Help me pick some books to give as a present to a 14-year-old [Archive]

HeadlessMermaid

2014-01-19, 05:47 PM

My Goal: to lure an innocent child, who currently spends her time reading Twilight-esque Young Adult books, to the terrifying world of serious literature. Mwahahaha.

So, I'd like to slowly introduce my 14-year-old niece to Pushkin and Dostoyevsky, Franz Kafka and Herman Hesse, Ursula Le Guin and Philip K. ****, 1984 and The Grapes of Wrath. But I don't want to freak her out and, more importantly, I don't want to bore her. That would be awful. The whole point of reading is to enjoy it. I'm fine with taking it slow. I just want to give her a little push.

The authors and titles above are only indicative, I'd obviously go for something else if I thought she'd like it better. Note that I have no earthly idea at what age kids read what these days, and I suspect it depends on the individual anyway. But individuals don't read stuff they've never heard of, or been handed, or had access to, so it's all very relative.

I would appreciate very much some suggestions. Either directly, something in the vein of what I've mentioned above, or a stepping stone of sorts, to ease the transition from Twilight to the good stuff. I'm listing the books she already likes, to get an idea of what else she'd plausibly enjoy.

Books she likes/has asked for:
Jocelyn Davies - A Beautiful Dark series
Stephenie Meyer - Twilight series
Philip Pullman - His Dark Materials series
(I swear, I look at her library and it seems like she only reads series. Why do kids do that??)

Books she has read for classes and claims to like (but I can't help noticing that she's never picked anything similar of her own accord):

Mary Shelley - Frankenstein
Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray
Jack London - White Fang

Books I've bought her so far, and have zero feedback on:
J.K. Rowling - Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone
Michael Ende - The Neverending Story
Mary Shelley - Frankenstein (she'd read a simplified version in English, I bought her an unabridged translation in our native language)
John William Polidori - The Vampyre (an edition which includes some background on how this story - and Frankenstein - was written)

Movies she likes:

Harry Potter series
The Hobbit series
The Hunger Games series (halfheartedly, though that's only because it's becoming more popular than Harry Potter and she's taken it personally. :smalltongue:)

Thank you very much in advance. :smallsmile:

P.S. I once knew how to bypass the forum filter (naturally for righteous purposes only, such as writing the name of a famous sci-fi author), but it doesn't work anymore. Any ideas???
EDIT: That one was asked and answered, thanks.

BWR

2014-01-19, 06:04 PM

Tanith Lee's Blood Opera trilogy. What all other writers of modern day vampires wish their stories were: well-written, interesting characters, actually a bit creepy (in ways other than how Twilight is creepy).
You might try Lee's Secret Books of Paradys series as well. Lee writes Gothic horror better than just about anyone still working in the field.
Her Tales of the Flat Earth are also excellent but are a lot more mythic and fantastic in nature.
Actually, just about everything I've read by Lee is good.

You might try her on Anne Rice if she likes the modern moody vampire thingy.

At her age I had finished everything by Edgar Allen Poe and was nearly done with Lovecraft.
You have LeGuin on the list, how about "The Lathe of Heaven"?

Charles de Lint writes excellent urban fantasy (in the meaning of faeries and mystery).

HeadlessMermaid

2014-01-19, 06:34 PM

Thanks for the suggestions, BWR!

Well, let's see. Tanith Lee hasn't been translated in Greek (except one book, not included in those you mentioned, something about pirates, apparently).

Ann Rice unfortunately suffers from some god-awful translations, so that's out.

Charles de Lint, I'm not sure about the translations, I'll have to check. And it may be good (I haven't read any of his books), but to be honest, it's the sort of thing I'm trying to avoid. Unless it counts as a transition thingy.

I haven't read The Lathe of Heaven. :smallredface: Actually, I've bought it for a friend, and I'm waiting for her to finish it, so that I can borrow it. :smalltongue: It may be a good choice, though, I generally trust Le Guin blindly. :)

As for Poe and Lovecraft, yes, I think she'd like that, and I can find some pretty good anthologies. And hey, if she digs horror, I remember being very fond of Clive Barker's Weaveworld. Though I'm not sure if it's appropriate for her age.

Cool. But I'm still at a loss about how, if at all, we'll ever get to Dostoyevsky. :smalltongue:

BWR

2014-01-19, 06:48 PM

I don't really know anything about Greek translations of these authors, sad to say.
Lee's Piratica stories are decent, but far from her best work, and I think it's the sort of story that works best if you're fairly young or solidly grown up, but not so much in your mid to late teens.
And I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a transition thingy" regarding de Lint.
Edit: it occurs to me you might want to see if Sergei Lukyanenko's "Night Watch" is available. Those five books (Night Watch, Day Watch, Twilight Watch, LAst Watch and New Watch) are very good.

Ibrinar

2014-01-19, 06:55 PM

About series, I feel trilogies like His Dark Materials barely qualify as a series. And why? Because single books rarely even have over 1k pages, barely worth reading! (Kidding.)

Based on the book and movie list she likes containing fantasy and your author list how about Earthsea from Ursula Le Guin, I was probably 12 when I read it.

Or if she is in the mode for supernatural romance you can always go for urban fantasy, anything with a female protagonist has a good chance of a hot supernatural love interest, and many of them aren't as creepy as Edward.

Though I wouldn't worry about her liking twilight, unless she thinks it's the best thing ever. I think most people have enjoyed or are still enjoying things which aren't very good.

I would just list my favourites if I tried to suggest books so I won't. Mentioned books aren't all that similar to each other when deducing their fantasy elements, so I can't really guess what would work best for her. (Well the first two are similar in being supernatural romance/urban fantasy with a female protag.(Don't know the first one, only the plot summary.) Then there is His Dark Material, which does have a female protag, but aside from that it's not all that similar. Though it tells me she doesn't mind a book with a anti religious message.^^ )

Seerow

2014-01-19, 07:12 PM

Mistborn. At least the first book, maybe the original trilogy.

druid91

2014-01-19, 07:19 PM

For something of the same vein as twilight, but significantly less creepy there's Amelia Atwater-Rhodes. Still creepy at times though.

As far as good books go, Enders Game is pretty good, +1 to the Lovecraft, for more of the serials, there's Evil Genius and it's sequels.

Terraoblivion

2014-01-19, 08:18 PM

I'd honestly suggest letting her work it out herself rather than try to sway her towards "proper", canonically respected literature. Not only do people need to form their own taste and the meddling of adults being condescending about the books kids read is one of the big things turning kids away from reading, I just don't see how a list of book that mostly deal strongly with the issues of the day of the early 20th century will be terribly relevant in the modern day. People can and do still enjoy them, but it hardly seems like something that is somehow better for people to read.

Learning to read critically and to figure out how to judge whether something interests you both seem more useful than learning to read the right things. For example, learning to spot the skeeviness of romance in Twilight or the overt atheist agenda, whether that's good or bad, of His Dark Materials or learning to search for information on a book or how to interpret a backcover blurb. In general, a more useful goal is to help her become a more educated reader, and for that matter viewer and listener, who is able to critically engage with works rather than turning her towards a specific set of books. It will help her find enjoyment from things too as she becomes better at picking things she'll actually enjoy.

However, to that end a diversity of literature is very helpful, including a diversity of qualities. If anything, I'd say that if Greek schools are anything like Danish ones, she'll get plenty of serious literature there to get used to that style, and other areas could do with more focus. A diversity in cultural backgrounds of authors is an obvious example, rather than mostly just reading works by middle aged Anglosaxon authors living in the US or the UK. Especially non-European perspectives can be helpful, but also ones from the perspectives of European writers who aren't Anglosaxon or from minorities in an Anglosaxon country. Reading things that aren't literature at all, but can help inform understanding such as basic history, mythology and travelogues can help too, though, of course, only if she wants to. Comics and manga might be quite worthwhile too as they can help build awareness of the nature of writing as a medium by using it in a very different way and a different relationship.

However, above all, focus on what she actually enjoys and not your plans for making her a "better" reader. Anything done for pleasure needs to be about that above all else, especially since any actual learning is generally better handled by non-fiction books, documentaries, debates and personal instruction than through literature.

Still, these are things that I think are more helpful in making someone a better, more perceptive reader than simply trying to turn them towards a specific canon of literature. Unless you're simply trying to perpetuate that specific cultural formation rather than actually educating her in how to be a critical reader, I guess.

Also, for your question about how to write Philip K. ****, you simply pick the color black from the menubefore hitting the key of one of the letters in ****. The code will break the censor. It's also specifically something I've been told you have permission to do when I had a reference to the country of ***** censored back in spring.

Kitten Champion

2014-01-19, 09:51 PM

I would just ask her. I could suggest a number of titles which I think are good or have general appeal, but if she's not really motivated she won't pick it up.

My father brought me to the library whenever he was looking for his next mystery fix, I'd usually find something - good or bad - to check out when he was done. Given that I picked it out myself I was usually inclined to try it, at least for a bit.

Seonor

2014-01-19, 10:12 PM

Since she liked His Dark Materials she might also like Ruby in the Smoke by the same author? It is historical rather than fantasy, but IMO one of the best of Pullman's works.

Some of Roald Dahl's short stories can be very creepy* and can be a good stepping stone to Poe.

*Lamb to the Slaughter

Pokonic

2014-01-19, 11:36 PM

I think she could enjoy most of Eoin Colfer's work pretty well. It's still young adult-ish, but he's one of the better writer's and I'v seen kid's her age eat them up.

MLai

2014-01-20, 03:50 AM

14 y/o girl, likes gothic romance?
Please introduce her to the mothers of all gothic romance the Bronte sisters.
Read Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, and Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte.

Manga Shoggoth

2014-01-20, 04:32 AM

If she enjoyed the film, then send The Hobbit in her direction.

If she meshes well with series, then The Diskworld series is worth a try - but she will probably be better starting at least at Wyrd Sisters, Soul Music or Moving Pictures (takes on Shakespeare, the music industry and the film industry respectively) rather than looking at his earlier stories.

Sith_Happens

2014-01-20, 04:58 AM

More a general recommendation that a "gateway to 'serious' literature," but Spice and Wolf by Isuna Hasekura. Romance + Medieval economics with light supernatural elements. I technically haven't read it myself yet (though I will as soon as I have that sort of time), but the anime adaptation was simply phenomenal.

The one issue I see is that I'm 99% sure it's only in Japanese and English, but I briefly flipped through one of the English translations a few weeks ago and didn't see anything particularly more difficult than what's in this thread (the original Japanese text is a so-called "light novel" with a deliberately-accessible reading level, something that the translators obviously carried over).

EDIT: Also it's written from the male lead's viewpoint, don't know if that'd be a turnoff for her.

Zrak

2014-01-20, 05:17 AM

Since you mentioned Dostoevsky and Pushkin, Lermontov might be a good place to start if you want to get her started on the Russian lit train. His A Hero of Our Time is one of the most underrated works in Russian literature, far ahead of its time in a lot of formal senses, and with underlying meaning and passion that transcend that time. The Rugged Frontier framing, replete with beautiful nature writing, might suit her tastes if she really did like White Fang, and you couldn't really ask for a broodier, more byronic hero than Pechorin. The tone is typically bleak; Pechorin is a "hero" only ironically, and his fatalism is probably his best trait. Even more than Pushkin, Lermontov represents the dawn of the themes that writers from the next generation would address, especially in the social discontent at the heart of the work; the main difference is that Lermontov never found the hope behind his despair and righteous indignation that would characterize those he influenced.

The only Pullman work I can stand is Clockwork, which I very much like. So on the one hand, I'd recommend it, but I suppose people who generally like Pullman might not like it.

