House Rules [PF]

[Tanuki Tales]

The point of this thread is quite simple: What kind of house rules do you generally use when you are sitting in the GM chair?

[RegalKain]

Awwww only PAthfinder is allowed to post? QQ If it's all the same, I'll post my own houserules, infact everyone who DMs/GMs runs it the same way in our house now.

Cheese- The more they cheese, the more I cheese, the difference I have unlimited resources and can throw an infinite number of cheese baddies at you, it's more a gentleman's rule then a houserule, if you don't chain gate, I won't.

Double Crits- If you roll 2 nat 20s in a row, it's more special then simply critting, in many cases you'll outright kill the enemy, in the case of a boss, you knock them down, blind them or something else that seems dramatically or comically fitting. The flip side is also true, we allow Crit failing for everything. (Saves, skill checks, ability checks etc) Double crit failing usually spells out permanent or temporary doom for your character, again based on dramatic and comical effects at the time. :)

[Alent]

PF houserules:

No anti-paladins.

Intimidation/fear affects stack in the least beneficial way when the players are using them.

Synthesis summoner is banned. The Eidolon level rules will be enforced in the way least beneficial to you, and the Errata will be strictly enforced.

Guns don't resolve against touch AC unless you spend grit. Advanced firearms are banned.

Leadership is banned.

Diplomacy is a measure of your persuasiveness, not no-save greater suggestion + charm person as a skill check.

Monks cannot meditate and walk at the same time, nor can they use boundless step while meditating. (Specific idiot control fix.)

Fighter trap feats are attacks, not standard actions, playing fighter is punishment enough by itself. Take that, SKR.

PrC Requirements can, if logical, can be retooled appropriately for an archetype if you lost the PrC requirements by taking the archetype and the PrC is clearly intended for what you're doing.

Digging a pit trap with a shovel does not cost money.

A few others that are random and highly specific player responses.

[Coidzor]

Intimidation/fear affects stack in the least beneficial way when the players are using them.

...How on earth does it stack in any other way than either A. Demoralize stacks or B. Demoralize doesn't stack? :smallconfused:


Diplomacy is a measure of your persuasiveness, not no-save greater suggestion + charm person as a skill check.

What does that actually mean and how do you model this or is it entirely ad-hoc?

[Tanuki Tales]

Awwww only PAthfinder is allowed to post?

Well, I don't play 3.5 anymore, so House Rules that only work for that game specifically don't really interest me too much. :smalltongue:



PF houserules:

No anti-paladins.


Out of curiosity....why?


Fighter trap feats are attacks, not standard actions, playing fighter is punishment enough by itself. Take that, SKR.


Well, if Monks get it, why can't Fighters? :smalltongue:

I really like this house rule.

[Alent]

...How on earth does it stack in any other way than either A. Demoralize stacks or B. Demoralize doesn't stack? :smallconfused:

This is related to the anti-paladin ban. They have a number of demoralize effects as their evil opposite of mercies, the lower level ones state that they don't advance past a certain level of demoralization, and my players were trying to intimidate creatures into being helpless so they could coup de grace big-things instead of fight them.

After a long series of arguments about the order the effects applied in, the fairness of save or die play, and threatening to pit them against things immune to mind altering effects, that was our resolution. (Edit: somewhere in there we also found we had forgotten a few rules, which made the situation worse than it should have been.)


What does that actually mean and how do you model this or is it entirely ad-hoc?

Somewhere between diplomacy as written and the giant's diplomacy fix. It's never been strictly codified, but the rule is to discourage diplomancer style mind control.

Edit:

Oh, I forgot one, too.

You can only handle animal 2x your HD worth of animals in combat. (We had a ranger find and rear a 3 headed pyrohydra + two rocs and needed to keep the minionmancy reasonable.)

[Bigbeefie]

My group uses these rules:

No Leadership feat

No Gunslingers or advanced Firearms in any campaign unless otherwise stated they are allowed. (an Optimized Gunslinger at level 13 can 1 shot a CR 18 Balor....seems too powerful for 1 character to have access too.)

Undead are still uncritable unless they have roughly 75% of their original anatomy and can offer a true "Vital spot"

No Hero Points for our group allowed.

We re-roll all 1s on health regardless of class.

We do not do massive damage rules. And require you to finish the fight from 100% Health- Death.

We do not follow the 2-3 natural 20 auto death rules. We feel it can be cheap to the DM and the player to be insta-killed. We just take the Critical effect and keep going.

One of our DMs is currently trying to make a house Ruling against Find the Path for game sake.

Last rule is: You attempt to cheese out and break my game I worked hard to prepare...I will cheese and break your entire party. So we try not to get stupid and bend the rules to overwhelming. We make good Optimized character but we don't Tippsyverse or anything of the sort.

[DJroboninja]

0.) Rule of Fun and Rule of Cool always trump Rules as Written

1.) Each character begins with a number of NPC contacts equal to their Charisma modifier (minimum 1) and gains more as they level up.

2.) Climb and Swim are combined into a single "Athletics" skill.

3.) Skill Challenges as per 4E (as much as I dislike 4E I feel like this is something they got right)

4.) Natural Spell doesn't exist.

5.) Reserve Points (from 3.5 UA)

6.) Bosses (enemies with max hp and extra actions, worth 150% normal XP) and minions (enemies with minimum hp and few special abilities, worth 50% normal xp)

[Craft (Cheese)]

Here's my current list of universal 3.P houserules:

The most important rule, and the only one that matters: We're all here to have fun. Don't disrupt the game, whether through your character's behavior or through cheesy tricks (though my cheese tolerance is relatively high). No PvP unless the player (not necessarily the character) consents to it ahead of time. Yes, even if you're Evil.

General:

- 30 point buy, and you can buy a 19 (before racial modifiers) in a stat by spending 22 points, or a 20 by spending 28 points. You can spend 5 attribute points to gain a bonus feat at level 1 instead of increasing your abilities. You may purchase one additional feat this way. In addition, by spending 1 attribute point, you can buy one of the following benefits. Each benefit may only be purchased once, and you may purchase up to 5 benefits.

-- +1 to melee damage rolls
-- +1 to Initiative
-- +1 dodge bonus to AC
-- +1 to Fortitude saves
-- +1 to Reflex saves
-- +1 to Will saves
-- 3 Hit Points
-- 1 additional power point (this may only be selected if you already have a power pool at level 1)
-- 1 additional 0th-level spell prepared each day, or 1 additional 0th-level spell known (this may only be selected if you already have spellcasting ability at level 1)

- When you gain +1 to an ability score at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, you gain +1 in two abilities instead (they must be different abilities). At levels 10 and 20, you gain +1 to all ability scores. This really, really helps the MAD classes while providing only marginal benefit to the SAD ones.

