Rule question about ability penalties

[Wacky89]

If a spell inflicts a penalty to an ability score, would it be able to reduce the targets ability score to 0, if nothing else is specified?

[Nirhael]

If there's nothing else specified, yes it can.

[Yomega]

What spell do you have in mid?

But with what you said there then yes it can

What effect having effectiy 0 in a stat would be Im not sure

[Diarmuid]

The impact of having a 0 score varies from ability to ability and is defined in the description of each ability score in PHB.

[Yomega]

Yes but he mentioned ability score penalty not damage or drain

[tyckspoon]

Yes but he mentioned ability score penalty not damage or drain

0 stat is 0 stat. D&D doesn't *care* how the number got there unless some specific effect says so (like the clause in Ray of Enfeeblement about not being able to go below 1. That's a specific restriction on Ray of Enfeeblement only.) The main difference would be that a penalty is a lot easier to remove than damage or drain.

[Wacky89]

What spell do you have in mid?

But with what you said there then yes it can

What effect having effectiy 0 in a stat would be Im not sure

Shivering Touch, I house ruled it to a penalty since the spell doesn't make sense as is. Do you think the spell is balanced as a penalty or does it need to be like Ray of Enfeeblement?

[Yomega]

I dont realy see how the spell as is doesnt make sence but keeping with the original spell yes it could definatly reduce your dex to 0 making you unable to move (altho a fairly short duration 1 round per level) the guy is going to get back up if you dont deal with him

The short duration and the fact dex of 0 isnt imeadiatly lethal makes me belive its balanced for 3rd level spels

[Curmudgeon]

It's not that Shivering Touch "doesn't make sense"; it's merely that it doesn't follow the usual D&D spell conventions. The conventions hold that penalties have specified durations, but damage durations are always the standard (1 point regained per day). Shivering Touch deals damage with a short duration.

[Phelix-Mu]

The short duration and the fact dex of 0 isnt imeadiatly lethal makes me belive its balanced for 3rd level spels

The problem is that non-level increasing Empower and Maximize exist, which can create a pretty powerful weapon. Metamagic rods, Sudden Empower, that spellscale thing. Bam, one hit and down goes the big bad.

That's a little silly for a spell available at 5th level. I've played all the way up to epic, and my caster friends were still whipping it out from time to time at 20th, when I was foolish enough to toss that thing at them with Dex under 20.:smallannoyed:

[Maginomicon]

Ability penalties cannot reduce a score to 0. They can only reduce it to 1. Ability drain and ability damage apply before ability penalties (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293001), so no combination of an ability penalty and ability damage/drain can reduce a score to 0 (unless the damage/drain would reduce it to 0 on its own).

The source for this is that every mention of an ability penalty (such as touch of idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm)) explicitly says that it can't reduce it to 0. Any instance of this not being mentioned explicitly is an editing error.

P.S. Any instance of ability damage being mentioned in an effect with a duration may seem ambiguous at first glance, but the effect's duration actually just applies to the rest of the effect's effects and NOT the ability damage because ability damage explicitly has its own duration by its nature.

[ShurikVch]

The source for this is that every mention of an ability penalty (such as touch of idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm)) explicitly says that it can't reduce it to 0. How about racial/template/feat/corruption/deformity penalty?

[Yomega]

Ability penalties cannot reduce a score to 0. They can only reduce it to 1. Ability drain and ability damage apply before ability penalties (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293001), so no combination of an ability penalty and ability damage/drain can reduce a score to 0 (unless the damage/drain would reduce it to 0 on its own).

The source for this is that every mention of an ability penalty (such as touch of idiocy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/touchOfIdiocy.htm)) explicitly says that it can't reduce it to 0. Any instance of this not being mentioned explicitly is an editing error.

P.S. Any instance of ability damage being mentioned in an effect with a duration may seem ambiguous at first glance, but the effect's duration actually just applies to the rest of the effect's effects and NOT the ability damage because ability damage explicitly has its own duration by its nature.

This is a mistake a lot of people make just because every spell has a similar wording does not make it the rule this is a case of specific beats general the "convention" as Curmudgeon stated it is true that's how spells of this type usually work however if a specific spell goes against that, namely shivering touch, then the spell works as it is worded baring errata.

As for ability damage recovering at the rate of 1/day that rule would still apply if for example you managed to make the duration of this spell last longer than 1 day, the spell has no effect other than damage and spell resistance applies so at high level they at least have a chance to resist.

[Maginomicon]

This is a mistake a lot of people make just because every spell has a similar wording does not make it the rule this is a case of specific beats general the "convention" as Curmudgeon stated it is true that's how spells of this type usually work however if a specific spell goes against that, namely shivering touch, then the spell works as it is worded baring errata.

In Theoretical Optimization, maybe, but not in Practical Optimization. Any GM with sufficient system mastery should have developed enough basic design sense to understand that often there are simply editing errors and that when it's ambiguous you should always follow your gut.

When you think hard about it, your gut probably tells you that shivering touch (and lesser shivering touch) was meant to say an ability penalty, not ability damage. A 3d6 ability penalty is much closer to the correct balance level for a 3rd-level spell (please don't derail this thread on this issue, I'm just making a point). Compare this to Touch of idiocy (a 2nd-level spell) that also does 3d6-worth of penalties but splits it up into 3 different ability scores.

[Yomega]

In Theoretical Optimization, maybe, but not in Practical Optimization. Any GM with sufficient system mastery should have developed enough basic design sense to understand that often there are simply editing errors and that when it's ambiguous you should always follow your gut.

When you think hard about it, your gut probably tells you that shivering touch (and lesser shivering touch) was meant to say an ability penalty, not ability damage. A 3d6 ability penalty is much closer to the correct balance level for a 3rd-level spell (please don't derail this thread on this issue, I'm just making a point). Compare this to Touch of idiocy (a 2nd-level spell) that also does 3d6-worth of penalties but splits it up into 3 different ability scores.

I agree with you on this one as the OP said he was houseruleing it to be a penalty anyways

as a note to your own post you linked altho I dont claim to have perfect system knowledge there is no reference to any order of effects being aplyed

From the SRD
Ability Damage
Ability Damaged
The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.


Ability Drain
Ability Drained
The character has permanently lost 1 or more ability score points. The character can regain drained points only through magical means. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.

There is no noted or implied reason why these should not stack

And as always the rule of fun should always win over even the most obscene RAW or RAI