I need your input: How do characters converse about magic items?

[Jon_Dahl]

Let's imagine that your character is in a Magic Mart and he/she wants to buy a cloak of resistance +2.
What does he/she say to the vendor? How does the conversation go? Let's imagine that the vendor has all kinds of cloaks of resistance, including +2s.

My guess is that they talk about prices. "No, I don't want to buy a cloak of resistance that costs 1.000 gp. I want the one that costs 4.000." I guess that's the only valid way to go.

What do you think?

[VeggieWombat]

"I'd like this kind of effect" if you don't already have the item, and "with more powerfull/potent enchantment/properties" if you have it already/know what you're looking for. . Bonus point if you're a caster user detect magic & stuff to ID ^^

[Ranos]

In the real world, someone who knows a little bit about computers may ask for a specific component by name. Others will just ask for "a computer to look at my internet mails".

Same thing here, someone with a bit of spellcraft or knowledge will ask for "a Cloak of resistance +2". Someone without any of that will just ask for "something to help protect me against magic". And if he has 4000GP to burn, he'll just ask for the best quality he can get for that much.

[Calimehter]

At the end of the day the item pluses are a real, tangible, measureable force - which means that the people who are powerful and steeped enough in magic and magical theory to actually be participating in the organized long-term buying and selling of it (i.e. a true MagicMart) *will* have developed a terminology of some sort to accurately describe it.

Whether that terminology is just the exact wording from the rulebooks, or whether it is a whole other language revolving around a complex system of arcane-sounding obscura lavishly created by the DM to enhance the verisimilitude of his campaign setting, it will be there.

[JusticeZero]

It's probably something basic like "A two-layer cloak of protection" or some such thing.

[Gemini476]

At the end of the day the item pluses are a real, tangible, measureable force - which means that the people who are powerful and steeped enough in magic and magical theory to actually be participating in the organized long-term buying and selling of it (i.e. a true MagicMart) *will* have developed a terminology of some sort to accurately describe it.

Whether that terminology is just the exact wording from the rulebooks, or whether it is a whole other language revolving around a complex system of arcane-sounding obscura lavishly created by the DM to enhance the verisimilitude of his campaign setting, it will be there.
What he said.

One thing to remember is that since the rules of 3.5 are as they are, they should also be able to be discovered by people in-setting. Kind of like how we have discovered a bunch of the rules of our universe in the form of physics.

Class levels are easy to find out about, although it's probably a bit difficult to figure out that there's twenty rather than nine or seventeen (level 2 is difficult to find). Just start with spell levels, figure out that Sorcerers get them later, maybe connect the full set with something like the number of Utterances that a Truenamer has or something.

Ability scores probably start being figured out in the form of what gives bonus spells to what, but unless you get experiments with Ability Damage you won't get more than the modifiers (other than for Strength, of course).

Saves follow on from that, after mages manage to piece together that increased level equals increased resistance to spells and that Clerics have stronger Will than Wizards, which seems to imply a correlation between Wisdom and Will.

So I dunno, maybe they just call it a Cloak of Resistance +2. Or maybe it's a Lesser Cloak of Resistance or whatever.
You can also figure out the bonus from the street price, which is a weird thing that Wizards with Appraisal might figure out somehow. Currency is a universal constant! Who knew?

[HaikenEdge]

You can also figure out the bonus from the street price, which is a weird thing that Wizards with Appraisal might figure out somehow. Currency is a universal constant! Who knew?

Now you've given me mental images of shady-looking people in large cloaks, hawking knock-off magic items on the street.

"Psst... you want a cloak of resistance? It's made by L'minster. Top quality stuff, I tell ya."

[Emperor Tippy]

Ability scores probably start being figured out in the form of what gives bonus spells to what, but unless you get experiments with Ability Damage you won't get more than the modifiers (other than for Strength, of course).

Actually Int is the easiest to find. Anyone with Mindsight knows the Int score of everyone around them. Detect Thoughts also tells the Int score of each thinking mind in its AoE with 2 rounds of study.