- Alignment is (mostly) gone. Alignment can (and should be) fluff. Only outsiders with alignment subtypes and characters with an alignment aura count as having an alignment for the purposes of effects like Detect Evil or Holy Word. A cleric (or paladin's) alignment aura is based on their deity's alignment, and not their own. Alignment requirements are gone (as is the Paladin's code), though servants of a deity (such as clerics and paladins) are expected to further their deity's interests. If I believe a cleric (or paladin) is acting inappropriately, I prefer to talk to the player about it instead of breaking out the Fall card.

- Action Points (from Eberron Campaign Setting) are in use.

- On attack rolls and saving throws, a natural 1 represents a -10 and a natural 20 represents a +30.

- Everyone gets 2 additional skill points at each level, that must be spent on Profession, Knowledge, or Craft skills. These points cannot be spent on Craft skills that are used for making magic items, or on Knowledge skills used for identifying monsters.

- Spontaneous casters are not required to increase the casting time of their spells when applying metamagic feats.

- All spellcasting classes are now SAD: If a class relied on more than one attribute for its spellcasting previously, the player may choose either stat.

- Fractional BAB and saves are used. For hit points, max hit points at first level, then average hit points (rounding up) every level afterward.

- If you're wearing light or medium armor, add 1/2 your level (rounding down) to your AC. If you're wearing heavy armor, add 3/4 of your level to your AC.

Races and Templates:

- Humans and human variants (and Strongheart Halflings) do not gain a bonus feat at 1st level. Everyone gains 2 feats at 1st level (not counting those they gain from spending ability points or from classes).

- LA +0 templates are allowed, but no character may have more than one. PF templates use their CR adjustment as their LA for this purpose. LA for races without racial hit dice count toward this, but for races with racial hit dice see the Monsters as PCs rules.

ACFs and Archetypes:

- Elven Generalist's bonus spell slot is based on your hit dice: The level of the spell slot is equal to your hit dice plus one, divided by 2. (Maximum 9th-level at level 17).

Base Classes:

- Archivists can only scribe divine spells from the Cleric, Druid, Bard, Ranger, Paladin, Adept, and Shugenja lists, as well as all domain lists. Spells from the list of a homebrew or third party divine base class allowed by permission. Spells from prestige classes, or spells obtained by methods of converting other spells to divine spells (such as Divine Magician, Customize Domain, Hexer, or Favored Soul of Bahamut) can't be scribed into your prayerbook.

- Ardents have their progression based on their class level, not their manifester level, as intended.

- Factotums may only use their Cunning Surge ability once per round. Ruby Knight Vindicators may only use Divine Impetus once per round. Otherwise, these abilities are unchanged.

- Oracles may, alternatively, decide to not have a curse at all. They don't gain the penalty from any curse, but don't gain the benefits of any curse either. An Oracle may not use spells or archetypes that rely on the Oracle's Curse ability if they take this option, such as dual-cursed oracle or Oracle's Burden.

- Oracles gain Channel Energy at level 1, as the Cleric class feature. The Life Oracle revelation that grants channeling instead gives the oracle 4 additional channeling uses per day.

- Warlocks begin with 3 Invocations at level 1, and gain 1 additional invocation every level thereafter. When a warlock replaces an old invocation with a new one, the new one may be of any level they are capable of using.

Prestige Classes:

- Most PrC requirements are waived, and replaced with a minimum entry level, decided by me on a case-by-case basis, but in most cases is equal to the class's highest skill rank requirement (or the highest requirement -3 for 3.5 PrCs). Class features or feats required by PrCs are still required if and only if the PrC advances or utilizes them in a meaningful sense: It wouldn't make much sense to be able to enter Master of Many Forms without Wild Shape, for example. Things like Fochlucan Lyrist requiring Evasion for no reason, though, are waived. If a concept doesn't make sense to me, I reserve the right to require a cool-sounding explanation.

- Fast-progression classes like the Ur-Priest and Divine Crusader are allowed, but with the following rule: You cannot cast a spell unless your ECL is greater than or equal to 1 + twice the spell's unmodified level. So even though you can use Ur-Priest to get a 9th-level spell slot at level 14, you can only use it to prepare metamagic'd versions of lower-level spells. At least, until you reach level 17. This basically means you can't use it to get early access to 9th-level spells.

- No PrC can progress the same class twice in a given level. If it would do so, it only progresses it once.

- Walker in the Waste is a 9-level class (i.e., its capstone ability does not exist).

- Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's veils are subject to dispelling and AMFs. If an initiate has several veils up, and you remove one, all the veils go down simultaneously.

- Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability does not waive material or focus component costs greater than 1 gp.

- Incantatrix's Metamagic Effect, Cooperative Metamagic, and Metamagic Spell Trigger abilities cannot give a spell an effective level higher than that which the caster is normally capable of casting.

Spells:

- Celerity is allowed, but its dazing cannot be avoided or countered by any means, including immunity. You lose your next round of actions, and that's that.

- Consumptive Field and Greater Consumptive Field's strength bonuses have a limit equal to half of your original caster level, just like the CL increases. The temporary hit points granted by the spell do not stack with themselves, nor with any other form of temporary hit points. The caster level and strength bonuses granted by these spells are Profane bonuses (thus multiple castings of this spell do not stack).

- Simulacra never have supernatural, spell-like, psi-like, or extraordinary abilities.

- Explosive Runes created by the same caster cannot damage the same enemy more than once per round. Creating a book full of them works, but any enemy caught in the blast would only take the damage from a single casting of the spell.

- Safe Wishes are allowed if cast by a PC, but attempt Unsafe Wishes at your own peril. Assume all wishes granted by NPCs (such as genies) to be Unsafe, even if you have absolute control over the wish granter in question.

- Spellcasting is a supernatural ability, thus you cannot cast *any* spells within an AMF, even spell effects which it would not normally suppress. I realize this makes Invoke Magic useless: This is intentional.

- Instantaneous Conjurations that target a creature originate within the target's square, for the purposes of effects that rely on the location of a spell's source. Restrictions on line of sight and line of effect with respect to the caster still apply.

Feats:

- Regional and racial requirements for feats are waived, unless the feat augments a racial ability (in which case it's the ability that's required, and not the race itself). I do expect you to justify such feats as part of your backstory, however. You're still restricted to only 1 regional feat, and you may only take a regional feat at level 1.

- Metamagic feats always stack in the order you want, and their effects can always apply to one another. For example, Twin Empowered Fireball gives you 2 15d6 Fireballs, not a 15d6 fireball and a 10d6 fireball. This overrides the specific interactions of Maximize Spell and Empowered Spell: Maximized Empowered Fireball gives you a 90 damage fireball, not a 5d6+60 damage fireball. This clears up several ambiguous cases in the metamagic rules.

