[PF] How to arrest PCs?

[Julix]

I'm considering having lawful bounty hunters attempt to catch criminal PC's alive to create satisfying consequences for breaking the law that are threatening and exciting and non-game-ending.

I need optimization advice for building that bounty hunter team to be really effective.

I'm looking for ways to get the players unconscious, asleep, knocked out, or beaten down with non-lethal damage, and tied up. What are my options as GM for achieving that in pathfinder?

[Julix]

There's the combat feat sap adep (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat), which was mentioned in the forum before, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226627); and sap master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat). Seems like it could be ideal for my purposes.
A sling-shooting halfling rogue with those abilities could use that for massive damage in the first round, and with the Swift as Shadows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/halfling#TOC-Alternate-Racial-Traits) trait he could be sniping the players for a few rounds. --- However the master part of things requires 3d6 of sneak damage abilities. Is it worth multi-classing into other classes that have sneak attack (like 1 level of alchemist->Vivisectionist) to get it faster?


Possible builds?

Example:
1st lvl Rogue: SA+1d6. Feat: Sap adept
2nd lvl Vivisectionist: Sa+1d6
3rd lvl Assassin: SA+1d6. Feat: Sap Master

Downside: feats shortage for other stuff, BAB+0(!!!). -- also needs to fire merciful bullets at 40 gold each in order to even apply sneak attack.

Upside: The bullets apply 1d6 extra non-lethal damage for a total of ???

1d3 (small sling) + 1d6 (merciful ammo) + 3d6 normal sneak + 3 (sap adept) + [3d6 (sap master) - flat footed only] => 6 [or 9] to 30 [48] dmg.

This dmg range 6-48 [depending on circumstances and luck] makes it quite chancy but most 3rd level characters have at least a good chance of getting taken out in a single hit.

Pure rogue
1st lvl - Sneak attack +1d6. Feat: Bludgeoner.
2nd lvl - Rogue talent-> Combat trick -> Sap Adep.
3rd lvl - Sneak attack +2d6 Feat: ????
4th lvl - Rogue talent -> ????
5th lvl - Sneak attack +3d6 Feat: Sap master

Downside: high level, thus can't add to many others bounty hunters at the same time if I want to keep it fair and party is low level.

Upsides BAB +3, quite high HP, room for other feats (but I don't know yet what I'd want those to be).

Any other ideas how to get a long range KO by non-lethal damage build?


EDIT: Just found out Bounty Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/tripod-machine/bounty-hunter#TOC-Worth-More-Alive-Ex-)is actually a class! And they have a 2nd level ability called Worth More Alive (Ex) which makes the sneak damage count as non-lethal. The only lethal part then is the 1d3 (or d4 for normal sized) from the sling shot.

Pure Bounty Hunter

1st lvl: SA+1d6, Feat: Sap Adept
2nd lvl: Worth More Alive (Ex)

BAB+2, 1d3(lethal)+1d6(non-lethal SA)+1 (non-lethal Sap Adept bonus)=3-10 dmg almost 1/3 of it lethal - so healing prisoners becomes a thing, not necessarily a problem. Could make for good RP, and no one dies.

Upside: good bab, few levels (so doesn't boost CR as much)
Downside: low damage


Hybrid Bounty Hunter with any
1st and second Bounty hunter as above
3rd Bounty Hunter for SA+2d6 feat: anything.
4th any SA granting class for SA+3d6. Retrain feat to Sap master.

BAB+3, 5-24 [8-42 when flat footed enemy]

[Gemini476]

What levels are the PCs? What builds do they have?

Also, you can't qualify for Assassin before level 5. Just FYI. Pathfinder changed how class skills work, so your maximum ranks are equal to your level. Having a skill as a class skill just means that you get a +3 bonus to skill checks.