I'm not sure where else to go for recommendations primarily because I'm not sure to what extent "objectionable" content is an issue.

I just don't see how a list of book that mostly deal strongly with the issues of the day of the early 20th century will be terribly relevant in the modern day.

Yeah, now that there's no more poverty or prescriptive gender roles or racism or corruption or war or environmental degradation or any of that sort of thing anymore, none of those books from the early twentieth century are relevant.

Ibrinar

2014-01-20, 09:46 AM

Learning to read critically and to figure out how to judge whether something interests you both seem more useful than learning to read the right things. For example, learning to spot the skeeviness of romance in Twilight or the overt atheist agenda, whether that's good or bad, of His Dark Materials or learning to search for information on a book or how to interpret a backcover blurb. In general, a more useful goal is to help her become a more educated reader, and for that matter viewer and listener, who is able to critically engage with works rather than turning her towards a specific set of books. It will help her find enjoyment from things too as she becomes better at picking things she'll actually enjoy.

Why would you want to learn that? I actively ignore all real world messages in books. The Dark Materials thing? I know about it, but it's not anything I paid any attention to while reading.
I just consider fictional books one of the worst ways to convey a message. In many cases it's an argument not any more complex than something I read many times on some fora, but somehow there are always people impressed by books having some message even if the message is quite unimpressive.
Then there is the factor that it's hardly a good way to make actually good arguments for your position, it is however good for making appeals to emotions. In the best case it's an over dimensional metaphor or a gigantic what if.
Yes other people enjoy analysing books that way, but if you make someone like me better at recognizing the atheistic tones of His Dark Materials or the religious ones from anything C.S. Lewis (Narnia) you just make it harder for them to ignore it and enjoy the story.

Or to make it short before trying to teach someone to read critical make sure that it's something they want to do.

CarpeGuitarrem

2014-01-20, 09:52 AM

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-20, 10:06 AM

At 14, I might recommend the Dispossessed, if you're looking at LeGuin's work. Some of Samuel Delaney's shorter works would also be a good segue into his catalogue as well - Nova or Babel-17 are both quick and engaging reads, and aren't quite as demanding as something like Dhalgren.

How about some magical realism? One Hundred Years of Solitude, by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, is a classic for a reason, and a fantastic choice. If she likes it, she can go from there to the rest of his catalogue, or branch out to authors like Borges and Carpentier.

Similarly, I might offer up Norwegian Wood, by Haruki Murakami. It's an absolutely gorgeous coming of age novel, though very sad. If she likes it, you can suggest exploring his more surreal works.

I also might get her on board with Jonathan Lethem. Motherless Brooklyn was the first book I'd ever read by him, and it's still one of my favorites, so I'd recommend that for a start. His work runs the gamut, though, from slim sci-fi novels to longer, sprawling works.

And then there are the satirists. Catch-22 is a good place to start, as is almost anything by Vonnegut.

aberratio ictus

2014-01-20, 10:08 AM

14 y/o girl, likes gothic romance?
Please introduce her to the mothers of all gothic romance the Bronte sisters.
Read Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, and Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte.
This is a very clever and worthy suggestion.

I agree wholeheartedly.

On the other hand, if you want to show her the works of Dostojewskij, why, pray tell, don't you just do so? I mean, they're not exactly hard to read.
Which ones do you personally like best?
I would, of course, advise against the brothers Karamasow (his worst work, in my opinion, and the most dreary, except for the excellent Grand Inquisitor, but you can give this one to her in a standalone version, if you like), but something like "the idiot" or, considering her tastes, maybe "the demons" (Is that what the book is called in English? "Evil Spirits", possibly, I suppose you know my meaning) might be the right way to go.

The shorter ones by Kafka could work as well, maybe in a little collection. I don't know if his works would really be to her tastes, though.

BWR

2014-01-20, 10:11 AM

Throught my school days and most of my university days I detested analyzing literature. I was of the opinion that doing so removed all fun from reading and looking for 'deeper meanings' was stupid and often pointless, thanks to some teachers who tried to overanalyze things.
It wasn't until one lecturer pointed out that analyzing literature is nothing more than trying to understand the work in question. In some cases the details are unimportant and the work is generally comprehensible and (un)enjoyable without them. Other times they are crucial to understanding exactly what is going on.
You might read the Narnia stories on their own and enjoy them, but if you don't see the (blatantly obvious) Christian allegory there, you are missing a lot. You don't have to have read or know about "Jane Eyre" in order to understand the gist "Wide sargasso sea", but it helps. If you read "Animal Farm" and don't get the Russian Revolution aspect you are missing out. If you read Eliot's "Journey of the Magi" and think he's talking about random wizards, you aren't understanding the poem correctly.

Like it or not, some writers make allegorical works and actively ignoring that aspect of it, or actively refusing to dig bit deeper and understand what the author is actually trying to say is....well, it's your choice but I think it misses most of the point.

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-20, 10:15 AM

I agree wholeheartedly.

On the other hand, if you want to show her the works of Dostojewskij, why, pray tell, don't you just do so? I mean, they're not exactly hard to read.
Which ones do you personally like best?
I would, of course, advise against the brothers Karamasow (his worst work, in my opinion, and the most dreary, except for the excellent Grand Inquisitor, but you can give this one to her in a standalone version, if you like), but something like "the idiot" or, considering her tastes, maybe "the demons" (Is that what the book is called in English? "Evil Spirits", possibly, I suppose you know my meaning) might be the right way to go.

I read Crime and Punishment when I was 13, and thought it was a fine entry into his work, although it's not my favorite. I agree that Brothers Karamazov might not be the best entry, but my favorite still to this day is probably Notes from Underground. That might not be a terrible place to start, especially if she shows any interest in Kafka or any of the existentialists.

aberratio ictus

2014-01-20, 10:22 AM

True, if she does. I liked Crime and Punishment at that age as well, and it's still one of my favourites. I'd agree that it would be a good possibility to get her hooked on Dostojewskij as well. Maybe even a better one than the demons, come to think of it.

I must admit, though, that I'm not sure if I'd have enjoyed "Notes from the Underground" at that age. Probably not, but people are different, after all.

On the other hand, the first one I've ever read was "The brothers Karamasow", and I endured. :smallwink:

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-20, 10:24 AM

I was maybe... 16 when I read Notes from Underground? I loved it then, although I had also already read some Dostoyevsky, and was also on a big existentialism kick at the time. But yeah, I can see why it might be off-putting to some. Just depends on her taste.

Terraoblivion

2014-01-20, 10:55 AM

Yeah, now that there's no more poverty or prescriptive gender roles or racism or corruption or war or environmental degradation or any of that sort of thing anymore, none of those books from the early twentieth century are relevant.

Only at the top level. The prescriptive gender roles facing women today have changed quite a bit, the challenges facing the environment are almost unrecognizable as being related to the ones of the days of coal firing for those of us not living in China. Details matter, context matter and presentation in relations that people don't need to read a history book to understand matter. Apart from the author themselves, the primary thing any given work of art reflects is the culture it was made in. Any profound insights it will have are about the culture and context in which it was made, not about any higher truths. The most likely thing somebody without significant experience with the period in question or a passion for literature as an art form will get out of it is that the language is old-fashioned and it's about old stuff. More emotional readers might also get to feel sorry for poor people in general or feel that the past sure sucked, which aren't really very deep or profound insights.

Basically, these books do nothing about the actual inequalities, oppressions and stifling social ideals of today, all they can really do other than provide enjoyment is giving messages so general as to be utterly banal to modern people. At least unless read as historical source material. Specificity is needed for something to have meaning and substance and specificity about issues divorced from the modern world won't have meaning and substance except for scholarly use. This is the primary problem I have with people insisting on art having inherent meaning, any specific meaning will be lost outside its context and general meaning tends to be banal because it's general.

If you want literature about the current day poverty, read something about the way the global north exploits the global south or the way the suburbs suck life and wealth out of cities in the US or how temp agencies undermine labor rights. It's going to address the actual issues with poverty in the modern world better than reading about farms in the dustbowl during the great depression or how old-fashioned industrial workers were exploited. Those cultural forms are gone and all there's left is a general comment that pretty much amounts to "poverty is bad, m'kay" which is really not a very interesting observation, especially not when it's derived from evidence that has no bearing on the current world.

Basically, my point is that people talking about the deep points of high art are shallow and unwilling to engage with actual issues in a complex enough way to have anything interesting to say. That and that canonizing something as a priori good kills debate about it and reduces it to custodial pieces for people to marvel at.

Why would you want to learn that? I actively ignore all real world messages in books. The Dark Materials thing? I know about it, but it's not anything I paid any attention to while reading.
I just consider fictional books one of the worst ways to convey a message. In many cases it's an argument not any more complex than something I read many times on some fora, but somehow there are always people impressed by books having some message even if the message is quite unimpressive.
Then there is the factor that it's hardly a good way to make actually good arguments for your position, it is however good for making appeals to emotions. In the best case it's an over dimensional metaphor or a gigantic what if.
Yes other people enjoy analysing books that way, but if you make someone like me better at recognizing the atheistic tones of His Dark Materials or the religious ones from anything C.S. Lewis (Narnia) you just make it harder for them to ignore it and enjoy the story.

Or to make it short before trying to teach someone to read critical make sure that it's something they want to do.

You can be critical of something while still enjoying it. You can even recognize that something is outright bad while enjoying it. However, I wasn't presenting it as something to force the girl to do, just that if you're insistent on making her a better reader teaching her to be a critical reader is more useful than teaching them to mindlessly repeat the superiority of an established canon of literature.

I do believe being a critical reader is better than being an uncritical one, what you experience as the norm influences you and can be used to manipulate you politically. A lack of critical filter in a lot of people is one of the primary reasons repressive and retrograde ideas are allowed to persist. Being able to read critically also means you're more likely to demand that the worst aspects get changed. That black people in mainstream movies don't get the option of being a token side character or played by Will Smith. That Arabs get roles other than terrorists. That less than 80% of all background characters in crowd scenes are men. Basically, reading critically is necessary to make you aware of bull**** going on in the media and demand change. Otherwise we'll simply maintain the current hegemonies and structures of power and oppression.

We'll also likely make a lot of kids feel horrible about themselves for not being ridiculously overmuscled or excessively curvy. It'll help avoid people falling into abusive relationships due to following absurd notions of romance from fiction. And on a personal level, it'll make it easier for you to identify stuff you'll like and to put down stuff that you aren't really enjoying, making you waste less time on entertainment you're not enjoying.

Lioness

2014-01-20, 11:31 AM

At 14 she may be a little old, but I'd suggest Tamora Pierce's Lioness quartet. They're perhaps aimed at an older audience than the others, though most people recommend them for 11-12 year olds.

Seconding Jane Eyre...loved it. Also maybe some Robin Hobb?

aberratio ictus

2014-01-20, 11:35 AM

Terraoblivion - the lady doth assume too much, methinks.

The OP is asking for suggestions on what to gift her niece in order to introduce her to "serious literature". That is, by itself, arguably not a bad request.
People post some recommendations, and then you chime in with that awfully hostile attitude, accusing people to be shallow, not having anything interesting to say and not even having read the books they want to discuss without knowing them, which is hard to not take personally.

I agree with your point concerning critical reading. What makes you believe that everybody liking Gogol or Tolstoi or Kafka or whatever isn't a critical reader? I like Dostojewskij, yet, In my previous post, I said I consider "the brothers Karamasow" a dreary affair. I like classical music, yet I think Chopin is hilariously overrated.
I don't think you marching into this thread and lumping everybody together is a very fair manner of advocating your point.

Does literature from the last century or even older have still relevance today? You'd say no, I'd say yes, and I'd further say it surely is debatable, but this thread is just as surely not the right place to discuss that.