- No metamagic feat may have its cost reduced below +1, unless its level adjustment is +0 by default.

- Heighten Spell cannot be affected by metamagic reducers.

- Persistent Spell's range requirements cannot be worked around by any means, such as Reach Spell and Ocular Spell. Touch is not a fixed range.

- Selective Antimagic Field allows you to cast within your AMF, but also causes it to no longer protect you from hostile spells. Other methods, such as Extraordinary Spell Aim, work similarly.

- Split Ray (and its Psionic counterpart) requires you to aim each ray at a different target.

- Linked Power requires you to pay ALL costs, not just PP cost, for the power you use it to manifest.

- Uncanny Forethought is allowed, but only to cast spells for which your character has taken the Spell Mastery feat. (Its function to use a full-round action to cast any spell in your spellbook is banned.)

- Versatile Spellcaster only allows you to cast spells from the same class as the source of the spell slots. It cannot be used to cast spells of a level you are not normally capable of casting. For example, a 1st-level Sorcerer taking Versatile Spellcaster does not gain the ability to cast 2nd-level spells (even metamagic'd versions of 1st-level spells) until she reaches level 4 and gains 2nd-level spell slots. You can only use this feat to cast spells you are capable of casting spontaneously, rather than any spell you know: For example, a 3rd-level cleric with Versatile Spellcaster can sacrifice 2 prepared 1st-level spells to cast Cure Moderate Wounds, but not to cast any 2nd-level cleric spell.

- Arcane Thesis only applies to the first metamagic feat applied to the spell.

- Battle Blessing does not work with Prestige Paladin. It works just fine with the Paladin base class, or any of its variants, however.

- Darkstalker also applies to creatures with Mindsight, Lifesense, and Touchsight.

Items:

- All non-artifact magic items are capped at CL 20th.

- You cannot craft or find magic items containing spells with metamagic feats applied to them.

- Custom staffs are banned, but you may use staffs that are printed in the books.

- You may not lower the cost of crafting or purchasing a magic item by any method.

- Nightsticks are allowed, but don't stack.

Note that most of these things are nerfs to 3.5 content. Depending on the campaign I'll add other rules too, but these are the ones that apply to every game unless I say otherwise. My ban list:

Ban list:

If you are willing to make or suggest a homebrew fix for these banned items, I will consider allowing them, but I will not be automatically permissive as I am with more original homebrew content. Also note that just because a piece of content isn't banned DOES NOT mean you are free to abuse it however you wish: I prefer only to ban things which I believe have no non-disruptive uses, and trust that players won't use allowed material for disruptive purposes (even when that potential exists). Don't violate that trust.

General: All methods of obtaining cohorts or followers (Leadership, Thrallherd, etc.) are banned. If you want a cohort or a group of minions faithful to you, talk to me and I'll see if I can work something out as part of the story: You should not be entitled to such things due to feats or class features. All 3.5 content that has been updated to PF is banned: No using 3.5 versions of spells like Polymorph, or versions of classes like the Druid.

Races and Templates: Aleax, Ghost (Ghostwalk LA +0 version), Half-Machine, Incarnate Construct, Symbiote, Vecna-blooded. Saint is allowed, but its RP requirements will be strictly enforced.

Variants and ACFs: Abrupt Jaunt, Domain Wizard, Spontaneous Divination

Base Classes: Artificer, Erudite (but see the advanced discipline by DSP instead), Magic Mantle Ardent

Prestige Classes: Beholder Mage, Cancer Mage, Emissary of Barachiel, Hathran, Illithid Savant, Metaphysical Spellshaper, Mind Mage, Spelldancer, Subverted Psion, Tainted Scholar, Tainted Sorcerer

Spells: Acorn of Far Travel, Blood Money, Body Outside Body, Consumptive Field, Delay Death, Dweomer of Transference, Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos, Energy Transformation Field, Genesis (but see the Create Demiplane series), Greater Consumptive Field, Hide Life, Ice Assassin, Leech Ghost Skill, Love's Pain, Mind Rape, Mirror Move, Paragon Surge, Polymorph Any Object, Power Leech, Spell Engine, When Two Become One. Epic spells may not be acquired by any means, ever.

Powers: Bestow Power, Forced Dream, Fusion, Mass Time Hop, Metaconcert, Mind Switch, Synchronicity, Time Hop, Time Regression, True Mind Switch

Feats: Craft Contingent Spell, Dragonwrought, Easy Metamagic, Greenbound Summoning, Initiate of Mystra, Item Familiar, Lightning Maces, Mercantile Background, Sanctum Spell. All epic feats, except those listed as Epic Fighter Bonus Feats.

Items: Amulet of Second Chances, Amulet of Peace, Candle of Invocation, Dust of Sneezing and Choking. All magical traps.

[Kudaku]

My house rules list is pretty long, I'll just extract a few:

If you have the appropriate crafting feat to make an item, you also have the ability to disenchant it - turning it into 50% of its base value in crafting materials. This process takes one hour for each 1, 000 GP value of the base item, and can be broken up into multiple sessions. The materials created by disenchanting can either be sold (totaling 50% of the value of the original item) or used to create new items.

Mainly added this for convenience. The players were doing an AP where it would occasionally be quite difficult to sell items without fairly extensive travelling. I tested it in play and so far I quite like it.

When enchanting weapons, you can choose to form 'a bond' between a primary and a secondary weapon. As long as both 'bonded' weapons are wielded, they either benefit from the enhancement bonuses of the primary weapon, or their own separate enhancements - whichever is higher. The cost of enchanting a bonded weapon is 50% on top of the normal enchantment price. Conversely you can establish a bond between two weapons by paying 50% of the enhancement price of the more valuable weapon.

Helps keep the TWF price down somewhat.

All feats with Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite now ignores Point Blank Shot.
Combat Expertise has no intelligence requirement.
Power Attack has no strength requirement.
Dervish Dance is no longer restricted to the scimitar, and works with any one one-handed weapon that qualifies for Weapon Finesse, chosen at the time the character learns the feat. Note that the Dervish of Dawn and other classes or archetypes that grant the feat as a bonus feat must still choose scimitar as the qualifying weapon.

PBS is mainly because I think it's a dull feat. It's still good enough that most archers will eventually take it, but I don't really see the point in making it an entry feat for pretty much every other ranged feat out there.

CE and PA changes should be obvious.

Dervish Dance is interesting and a very viable feat but it really pigeonholes people into using scimitars. This change opens up lots of other options for dexterity-based builds.