[Julix]

No assassin <5th level? true! - I actually knew that and then searched for something to replace it with and then forgot to when I couldn't find anything. Apparently Bounty Hunter works. :-)

Let's say the scenario involves chaotic PC career criminals, and I want to have the environment react to them with gradual pressure increase, so the bounty hunters could possibly jail them for a break-out style situation - then some others try their luck getting the criminals - and down the road, some levels later, a "so we meet again" scene, but that matters little now, as I'm just preparing for the first run-in with the law.

In my particular case they're the goblins from We Be Goblins after running through that adventure. -- PCs are currently at the brink of reaching lvl 2 and still away from civilization (so they might get as far as 3 or even 4); but they're chaotic goblins so once they hit a normal town it won't take long for them to get into trouble -- and I want to have the world ready to react to them when that time inevitably comes.

However, being unpredictable as they are they might stumble into other adventures first (I'm giving them a lot of freedom in my simulationalist sandbox) -- so ideally I want to be able to scale the pressure up as necessary anywhere from 1-6. --- Also the number of players could vary from 4-7, though I've never played with more than 5 sofar.

EDIT: I was thinking I don't really want to prepare specifically with any group of PC's in mind, as I wanted to avoid metagaming, as I can always recycle the characters later if they don't work too well... --- but at least the size of the goblins is something the town could know when hiring the bounty hunters... so they could have a large grappling animal, or party member - or even just medium would suffice I guess.

I'd really love to come up with a whole bunch of characters that work for this purpose (with scaling levels so they can be used at an earlier or later version) - and maybe they could be useful to other GMs as well... I could build like a little resource book with Bounty Hunter NPCs... :-D

What won't one do to procrastinate homework?

Edit2 But as I said for now I only need a few options for the first encounter if it happens. A witch with slumber hex could work, though they never struck me as particularly lawful. Grappling monk with pin/tie-up combo would be a sweet option to have

[Bullet06320]

nets and lasso's for trying to catch them, those are 2 of my go to items for bounty hunters that want to catch them alive for the reward

of course at this low level, one hold person, or hold monster in this case will do the trick too. sleep would be effective at this level

[Julix]

I think save-or-lose spells would be more frustrating than physical abilities that are essentially the same thing other way around.

For a save the players roll against a DC and if they fail then they fall asleep (and get tied up) --- while the enemy lasso thrower has to beat their AC or CMD or what ever. In the first case they failed in the second the enemy succeeded -- while the outcome is the same I feel like the second would be less frustrating to most players. Just a hunch though.

How does the lasso (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/lasso)work in pathfinder??

Can I tie up their feet with a whip while riding by on a mount and drag them behind me? :D

The net (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/net) doesn't say anything about that at all, but the Snag Net (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/net-snag) mentions tripping... -- What would I roll to attempt to drag a person behind my mount?


Edit:also just found this trap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/punji-stake-trap) - and bear traps or pits could be fun... --- what ways are there for characters to access making those kinds of traps? Skill: Craft (Traps) + 250-1500 gp per CR of the trap. However adding (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps#TOC-Designing-a-Trap)a magical "alarm" to a trap is free, if you have a caster that can do that. -- NPC bounty hunter party chilling next to the road until they hear alarm go off, then head on over and sneak sap-shoot one out, then one hops on mount and catches run-aways with net and a fast grapple guy runs around tieing up loose ends ;-)

[Bullet06320]

i'm not very familiar with PF rules, but if you have the trailing rope of the net or lasso tied to the saddle of a horse, after a successful attack, the pcs are entangled, just have your mount start moving with them, you would use the mounts strength score to drag them(opposed str check there), they would be grappled, and now prone, apply all penalties for both conditions, then I would give them an automatic 1d6 of non lethal dmg per 10 feet dragged. similar to falling rules but with non lethal dmg, especially if u want to capture them alive.
that works great if the bounty hunters have the mounted combat feat
I made a cowboy character once that used a lasso and hand crossbow, lol

a rope of entanglement would also work

[Studoku]

Is your goal here to arrest the PCs or to provide an encounter where they avoid being arrested?

[SinsI]

Can't the bountyhunters be casters, or at least have enough UMD skills to activate a Wand of Sleep?