People have different tastes. Imagine you have a niece, and want to buy her a book as a present. Why not introduce her to something new, something you enjoy and she might as well?
The Op's niece can still be taught how to be a critical reader while she's reading old and "canonically respected" literature. Maybe even moreso, in some people's opinions.
Why do you simply assume that's not the OP's intention? No need to simply assume she wants to brainwash her niece.

Ibrinar

2014-01-20, 12:02 PM

One thing about classical literature: Don't forget that you can get the kindle edition of works like Crime and Punishment, Pride and Prejudice, Wuthering Heights etc. for free on amazon (well amazon.de that is, but I would expect similar things for other versions) and the authors tend to be dead. So I consider gifting them a bit wasteful. However of course some people prefer paper, I just think it's something good to know before buying them.

Terraoblivion

2014-01-20, 12:06 PM

The specific thing I consider shallow is things like Zrak's insistence that these older books are relevant because they talk about extremely broad topics that still exist today, but in radically different forms, not enjoyment of older literature itself. Enjoyment is just that, enjoyment and doesn't need any appeal to profundity to justify itself. I think that it's bad form to push your taste on others, but that's a different matter from your personal enjoyment.

Saying that the rural poverty of the grapes of wrath is terribly similar to anything experienced in the west today is to show an abject lack of knowledge of history and if you want to understand rural poverty in developing countries you'll probably be better served reading excellent works from developing countries. To make it more specific, it's the idea of transhistorical and transcultural profundity due to vague similarities that I consider shallow. Because vague similarities are just that, vague.

As for the relevance of older literature in the modern world, I can see two very obvious ways it's relevant. One is that a lot of people enjoy it which all on its own means that people should continue to print and sell it. Serving the enjoyment of people is quite possibly the highest purpose of literature as far as I'm concerned. The other aspect is scholarly interest. Art is an excellent set of sources for cultural historians and is obviously the topic of study for art historians and literary historians. Older art that has been influential absolutely needs to remain available for those purposes and much that hasn't been influential or ever considered good also needs to be available because mass culture is important in understanding past societies as well. Where I don't think it's relevant is in ascribing it any unique value or profound insight into the world that is better obtained through older art than through other venues.

I'll also agree that not only can knowledge of older art coexist with being a critical reader, knowing a wide variety of older art will help you become a more critical reader. Diversity is in my opinion the single most important thing in expanding people's minds and understanding of what is and isn't possible in art and what people have done and older, western art is as valid there as anything else. My point was that instead of imparting and repeating a set canon of older works by white, predominantly male, authors it's more important to teach critical skills at reading. The other point is that since schools favor this art a typical student will get to experience it anyway, but a lot of the diversity of art you need to seek out yourself outside of schools so focusing on that will be more productive.

To further elaborate on my position, my problem is ultimately with three things. One is the act of canonizing some literature as worthy and other as unworthy. Another is the way that many people, though not really in this thread, use the act of reading "worthy" literature to present themselves as superior to others due to doing so. The third thing is the selection of the worthy literature being highly biased towards the taste and interests of an older, relatively well-off white audience that favors older literature that's mostly by white people, mostly male and mostly middle or upper class. Focusing narrowly on the canon stifles non-white voices, poor voices and, to a lesser degree, female voices, it also serves to maintain the current social and cultural hegemony and naturalizes the taste of the dominant strata of society as right, proper, natural and unmarked, while sequestering the taste of other groups in marked ghettos such as "black literature" or "gay literature" or similar.

Finally, I think that canonization of a work does it a disservice. It forces it on a lot of people who aren't interested and grow to hate it due to the selection of literature in schools. It also kills public discourse and room for interpreting it by putting that power in the hands of cultural gatekeepers passing judgement regardless of the views of a wider audience and turns the work from a living work for people to engage with into a defined work that people get discouraged from personal interpretation of. At the same time it does a disservice to other works that don't get studied and blocks funding and access to non-canonized art that might have scholarly interest. Finding old penny dreadfuls to study Victorian culture on a scale large enough to make generalized findings of the fiction of the masses at the time can be quite rough and older chapbooks are virtually all gone because of the focus on the canonized literature.

aberratio ictus

2014-01-20, 12:14 PM

You have an interesting viewpoint. Not one that I share completely, but an interesting one.

Still, I don't think this is the right place to discuss things like this, it would - and has - lead the thread astray.

It is doubtful that the OP aims to "push her tastes on others" any more than a father who watches Star Wars with his son for the first time, or my mother when she bought a new kind of chocolate bars this morning. You assuming this is hardly fair, in my opinion. Just read her first post again, and notice that the beginning is very likely meant to be taken humourously.

Pronounceable

2014-01-20, 12:17 PM

Has she shown any interest at all in mythology? It's usually just a few steps away from default fairy tales many (most?) children are exposed to and (presumably?) enjoy. There's bound to be really good versions of Illiad and Odyssey over there and upon liking those, she might figure that since that Homer guy was very famous, maybe those other famous dudes (Shakespeare, Dostoyevski, Kafka, etc) might be enjoyable too.

Or it might backfire and she'd decide to hate everything about classical literature, but I doubt someone who likes books with vampires in them would dislike mythology.
...
Useless sidenote: When I was at that age, Greek/Roman epic stuff had proven to be awesome and One Thousand and One Nights was just as cool in a different way, I'd started to get into that newfangled elves and orcs business (after finishing up some other misc. mythological books) which seemed pretty similar to the cool stuff. Then again, I'd always harbored an inordinate amount of love for fairy tales from toddlerhood.

warty goblin

2014-01-20, 12:47 PM

The specific thing I consider shallow is things like Zrak's insistence that these older books are relevant because they talk about extremely broad topics that still exist today, but in radically different forms, not enjoyment of older literature itself. Enjoyment is just that, enjoyment and doesn't need any appeal to profundity to justify itself. I think that it's bad form to push your taste on others, but that's a different matter from your personal enjoyment.

Saying that the rural poverty of the grapes of wrath is terribly similar to anything experienced in the west today is to show an abject lack of knowledge of history and if you want to understand rural poverty in developing countries you'll probably be better served reading excellent works from developing countries. To make it more specific, it's the idea of transhistorical and transcultural profundity due to vague similarities that I consider shallow. Because vague similarities are just that, vague.

I've lived in the country. Rural poverty is very much alive and well in the west. If you go south of the Mason-Dixon line it's by all accounts even worse.

I've also gotten more insight and general food for thought reading classics than from more contemporary books. Hell, I've been thinking about the Iliad on a daily basis for years now, and I don't see that well drying up anytime soon. I can't think of anything written in the modern period about which I can make the same claim, or even anything close to it. Maybe Lady Chatterly's Lover although I read that much more recently, so I can't be sure.

Which actually isn't a bad recommendation either. Fourteen was about the time I started to appreciate books that were hot, and Lady Chatterly's Lover is certainly hot. Contains good life lessons as well.

To further elaborate on my position, my problem is ultimately with three things. One is the act of canonizing some literature as worthy and other as unworthy. Another is the way that many people, though not really in this thread, use the act of reading "worthy" literature to present themselves as superior to others due to doing so. The third thing is the selection of the worthy literature being highly biased towards the taste and interests of an older, relatively well-off white audience that favors older literature that's mostly by white people, mostly male and mostly middle or upper class. Focusing narrowly on the canon stifles non-white voices, poor voices and, to a lesser degree, female voices, it also serves to maintain the current social and cultural hegemony and naturalizes the taste of the dominant strata of society as right, proper, natural and unmarked, while sequestering the taste of other groups in marked ghettos such as "black literature" or "gay literature" or similar.
I think we must have read different canons.

Finally, I think that canonization of a work does it a disservice. It forces it on a lot of people who aren't interested and grow to hate it due to the selection of literature in schools. It also kills public discourse and room for interpreting it by putting that power in the hands of cultural gatekeepers passing judgement regardless of the views of a wider audience and turns the work from a living work for people to engage with into a defined work that people get discouraged from personal interpretation of. At the same time it does a disservice to other works that don't get studied and blocks funding and access to non-canonized art that might have scholarly interest. Finding old penny dreadfuls to study Victorian culture on a scale large enough to make generalized findings of the fiction of the masses at the time can be quite rough and older chapbooks are virtually all gone because of the focus on the canonized literature.

Perhaps it's because I'm essentially an elitist when it comes to knowledge, but my general view is that somebody who spends years studying something is in fact better equipped to think about and talk about something than I am if I haven't. Which is to say I'm really quite fine with scholars of literature acting as cultural gatekeepers because I suspect they know more about the matter than I do, and therefore deferring to their judgement is smarter than using my own. It's not like their judgement infringes on my ability to read other stuff - and I certainly get through some right crap - but generally when I feel in the mood for something both excellent and meaty, the canon is a good place to start.

Coidzor

2014-01-20, 02:28 PM

As far as I can tell, the name of Pratchett has not been invoked a single time.

Look at the Tiffany Aching arc from the Discworld series.

Zrak

2014-01-20, 07:40 PM

The specific thing I consider shallow is things like Zrak's insistence that these older books are relevant because they talk about extremely broad topics that still exist today, but in radically different forms,
I am insisting nothing of the kind. I insist that older books are still relevant because they talk about the very specific philosophies, ideologies, and cultural narratives which excuse, lionize, and perpetuate issues that still exist today with varying degrees of practical difference. The mechanisms of poverty have changed, though I'd say many of them have changed less than you think, but the dehumanizing rhetoric that leads us to so callously cast others aside is basically the same. Good literature is an intervention into the prevailing cultural narrative, a counter-story to the stories we are taught to believe about who we are, who others are, and what that means about "us" and "them."
I am insisting that the idea of a meaning beyond historical specificity does not entail a trite truism rather than a truth. I am insisting that it is not literature as an art form or field of study that is shallow, but rather readings like your own. I am contending that it is neither the work nor discipline at fault for your inability to discern a deeper meaning, but your own flawed and limited engagement with the material. I contend that the readings you produce aren't supported by the texts.
I am not praising shallow banalities, I am rejecting your assertion that great works of literature traffic in them.

Where I don't think it's relevant is in ascribing it any unique value or profound insight into the world that is better obtained through older art than through other venues.
I saying there are profound insights into the world that are best obtained through great art, regardless of that art's age. I am not advocating the inherent primacy of older works, I am advocating their continued applicability. I have never claimed newer art has less merit, I have only claimed that older art does not have less merit.

The third thing is the selection of the worthy literature being highly biased towards the taste and interests of an older, relatively well-off white audience that favors older literature that's mostly by white people, mostly male and mostly middle or upper class. Focusing narrowly on the canon stifles non-white voices, poor voices and, to a lesser degree, female voices, it also serves to maintain the current social and cultural hegemony and naturalizes the taste of the dominant strata of society as right, proper, natural and unmarked, while sequestering the taste of other groups in marked ghettos such as "black literature" or "gay literature" or similar.
As warty goblin said, I think we're reading different canons.
Less facetiously, Harold Bloom is probably the most ardent advocate of the type of canon you describe and (aside from the fact that, to reiterate, it's Harold Bloom :smalltongue:) even his canon isn't particularly close to your idea of one. Bloom's canon includes authors of various races, sexes, and sexualities; it does not argue the merits of the works it contains so much as their originality and lasting influence; and it does not define itself as right, proper, or unmarked, but instead defines itself as a specific cultural canon.

It also kills public discourse and room for interpreting it by putting that power in the hands of cultural gatekeepers passing judgement regardless of the views of a wider audience and turns the work from a living work for people to engage with into a defined work that people get discouraged from personal interpretation of.
I really couldn't disagree more, as someone with a background in the field. For one, I can think of very few works that really have so defined an interpretation as you suggest. Moreover, if something does have a relatively canonical interpretation, arguing against that interpretation is pretty much the national pastime of lit departments.