Whenever you roll for hit points you can instead choose to take the average of your hit die, rounded up. Ie a wizard will get 4 HP before modifiers, a rogue would get 5, a fighter 6, and so on.

Mainly because I have a player who will invariably roll incredibly badly on HP rolls and I got tired of giving him mulligans. Ironically he now elects to roll instead of taking the average, continuing his long-standing tradition of playing the character with the least HP in the party.

Paladins sit down with the GM and work out their code of conduct ahead of time, following the guidelines laid out here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9ew?Should-the-Paladin-Fall-A-Guide).

Whenever the advancement progression chart shows that you gain a +1 bonus to one of your attributes, you instead gain a +1 bonus to any three attributes.

Because MAD classes benefit greatly from leveling up more than one ability score every four levels.

Monks can be any alignment. Monks choose what alignment (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful) to align their unarmed strike with at level 10 - the damage reduction granted at level 20 will be the opposite of their aligned strike. IE a neutral good monk chooses Good aligned unarmed strike, at level 20 he gets DR 10/Evil.
Druids can be any alignment.
Barbarians can be any alignment.

No comment - I don't want to derail this.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm going to comment on DJ's for the moment, if only because the others posted after him are longer and more comprehensive and I want to digest them fully.



1.) Each character begins with a number of NPC contacts equal to their Charisma modifier (minimum 1) and gains more as they level up.

I...really like this rule. Kind of reminds me of what the Burning Wheel game let you do during character building.


2.) Climb and Swim are combined into a single "Athletics" skill.

How does this interact with Climb and Swim speeds?


3.) Skill Challenges as per 4E (as much as I dislike 4E I feel like this is something they got right)

I've always heard things about this concept when I bothered to look into 4E material. Can someone give me the crib notes explanation?

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'm considering having cure potions be automatically maximized in my Pathfinder E6 Campaign.



How does this interact with Climb and Swim speeds?
The skills are combined but the skill still does two different things, climb and swim. The spell jump gives a bonus to acrobatics checks while jumping but not while tumbling. Same logic would apply here.

[Tanuki Tales]

The skills are combined but the skill still does two different things, climb and swim. The spell jump gives a bonus to acrobatics checks while jumping but not while tumbling. Same logic would apply here.

Ah. I knew they got rid of the specific divisions for bonuses concerning Perception, but didn't know they kept it for jumping and tumbling.

[Starbuck_II]

The point of this thread is quite simple: What kind of house rules do you generally use when you are sitting in the GM chair?

Usually but not always I change these feats to work like this:
1.Prone Shooter (BAB +1)
If you have been prone since the end of your last turn, you gain a +3 bonus to hit while prone.
2.Death or Glory (Str 13, Base 3)
Against a creature of size Large or larger, you can make a full melee attack as a full-round action, gaining a +2 bonus on the attack rolls, damage rolls, and critical confirmation rolls. You gain an additional +1 on this bonus at base attack bonus +6, +11, +16, and +20 (for a maximum of +6 at base attack +20). After you resolve your attack, the opponent you attack can spend an immediate action to make a single melee attack against you with the same bonuses.
Special: You can combine the full rd action attack this feat allows with the benefit of Vital Strike.
3.Fast Healer (Con 13): When you regain hp by resting or through magical healing, you recover additional hp equal to your Constitution modifier -1 (minimum +1).
4.TWF (Dex 15) is one feat: at 6th level, you get an additional offhand at -5, at 11th level; you get a second off hand at -10.
5.Vital Strike: BAB +6
Benefit: When you make a single melee attack like the end of a charge, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

Next I allow these as Maneuvers (like charge, overrun, etc, no feat to do):
1) Whirlwind: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach with a -3 penalty (and damage).
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. The feat Whirlwind removes penalty to hit/damage,

2) Manyshot: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage.
You need the feat to get more than 2 arrows.

3) Shot on the Run: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack (the attack has a -2 penalty), provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

4) Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee weapon (attack has -2 penalty), you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an AoO from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this if you are wearing heavy armor.
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

5) Cleaving: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach by accepting a -3 penalty to hit. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. You can use this ability once per round. (The new feat removes the hit penalty, but you can use PF Cleave feat instead as it is similar)

6) Reckless Offense: When you use the attack action or full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of -4 to your Armor Class and add a +2 bonus on your melee attack roll. The bonus on attack rolls and penalty to Armor Class last until the beginning of your next turn.

Other changes:
Potions are auto maximized (helps cure, aid, etc potions)
Considering no con/level, instead 1/2 Con to hp at start only (So 14 Con means +7 starting health). Everyone gets other half as a reserve healing.

So the 14 Con guy can as a full rd action heal 7 hp 1/day.

[TheIronGolem]

A few of mine off the top of my head:

1. Max hitpoints per die, every level. I freaking hate randomness in character creation/advancement.

2. I have a homebrew "mooks" system that I use for encounters with large numbers of faceless, disposable bad guys. It's too big to detail here, but the short version is: mooks automatically do small amounts of damage (no rolling), and have a sort of shared hitpoint pool that allow characters to kill more than one with a single blow. I would later learn that 13th Age has a similar thing going, though I haven't examined it yet.

3. Many feats are folded together or automatically granted if you have the prerequisites. For example, Improved Initiative includes Quick Draw, and taking Two-Weapon Fighting means you get the Improved and Greater versions for free once you qualify.

4. Fighters can retrain their bonus feats each day by practicing for an hour, much the way casters prepare spells.

5. If you roll a natural 20 for both your attack roll and your critical confirmation, the attack automatically inflicts maximum damage. This includes bonus damage like Sneak Attack.

6. I use the 3.0 XP table. I actually got several sessions into my last campaign before I even realized this had changed for Pathfinder. I'm not inclined to go back, because it's so much easier to just remember that you need to get (current level x 1000) XP to reach your next level.

7. Perception is always a class skill for everyone.

8. At every fourth level, you get two ability points instead of one. This is because I find it annoying to get an "increase" to your score that doesn't actually do anything.

9. There is no defensive fighting. Instead, everyone gets Combat Expertise for free.

[Tanuki Tales]

- Explosive Runes created by the same caster cannot damage the same enemy more than once per round. Creating a book full of them works, but any enemy caught in the blast would only take the damage from a single casting of the spell.

Why the nerf to Explosive Runes?



Dragonwrought

Why Dragonwrought? It would seem that simply banning the Epic Level Handbook, Dragons of Eberron and Dragon Magazine would take all the cheese out of that.





Next I allow these as Maneuvers (like charge, overrun, etc, no feat to do):
1) Whirlwind: When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach with a -3 penalty (and damage).
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. The feat Whirlwind removes penalty to hit/damage,

2) Manyshot: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage.
You need the feat to get more than 2 arrows.