[Bom Ferro]

Okay...let's try this:

1)Use a human penitent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-penitent) Cavalier (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier)

2)Huntmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/huntmaster) Archetype provides proficiency with net, and an array of falcons/dogs to track/trip/blind PCs; in the worst case, they are replacable fodder that may soak spells/attacks in a combat encounter with the PCs.

3)Penitents can tie up=> make PC's helpless rather quickly, thanks to their "expert captor" ability.

A penitent with a rope dart, Hamatula Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hamatula-strike-combat) and Greater Grapple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-grapple-combat---final) can attack+grapple as standard action, pulling the impaled/grappled target next to himself as part of the grapple, then use his move action to tie the target up.

[Heliomance]

It's not PF, but if you're okay with porting 3.5 content, the BoED has the Justiciar, which is a PrC all about being a bring 'em back alive guy.

[Slipperychicken]

I mean, if it's to show the PCs consequences for their actions, I'd want to make it an exceptionally difficult fight. Like put the bounty hunters high enough level that the PCs would be a CR-appropriate encounter for them.

As for Cavaliers, a knight of the blue rose can inflict nonlethal damage without taking a penalty. It's requirement to "offer terms" could be fluffed more like "POLICE, GET ON THE GROUND, NOW!".


nets and lasso's for trying to catch them, those are 2 of my go to items for bounty hunters that want to catch them alive for the reward


Net the spellcasters ASAP. They'll need to make concentration checks to cast, and that's very good for you.

You'll also want debuffs like Web or ray of exhaustion. Every mark who escapes means money (and food, groceries, and rent) lost.

[BWR]

Blaster caster with Merciful spell if you want something suboptimal. Wrestling experts with Silence Enlarge Person on them to grapple those annoying casters.

[Tragak]

If you think that the PCs getting arrested would be a cool direction for the story, couldn't you just ask the players if they agree that the PCs getting arrested would be a cool direction for the story?

[Slipperychicken]

If you think that the PCs getting arrested would be a cool direction for the story, couldn't you just ask the players if they agree that the PCs getting arrested would be a cool direction for the story?

I feel like that greatly cheapens the experience from a gameplay/challenge perspective. It could be very interesting to see whether the PCs resist arrest, and their manner of doing so can have significant implications (for example, you're getting a much heftier sentence if you kill cops while resisting arrest, and law enforcement isn't going to do you any favors if you murder their buddies, while politeness and compliance might earn you a lighter sentence, but also make criminals despise you as a "goody two-shoes").

[Tragak]

I feel like that greatly cheapens the experience from a gameplay/challenge perspective. It could be very interesting to see whether the PCs resist arrest, and their manner of doing so can have significant implications (for example, you're getting a much heftier sentence if you kill cops while resisting arrest, and law enforcement isn't going to do you any favors if you murder their buddies, while politeness and compliance might earn you a lighter sentence, but also make criminals despise you as a "goody two-shoes"). Everybody has challenges that they would enjoy playing out in a game, and challenges that they wouldn't enjoy playing out in the same game.

If getting in trouble for violently resisting arrest, followed by needing to escape, is the kind of challenge that the players would enjoy (and I know that I would), then you didn't lose anything by confirming it. If it's not the kind of challenge that they would enjoy playing out, why not let them play out a challenge that they would enjoy more?

They're taking time out of their real lives to play something because they think it will be fun, and if the only compensation that they're getting is the game itself, then why risk giving them a boring challenge instead a fun one?

If I was one of the players in this game, I would think that would be a fun challenge to play out. Player input into making death/failure scenes cooler does not remove death/failure scenes from the game, it makes the players more invested in making the cool thing happen, not less invested.

[Slipperychicken]

Everybody has challenges that they would enjoy playing out in a game, and challenges that they wouldn't enjoy playing out in the same game.


Right. I thought you meant something like: "hay guys, you want your PCs to go to jail?" Then everyone says yes and you fiat them into jail.