HeadlessMermaid

2014-01-20, 08:22 PM

Whoah, lots of replies. My thanks to everyone, mega-post ahoy!

And I'm not quite sure what you mean by "a transition thingy" regarding de Lint.
I meant, maybe it's urban fantasy that can somehow prompt readers to read something other than urban fantasy. Neil Gaiman is such an author, IMO. [Note: I have nothing at all against urban fantasy. But the girl has plenty of urban fantasy to read already, which is why I'm leaning towards something else.]

Based on the book and movie list she likes containing fantasy and your author list how about Earthsea from Ursula Le Guin, I was probably 12 when I read it.
That's a very strong contender, thanks.

As far as good books go, Enders Game is pretty good, +1 to the Lovecraft, for more of the serials, there's Evil Genius and it's sequels.
Ender's Game is good. And come to think of it, why don't I get her The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? It's perfect for her age, isn't it?

I'd honestly suggest letting her work it out herself rather than try to sway her towards "proper", canonically respected literature.
I understand your point, and I admit I do sound (and perhaps am...) a bit condescending. But to my defense, I am not, under any circumstances, condescending to her. I don't discourage her from reading the stuff she likes, I don't make it sound bad, I don't preach. I happily buy her whatever she asks for, no matter what I personally think about it - and I'll keep doing that.

But at the same time, I'd like to nudge her towards a kind of literature she hasn't had much access to yet. Because who knows, if she gets her hands on it, she may like it even more.

I just don't see how a list of book that mostly deal strongly with the issues of the day of the early 20th century will be terribly relevant in the modern day.
Umm, yeah, I'll not bite with that one, we'll derail the thread beyond local repair. Lemme just say that, if you have any specific suggestions which, in your opinion, are contemporary and relevant and all that, you're more than welcome to share.

If anything, I'd say that if Greek schools are anything like Danish ones, she'll get plenty of serious literature there to get used to that style
Don't get me started. :smallfurious: Greek schools, sadly, focus almost exclusively on Greek literature, starting from Homer and the tragedies. That's 2800 years and a crapton of material to cover, and the load predictably excludes anything else. All the books she's read for class (White Fang, Dorian Gray etc) were for her English lessons.

The end result is that, if a kid in this country is to get acquainted with world literature, it can only happen outside school. This makes parents and aunts and other gift-bearing Greeks (:smalltongue:) very important indeed.

Unless you're simply trying to perpetuate that specific cultural formation rather than actually educating her in how to be a critical reader, I guess.
Well that was uncalled for, and missing the point. I don't want to "educate" anyone. I am not an educator. I want to acquaint my niece with literature, literature she hasn't really read, and from which she has a lot to gain - IF she actually enjoys it. And that little caveat is why I started this thread, instead of simply picking up a book I find good and giving it to her.

Also, for your question about how to write Philip K. ****, you simply pick the color black from the menubefore hitting the key of one of the letters in ****.
Got it, thanks. And despite my strong disagreements here and there (which I haven't fully addressed and neither do I intend to, because we'll inevitably derail the thread AND veer off to forbidden topics), thank you for taking the time to write all that.

14 y/o girl, likes gothic romance?
Please introduce her to the mothers of all gothic romance the Bronte sisters.
Read Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte, and Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte.
That's a great idea. I'll just have to ask if she's read them, these books are very often given to students who learn English.

Since you mentioned Dostoevsky and Pushkin, Lermontov might be a good place to start if you want to get her started on the Russian lit train. His A Hero of Our Time is one of the most underrated works in Russian literature
I haven't read it, but you made a very compelling argument, so now I intend to. :smallsmile:

I'm not sure where else to go for recommendations primarily because I'm not sure to what extent "objectionable" content is an issue.
Oh dear, neither am I. :smalleek: I'm the least qualified person in the world to answer that. When I was her age, I was reading de Sade. And Charles Dickens. And Simone de Beauvoir. At the same time. Booksellers all over town were giving me some very odd looks. :smalltongue:

At 14, I might recommend the Dispossessed, if you're looking at LeGuin's work.
It's very difficult to translate the title "The Dispossessed" in Greek. So the translator apparently said "screw it", and went for "The Anarchist of Two Worlds". Which isn't that bad, if you think about it, but I'd rather not risk raised eyebrows from her parents. Otherwise, it's a sold choice, certainly one of my favorites.

How about some magical realism? One Hundred Years of Solitude, by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, is a classic for a reason, and a fantastic choice. If she likes it, she can go from there to the rest of his catalogue, or branch out to authors like Borges and Carpentier.
Are you certain about that? That's how I went about it, too, but I believe Borges may be a tad more accessible. I've heard all sorts of people complain that Marquez is "confusing", not sure why. Magical realism is definitely within my goals. And Umberto Eco, by the way.

something like "the idiot" or, considering her tastes, maybe "the demons" (Is that what the book is called in English? "Evil Spirits", possibly, I suppose you know my meaning) might be the right way to go.
I believe it's either "Demons" or "The Possessed". And I think it's too dark for her. I personally find "Crime and punishment" unsurpassable. (Also dark, I know. Different kind of dark. :smalltongue:).

Just read her first post again, and notice that the beginning is very likely meant to be taken humourously.
Thank you for that entire post, and the previous one, too. (Of course it was meant to be taken humorously. I would think the "mwahahaha" was a dead giveaway...)

Saying that the rural poverty of the grapes of wrath is terribly similar to anything experienced in the west today is to show an abject lack of knowledge of history
Hey, remember when I said I won't bite? I'm revising that. Find me a forum that allows politics, and I'll explain to you EXACTLY how The Grapes of Wrath are still relevant today. Until then, I'll just leave you with a somewhat sibyllic question: do you like oranges?

Has she shown any interest at all in mythology? It's usually just a few steps away from default fairy tales many (most?) children are exposed to and (presumably?) enjoy. There's bound to be really good versions of Illiad and Odyssey over there.
She's been reading mythology forever. It's the first thing I got her when she was a wee kid, and she has access to all kinds of versions. She doesn't miss it. :)

Once again, thanks to everyone who replied. A lot of good ideas, a lot of good suggestions, I'll mull over them for a while and make up my mind sooner or later. You are great! :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and Zrak: I concur with everything you've written.

turkishproverb

2014-01-21, 03:49 AM

Based on the Authors and works you've shown, and the girl's age, my instinct goes to a few Mercedes Lackey books: For a start, I'd go with Magic's Pawn, Magic's Promise, and Magic's Price. The first is from a Teen-Aged point of view, and the others continue the story. In addition, they are fairly gripping, and present a slightly unusual fantasy world. She might like Vows and Honor and the Arrows series as well

Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is an extremely well made novel harkening back to the Bronte's era, and depending upon what she liked about the works you mentioned, it might suit her.

She might also like Carrigers Finishing School series.

As for more "canon" literature, might I suggest something in the Classics? Mary Shelley's Frankenstein perchance? The Picture of Dorian Gray? Pride and Prejudice? Might go for some lost influential pieces, like Phantastes: A Faerie Romance by George Macdonald. Less well known than he was in the past, he's ripe for scholarship. Or something re-adapted recently, like The Hound of the Baskervilles which would give you guys something to discuss about period context.

If you get the Illiad or the Odyssey, or any of the classic epics, be careful when choosing a translation. Some don't flow well. On those two works I'm not much of an expert, but for Gilgamesh I recommend Steven Mitchell's translation. For Sir Gawain and the Green Knight I'd go with Tolkien. Less literal translation, but gets more of the lyrical feel in there, and it's important not to lose that.

The problem with "proper" literature, the "canon" as it were, is...well..Let's just say I have spent years studying these matters, and well...frankly, I prefer debating which Mallory used a pen.

aberratio ictus

2014-01-21, 04:25 AM

Nothing is a dead giveaway for a person who wants to share her thoughts and sees an opportunity to do so, I'm afraid. :smallwink:

"Crime and punishment" is a very good possibility, then, as are many of the works others have suggested by now.

Just one thing - are you sure about "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? As in, have you read it recently? To me, it doesn't seem that worty of the attention it gets, it's fairly badly written, and moreover too blatant and exaggerated to be really humorous (my personal tastes, of course)
Of course, if you think that she'll like it, do it, but I can't think of many works further away from the original premise of this thread than that one.
Sorry, but I really hated it when I read it. I seldom hate books.

Avilan the Grey

2014-01-21, 04:40 AM

I've also gotten more insight and general food for thought reading classics than from more contemporary books. Hell, I've been thinking about the Iliad on a daily basis for years now, and I don't see that well drying up anytime soon. I can't think of anything written in the modern period about which I can make the same claim, or even anything close to it. Maybe Lady Chatterly's Lover although I read that much more recently, so I can't be sure.

---

Which actually isn't a bad recommendation either. Fourteen was about the time I started to appreciate books that were hot, and Lady Chatterly's Lover is certainly hot. Contains good life lessons as well.

---

Perhaps it's because I'm essentially an elitist when it comes to knowledge, but my general view is that somebody who spends years studying something is in fact better equipped to think about and talk about something than I am if I haven't. Which is to say I'm really quite fine with scholars of literature acting as cultural gatekeepers because I suspect they know more about the matter than I do, and therefore deferring to their judgement is smarter than using my own. It's not like their judgement infringes on my ability to read other stuff - and I certainly get through some right crap - but generally when I feel in the mood for something both excellent and meaty, the canon is a good place to start.

Heh. I read the Iliad because I was intererested in mythology, and it was... okay. Nothing I spend time thinking of, just like I don't think much about the Edda. I honestly can't say that any of the "classics" I was made to read, with the possible exception of Treasure Island and A Christmas Carol have stayed with me in any way or form.
Animal Farm? So, communism is bad? Living fairly close to the iron curtain kinda made me figure that one out automatically.
Catcher In The Rye? I couldn't stand it, the writing skill is awful. I actually got permission from my teacher to stop reading it, since I could formulate a really good reason why, and picked another classic instead to do my report on.

On the other hand many modern "shallow" works pops into my head very often. Not maybe because they make me "think deep thoughts", but because they have stayed with me.

As for Lady: Or you could just surf the net :smallwink: (or in my day, shoplift porno mags and borrow porn tapes from older friends). Not that I am against the idea, though having to run it by a set of parents might be difficult. Besides why not Anaiis Nin instead?

As for knowledge:
Of course. Anti-intellectualism being put on a pedistal and actual knowledge being called "Elitism" is infuriating to me. Of course studying something makes you better equipped to discus it.
However, the whole idea with a Canon must be approached carefully. Not only will it spoil a lot of kids, since if you give them reading assigments they resent (bad) or feel is irellevant to them (worse) they will only take away one thing: This. Book. Sucks.
But not only that; there is also the issues pointed out above that only canonize older work will indeed make the whole idea stale. If almost nothing written after WWII is canonized it automatically becomes harder and harder to assimilate into ones personal experiences.

Edit:
Oh and art is not good because it's old. Art is old because it's good.

Edit again:
Different countries have different takes on what is important to read. I can fully understand that Greek schools prioritizes the 3000 year of history right under their noses. French schools have also a completely different set of "classics" than American or British schools. So does ours (Swedish) schools. Very VERY few American "classics" that are mandatory reads in our schools; the ones I can think of are counted on one hand: Of Mice And Men, a few Hemingway stories, maybe Fahrenheit 451 and maybe Grapes of Wrath. As for English literature, there are Animal Farm, a mandatory mentioning of Shakespeare, and Dickens.
But the rest? A vast majority of course is Swedish writers from the last 100 years. And a few Russians, Kafka, Molière... In fact French and central European culture is far more in focus than both British and American over here. Which makes sense.