3) Shot on the Run: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack (the attack has a -2 penalty), provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

4) Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee weapon (attack has -2 penalty), you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an AoO from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this if you are wearing heavy armor.
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

5) Cleaving: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach by accepting a -3 penalty to hit. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. You can use this ability once per round. (The new feat removes the hit penalty, but you can use PF Cleave feat instead as it is similar)

6) Reckless Offense: When you use the attack action or full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of -4 to your Armor Class and add a +2 bonus on your melee attack roll. The bonus on attack rolls and penalty to Armor Class last until the beginning of your next turn.

These are interesting. How have the played out in actual gameplay?



Considering no con/level, instead 1/2 Con to hp at start only (So 14 Con means +7 starting health). Everyone gets other half as a reserve healing.

So the 14 Con guy can as a full rd action heal 7 hp 1/day.

How does this scale though, other than increasing your Constitution Score?

[JusticeZero]

HP are median round up at every level, plus 6. Why? Because general issue non-adventurers all have 6 hp, all bad saves, 2 skill points, no class skills, no weapon or armor proficiencies. Thus, the transition from level 0 to level 1 is straightforward, without any adjustments.
Free TWF chain for everyone. 4e style square circles.
Javelins are treated as ammunition. Slings reload as a free action, like bows, for anybody proficient. Spears have the stats of the trident.
Fighter skill points are 6+int, with a few extra skills. Monks are now full BAB, all martial weapons. At that point, flurry is relatively meaningless, but it can be applied to any proficient weapon.

[Perseus]

Funny enough last time I played in a looong one shot (13 hr +) the DM gave out House rules and stuff...

Most of his house rules reversed a lot of the changes from 3.5 to PF... It was hilarious when I told him so. He had never played 3.5 so it is a little understandable though.

My favorite was CMB/CMD was changed to straight up ability checks with no size limit to what you can or can't grapple and smaller bonuses for size changes.

Medium = +0
Smaller than medium = +/- 4
Larger than medium = +/- 4

No other bonuses (like multi legged) applied unless they were feats or magic items.

I made a Dwarven Fighter (racial class... Forget the name) and played golf with the caster who had "create hole" or whatever the spell is called.

[Coidzor]

4e style square circles.

Square circles? :smallconfused:

[Kudaku]

Square circles? :smallconfused:

When a 3.5 spell says "x foot burst" you draw out a template akin to this (http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/604/radiiredclippeduz4.gif). When a 4th edition effect says area burst x it looks like this (http://diceofdoom.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/AoE-fireball.png).

One of the fairly few changes in 4th edition I actually really like - trying to draw up the 3.x templates was always a pain in the ass.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Why the nerf to Explosive Runes?

Take a book with 100 pages, over the period of several days cast explosive runes on each page.(or cast explosive runes on 100 pages then bind them into a book). Throw book at dragon then cast an area dispel magic at minimum caster level in order to trigger a failure. This causes all the explosive runes to detonate dealing 600d6 damage.

[Perseus]

When a 3.5 spell says "x foot burst" you draw out a template akin to this (http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/604/radiiredclippeduz4.gif). When a 4th edition effect says area burst x it looks like this (http://diceofdoom.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/AoE-fireball.png).

One of the fairly few changes in 4th edition I actually really like - trying to draw up the 3.x templates was always a pain in the ass.

If you do the math for 3.5 areas they come out horribly wrong. Someone on here actually did an in depth piece on this subject.

At least 4e's model is so dang easy to use even if people can't picture it in their head for whatever reason.

[Suddo]

I was thinking about making Exotic Weapon Proficiency a Trait.

[Perseus]

I was thinking about making Exotic Weapon Proficiency a Trait.

Still wouldn't be taking in PF, unless recently some exotic weapons got a boost in use... The exotic weapons aren't worth using.

Same thing in 3.5, well except for the spiked chain...

[Totema]

Oh! While we are on the subject of double crits, I use this (http://austkyzor.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/the-dnd-critical-fumble-chart/) to determine the outcome of double fumbles. :3 (It might take some work to use it for PF...)

[Tanuki Tales]

If you have the appropriate crafting feat to make an item, you also have the ability to disenchant it - turning it into 50% of its base value in crafting materials. This process takes one hour for each 1, 000 GP value of the base item, and can be broken up into multiple sessions. The materials created by disenchanting can either be sold (totaling 50% of the value of the original item) or used to create new items.

Mainly added this for convenience. The players were doing an AP where it would occasionally be quite difficult to sell items without fairly extensive travelling. I tested it in play and so far I quite like it.


But what exactly do they disenchant into? And why is this material(s) easier to sell than the magic item itself?


HP are median round up at every level, plus 6. Why? Because general issue non-adventurers all have 6 hp, all bad saves, 2 skill points, no class skills, no weapon or armor proficiencies. Thus, the transition from level 0 to level 1 is straightforward, without any adjustments.


So...you went back to older editions where NPCs were basically useless and meant to worship PCs, because they had no chance of winning? :smallconfused:


Take a book with 100 pages, over the period of several days cast explosive runes on each page.(or cast explosive runes on 100 pages then bind them into a book). Throw book at dragon then cast an area dispel magic at minimum caster level in order to trigger a failure. This causes all the explosive runes to detonate dealing 600d6 damage.

But wouldn't a nerf that either prevents dispel explosions or preventing so many Explosive Runes being lumped together be a better house rule then making it pointless to prepare multiple times?

[Alent]

But wouldn't a nerf that either prevents dispel explosions or preventing so many Explosive Runes being lumped together be a better house rule then making it pointless to prepare multiple times?

I actually sort of like this, it lets you make explosive rune book grenades to destroy buildings, cause cave ins, etc., without making them auto-kill weapons against creatures.

edit: Or use explosive runes as shaped charges to bring down every support pillar in a basement or such.

[Tanuki Tales]

I actually sort of like this, it lets you make explosive rune book grenades to destroy buildings, cause cave ins, etc., without making them auto-kill weapons against creatures.

edit: Or use explosive runes as shaped charges to bring down every support pillar in a basement or such.

I feel like Craft's nerf probably would also apply to objects.

[DJroboninja]

I'm going to comment on DJ's for the moment, if only because the others posted after him are longer and more comprehensive and I want to digest them fully.



I...really like this rule. Kind of reminds me of what the Burning Wheel game let you do during character building.



How does this interact with Climb and Swim speeds?



I've always heard things about this concept when I bothered to look into 4E material. Can someone give me the crib notes explanation?