[Haldir]

Clerics, Wizards and Save or Sucks, oh my!

[Squirrel_Dude]

A random item you may want your NPC bounty hunters to have carrying on them is the Manacles of Cooperation (Advanced Players Guide: Wondrous Items (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/magicItems/wondrousItems.html)). Depending on your player's character's levels, they will probably pass the save, but they could still be useful for characters with low will saves (fighter, Barbarian, rogue, etc.)

[Manly Man]

Also, you could just have a couple of level 7 Witches come after them, a couple castings of black tentacles and Slumber hexes later, and they're done.

[Kid Jake]

More so than a particular build, if you want the bounty hunters to be effective try and have them ambush the PCs separately if at all possible. A couple of low-medium level rogues leaping out of an alley and sneak attacking with saps can get overwhelming fast; without being insurmountable.

[Karoht]

Admonishing Ray is non-lethal damage, Aqueous Orb is non-lethal, the two together can be highly effective at capturing and subdoing without killing anyone. Aqueous Orb to keep people out of combat (up to 4 medium creatures with a single casting) , and Admonishing Ray to KO them.

Heck, have the Aqueous Orb start the fight by apprehending someone.
By swallowing a tent and everything/everyone in it.
In the middle of the night.
Followed by immediately moving the Orb away from the camp.
(Standard to cast it, cast it on the tent, move action to move it away)
Then just dogpile that person with nonlethal damage. Repeat the process for the next person.
If there is a watch posted, take him AND a tent at the same time.
And don't forget, you can roll the Orb into a prepared position, such as a pit trap or into an area circled with bear traps.

This only works for so long as the party camps outdoors. If they are indoors this trick will be more challenging but can still work. If the party sleeps every night into an Alarm warded Rope Trick, you open combat with held actions, starting with a Dispel Magic such that they fall into the waiting arms of an Aqueous Orb or two. Then separate them using the Aqueous Orbs, focus on capturing one party member.

If you succeed in capturing a party member, consider using said party member as a hostage, or as bait for another trap.

Good hunting.

[SassyQuatch]

Poisons. Lots of poisons. :smallcool:

[Karoht]

Poisons. Lots of poisons. :smallcool:Poison DC's are often low, Fort tends to be a high save, and Poison resistance or immunity is startlingly prevelant. Never mind Delay Poison and Neutralize Poison. Still, not a terrible way to go. Drow Poison knocks people out, but that save DC of 13 is trivial to make.

Still, enough Halflings and Gnomes in hidden positions firing Blowguns (I just find Blowguns to be a bit silly, don't take this as a serious idea) dealing 1D2 non-lethal and making a Fort save, someone is eventually going to fail it.
I figure 10 of them should do the trick, while some serious defenders keep the party's attention. The 10 should probably focus fire someone, that way it looks like the defenders just knocked someone out. Perception check to hear some blowguns firing amidst the sounds of combat? Can't be easy.

At 1D2 non-lethal, it's like getting hit by spitballs in grade school. Only these ones are a bit pointy and coated with drugs.

...so just like grade school. Huh. How about that?

[HunterOfJello]

I was always fond of the Wizard Police. They watch you from afar and then teleport in and paralyze you before you know what's going on.

I had one player who decided he disliked his character (warforged warlock) to the point that the character attempted suicide in the middle of a wizard university courtyard. (I would have just let him build a new character anyway, this player was just weird.) Anyway, as the DM I told him that you can't coup de grace with a eldritch blast so i made him roll attack and damage rolls. Unfortunately, he had plenty of hit points and failed to kill himself with two attacks to his own head.

By that time, the wizards of the university noticed what was up, teleported in, paralyzed and incapacitated the entire party, and teleported everyone except the warlock out of the area and into a massive garbage dump.

The warforged warlock was interrogated by the wizard police on the campus for a long time, spent a bunch of time in a psych ward, and eventually met the party the next time they came to that city. (The player had left by then.) The warforged had become an insane bum who sat around the city and did nothing all day since his eldritch blast powers were disabled by the wizards and he lost all meaning in his life.

tl;dr: WIZARD POLICE!

