)
-Divine Health/Plague Bearer (3)

Ranger:
-Favored Enemy (1*)
-Track (1)
-Wild Empathy (1)
-Combat Style (2*)
-Favored Terrain (3*)
-Hunter’s Bond (cannot choose animal companion, requires favored enemy)
-Woodland Stride (7)
-Swift Tracker (8)
-Evasion (9)
-Quarry (11)
-Camouflage (12, requires favored terrain)
-Improved Evasion (16, requires evasion)

Rogue:
-Evasion (2)
-Talents (2*)
-Trap Sense (3)
-Uncanny Dodge (4)
-Improved Uncanny Dodge (8, requires uncanny dodge)
-Advanced Talents (10*)

Samurai:
-Challenge (1)
-Resolve (1)
-Weapon Expertise (3)
-Mounted Archer (4)
-Banner (5)
-Greater Resolve (9, requires resolve)
-Honorable Stand (11)
-Greater Banner (14, requires banner)

Sorcerer:
-None

Summoner:
-None

Witch:
-Hex (1*)
-Major Hex (10*)

Wizard:
-None


Uhhh sorry if this is really unhelpful, as I've stated before (I think I'm gonna signature it.) I'm not NEARLY as adept and good at game breaking and the subtle mechanics as many GITP people are that said....

Instead of allowing him/her to get any Ex ability from the start, why not make it a lot like say a Ranger's favored enemy? They get 5 "favored enemies" total, or creature types for that matter, and they can pick their Ex abilities from those creature types? To further "limit" this, make it so you get an Ex ability at 1st level, 2nd level and every 2 levels there after. (4/6/8//10/12/14/16/18/20) Or some other progression that makes sense to you.
IE: 1st level they pick Constructs (Just throwing these out there, work with me.) These means from levels 1-4 they can pick Construct Exs and only from a Construct race/class/monster.
5th level they pick oozes, now until level 10 they can take any Construct or Ooze Ex they want (That they still qualify for of course.)
So on and so forth down the list, with level 20 being their big one, and they get a single (Non-epic) Ex from the one they pick.

If you wanted to take the time, and read some more GITP comments etc, you could actually make a list, a lot like the Binder has, make a list of Creature types they are ALLOWED to choose from each time they gain a new "type" to pick from. This would make it so you can scale down the craziness of the class itself.

Thank you for the input, guys, but I just don't want to impose such stringent limitations on the class. I am fully aware it's a Tier 1 gamechanger, and that's precisely what I want it to be.

[Seerow]

Well, that is if I add in the creature type clause. I'm not sure I want to, because then a lot of fun, not broken at all, things go sadly out the window.



Why not make the creature types you can grab increase as you level? It should stop some of the low level exploitation, while allowing full caster level ridiculousness by 16-20.


Make a list of all creature types, separate them out by which ones have the most exploitative abilities (ideally separating into 3-4 tiers).

At level 1 you get your own type + 1-2 others. Gain additional ones from the first tier until level 5-7. At that point, gain access to the new tier, continue gaining types from these (or earlier) tiers until 10-13. Now you unlock another tier. Continue gaining either until 15 or 20 (depending on if there was 3 or 4 tiers, if there's 4 the last one unlocks at 15).

By level 20 you should unlock all of them. But at level 1 you should mostly have relatively harmless abilities, maybe a couple of early status immunities or sensory forms, but nothing like immunity to all damage and splitting.



Thank you for the input, guys, but I just don't want to impose such stringent limitations on the class. I am fully aware it's a Tier 1 gamechanger, and that's precisely what I want it to be.


A gamechanger, and broken from level 1 because hit dice are an awful representation of power are two very different things. I agree with not wanting to be limited to only 4-5 types by level 20, but at level 1-5 at least you need some more restrictions if you want the class to work at all.

[Ziegander]

Why not make the creature types you can grab increase as you level? It should stop some of the low level exploitation, while allowing full caster level ridiculousness by 16-20.


Make a list of all creature types, separate them out by which ones have the most exploitative abilities (ideally separating into 3-4 tiers).

At level 1 you get your own type + 1-2 others. Gain additional ones from the first tier until level 5-7. At that point, gain access to the new tier, continue gaining types from these (or earlier) tiers until 10-13. Now you unlock another tier. Continue gaining either until 15 or 20 (depending on if there was 3 or 4 tiers, if there's 4 the last one unlocks at 15).

This is what I've been thinking of doing, I just don't know how much help it will be. A Warforged could take the first level of Questellan and instantly gain huge Hardness.

[Seerow]

This is what I've been thinking of doing, I just don't know how much help it will be. A Warforged could take the first level of Questellan and instantly gain huge Hardness.