[ericgrau]

Honestly we just say I would like a +2 cloak of resistance. I understand how annoying that is though. I imagine characters would know of distinct levels so I suggest your group get together and pick a single terminology for everything so that you understand each other. Perhaps it could be as simple as a "level 1 cloak", "level 2 cloak" etc. Or "tier 1", "tier 2", etc. (where higher numbers are better). Or "type A", "type B", "type C", etc.

As for prices the system is a simplification that ignores local price variations, haggling, market fluctuations and so on. Your DM is free to vary prices based on circumstances but he should probably keep them around the same ballpark as the listed numbers. And if done at the right times it reminds players of the plot. I say go for it, when appropriate. If you ask for an item by price OTOH, you just killed your chance to vary it and you run the risk of overpaying by a little or a lot.

[Dalebert]

I imagine it might be developed by good marketing teams because people are obviously trying to upsell.

+1 Basic <item name>
+2 Standard <item name>
+3 Expert <item name>
+4 Premium <item name>
+5 Professional <item name>

Or if you want to be more contextual

+1 Serf's
+2 Common
+3 Tradesman's
+4 Noble
+5 Royal

And of course the salesman will spend a lot of time extolling the virtues of the nicer ones and why you should shell out the extra dough. A better salesman will figure out what you're likely to spend (figuring that number is probably more than what you say when he asks) and market that the best "deal" is the one he thinks you can afford while the ones above that, while certainly nicer, are not really worth the significant difference in cost and are more for people with money to burn.

[Coidzor]

Really you're asking two questions. How do those in the know talk about magic items and how do those who are ignorant talk about them.

For crafters and those in the know, I see no reason to use anything other than the names of the items in the vast majority of cases.

For those who don't know and don't have a close enough connection to anyone who knows to borrow the lingo from them, well, I don't see how they're surviving long enough for it to be an issue. :smalltongue: More seriously, I don't see any way to try to cludge this out as anything other than tremendously painful, awkward ad-libbing that detracts more from the game than it adds.

[HammeredWharf]

Even if one assumes things like saves aren't quantifiable in-universe ("He is strong-willed" instead of "His will save is +10"), there absolutely should be terminology related to how magic works, because it's quite scientific in D&D. Whether the cloak is called a tier 2 Cloak of Resistance or a Cloak of Resistance +2 is largely irrelevant in the end. I'd use +2, simply because it's what the cloak is called in the rulebook, so you won't get awkward OOC moments where a player forgets to call it by its in-universe name and the DM has to correct him.

This is also related to how NPCs are handled in D&D. They are governed by the same rules as PCs, so getting levels of Wizard isn't just some metagamey way of handling your character's progression. It's how things work in-universe.

[Deophaun]

How do characters talk about magic items? Why, it's stated right in the Magic Item Compendium:

“My armor? +3 adamantine light fortification full plate. I wouldn’t leave home without it.” —Tordek
You may facepalm now.

[Calimehter]

For those who don't know and don't have a close enough connection to anyone who knows to borrow the lingo from them, well, I don't see how they're surviving long enough for it to be an issue. :smalltongue: More seriously, I don't see any way to try to cludge this out as anything other than tremendously painful, awkward ad-libbing that detracts more from the game than it adds.

Well, this sort of thing will only be happening in a low-magic setting or in a settlement too small for MagicMart to have opened an outlet. In such a location, the OPs question is moot. You don't need to know how to describe or request a Cloak of Resistance +2 from the townfolk - they won't have it, because there's no MagicMart.

The locals *might* have some magic gear, and they may or may not even be aware of the magical properties of said gear, but it won't be a situation where a player requests an item. What is even available will just be a random bit of "loot" rolled for or placed by the DM that is no different from anything found in a dungeon, other than ( the slightly :smallwink: greater likelihood of) having to negotiate with an NPC for it instead of taking it off of their dead corpse. You'll be using Detect Magic and Identify just like you were in the dungeon, since you're not going to know/request what is available beforehand.

No awkward terminology need come up. You might need to announce "Hey, we're looking for a magic cloak", but you shouldn't have to get too much more specific than that to get an idea of what is even available.