[HaikenEdge]

I'm considering having lawful bounty hunters attempt to catch criminal PC's alive to create satisfying consequences for breaking the law that are threatening and exciting and non-game-ending.

I think you also need to consider whether this is to satisfy yourself, or to satisfy the players. If the players are playing criminals, then they're going to want to be able to get away with what they've done, and if I'm in such a position and I find I've got bounty hunters on me, as a player, I'm going to try to cut off the serpent's head (and basically smash the system), so you should probably check with your PCs to make sure being chased by bounty hunters and being imprisoned is actually satisfying to the PCs.

With that said, the previously mentioned Justiciar is also in Complete Warrior; if you don't mind porting 3.5 material and are looking for something a little more skill-based, there's the Bloodhound from Complete Adventurer.

If your bounty hunters aren't incompetent, they should be stalking your players, trying to find their weaknesses and take them down with minimal risks to themselves, meaning, you probably should metagame a little bit, in terms of their preparation. That's not to say you should make the bounty hunters encounters that can't be won, but rather, they should be challenging.

[Julix]

I really appreciate the replies I got so far!

On asking permission
Breaking out of jail once is a cool adventure. Doing it repeatedly becomes unbelievably and possibly boring, as it removes the threat of "maybe next time we might not get out". - Being surprised by bounty hunters would be a lot cooler than when expecting them... but if it was a recurring theme I'd definitively want to know whether they're down for that.

But as said before asking could ruin the surprise. Should I ask them more generally at the beginning of the campaign if they'd enjoy having some run-ins with the law and law-enforcement later in the campaign, being chaotic goblins and all? Get like a general permission, that way they wouldn't know when to expect it, and still get to be surprised. :-)

On hunters

Slumber targets one person, though with a better DC. I did think about the pack of witches, but I couldn't picture them lawful... - then again once the bounty gets bigger, that would become less of a problem. - The normal sleep spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sleep) works on 4HD worth of creatures in a 10ft square and works for minutes rather than rounds... so if they fall in a pit or are otherwise all in a 10 ft square, a Level 1 bard, sorcerer, wizard, witch or night domain cleric could potentially take them out as long as it's up to 4 players with lvl 1 characters. Most recently it was 3 players @ lvl1... however, if they're lucky they pass the will save.

Being scared though reduces saves, including will, right? -- Size gives +4 bonus (as goblins are small), being half-orc would give +2 (this race also has an exquisite witch archetype that casts using constitution by the way) - but again not a stereotypically lawful character... perhaps later down the road. --- A bard could conjure up some still image with ghost sounds to get huge circumstantial bonus... - Intimidate to get shaken, then calm them down and make them sleeeeeep :D muahhahahaha.

Can anyone point me towards a good grapple-tie-up build?

[SassyQuatch]

Poison DC's are often low, Fort tends to be a high save, and Poison resistance or immunity is startlingly prevelant. Never mind Delay Poison and Neutralize Poison. Still, not a terrible way to go. Drow Poison knocks people out, but that save DC of 13 is trivial to make.

Still, enough Halflings and Gnomes in hidden positions firing Blowguns (I just find Blowguns to be a bit silly, don't take this as a serious idea) dealing 1D2 non-lethal and making a Fort save, someone is eventually going to fail it.
I figure 10 of them should do the trick, while some serious defenders keep the party's attention. The 10 should probably focus fire someone, that way it looks like the defenders just knocked someone out. Perception check to hear some blowguns firing amidst the sounds of combat? Can't be easy.

At 1D2 non-lethal, it's like getting hit by spitballs in grade school. Only these ones are a bit pointy and coated with drugs.

...so just like grade school. Huh. How about that?
Well, we would assume some prep time since bounty hunters aren't a random encounter.