I'm pretty sure Living Construct is a separate type from Construct. It's why Warforged don't get all of the fun construct immunities.

But yes, there are certainly ways to break it regardless, but it will be harder. Someone picking an exotic race just to take advantage of an ability from a homebrew class is most likely either playing in a high power game where that sort of thing is the norm, or going to get a book thrown at him for asking.

[Gemini476]

I'm pretty sure Living Construct is a separate type from Construct. It's why Warforged don't get all of the fun construct immunities.

But yes, there are certainly ways to break it regardless, but it will be harder. Someone picking an exotic race just to take advantage of an ability from a homebrew class is most likely either playing in a high power game where that sort of thing is the norm, or going to get a book thrown at him for asking.

Nope, Warforged are Construct(Living Construct). Subtypes change the type sometimes.

Also, grabbing stuff from classes is not as big an issue as grabbing stuff from monsters, since the second one often gives access to abilities that PCs really weren't meant to have. Grabbing stuff from classes is still an issue, since you can steal nearly everything that a class has (Knock writ large, basically; what happens if a Questellan takes the Fighter's Bonus Feats?)

[Ziegander]

I'm pretty sure Living Construct is a separate type from Construct. It's why Warforged don't get all of the fun construct immunities.

Nah, I double-checked. There are Construct type with the Living Construct subtype (I had thought they were Humanoid (Living Construct), but I was wrong).


But yes, there are certainly ways to break it regardless, but it will be harder. Someone picking an exotic race just to take advantage of an ability from a homebrew class is most likely either playing in a high power game where that sort of thing is the norm, or going to get a book thrown at him for asking.

I'm just worried about choking the fun out of the class, but I'll see about some more sensible type-based restrictions.

[FMArthur]

I'm gonna be the odd man out and say that this ability is relatively balanced. It CAN BECOME insane but it's basically 90% given by the DM except for the first level free selection (which I think should probably just require learning like the rest). And the DM doesn't often need to specifically target the character as a thing to keep under strict anti-fun control; most normal selection of enemies and NPCs at appropriate CR don't break it but still give some fun toys.

I would only have a couple gripes allowing it in a game: the chassis is too good, and the fluff will be trying to pass off totally impossible abilities as learned skills.
8 + int skill points is too much for a class with all skills as class skills, and I think both are unnecessary. It steps on the toes of other skillmonkey classes too hard.
d8 hit dice, full BAB and maximum saves are not necessary for a really versatile class who will get plenty of offense and defense options from its abilities. It's going to be rolling in immunities and special attacks.
The fluff just flat-out doesn't work. The main ability really needs to be supernatural to make any sense; the abilities it learns are extraordinary for the beings they come from but are frequently not within the range of possibility for a very smart person to 'learn' and replicate nonmagically.

[Ziegander]

I'm gonna be the odd man out and say that this ability is relatively balanced. It CAN BECOME insane but it's basically 90% given by the DM except for the first level free selection (which I think should probably just require learning like the rest). And the DM doesn't often need to specifically target the character as a thing to keep under strict anti-fun control; most normal selection of enemies and NPCs at appropriate CR don't break it but still give some fun toys.

I hate to go against one of my defenders, but you aren't reading it correctly. It gets a free (Ex) ability at every class level.


8 + int skill points is too much for a class with all skills as class skills, and I think both are unnecessary. It steps on the toes of other skillmonkey classes too hard.

Possibly, and 6 skill points probably wouldn't be a huge loss.


d8 hit dice, full BAB and maximum saves are not necessary for a really versatile class who will get plenty of offense and defense options from its abilities. It's going to be rolling in immunities and special attacks.

I have considered dropping to medium BAB, it seems to make more sense just thematically, but I want players to be able to build weirdo martial types out of this if they want to using stuff like the Ettin's Superior Two-Weapon Fighting and a War Troll's Dazing Blow ability. Sure, they still can do that with medium BAB, but they won't be as effective.

It also doesn't get all good saves, it gets all medium saves.


The fluff just flat-out doesn't work. The main ability really needs to be supernatural to make any sense; the abilities it learns are extraordinary for the beings they come from but are frequently not within the range of possibility for a very smart person to 'learn' and replicate nonmagically.[/list]

While you are probably correct in stating that its fluff can't work, the ability also can't be (Su), because then all her use of (Ex) abilities would fall off in an anti-magic field or something which just doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, @Seerow, I went ahead and revised the rules again, restricting it to just a few creature types throughout the levels and then opening it up to all creature types at 20th. I also revised the "learning new (Ex) abilities" rules to include a gold cost and a time cost (in addition to the XP cost).