[Gnome Alone]

It's probably something basic like "A two-layer cloak of protection" or some such thing.

I find this to be the most elegant of the solutions posed thus far for the example of the cloak of resistance, though it might get a bit trying thinking of suitable descriptions for each and every type of item.

Nigh-obligatory quote and counterpoint, though:

"I estimate a 25% increase in attack accuracy, with a corresponding enhancement to damage."
"It's OK, you can just say '+5 sword' here. We do stuff like that all the time."
"Oh. Then yes, a +5 sword."

It's not even all that crazy in a world with literally measurable magic and Good and Evil as actual quasi-sentient cosmic forces and such.

[SiuiS]

Ask for a better model?

You don't say "nah, I want the 1750 horsepower engine, not the 1725 horsepower one." You just say "more/better".

Besides, when is the last time someone bothered to role play out a magic mart? At that point I doubt it's being called a magic mart in the first place.

[Snowbluff]

How do characters talk about magic items? Why, it's stated right in the Magic Item Compendium:

You may facepalm now.
Thanks for posting that.

[Gemini476]

Ask for a better model?

You don't say "nah, I want the 1750 horsepower engine, not the 1725 horsepower one." You just say "more/better".

Besides, when is the last time someone bothered to role play out a magic mart? At that point I doubt it's being called a magic mart in the first place.

Well, sure, if you're a pleb. An experienced adventurer knows to specify exactly what he wants rather than leave it to the whims of the salesman. Or craft it himself, which is better in general.

But yeah, people totally say "nah, I want a 1750 hp engine". It's a thing. You'd expect a serious adventurer to be as interested in the magical item scene as a car hobbyist is in the car engine scene.

[DJroboninja]

The important thing to remember is that the man who runs the local Ye Olde Magick Shoppe is a salesman. If you walk in and say "I need a magic cloak of protection", he's not gonna offer up the +1 for 1000gp and the +2 for 4000gp, he's gonna offer up "the Mantle of Bragdinal, immortal defender of Aundair" for 1000gp, or the "Whitecloak of Galdrik, slayer of the white wyrm" for 4000gp. It makes it seem more realistic for magic items to have a story to them (whether it's a true legend or a complete crock) and it makes any item seem more interesting to the player than just a stat boost.

[Yawgmoth]

Yeah I have to agree with the others saying that anyone who is "in the know", e.g. adventurers and the people who make their items, would likely have a standardized number system rather quickly. After all, caster level and spell effects that give a straight +N to X are ridiculously simple to figure out in-universe.

To generalize from another system & setting, every major splat in world of darkness has had their fuel and potency stat quantified by some enterprising vampire/werewolf/mage/changeling/etc. and published/disseminated their work no later than the renaissance. It's just natural to go "hey I wonder if we can put a system to this to predict/explain that thing."

Given that most wizards are going to have superhuman intellect before they can cast fireball, I can't see any remotely civilized setting not having said system figured out long before the PCs are born.

[Jon_Dahl]

How do characters talk about magic items? Why, it's stated right in the Magic Item Compendium:

You may facepalm now.

Oh boy, talk about an eye-opener :O
Good arguments so far!
I guess I should just accept that the plusses (and minuses) are something that can be easily figured out, and the names of the items should be the same in-game and off-game.

[Zweisteine]

I might use something like "grade X", where X is the enchantment's strength, if not simply using the words "plus one" or "first level enchantment." They people know how strong enchantments are, and they have to come up with some naming system, so the weakest are first level, the next weakest second level, and so on. How else would they differentiate between similar magic effects?

Item of saves/armor +X has a "level" of X.
Item of Ability Score +X has an enchantment level or X/2,, because the boost is by two.
Armor enchanted to boost hide by X (forget the enchantment name) has a level of X/5, because the enchantment is in increments of 5.


Actually, using the word "grade" sounds silly in practice, like you're talking about magic items going to school or something. Never mind that bit.

[Yawgmoth]

Also don't forget that Detect Magic is a cantrip that can pretty quickly sort out the CL of a magic item.