A Vishkanya alchemist with boosted Con can create several doses of a somewhat more powerful venom per day. DC can be further boosted by +2 with a Poison tattoo. Sleep Venom feat can instead have the venom stagger and make unconscious an enemy. Remember that all affected weapons and ammunition remain coated until used or "wiped off".

Hand out the ammunition to a group and let loose. Boosted DC should have more saves fail and further save DCs go even higher.

EDIT: Wait. Level 1 party? Well, the poison idea just got a lot more viable.

Hmm, tossing a basket full of shocker lizards on the party can wear them down pretty fast too. Save for half damage so evasion types will be fairly safe, but as part of a comprehensive capture strategy...

[YossarianLives]

What about a monk to beat them unconscious. That would certainly match in a lawful party

[Karoht]

tl;dr: WIZARD POLICE!Cool story bro.
In all seriousness, I'm fond of using the Wizard Police at some point, both to emphasize that scry and die tactics are in fact a thing, even for just stopping criminals and non-lethal capture.

However, the moment you have the Wizard police show up and pwn things, it begs a very important question. Why the heck aren't the Wizard Police solving bigger problems, why is the party doing it instead? Someone at the table always asks this question.

As long as you handle it right, it shouldn't be too much of an issue, but handled wrong it can seriously break immersion. Even if you tone down the magic it can be a hassle.

Meanwhile, I would never have thought of using a specialized Alchemist for non-lethal capture. That's pretty clever actually.

[Tvtyrant]

Have a pet Balhannoth work with the bounty hunters? It has a high grapple check and an AMF built in, so the bounty hunters use it to grab enemy mages. It also has tons of reach and can roll around on the ceiling.

Edit: I don't actually know if PF has that monster, now that I think of it. Oh well, if not I suggest giant web flinging spider pets!

[Metahuman1]

Here's an idea. Have a wizard scry and spam teleportation spells until all the PC's fail a save. Have him teleport them into rooms, each with a contingent teleport and no other way out, and no way for air to get in. They suffocate till they pass out, then get teleported to another room were Specially configured Golems or summoned outsiders strip them down to there skivvies quickly and efficiently, leaving them gear less. Finally, have them be teleported just over a big slick pit, rigged up with an anit-magic feild and a dimensional anchor, and a running line of grease on the walls to make climbing impossible. Sure, they take fall damage, just make sure the bottoms padded or something to mitigate it so it hurts but won't kill them.


They are now well and truly screwed by a top level, very successful, professional bounty hunter. And yet, there alive to be handed over to the proper authorities.

[andreww]

If you are going to do that then you may as well just say rocks fall and they are all dead or unconscious. Also as this is PF you cannot teleport unwilling targets.

Personally I think in a world in which magic exists your best bounty hunters are going to be spell casters of some form or another. Especially if the group contains casters of their own. Flying greater invisible wizards/sorcerers or natural spell using flying druids incapacitating people supported by called outsiders to take the immobile into custody.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, fine, have a wizard summon a bunch of Titans literally on top of the PC's then and beat the ever loving snot out of them with grappel damage so that no one can fight or run. Sure, the rogue get's a hit or two in but he's no sneak attacking, and sure, the wizard stabs once or twice with his dagger, but en, not a big deal.

Only way this goes wrong is if you have a dedicated unarmed/grappling/natural weapons character in the party.

[Karoht]

Metahuman is basically saying the exact thing I was more or less warning one to avoid. From the party perspective it can come across as completely arbitrary, as someone pointed out, it is almost no different than 'rocks fall...' as a conclusion.

You've been given lots of ideas and some cautionary stuff too. Make the most of it.

But my vote is still for Aqueous Orb and Admonishing Ray.

[HunterOfJello]

Why the heck aren't the Wizard Police solving bigger problems, why is the party doing it instead? Someone at the table always asks this question.

I would reply with the answer that Discworld gives about wizards. Wizards aren't going around solving all of the worlds problems because they have better things to do. They much prefer to spend their time being awesome, eating at banquets honoring themselves, learning new magics, and competing with all of the other dangerous wizards in the world. Why would groups of powerful wizards actually care about the mundane people of the world?