MLai

2014-01-21, 05:52 AM

To people:

1. Hey guys, this girl is Greek. Don't bother mentioning The Illiad etc; she doesn't need our help on that front.

2. She's a 14 y/o girl. Let's recommend things that would more likely speak to a 14 y/o girl's soul. You want to recommend something that she'll carry with her for a long time. For example, I don't think JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit is a good choice.

Avilan the Grey

2014-01-21, 06:46 AM

[B]She's a 14 y/o girl. Let's recommend things that would more likely speak to a 14 y/o girl's soul. You want to recommend something that she'll carry with her for a long time. For example, I don't think JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit is a good choice.

The Hobbit is always a good choice.

Man on Fire

2014-01-21, 08:02 AM

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-21, 08:51 AM

It's very difficult to translate the title "The Dispossessed" in Greek. So the translator apparently said "screw it", and went for "The Anarchist of Two Worlds". Which isn't that bad, if you think about it, but I'd rather not risk raised eyebrows from her parents. Otherwise, it's a sold choice, certainly one of my favorites.

Heh, I guess I could see that being an issue. My own parents had anarchist leanings as it was and encouraged me to read whatever I wanted to read, so I guess it's easy to forget that not everyone might be so permissive.

Are you certain about that? That's how I went about it, too, but I believe Borges may be a tad more accessible. I've heard all sorts of people complain that Marquez is "confusing", not sure why. Magical realism is definitely within my goals. And Umberto Eco, by the way.

Personally, I think that One Hundred Years is more emotionally compelling than most of Borges' stories, and that at least makes a difference to me. I love Borges, and I've since come back to his short stories and essays even more than I have to most of Marquez's works, but I'm not sure I would have appreciated them all at 14 the way I did Marquez.

And I absolutely love Umberto Eco - Foucault's Pendulum frequently jousts with Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren as my favorite book. But for all that, I tried to read Foucault's Pendulum a couple of times in early high school and abandoned it - something about the first ~50 pages just didn't catch me, even though it was a subject matter that I found fascinating. It wasn't until I was 18 or 19 that I sat down and read through it, and since then I've probably read it at least half a dozen times. So if she's anything like I was, it might be easier to start with something like Baudolino, which is light-hearted and compelling from page one.

I believe it's either "Demons" or "The Possessed". And I think it's too dark for her. I personally find "Crime and punishment" unsurpassable. (Also dark, I know. Different kind of dark. :smalltongue:).

Like I said above, Crime and Punishment was the first Dostoyevsky I'd ever read, at age 13, and it was a great start. (And to your first point, my English translation is titled "Demons.")

Palanan

2014-01-21, 10:31 AM

Has anyone mentioned The Lord of the Rings yet? I'd think that would be perfect here. By the time I was her age I'd read the trilogy several times, as well as The Silmarillion.

For someone reading it for the first time, The Fellowship of the Ring is a great story, the four hobbits are engaging characters, and there's genuine wonder aplenty. And if she prefers books in series, well, problem solved. :smallsmile:

Originally Posted by MLai
You want to recommend something that she'll carry with her for a long time. For example, I don't think JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit is a good choice.

Note that the OP specifically mentions The Hobbit movies as a series she enjoys, so it's actually a very good suggestion. And as Avilan says, The Hobbit is always a good choice.

--Now let me go in a different direction here, and recommend some books no one really brings up in the Playground, which are the old Dragonsinger novels by Anne McCaffrey. These focus on Menolly, who is a young teenager when the trilogy starts, and progress through Dragonsong (http://www.amazon.com/Dragonsong-Harper-Hall-Trilogy-Book/dp/0689860080/), Dragonsinger (http://www.amazon.com/Dragonsinger-Harper-Hall-Trilogy-2/dp/0689860072/) and Dragondrums (http://www.amazon.com/Dragondrums-Harper-Hall-Trilogy-McCaffrey/dp/0689860064/). They're part of the much larger Pern franchise, but they hang together very well on their own, and they have a good blend of adventure, exploration, romance, social awkwardness, emotional struggle, and a personal flock of miniature dragons. I loved these books when I was fourteen, and they're different enough you might want to give them a try.

No idea if they've been translated into Greek, but if she's reading Frankenstein and White Fang for English classes she shouldn't have much trouble with these. Great Thumping Classic Literature they're not...but they're fun, and very well-written for what's now called the YA audience.

Originally Posted by Zrak
His A Hero of Our Time is one of the most underrated works in Russian literature, far ahead of its time in a lot of formal senses, and with underlying meaning and passion that transcend that time.

It's a deep and powerful novel, but I have a feeling 98% of it will sail right past a fourteen-year-old.

Also, I can't speak for anywhere else, but I read that as an English major and it was presented as a classic, and rightfully so. Not sure who or where would consider it underrated.

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles
One Hundred Years of Solitude, by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, is a classic for a reason, and a fantastic choice.

One of the first titles mentioned in any discussion of magical realism, yes, but again this might be a tough slog for a young reader.

There's also a lot of content in that book I wouldn't consider appropriate for that age--although that's probably an outmoded concept by global internet standards. The OP should at least be aware of that, if she hasn't read the book herself.

Originally Posted by Terraoblivion
Saying that the rural poverty of the grapes of wrath is terribly similar to anything experienced in the west today is to show an abject lack of knowledge of history....

Speaking of abject lack of knowledge, have you actually been to America? Ever?!?

Some of us live here. Some of us know better.

Originally Posted by warty goblin
I've lived in the country. Rural poverty is very much alive and well in the west. If you go south of the Mason-Dixon line it's by all accounts even worse.

And I've spent most of my life in the South, and while "worse" is hard to define, there are a lot of places where it's very, very bad. These days Grapes of Wrath would probably resonate more strongly in Mississippi or Alabama than the region where it was originally set.

Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid
This makes parents and aunts and other gift-bearing Greeks....

We see what you did there.

:smalltongue:

.

MLai

2014-01-21, 10:47 AM

Note that the OP specifically mentions The Hobbit movies as a series she enjoys, so it's actually a very good suggestion. And as Avilan says, The Hobbit is always a good choice.
Oh right, you mean that book that has not a single woman/girl/female-anything from start to finish. Great choice.
The movie != The book. At all.

Manga Shoggoth

2014-01-21, 11:09 AM

2. She's a 14 y/o girl. Let's recommend things that would more likely speak to a 14 y/o girl's soul. You want to recommend something that she'll carry with her for a long time. For example, I don't think JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit is a good choice.

Well, I had read it by age 14, and was reading LOTR by 16. I hadn't even started on Pratchett (my other suggestion) at that stage.

warty goblin

2014-01-21, 11:13 AM

Heh. I read the Iliad because I was intererested in mythology, and it was... okay. Nothing I spend time thinking of, just like I don't think much about the Edda. I honestly can't say that any of the "classics" I was made to read, with the possible exception of Treasure Island and A Christmas Carol have stayed with me in any way or form.
Animal Farm? So, communism is bad? Living fairly close to the iron curtain kinda made me figure that one out automatically.

It helps that I've taken two classes on the Iliad (among other things ancient Greek) and have read quite a bit of commentary on it as well. Mind, I did all this completely voluntarily.

Catcher In The Rye? I couldn't stand it, the writing skill is awful. I actually got permission from my teacher to stop reading it, since I could formulate a really good reason why, and picked another classic instead to do my report on.
Catcher in the Rye is legit crap.

As for Lady: Or you could just surf the net :smallwink: (or in my day, shoplift porno mags and borrow porn tapes from older friends). Not that I am against the idea, though having to run it by a set of parents might be difficult. Besides why not Anaiis Nin instead?
Firstly because the overwhelming majority of porn is produced for straight men, and a good chunk of the remainder for gay men. Actual female-centric porn certainly exists, but is a good deal harder to find.

Also everything is hotter given the proper context, which Lady Chatterly provides. And at least in the States, its understanding of sexuality is frankly still a good deal more sophisticated than the mainstream cultural discourse.

But not only that; there is also the issues pointed out above that only canonize older work will indeed make the whole idea stale. If almost nothing written after WWII is canonized it automatically becomes harder and harder to assimilate into ones personal experiences.
People keep talking about literary canon as if it's both singular and entirely monolithic. I very much don't think that's the case. If you want to study 19th century American authors, then yes that canon isn't really going anywhere, but people do in fact study modern works as well.

Has anyone mentioned The Lord of the Rings yet? I'd think that would be perfect here. By the time I was her age I'd read the trilogy several times, as well as The Silmarillion.

For someone reading it for the first time, The Fellowship of the Ring is a great story, the four hobbits are engaging characters, and there's genuine wonder aplenty. And if she prefers books in series, well, problem solved. :smallsmile

Plus, the sooner a person reads Tolkien, the sooner they can get to rereading Tolkien. And that's where so much of the magic happens.

Speaking of abject lack of knowledge, have you actually been to America? Ever?!?

Some of us live here. Some of us know better.

And I've spent most of my life in the South, and while "worse" is hard to define, there are a lot of places where it's very, very bad. These days Grapes of Wrath would probably resonate more strongly in Mississippi or Alabama than the region where it was originally set.
I'm from Iowa. It depends where you go obviously, but there's a lot of areas that are pretty clearly just crushingly poor. Whenever I read in the news about a rural area that's exceedingly impoverished though, it's almost always down south. Mind, I suspect there's some serious selection bias going on here.

Oh right, you mean that book that has not a single woman/girl/female-anything from start to finish. Great choice.
The movie != The book. At all.
Because as well all know, a book must feature major characters of the same gender as the reader to be of interest. Wait, no, I don't know that. Some of my favorite books are made up almost entirely of women. Others of men. Others have a cast that stands somewhere in the middle

Reverent-One

2014-01-21, 11:13 AM

Oh right, you mean that book that has not a single woman/girl/female-anything from start to finish. Great choice.
The movie != The book. At all.

Doesn't matter, still a good choice.

Palanan

2014-01-21, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by warty goblin
Plus, the sooner a person reads Tolkien, the sooner they can get to rereading Tolkien. And that's where so much of the magic happens.

Well said, indeed.

Originally Posted by warty goblin
It depends where you go obviously, but there's a lot of areas that are pretty clearly just crushingly poor. Whenever I read in the news about a rural area that's exceedingly impoverished though, it's almost always down south.

There are pockets everywhere, but I'd say much of the worst regions are in the South and Southeast. I was born in one of those areas.

Originally Posted by Just About Everyone
*GO HOBBIT!!!*

Really, it's a fun book and a great introduction to Middle-Earth. The suggestion's been made, and almost universally endorsed, so at this point it's up to the OP.

And I would love to see a copy of The Hobbit in Greek. One of the problems with the US, or at least the part where I live, is that it's almost impossible to get books in any foreign language, apart from Spanish. Borders used to have a tiny shelf of other languages, mainly German, but Barnes & Noble didn't see fit to expand on that.

turkishproverb

2014-01-21, 01:08 PM

HeadlessMermaid

2014-01-21, 01:36 PM

Just one thing - are you sure about "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"? As in, have you read it recently? To me, it doesn't seem that worty of the attention it gets, it's fairly badly written, and moreover too blatant and exaggerated to be really humorous (my personal tastes, of course)
Of course, if you think that she'll like it, do it, but I can't think of many works further away from the original premise of this thread than that one.
Hah, you're right about the last bit, and as for the rest, well. There's no accounting for tastes. :) Personally I adore it.

I think that, at its best, the HHGTTG goes beyond generic humor and sci-fi parody, and straight into merciless satire. And I think it can function as a marvelous gateway to sci-fi (humor is the bait, in a sense), which opens the path to some great works.