I like the idea of a magicmart owner casting Magic Aura on Vest of Resistance +1 to make them register as +5, and the like. Sounds like a good starter plot.

[Gemini476]

Also don't forget that Detect Magic is a cantrip that can pretty quickly sort out the CL of a magic item.

I like the idea of a magicmart owner casting Magic Aura on Vest of Resistance +1 to make them register as +5, and the like. Sounds like a good starter plot.

Identify beats that plot almost immediately, though. Magic has a tendency to do that. Like Speak with Dead and whodunnit murder mysteries. Or murders in general and Raise Dead. Until the assassins get Thinaun daggers and such, that is.

[Yawgmoth]

Identify beats that plot almost immediately, though. I'll just leave this here.

If the object bearing magic aura has identify cast on it or is similarly examined, the examiner recognizes that the aura is false and detects the object’s actual qualities if he succeeds on a Will save. Otherwise, he believes the aura and no amount of testing reveals what the true magic is.

[HammeredWharf]

Also don't forget that Detect Magic is a cantrip that can pretty quickly sort out the CL of a magic item.

I like the idea of a magicmart owner casting Magic Aura on Vest of Resistance +1 to make them register as +5, and the like. Sounds like a good starter plot.

I think most magic mart owners would know messing with murderhobos who can afford +5 items is a bad idea. Especially when they can level up twice per week.

[HaikenEdge]

I think most magic mart owners would know messing with murderhobos who can afford +5 items is a bad idea. Especially when they can level up twice per week.

Unless the magic mart is part of a chain owned by some devil, using his thralls to manage each individual shop.

[Yawgmoth]

I think most magic mart owners would know messing with murderhobos who can afford +5 items is a bad idea. It's a +5 sword, but I like you, I know you're gonna go far. I'll sell it to ya for 8k right now!

*makes sales, packs up & moves that night*

[lsfreak]

I think most magic mart owners would know messing with murderhobos who can afford +5 items is a bad idea. Especially when they can level up twice per week.

Anyone capable of acquiring and reselling +5 weapons with regularity can afford to keep a party of high-level murderhobos on the payroll. Anyone who can't is probably smart enough to sell off their +5 weapons to those who can before the murderhobos appear and do their murdering thing.

[Scootaloo]

I regard the "generic" names of items to be player / DM-level stuff. For the in-character approach, think of how the metaphysics in the world works. Think of who the "big name" spellcasters might be. Think of how the effect is described. Also think that in most game worlds, a "magic shop" probably ISN'T going ot be a Wal-Mart, with shelves of stock and someone behind a counter waiting to ring it all up for you

Player: "I want Modora to purchase a Cloak of Resistance +2 while in town."

In-Character: Modora has heard that within the collegiate ward of the city is a sort of flea market where the mages and apprentices of hte college sell off some of their lesser products and experiments as a way of stretching petty cash. More to the point, Modora has learned that a servant to the (locally) renowned abjurer Hamlish has taken a stall on this morning, and is selling dweomers bound in silk produced by his apprentices. After asking around for directions, Modora finds the servant, and inquires about the wares offered; a number of gloves with minor magics are presented, fine cloaks, but one - of finer quality than most and crafted by a personal protegé of Hamlish - catches Modora's eye. She haggles with the servant, finally talking him down to some price that she can afford and that he feels will be acceptable to his master.

[Togo]

One of several reasons why my games don't feature shops selling items.

(with a few exceptions, such as potions being sold alongside alchemical supplies, or magical items being sold alongside antiques or curios)

[TheIronGolem]

I generally hold that when the players talk about buying Item XYZ, it's an abstraction for an in-character conversation that invokes equivalent details that the players may not know or the DM hasn't worked out, but would nevertheless be known to people who inhabit that world.

So "I want the +5 cloak, not the +3" translates to: "I want the one made of dragon scales, not wyvern hide" or some such. Or maybe they're asking for the one made by the more renowned crafter; the equivalent of saying you want an Armani suit instead of a Kenneth Cole.