Serious wizard police should only be policing matters that involve powerful spellcasting. The reason they appeared in my game was because a warforged was shooting itself in the head with eldritch blasts in the middle of their University. They aren't fond of that ****.

[Karoht]

I would reply with the answer that Discworld gives about wizards. Wizards aren't going around solving all of the worlds problems because they have better things to do. They much prefer to spend their time being awesome, eating at banquets honoring themselves, learning new magics, and competing with all of the other dangerous wizards in the world. Why would groups of powerful wizards actually care about the mundane people of the world?Begging the question, why are there Wizard police?


Serious wizard police should only be policing matters that involve powerful spellcasting. The reason they appeared in my game was because a warforged was shooting itself in the head with eldritch blasts in the middle of their University. They aren't fond of that ****.Fair. But say BBEG shows up with an Army of Evil. Said Wizard Police are going to stand idly by?

[Slipperychicken]

However, the moment you have the Wizard police show up and pwn things, it begs a very important question. Why the heck aren't the Wizard Police solving bigger problems, why is the party doing it instead? Someone at the table always asks this question.


The Wizard Police are busy handling other matters, such as other crimes, detective work, assisting in magical research, teaching apprentices/undergrads/interns, and doing other wizardly duties. The PCs have to do some in-universe questioning if they want to learn that reason, though.

This sort of thing makes a lot more sense when the PCs quest doesn't have the fate of the world in the balance. Like if they're just trying to save one kingdom, rescue some royalty, reclaim lost treasure, or something of that ilk.


EDIT: And if the PCs' quest is so important as to warrant their attention, and it's in their interest to help the PCs, perhaps the wizards would give some manner of assistance like yielding some important intelligence, lending a valuable magic item, or giving some transportation.

[Reinkai]

I'm going to have to disagree with all the nay-sayers on this one.

You're the DM, it's your job to provide interesting stories. You wouldn't ask if they would be ok encountering a group of trolls, why would you ask if they were ok with bounty hunters? Is there really a difference between the two in the long run (assuming they resist)?

They're going to do their best to not fall unconscious, and you're going to do your best to beat the snot out of them.

If they fail though, they don't die, so that's a plus.

Just make sure it's fun. Give them interesting combat, if they lose give them a fun breakout scene, if they win give them a sidequest to either clear their names or have it stricken from the records somehow (either legally through a pardon or illegally through faking their deaths, forging records, etc.).

As long as all the players are having fun, and it's not tedious, I don't see an issue.

Edit: And to answer your question, I'm a fan of Heavens Oracles using Heightened Color Spray.

[Julix]

Color spray is a great idea, as well, unconscious and stunned... muhahaha.

The party has a cleric and an alchemist - but so far I found the less magical solutions more attractive.

A human lvl 2 bard who retrained his feats for weapon focus and dazzling display could intimidate all of em at once to reduce their saves and do what he can with his 2 first level spells. :D

As was said before I do have lots of good ideas now. I'll see how I can make this add up to a sweet challenge. :-)

[Julix]

Okay...let's try this:

1)Use a human penitent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/orders/paizo---cavalier-orders/order-of-the-penitent) Cavalier (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier)

2)Huntmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/huntmaster) Archetype provides proficiency with net, and an array of falcons/dogs to track/trip/blind PCs; in the worst case, they are replacable fodder that may soak spells/attacks in a combat encounter with the PCs.

3)Penitents can tie up=> make PC's helpless rather quickly, thanks to their "expert captor" ability.

A penitent with a rope dart, Hamatula Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hamatula-strike-combat) and Greater Grapple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-grapple-combat---final) can attack+grapple as standard action, pulling the impaled/grappled target next to himself as part of the grapple, then use his move action to tie the target up.

How did I not see this before? Thanks so much for pointing that out! The lvl 2 ability from the cavalier order is amazing for my purposes. :-)