Different countries have different takes on what is important to read. I can fully understand that Greek schools prioritizes the 3000 year of history right under their noses.
I can understand prioritizing your own language and literature, but outright excluding everything else is preposterous. Not only because I have a big beef with ethnocentric apporaches in general, but because it hurts even the purpose it supposedly serves: "What does he know of England who only England knows?"

As for the general discussion on canonical literature and all that jazz, may I point out that this only becomes a burden for kids when:

1) They are FORCED (or at least strongly prompted) to read such books, say for school assignments, or when a grown-up tells them "you really should read that book, it's important".

2) They are AWARE that these are considered "canon", "classics", "required reading", "masterpieces" etc.

3) The AMOUNT of canonical works they read reaches a critical mass that prevents them from reading the stuff they like, and/or informs their opinion on how literature "should be".

If none of the above happens, I fail to see the problem. As far as my niece is concerned, canon is a school-imposed selection of Greek literature. And when someone gives her a book and says "hey, I got you this", and doesn't go on raving about how "classic" or "important" it is, and doesn't say or in any way insinuate that "this is better than the stuff you read", and it's never implied that she HAS to read it or that she HAS to like it....

...then what's the big deal, huh? I'm throwing a few books at her general direction. If something sticks, it sticks. It's that simple.

I mean, hell, I don't even ask her what she thought of the previous ones (although it would help me immensely in picking the next), exactly because I don't want her to feel obliged to read them. Will people please stop accusing me that I'm forcing a girl to read things she doesn't want or imposing a particular worldview or whatever? I'm neither her teacher nor her mother nor her mentor. I'm just a relative who brings presents. Geez.

And I absolutely love Umberto Eco - Foucault's Pendulum frequently jousts with Samuel Delaney's Dhalgren as my favorite book. But for all that, I tried to read Foucault's Pendulum a couple of times in early high school and abandoned it - something about the first ~50 pages just didn't catch me, even though it was a subject matter that I found fascinating. It wasn't until I was 18 or 19 that I sat down and read through it, and since then I've probably read it at least half a dozen times. So if she's anything like I was, it might be easier to start with something like Baudolino, which is light-hearted and compelling from page one.
Another excellent point. I think an appropriate order would be Baudolino--> The Name of the Rose--> Foucault's Pendulum. And look at that, it's full circle: I started reading Eco because her mother got me "The Name of the Rose" when I was a teenager. Awwww.

Has anyone mentioned The Lord of the Rings yet? I'd think that would be perfect here. By the time I was her age I'd read the trilogy several times, as well as The Silmarillion.
LOTR is a possibility, though I fear it may be a little too, err, verbose here and there. She hasn't seen the movies, but I think she'll like it. :) The Silmarillion, eh, I think it's only for hardcore fans. Personally, I only liked the Genesis (so to speak) chapter, and forgot everything else the minute I closed the book. Seriously, I've never forgotten a book so rapidly. :smalltongue:

Oh right, you mean that book that has not a single woman/girl/female-anything from start to finish. Great choice.
The movie != The book. At all.
I don't think this is an issue when only a handful of the books you read are like that. If you're flooded by male protagonists doing all the cool stuff while girls are systematically non-existant or decorative, then yes. It's a problem.

And even then, it's a problem you solve constructively, by finding books with proper representation. And not destructively, by depriving girls of their Hobbits - I'm assuming here they like hobbits, of course.

And I would love to see a copy of The Hobbit in Greek.
Here's the cover. :)
http://www.kedros.gr/images/TOLKIN_XOMPIT.jpg

My thanks again to everyone who replied. Right now I'm leaning towards getting her "Crime and punishment" - and if it sticks, it sticks - and "The Hobbit" in English (I've already asked her if she'd like books in English, and she's said yes.)

For now. :smallcool:

P.S. As for Homer, in my experience, kids love the Odyssey more than the Iliad. Because the Odyssey reads like an adventure. While the Iliad, even in abridged versions, is plain brutal. Awkward childhood moment: I was reading the Iliad to my grandmother, and she was listening with admirable patience. We got to the part where Priam is begging Achilles to give him back Hector's body, and is kissing the hands of his son's slayer. At which point she started crying uncontrollably and we had to stop. :smalleek:

Incidentally, for anyone who's already read the Odyssey, I heartily recommend "The Penelopiad" by Margaret Atwood. A wonderful example of how to constructively critique canonized literature, instead of summarily discarding it because it's "old".

warty goblin

2014-01-21, 02:02 PM

P.S. As for Homer, in my experience, kids love the Odyssey more than the Iliad. Because the Odyssey reads like an adventure. While the Iliad, even in abridged versions, is plain brutal. Awkward childhood moment: I was reading the Iliad to my grandmother, and she was listening with admirable patience. We got to the part where Priam is begging Achilles to give him back Hector's body, and is kissing the hands of his son's slayer. At which point she started crying uncontrollably and we had to stop. :smalleek:

There's an honesty in the Iliad's brutality I've always found appealing. It frequently renders me tearful as well. Compared to the dull nationalism of the Aeneid, or even the weirdness of the Odyssey, it's pretty stunning.

Incidentally, for anyone who's already read the Odyssey, I heartily recommend "The Penelopiad" by Margaret Atwood. A wonderful example of how to constructively critique canonized literature, instead of summarily discarding it because it's "old".
While we're knocking modern interpretations of Homer back and fourth, I am quite fond of a novel called The Song of Achilles, which is written entirely from Patroklus' viewpoint.

erikun

2014-01-21, 02:23 PM

I have to agree with Terraoblivion, with the idea that this should be a search for books that the child likes rather than some silly attempt at subversion towards a preferred style of literature. Not only will it likely backfire tremendously, but it kind of ignores exposing yourself to other types of writing.

I will also agree that The Hobbit is very dry and quite boring, especially for someone who doesn't seem interested in long winded narration.

When I was 14, my preferred authors were Piers Anthony, Brian Jacques, and Anne McCaffrey. A lot of this had to do with being the only books available, though, and much preferring to read other books by the same authors than take a chance on something that would end up quite dull. The reasons towards series are a sense of familiarity and assuming that you'll get similar enjoyment out of them. Given that a lot of people insisted I try reading some (what I thought at the time) extremely long-winded titles instead, it's probably understandable that I was inclined to just stick with the authors I liked.

As for actual recommendations, Maximum Ride by James Patterson may not be the kind of literature you are looking for, but it may be something that she could be interested in. It's one in particular that I liked, although the first four books (story arc 1) were better than the last four books (story arc 2). It also has a really beautiful manga, although I'm not sure if any of it is translated into Greek for you.

Soulless, and the whole Parasol Protectorate series by Gail Carriger, is very good writing in a Victorian England with magic-is-real. It might be interesting to her, especially if she's current enjoying stories about vampires, magic, and so on.

And as a word of advice: steer well clear of the non-children's female romance section. While they can be quite well-written, I've also found some with some very explicit writing as well. Somehow, I don't think you want to be giving that as a gift unintentionally. :smallwink:

Coidzor

2014-01-21, 02:33 PM

I believe Serpentine compiled a list of good books and series for younger girls and young women that was pretty good a year or two back, though it might have been more geared towards the 9 to 12 age range rather than the 14-16 age range.

Edit: Ah, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220706)we go. I guess that's three years now.

Palanan

2014-01-21, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Palanan
I would love to see a copy of The Hobbit in Greek.

Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid
Here's the cover. :)

Thanks very much! Although a little odd, since the cover illustrates a scene from The Fellowship of the Ring, so the hobbit on the horse would be Frodo, not Bilbo. Go figure.

(And Frodo wouldn't have been riding alone, he had Glorfindel handling the reins. Ah well.)

Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid
The Silmarillion, eh, I think it's only for hardcore fans.

This is probably true. :smalltongue:

It's one of my favorite books, but it's certainly a dense text in places (okay, almost all of it) and it does tend to shift its focus pretty radically sometimes. But it's lovely in its own wistful, mythical way, and even the hard-edged sections have a stern, dark beauty at times.

Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid
Will people please stop accusing me that I'm forcing a girl to read things she doesn't want or imposing a particular worldview or whatever?

In fact, it's rather ridiculous for people to be accusing you of these things, when you're just trying to help expand and deepen her reading list. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Really, the people making accusations about "forcing" this or "imposing" that are pretty clearly grinding some philosophical axes of their own, almost entirely unrelated to your actual situation. But I'd like to think that most folks in this thread are making a good-faith effort to help.

Originally Posted by HeadlessMermaid
As for Homer, in my experience, kids love the Odyssey more than the Iliad. Because the Odyssey reads like an adventure.

Absolutely, and in fact I was going to recommend the Odyssey until you mentioned the whole 3000-years-of-Greek-literature part. After that, I figured she was aware of it.

:smallbiggrin:

Originally Posted by Coidzor
I believe Serpentine compiled a list of good books and series for younger girls and young women that was pretty good....

And this is fantastic to have on hand, thank you.

(And thanks, Serpentine! If you're out there anywhere.)

.

teacupprincess9

2014-01-21, 05:39 PM

I'm definitely going to second the recommendations of Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights, in addition to some other gothic or gothic-ish romances she might enjoy: Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier and The Phantom of the Opera by Gaston Leroux (the book has a lot more depth and meaning than the musical, as you might expect (but don't get me wrong, I love the musical too)).

If you want the complete set of Bronte sisters (Jane Eyre being written by Charlotte, and Wuthering Heights by Emily), The Tenant of Wildfell Fall by Anne Bronte is excellent. I actually preferred it over Wuthering Heights.

If she enjoys Frankenstein and modern vampire fiction, perhaps she would also enjoy the original Dracula by Bram Stoker? If I recall, the works of Edgar Allen Poe have already been recommended, which I wholeheartedly agree with; I first started reading his short stories around 13/14 and I've loved them ever since. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by Robert Louis Stevenson is another one in that vein.

I know you mentioned The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck as an example of the type of book you'd like her to start reading. I know when I was 14, I found his short story The Pearl much more compelling (and it has the added benefit of being short, so it might be easier to convince her to read it).

And she does seem to like sort of adventurous science fiction/fantasy, so maybe the works of H.G. Wells or Jules Verne would appeal to her? The War of the Worlds and Journey to the Center of the Earth being my favorites respectively, and very accessible for a girl her age.

Good luck, and I hope this was helpful! :smallsmile:

Edit: Oh my god, how did I forget H.P. Lovecraft!? He's also definitely right up there with Poe in terms of authors I loved at 14.

MLai

2014-01-21, 09:17 PM

@ Not directly related to OP, so OP can ignore:

Because as well all know, a book must feature major characters of the same gender as the reader to be of interest. Wait, no, I don't know that. Some of my favorite books are made up almost entirely of women. Others of men. Others have a cast that stands somewhere in the middle
Let's take this into perspective: We are boys/men/male. And if we (many/some of the ppl here) are Caucasian, that makes us white male.
We are free to read fiction featuring whoever and whatever, because the Western literary world is mostly catered to us.
"OMG why are you denying this Greek girl a classic of British literature all about Men's-Adventures-Women-Not-Allowed, written by an old white British gentleman author?!" This is classic Speaking From Privilege.

How many books can a schoolgirl really consume, and take into her heart? Unless she's a voracious reader, I would say a pretty finite number of books. I would rather she read books where she feels a woman has a place and a voice, where women are part of the human experience celebrated on the grand tapestry of world literature, during these short formative years.