1.) It's been awesome, because it keeps everyone from just saying "oh lowest score goes to Charisma, OBVIOUSLY" and it makes the PCs feel like they existed before the campaign started.

2.) As has been said, it basically gets worded as "+X bonus on Athletics checks to climb"

3.) Basically, it represents an encounter that can't be solved with punching. Certain skills can be used and you need to achieve a certain number of successes before 3 failures. In the first adventure of our campaign, we used skill challenges to resolve a game of poker, getting a ship ready to leave port, and getting chased through the streets of Stormreach - it makes skills feel as important as attacks and spells, which is important to me.

[Tanuki Tales]

3.) Basically, it represents an encounter that can't be solved with punching. Certain skills can be used and you need to achieve a certain number of successes before 3 failures. In the first adventure of our campaign, we used skill challenges to resolve a game of poker, getting a ship ready to leave port, and getting chased through the streets of Stormreach - it makes skills feel as important as attacks and spells, which is important to me.

I'm not sure how that differs from a regular scenario dependent on skill checks.

[Karoht]

1-Monks can Flurry of Blows as a Standard Action.

2-Enemies don't crit. Unless it's part of the build that they go crit fishing.

3-We flip flop on this rule which explains the way I write this.
A roll of a nat 20 is/is not an auto hit, it merely adds +10 to the roll, or confers a bonus hit roll (which can either be added to the first roll, or treated as a second attack, must be declared before rolling).

4-Leadership and minion-mancy is a no. If we want to play an army VS army game, I need to know that in advance, and the world has to be built for it, which means that pretty much everyone at the table has to have Leadership. This goes double for necromancer builds.
4.1-If Leadership is a thing, we use a mass roller for combat for minions only, and all army/stronghold building must be done before session. Army building during session MUST be related to the story, or the answer is no.
4.2-These rules are to speed up combat and not bog things down. If at any point the DM feels things are bogged down by something related to an army, DM holds the right to suspend or deny whatever that thing is until the end of the session.

5-"I want him alive. No disintegrations." If Vader says it, you do it. Or don't do it. Whichever one he wants you to do or not do. This goes double for Bobble-Head Vader and Darth Tater. If ever these items are not in the DM's possession, the DM is at liberty to award 1 level worth of XP or 25000 gp for their return, each.
(You really had to be there)

6-3rd Party stuff is a no. But if one really really REAAAAAALLY needs something 3rd Party in their build, we can discuss it. Make a case for it. Don't just say 'because it's cool and I want it.' Though that is a valid reason for wanting it too.

That's really it thus far.

[Powerfamiliar]

Thie ones in my sig are e6 and campaign specific, these are my general ones.

1.Average HP. I think rolling can be unfair, but that giving max makes healing and blasting less powerful, and those are already weak options.
2. Fractional BAB
3. Clerics spontaneously cast domain spells, not harm/heal.
4. Druids use phb2 shapeshift variant (this also saves me from banning natural spell since it no longer works.)
5. Fighters get 4+int skill points
6. Inquisitors get heavy armor proficiency and can take combat feats as well as teamwork feats as their bonus feats.
7. Monks get full BAB, d10 hit die, and dont't provoke when performing combat maneuvers.
8. Rogues get weapon finesse as a bonus feat at level 1, and at level 2 get an ability called "lucky" that adds CHA to saves.
9. Combined climb and swim into athletics.
10. All favored class options that add a a spell known now only add 1/3 of a spell known.
11. All Teleportation spells require line of sight.
12. Blood money and paragon surge are banned.
13. From 0 to -Fort save mod characters are conscious but disabled.
14. You can use vital strike while charging or spring attacking.

[Kudaku]

But what exactly do they disenchant into? And why is this material(s) easier to sell than the magic item itself?

Residuum - it's another concept borrowed from 4th edition. The main benefit is that the material is very light (residuum represents a more portable form of wealth than platinum or gems - often used for trading when the sheer weight of coin would be inconvenient), and that it can be used as a material for enchanting other items.

It cuts back on inconvenient downtime (can't carry anymore, let's go back to town), makes crafting feats (other than Craft Wondrous Items) more attractive, and it kind of makes sense to me - magic is essentially building blocks. If you put something together, you can take it apart again.

It should be noted that in this particular AP the party were primarily fighting ogrekin, ogres, and assorted giants - they were getting lots of low-level magic weapons and armor that were also Large or Huge-sized. The party couldn't use them and even the bags of holding were filling up fast.

Having the option of disenchanting the weapons and armor meant the party didn't have to make the three-week trip back to a city large enough to absorb the wealth they were unloading.

[BWR]

Some I have been using, or seriously thinking about using.

Item creation feats are no longer required for crafting magic items. You cannot ignore other prerequisites for crafting. You cannot alter the enchantments of magic items you have not made yourself, but can improve items you have made. You can use scrolls, wands or other items that create spell effects, including other casters, to provide spells you do not have yourself. Base crafting DC is 15+CL. Item creation feats reduce crafting DC by 10 and have the following benefits in addition to the rulebook effect:

Brew Potion/Scribe Scroll: items cost only 75% to create.
Craft Staff/Wand/Rod: items can be recharged at 75% of base price.
Craft Magic Arms and Armor/Craft Wondrous Item: you can enhance items other people have made as well as your own creations.



Under consideration

Fighter: weapon specific feats (e.g. Weapon Focus) apply to entire weapon class, so long as you have weapon training for it.
Armor training also increases AC by the listed amount. You may choose to have it be armor, shield bonus, of dodge, determined as a swift action at the beginning of your round.


Ranger: All Knowledge skills that grant information about monsters are class skills.
Favored enemy: When confronting an opponent, make an appropriate Knowledge roll. If successful, you gain normal CRB favored enemy bonus (+2 at 1st level, an additional +2 at 5th and every 5 levels thereafter). At 1st and every 5th level from then on you may choose 1 favored enemy type from the list in the CRB that you need not roll to gain this bonus against.
Favored Enemy: humanoid (incl. humans, demihumans, goblins, orcs, gnolls, etc.) is condensed to a single category.


Equipment
Shields grant more shield bonus: buckler +1, light +2, heavy +4, tower +6.

Feats
Dodge grants +1 dodge bonus to AC at 1st level, and an additional +1 at 4th and every 4 levels beyond.

Fold Greater Trip/Bull Rush/Overrun/Disarm/Grapple/Sunder into Improved versions (like 3.5),. Remove Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. Add Maneuver Master as prerequisite.

New Feat:
Maneuver Mastery
Prerequisite: BAB +1
Benefit: Add +1 to your CMB. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, increase this bonus by 1.

Combat Expertise – double penalty in dodge bonus to AC.