Reverent-One

2014-01-21, 09:35 PM

Pronounceable

2014-01-21, 09:39 PM

This talk of brutality in Illiad and Lovecraft and vampires and so forth reminded me of something hitherto unmentioned in this thread: 1984.
(I'm not sure why I felt a need to use hitherto in a sentence)
If she likes books in which bad **** (TM) happens, maybe she'd like that and other dystopic fare. This is probably a terrible suggestion for most kids but there are exceptions to everything.

MLai

2014-01-21, 10:12 PM

No, it's speaking from not obsessing about the gender breakdown of characters in a book to the extent of ignoring any positive aspects of it. No one's saying she should not read any books with female characters, so reading The Hobbit isn't going to harm her in any way.
Obsessing? How about Acknowledging?

It's not about "gender breakdown in a book." It's about asking a 14-y/o girl to read a book that is 276-330 pages long (as a kid it was the thickest fiction book I had ever seen), in which not a single woman or woman's issue appears.

How many 276-330-pages recreational books do you think an average schoolgirl gets to read during her teenage-hood? I remember I didn't read that many, because the majority of my reading time was devoted to schoolwork textbooks, or required readings, so when I had free time I had rather not open yet another book.

Reverent-One

2014-01-21, 10:23 PM

MLai

2014-01-21, 10:36 PM

Which doesn't matter, because people aren't suggesting it for it's portrayal of gendered issues. A good story is a good story and worth reading for that alone.
How good is a story that doesn't even pretend to speak to you or acknowledge your existence?
You really really don't understand why I'm saying this, do you.

Well, since apparently anecdotal evidence is alright, I can say I read dozens in that time, if not more (especially if you count re-reads). Do you think she's only going to read one?
I think some people don't really think about the recipient of a gift. They only think about themselves.

As for your question? I read many recreational books during my teenage years. But only a finite number of them in English prose. Oh look, that may very well be the situation with this multi-lingual girl.

Reverent-One

2014-01-21, 10:48 PM

How good is a story that doesn't even pretend to speak to you or acknowledge your existence?
You really really don't understand why I'm saying this, do you.

So you're saying only boys can be spoken to in terms of adventure, facing your fears, overcoming greed? That half the people in the world can't "get" the Hobbit because of their gender? Huh, that seems rather sexist. Don't get me wrong, having role models of your gender to look up to is great, but it's not required from every work of fiction one consumes.

I think some people don't really think about the recipient of a gift. They only think about themselves.

As for your question? I read many recreational books during my teenage years. But only a finite number of them in English prose. Oh look, that may very well be the situation with this multi-lingual girl.

I'm pretty sure she's only going to read a finite number too, since, you know, reading an infinite number is pretty much impossible. :smalltongue: No reason The Hobbit can't be one of them.

The_Snark

2014-01-21, 11:28 PM

How good is a story that doesn't even pretend to speak to you or acknowledge your existence?
You really really don't understand why I'm saying this, do you.

Easy enough to fix that! (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/is-bilbo-baggins-a-girl-9016619.html)

Really though, I appreciate the sentiment you're trying to express, but many women and girls have read and enjoyed The Hobbit. It's not a shining example of gender equality or gender anything, but it's still fun. If the OP's niece can deal with the problematic elements in Greek epics and myths, she can handle this.

That's not to say she will like The Hobbit, because tastes differ (as some of the above posters indicate). But if my parents had avoided giving me that book because it didn't have any female characters, I would missed out, because I loved that book as a kid.

warty goblin

2014-01-21, 11:48 PM

@ Not directly related to OP, so OP can ignore:

Let's take this into perspective: We are boys/men/male. And if we (many/some of the ppl here) are Caucasian, that makes us white male.
We are free to read fiction featuring whoever and whatever, because the Western literary world is mostly catered to us.
"OMG why are you denying this Greek girl a classic of British literature all about Men's-Adventures-Women-Not-Allowed, written by an old white British gentleman author?!" This is classic Speaking From Privilege.\

How many books can a schoolgirl really consume, and take into her heart? Unless she's a voracious reader, I would say a pretty finite number of books. I would rather she read books where she feels a woman has a place and a voice, where women are part of the human experience celebrated on the grand tapestry of world literature, during these short formative years.

I suggested a book, or rather seconded somebody else's suggestion. I also suggested that a person could perhaps look past the lack of gender representation and enjoy a book anyways. Yes, I made this suggestion as a white male. If this crossed a line for anybody of a different gender, I'm very sorry. I did not mean any offense, it seemed a fairly mild and inclusive sort of suggestion at the time, although I made it in a snippier sort of way than it needed to be. If I have given offense, please let me know, so I don't do it again.

To continue apace, I'm not going to castigate anybody for deciding the Hobbit is too much of a sausage fest for their taste. That's a perfectly sensible decision for a person to make for herself - or himself for that matter. However I'm also going to trust that a person has the ability and discernment to make that determination for herself or himself, and does not need me or anybody else riding around on a unicorn protecting them. Deciding that a girl shouldn't read the Hobbit because it'll warp her delicate girl-brain is just weird. No, it's not weird. It's goddamn patronizing, that's what it is.

I believe the term de jour for this is white knighting, and it's the fuzzy-wuzzy version of patriarchy. I'm not going to pursue this farther, because nobody's interests are served getting the thread locked, and one white man scoring points off of another white man for doing feminism wrong is some thin ice I have no desire to venture very far on.

Oh, and speaking from my formative years, I read a small truckload. It was definitely finite, but large enough to be getting on with. Can't say I took them all into my heart*, but last I checked that was hardly a required condition for sitting down and reading a fun little novel. It's not like the Hobbit is particularly difficult or time-consuming either. I think I'd read it by the time I was ten, and certainly by twelve.

*In the case of Terry Goodkind, more like the bladder. Damn things are still pissing me off.

Kitten Champion

2014-01-22, 12:18 AM

I wouldn't recommend the Hobbit to someone whose personal library is overwhelmingly contemporary paranormal romances, regardless of ethnicity or sex. If you love Twilight your affection for melodrama must be considerable.

cobaltstarfire

2014-01-22, 01:06 AM

Obsessing? How about Acknowledging?

It's not about "gender breakdown in a book." It's about asking a 14-y/o girl to read a book that is 276-330 pages long (as a kid it was the thickest fiction book I had ever seen), in which not a single woman or woman's issue appears.

How many 276-330-pages recreational books do you think an average schoolgirl gets to read during her teenage-hood? I remember I didn't read that many, because the majority of my reading time was devoted to schoolwork textbooks, or required readings, so when I had free time I had rather not open yet another book.

So what's your point? I'm female and brown, and I read The Hobbit and liked it around the age of 14. And there are plenty of other girls out there who have enjoyed it as well.

I don't think I'd actually recommend the Hobbit for her though (even though she liked the movie) same for LotR and the Silmarilion, mostly just based on the other books you've mentioned (well of the ones I know of or have read myself). I also don't get the feeling that Enders game would be too interesting to her, but maybe it would, it's worth a try probably?

I'm going to suggest things but I dunno if they are available in Greek. I mostly read adventure/fantasy

Since the niece in question apparently likes adventurey movies and stuff, she might like the Redwall series. (I dunno if it'll bother you or her that it's pretty black and white in who can be evil though, all foxes/ferrets/weasles/ect are always evil, all mice/squirrels/otters/hares are always good). A good number of the books have weird riddles and puzzles, and are guaranteed to make you super hungry at least twice. Probably not the best to read all of the books of as sometimes things get rehashed a bunch.

Anne McCaffrey, as has been mentioned, the dragonsinger series is great. Many of the original Pern books are pretty fun (not as keen on Todd McCaffreys stuff but it's passable) The Acorna series may also work. Acorna (The Unicorn Girl) is about an alien girl, with some unicorny features that some asteroid miners rescue and raise (more of the series is about her independent adventures when she gets older), lots of adventures in space, and she eventually finds her home planet and some other things. Lots of very interesting characters, a good sense of humor and a pretty fun read overall.

I've only read one series by Mercedes Lackey (one with gryphons) but her writing style was very similar to Anne McCaffrey, so if Anne McCaffrey is a choice, I imagine Mercedes Lackey would be as well.

Also, Tamora Pierce has some fun reads, she does handle themes of death and sex a little bit, but not really in a way that should be considered objectionable. I've read the Immortals series, and the Protector of the Small series. The later being my fav of the two, it's about a girl who wants to become a knight, and follows her from her time training to her first mission as a knight. Protector of the small is also a bit better written I believe.

Laurence Yep seems good as well (I've only read her Dragon series but it was quite nice). I actually can't remember it very clearly as I read it during a time where much of my memory is just gone for some reason, but I do remember really being frustrated that the school library was missing the last book and really wanting to read it.

The Enchanted Forest Chronicles by Patricia Wrede was interesting too. It's about a princess who runs away to live with dragons, she has to turn away at least one knight who's come to try and rescue her.

Those are the only things that come to mind easily right now, at least that might be of interest to your niece. Most of these books features a nice mix of adventure, and interesting social interactions. And in many cases have a variety of protagonists and fun stories in general. I hope that this was helpful!

Oh and just to throw in a personal favorite (for when she gets a bit older) Dune, yeah, ok Dune is a little slow to start (not as slow as LotR atleast) but it is quite an amazing read if you like political intrigue, neat sci fi, and er..things.

Remmirath

2014-01-22, 01:13 AM

I would say The Hobbit is an entirely reasonable thing to recommend, based on the assumption that someone who has seen the film adaptations may be interested in the real thing. From there, The Lord of the Rings is reasonable as another suggestion. I don't know how well they have been translated into Greek, but I know that at least some of the translations are quite decent. While I do love it, The Silmarillion is not something I would recommend to somebody reading it in their second language, and also probably only to somebody who already is very fond of Middle-earth. I read The Hobbit when I was five, The Lord of the Rings when I was six, and The Silmarillion when I was eight, but I'm told those would not be the typical ages at which one would have read them. Still, in one's own language, I would not say that they are difficult.

I'll also agree that The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy might be a good choice, as well as the Dragonriders of Pern books (and agree that Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, and Dragondrums are probably the most appropriate in this context, although I was always fond of Dragonflight and Dragonquest) and for horror the works of H.P. Lovecraft. Those I believe I read all around eight the first time, though possibly a few years earlier with The Hitchiker's Guide. Oh, I'll also agree that Tamora Pierce's books are a good suggestion, particularly the Song of the Lioness and Protector of the Small ones.

Now, on to other suggestions.

The Young Wizards series by Diane Duane occurs to me as an example of modern fantasy type books which are quite enjoyable. They have an interesting magic system, and plenty of interesting characters. It's a decently long series at this point, but I mostly recommend the first four (So You Want To Be A Wizard, Deep Wizardry, High Wizardry, A Wizard Abroad). I began reading them when I was nine, but I still like re-reading them now and again.

The Elric Saga by Michael Moorcock, as well as to some extent The Chronicles of Corum, probably have the same features as at least what I consider to be the good features of anything to do with vampires... so, possibility? I believe I was eleven when I read these.

When I was thirteen, I was very fond of the Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey, especially the Last Herald-Mage trilogy and the Vows and Honour books. They're fantasy, and although some of the books get a bit dark in places, I would say mostly not of a very dark nature (although everyone's definition of this seems to vary).

The Darkover series by Marion Zimmer Bradley is another I'd recommend, and one can really just read any few books from it quite easily without reading the whole series. They tend towards a slightly darker bent than the previous suggestion, and are mostly somewhere between fantasy and science fiction. I was five when I read the first one, but I think I read most of them when I was seven or eight.

The Dalemark Quartet and particularly Cart and Cwidder by Diana Wynne Jones is another thing I was fond of around age twelve. It's also mostly fantasy, although there is if I recall correctly also some modern cross-over type stuff in the last book.