Improved Feint: allows feint as swift action (feint is now a move action normally)

Endurance and Diehard are folded together under the name Endurance.

Moonlight Stalker Feint – When successfully feinting an opponent, the target is flat-footed until the beginning of its turn

Run also increases combat speed by 5.


Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization bonus increases at same rate as Power Attack.
Greater Weapon Focus – 1s are no longer auto miss on attacks with this weapon.
Greater Weapon Specialization – Ignore first miss chance or DR each round on attacks made with this weapon.

Improved Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will are folded into the basic versions

Mobility, Shot on the Run and Flyby Attack are removed.

Spring Attack: an split movement on either side of a standard action. Remove Mobility as prerequisite. Also grants Mobility's bonus vs. AoOs provoked from movement.

Point Blank Shot: works within 1st range increment, or minimum of 30 feet.

Weapon Finesse – as CRB but apply Dexterity bonus to damage as well, replacing Strength.

Teamwork feats work even if only one character has the feat. Multiple beings with same feat stack bonuses.

Vital Strike – works on Spring Attack and charge
Improved Vital Strike – Works in conjunction with all other standard action attacks.
Gt. Vital Strike: bonus dice are also multiplied on crit.


All classes get a minimum of 4+ Int mod skill points

Aid Another in combat works with and for ranged attacks as well, need not roll to determine success

Monk and rogue are heavily altered, too much to post here

[Suddo]

Still wouldn't be taking in PF, unless recently some exotic weapons got a boost in use... The exotic weapons aren't worth using.

Same thing in 3.5, well except for the spiked chain...

Really? I mean some martial characters might. Most weapons are still just Martial Weapon +1 die size so although not worth a feat it might be worth a trait.


Maneuver Mastery
Prerequisite: BAB +1
Benefit: Add +1 to your CMB. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, increase this bonus by 1.

How is this working for you? Can martials actually be good at Maneuvers now?

[Tanuki Tales]

I personally feel like just having some way for martial classes to train X amount of time with a new weapon and then make a skill check to be proficient in it makes more sense than forcing them to blow a trait or a feat.

[Suddo]

I personally feel like just having some way for martial classes to train X amount of time with a new weapon and then make a skill check to be proficient in it makes more sense than forcing them to blow a trait or a feat.

Yeah. On the subject does anyone have a homebrew for interesting Exotic Weapons worth the feat?

[Perseus]

Really? I mean some martial characters might. Most weapons are still just Martial Weapon +1 die size so although not worth a feat it might be worth a trait.



How is this working for you? Can martials actually be good at Maneuvers now?

Still not worth a trait.

I'll take +2 to initiative and ... Perhaps the +1 to AC for wearing armor.

The exotic weapons aren't worth wielding compared to normal weapons.

[Coidzor]

Ah, actually, that reminds me of one house rule I've been tossing around.

Getting rid of BAB+1 as a prerequisite for most, maybe even all feats.


Armor training also increases AC by the listed amount. You may choose to have it be armor, shield bonus, of dodge, determined as a swift action at the beginning of your round.

I'd really recommend the option of changing it with a swift action rather than having them be obligated to spend their swift action at the beginning of their turn. Sure, they don't have many options for their swift action, but that's no reason to deny them from the potential of having a swift action to use.

[BWR]

How is this working for you? Can martials actually be good at Maneuvers now?

It's one of the ones under consideration, not actually introduced yet. It should make up for some of the imbalance. At 20th level you're getting a +6 bonus to your CMB, which is pretty nice. I'm not sure I want to remove all the benefits big monsters get to resist maneuvers - they should be hard to wrestle, but a specialist should be able to easily grapple someone of the same size.
I've also toyed with removing deflection to CMD, and either allowing people to add Dex mod to CMB or restricting ability mod to CMD to either Str or Dex - your choice.

[Perseus]

Ah, actually, that reminds me of one house rule I've been tossing around.

Getting rid of BAB+1 as a prerequisite for most, maybe even all feats.



I'd really recommend the option of changing it with a swift action rather than having them be obligated to spend their swift action at the beginning of their turn. Sure, they don't have many options for their swift action, but that's no reason to deny them from the potential of having a swift action to use.

I've played in games where all BAB and Ability Score prerequisites were tossed out the window.

It was fantastic and it went a long way to help people make theme characters without power gaming being the first priority.

Ive never ran a game like that but I think my next game will be like that.

[Gnaeus]

All the polymorph type spells (beast shape, etc) became personal. I think this is a terrible idea because it prevents the wizard from having practical buffs for his teammates, thereby forcing him into a less team oriented niche, so I make them all touch. I'm thinking of going further and putting them (and a couple of other powerful personal spells) into a special category of touch range spells that can't be used on yourself.

I use the 3.5 chart for Summon Nature's ally. Most of the Druid nerfs were justified IMO, but they really gutted SNA, especially in contrast to Summon Monster, which strikes me as very odd. Druids have the weakest spell list of the big 3, but summons should be a strength, not a weakness.

[Tanuki Tales]

Some I have been using, or seriously thinking about using.

Item creation feats are no longer required for crafting magic items. You cannot ignore other prerequisites for crafting. You cannot alter the enchantments of magic items you have not made yourself, but can improve items you have made. You can use scrolls, wands or other items that create spell effects, including other casters, to provide spells you do not have yourself. Base crafting DC is 15+CL. Item creation feats reduce crafting DC by 10 and have the following benefits in addition to the rulebook effect:

Brew Potion/Scribe Scroll: items cost only 75% to create.
Craft Staff/Wand/Rod: items can be recharged at 75% of base price.
Craft Magic Arms and Armor/Craft Wondrous Item: you can enhance items other people have made as well as your own creations.


What made you want to bring this one into play?

[JusticeZero]

So...you went back to older editions where NPCs were basically useless and meant to worship PCs, because they had no chance of winning? :smallconfused:Nah, there are lots of NPCs with one level, even non-adventurers. But Joe the grocer is 0 level, no class skills and 6 hp. I've had games with an organic start from level zero at a small negative xp total before, and it makes it flow through better. If Jackie the barmaid is absolutely terrified by the horror you dragged in, and someone tosses a bit of help with the freakout, that first level of Dread is just a simple levelup.

[Tanuki Tales]

Nah, there are lots of NPCs with one level, even non-adventurers. But Joe the grocer is 0 level, no class skills and 6 hp. I've had games with an organic start from level zero at a small negative xp total before, and it makes it flow through better. If Jackie the barmaid is absolutely terrified by the horror you dragged in, and someone tosses a bit of help with the freakout, that first level of Dread is just a simple levelup.

But what stops even level 5 PCs from acting like feudal lords and imposing their wills on the local populace? And once they hit 10 or above, other than monsters and other adventurers, what stops them from acting like physical gods and attempting to rule the country side as they see fit? :smallconfused:

I'm sorry if your table doesn't react that way, but I'm getting Knights of the Dinner Table flashbacks here.

[Coidzor]

I'm just wondering what kind of class Dread is.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm just wondering what kind of class Dread is.

I think he meant dread as in the feeling. As in, anyone who survived being around the crap PCs tow in their wake is upgraded from nobody schmuck to Adventurer-to-be.

[tzar1990]

But what stops even level 5 PCs from acting like feudal lords and imposing their wills on the local populace? And once they hit 10 or above, other than monsters and other adventurers, what stops them from acting like physical gods and attempting to rule the country side as they see fit? :smallconfused:

I'm sorry if your table doesn't react that way, but I'm getting Knights of the Dinner Table flashbacks here.

He didn't imply that all NPCs were level 0 or 1, just most of them.

And honestly? By level 5, you are really that far above the peasantry. The wizard can throw fire and lightning down upon you, the guards who protect you from goblins and wolves can't even touch the fighter, the Cleric can cure you of all your diseases and injuries or inflict them upon you twofold.

By level 10? The wizard can see anywhere and be anywhere (scrying and teleport), or lay down a cloud that automatically kills anyone (well, anyone less than 3HD, which is the vast majority) who enters it. The cleric can raise the dead, and conjure forth angels and demons to do his bidding. The fighter can take a ballista bolt to the chest without flinching,or fall from terminal velocity and get up to fight.

In a world where the average person is a first level commoner - which IS, by all the guides I've seen, the most common class and level - even a low-level adventurer is a mighty warrior or mage or whatever. Mid-level warriors accomplish deeds which are spoken of in legends. High-level heroes are capable of feats that could well be mistaken for acts of god.

Don't underestimate the impact that an adventurer has on the world around them. The level scale may go up to 20, but that doesn't mean that level 5 is weak - just that there are bigger and nastier monsters out there yet.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tzar, you do understand that a metropolis sized city should have a spellcaster of 13th level, correct? As well as multiple lower level casters down the rung. I'm talking 3.5 here because I haven't found the detailed demographic break ups for Pathfinder yet (is that in Ultimate Campaign per chance?), but I've seen the NPC break down before and it can potentially mudstomp any uppity PCs if the DM/GM feels so persuaded.

Would someone be kind enough to post the NPC breakdown based on population sizes, if they happen to have it? Because I don't to be frank.

[tzar1990]

Tzar, you do understand that a metropolis sized city should have a spellcaster of 13th level, correct? As well as multiple lower level casters down the rung. I'm talking 3.5 here because I haven't found the detailed demographic break ups for Pathfinder yet (is that in Ultimate Campaign per chance?), but I've seen the NPC break down before and it can potentially mudstomp any uppity PCs if the DM/GM feels so persuaded.

Would someone be kind enough to post the NPC breakdown based on population sizes, if they happen to have it? Because I don't to be frank.

Well, yes - but the original quote was about them acting like feudal lords and ruling over the countryside. A metropolis is going to be significantly harder to affect, and much more magical, but the average village in the countryside is going to be very easily conquerable by any group of PCs.

I mean, the 3.5 DMG includes the breakdown of your standard village. 97% of them are first level, and 83% of the population is 1st level peasants. There are 13 people total with actual class levels, 10 of whom are level 1. If I had a group of level 5 PCs say, for whatever reason, that they wanted to take the village over, I wouldn't give the village much of a chance at all.

Now, holding said village is going to be tricky, unless you manage to convince whatever kingdom owned it that either it's not worth the trouble (which should be reasonably easy as long as you promise to keep taxes going and offer up a plausible excuse for doing it). Eventually, a group of higher level characters would get sent to deal with you - but the question included "other than monsters and other adventurers," so we're assuming that Jimmy the deposed feudal lord isn't putting out an "Adventurers Wanted: Take back my village!" notice.

EDIT: The players taking a village nearly happened in a game I play in, and the only reason they didn't was because we didn't actually WANT to control our own town. We killed the town's high-level cleric (she was secretly evil), got the local wizard to like us more than the local rulership, and then played on the ruler's paranoia and fear to get him alone and assassinate him (your guards are conspiring against you! you can only trust us...) We were, maybe, level 4 at that point, and not particularily optimized, and by the end we were the biggest dogs in town. We were local heroes for fighting off a zombie attack, the only decent healer around was our party cleric, and no one weas going to object to the death of a petty and murderous little bureaucrat.

At level 10, where we are now? The wizard could cast cloudkill on the mansion, let it roll through, then march in and declare himself High King of ****sville; Population: Terrified Peasants. Or at least he could if the town hadn't been razed to the ground by orcs after we left.

[Coidzor]

Eh? The local lord isn't included in the breakdown of a village's population as far as I can recall. :smallconfused: Generally because they don't live in villages.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well, yes - but the original quote was about them acting like feudal lords and ruling over the countryside. A metropolis is going to be significantly harder to affect, and much more magical, but the average village in the countryside is going to be very easily conquerable by any group of PCs.

I mean, the 3.5 DMG includes the breakdown of your standard village. 97% of them are first level, and 83% of the population is 1st level peasants. There are 13 people total with actual class levels, 10 of whom are level 1. If I had a group of level 5 PCs say, for whatever reason, that they wanted to take the village over, I wouldn't give the village much of a chance at all.

Check again. They give the breakdown for the average hamlet, which caps out at 400 people. A village is 401 to 900 people and can have as high as a 5th level Cleric or Druid and a 7th level Rogue or Fighter. And though it's a low shot, a hamlet or thorp specifically have a 5% chance of having a 10th (or 11th for hamlet) level Ranger or a 13th (or 14th for hamlet) level Druid.

And as the rules denote, for every NPC with PC class levels above second, they have twice as many at each rung below that. So a Village with a 5th level Cleric or Druid has 2 2nd level and 4 1st level of either class and with a 7th level Rogue or Fighter has 2 3rd level and 4 1st level of either class.

In the case of those lucky thorps and hamlets, they not only have allies who are entering mid to high levels, but they also would have 2 5th level, 4 2nd level, and 8 1st level for Ranger or 2 6th level, 4 3rd level and 8 1st level for Druid.

This isn't much of a barrier for 10th level adventurers, but it's something that potentially stops would-be 5th level warlords.

And all of this is assuming that the metropolises are going to ignore dangerous 5th to 10th level PCs who are going around playing Gengis Khan.

Edit:

I was wrong about the metropolis/wizard thing though, by the way. The lowest level their highest level wizard should be is 13th level; they can have as high as a 16th level wizard.