You mentioned that she likes mythology, and so that made me think of The Hounds of the Morrigan by Pat O'Shea. It's heavily based on Celtic mythology, a standalone book, and starts off in a modern setting. I was eight when I read it, I believe.

The Witches of Karres by James H. Schmitz is a fun standalone science fiction book. I don't see whether she likes science fiction or not. It isn't hard science fiction, but it's a very enjoyable read. I believe I was seven when I read it first.

Space Winners by Gordon Dickson is another standalone space adventure; I'm not sure about its availability, as my copy is quite old and I have not happened to see it in a bookstore. I read it first when I was nine.

Sherlock Holmes stories don't really have anything to do with what she's read yet or movies she's displayed interest in, but I tend to think they're a decent recommendation for most situations nonetheless.

Dune is another one that I feel ought to be suggested, and I think it's interesting and readable enough that people who aren't yet interested in science fiction might like it also. I was eleven when I read it.

The Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny is another that I think might have some things in common with the good parts of vampire tales, but this is where I should probably reveal that "the good parts of vampire tales" and "immortals with decadent courts scheming to murder each other, along with a sense of doom surrounding the protagonists in some fashion" are about the same to me (and that I have not actually read very many at all books to do with vampires). I read these much more recently first, at twenty, but I expect I would've enjoyed them as early as ten.

The Nightrunner series by Lynn Flewelling is another that I read more recently, at twenty. It is fantasy, with a fair amount of mystery as well, and has an interesting world and characters.

My descriptions appear to be getting rather one note and vague, so I'll take this as a sign that the hour is too late to be doing this coherently. If I think of anything else, I'll write it up later.

It's not about "gender breakdown in a book." It's about asking a 14-y/o girl to read a book that is 276-330 pages long (as a kid it was the thickest fiction book I had ever seen), in which not a single woman or woman's issue appears.

I don't know about you, but I don't read fiction to read about real-world issues. I read it for interesting stories and characters, and engaging or awesome worlds. Sometimes I might, perhaps, read science fiction to read about real-world issues (albeit in a tangential fashion), but fantasy? No.

I will also say that I never have cared whether the characters I'm reading about are my own gender or not, or look a thing like me or not. If I find the story and the characters and the setting interesting, I will likely enjoy the book. Perhaps some people only like books in which characters like themselves feature prominently, but I can't imagine it's a very common viewpoint.

How many 276-330-pages recreational books do you think an average schoolgirl gets to read during her teenage-hood? I remember I didn't read that many, because the majority of my reading time was devoted to schoolwork textbooks, or required readings, so when I had free time I had rather not open yet another book.

It was somewhere between three and four hundred for me, but that might not be average... one or two hundred, perhaps? At the very lowest end fifty?

Avilan the Grey

2014-01-22, 02:38 AM

Firstly because the overwhelming majority of porn is produced for straight men, and a good chunk of the remainder for gay men. Actual female-centric porn certainly exists, but is a good deal harder to find.

Also everything is hotter given the proper context, which Lady Chatterly provides. And at least in the States, its understanding of sexuality is frankly still a good deal more sophisticated than the mainstream cultural discourse.

On the other hand sophistication and erotica can be seen as opposite ends of a spectrum. Not to bring this up in the context of recommendations to a 14 year old girl, but most people read erotica to get aroused. If you have to pay attention to hidden themes, subtext and other crap (in this context) that kind of negates the point of having a nice solo romp before bedtime.

And again, for good female-written classic erotica, why not Anaiis Nin's short stories?

How good is a story that doesn't even pretend to speak to you or acknowledge your existence?
You really really don't understand why I'm saying this, do you.

Of course not. Because your arguments doesn't make sense. A good story is a good story. If you honestly believe she will like it less, or even be harmed by it, because there are no females in it... I can't muster any deeper reply than: "You're totally wrong.".

Seriously, your argument is just coming across as someone being offended on someone else's behalf, without checking if that person really is offended.

As for recommendations:
How about The Dresden Files? Urban Fantasy at it's finest, detective stories with Wizards in them.

Or if you want a female writer witha strong female protagonist: The Deed Of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon.

Ibrinar

2014-01-22, 08:44 AM

I really don't recommend gifting some The Deeds of Paksenarrion without knowing their tolerance for boring parts. Or at least read it first before gifting it. Oh I liked it, I found the beginning interesting which is the only reason that I managed to get through the part after that.
I liked it again after
she left the company
but the part in between was a drag. The hope that it would get more interesting got me through it, but there was a decent chance that I would drop it. Though I think it was worth it in the end.

Someone mentioned The Chronicles of Amber, still not sure how much I actually like it, it's interesting, I like the scheming, but I don't really like the characters. Not in the sense that they are bad characters, but that I don't particularily care about them. Anyway what I wanted to say: It's quite long. Ten books, although each of them individually is short. A plus in my eyes, but not everyone like that.

Hmm a few recommendations, for fun female protagonists only and only stuff I read in the last few years:
Graceling
The Emperor's Soul (Brandon Sanderson) but it's quite short, only 128 pages according to amazon.
Elantris (Also Brandon Sanderson)
Alphabet of Thorn (Patricia A. McKillip) but I recommend reading it before giving it as a gift, I like it because it's a different style from many fantasy books I read. However the things I like about it could make it boring for others.
Magic Bites (Ilona Andrews) decent urban fantasy. Though I could do without it romance sub plot. Series with several books.
First Truth (Dawn Cook)
Angelfall (Penryn & the End of Days), apocalyptic setting. Angels are the enemy/danger. (Though one is also an ally and thus obviously the romantic interest after a while.)

Palanan

2014-01-22, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ibrinar
The Emperor's Soul (Brandon Sanderson) but it's quite short, only 128 pages according to amazon.

This is a novella which I've been champing at the bit to read; it was one of the first things I got with my Amazon gift card this year. Just waiting for the right moment to start.

Elantris is good, but quite sloggy in some places if you're not already a strong Brandon Sanderson fan. The first Mistborn novel is probably a better place to start, since Vin is just a few years older than the intended audience here.

Brandon Sanderson has also written a couple of specifically YA novels, which I haven't read myself, but I'd definitely recommend them based on his strengths as a storyteller and a magnificent weaver of worlds. Really, it's hard to go wrong with Brandon Sanderson.

Originally Posted by Remmirath
*ton o' good suggestions*

One of the best contributions to the thread so far, despite the very late-night composition. (Or because of it? ;) I should probably check some of those out.

Originally Posted by Remmirath
Dune is another one that I feel ought to be suggested, and I think it's interesting and readable enough that people who aren't yet interested in science fiction might like it also. I was eleven when I read it.

Certainly worth suggesting, although in my case I tried to read it when I was thirteen-ish and couldn't get into it at all. At that time I was deeply engaged in the original Dragonriders of Pern trilogy, plus The Silmarillion, and Dune just didn't connect for me. I've tried the series once or twice since then, and for whatever reason it didn't take.

Speaking of classic SF, however, Asimov's Foundation trilogy is fantastic--I think it's been mentioned before, but Second Foundation in particular might be an excellent choice here, entirely because of Arkady Darell: a great character, fourteen years old herself, and a really engaging protagonist. I read the series quite a while ago, and she's one of two characters who really stand out as memorable.

(The other is the Mule, although he and Arkady never met.)

.

GolemsVoice

2014-01-22, 10:57 AM

I don't know if they have been translated into English, let alone Greek, so I fear you're out of luck here, but when i was young I totally loved the "Caveworld-Saga" by German author Harald Evers. The main character's even a girl, so she'll be fine if she reads it. It's been a while since I've read the books, but I remember that I liked the scientific way in which magic was presented, and we knew how it worked, yet it still preserved a lot of fantastic magical feeling.

As far as I remember, there is some, mild sexuality, so (if it's translated) maybe you should decide how much of that is appropriate for your niece.

warty goblin

2014-01-22, 11:34 AM

Since the niece in question apparently likes adventurey movies and stuff, she might like the Redwall series. (I dunno if it'll bother you or her that it's pretty black and white in who can be evil though, all foxes/ferrets/weasles/ect are always evil, all mice/squirrels/otters/hares are always good). A good number of the books have weird riddles and puzzles, and are guaranteed to make you super hungry at least twice. Probably not the best to read all of the books of as sometimes things get rehashed a bunch.

Redwall is fantastic, so long as a person remembers to stop after the first couple. Redwall is great, I think Mossflower is probably the best, the next couple are decent, but after that it's pretty downhill.

Also, Tamora Pierce has some fun reads, she does handle themes of death and sex a little bit, but not really in a way that should be considered objectionable. I've read the Immortals series, and the Protector of the Small series. The later being my fav of the two, it's about a girl who wants to become a knight, and follows her from her time training to her first mission as a knight. Protector of the small is also a bit better written I believe.
I absolutely loved Tamora Pierce when I was small. Hell, I still keep a copy of Alanna: The First Adventure in my backpack as an emergency read. I never could get into her non-Tortal books though; they had an insufficient Sword:Magic ratio.

On the other hand sophistication and erotica can be seen as opposite ends of a spectrum. Not to bring this up in the context of recommendations to a 14 year old girl, but most people read erotica to get aroused. If you have to pay attention to hidden themes, subtext and other crap (in this context) that kind of negates the point of having a nice solo romp before bedtime.
I've never really had that be a problem. The hot parts are hot on their own, and made more hot by the meaning granted by the rest of the story. In no small part because the first half of the book is astonishingly depressing, so Lady Chatterly finally screwing the brains out of her lover isn't just hot, it's actually triumphant.

And again, for good female-written classic erotica, why not Anaiis Nin's short stories?Mostly because I've never read 'em. Can't recommend what I don't know. And just for the record, Lady Chatterly's Lover was written by the quite male D.H. Lawrence.

Eonas

2014-01-22, 11:38 AM

At her age I had finished everything by Edgar Allen Poe and was nearly done with Lovecraft.

I don't have any constructive addition to the thread, but this impressed me. At 14, I would have struggled with just getting through Lovecraft's prose, let alone reading most of his bibliography.

Reverent-One

2014-01-22, 11:52 AM

Redwall is fantastic, so long as a person remembers to stop after the first couple. Redwall is great, I think Mossflower is probably the best, the next couple are decent, but after that it's pretty downhill.

I disagree that it's that simple. There's ups and downs, but there are some good books down the line, most notably to me is Lord Brocktree.

An Individual

2014-01-22, 11:54 AM

I'd recommend anything by Terry Pratchett, especially Carpe Jugulum or Night Watch.

warty goblin

2014-01-22, 01:44 PM

I disagree that it's that simple. There's ups and downs, but there are some good books down the line, most notably to me is Lord Brocktree.

This is true, particularly once they start to move away from the 'evil horde tries to destroy Redwall again' plot. For a while there I was getting the distinct impression that every single stone of the place had some prophesy or other carved in it, and poor Martin must have spent his entire retirement having mystic dreams and chiseling cryptic verse. However you can certainly pick up a lot of the high points of the series in the first couple books.

Coidzor

2014-01-22, 02:21 PM

Hmm. Neuromancer by William Gibson or Saturn's Children by Charles Stross might be interesting, the first for potentially introducing her to a new interest in cyberpunk and the latter for riffing on the subject of obsessive desire that seems to be part and parcel of paranormal romance while also showing a rather interesting take on a post-human world. I wouldn't have suggested Saturn's Children initially considering the girl is 14 and all, but since straight-up erotica has been suggested at this point, I figured, eh, it's tame in comparison to that. And, upon reflection, tamer than most of the sex scenes in urban fantasy.

This is true, particularly once they start to move away from the 'evil horde tries to destroy Redwall again' plot. For a while there I was getting the distinct impression that every single stone of the place had some prophesy or other carved in it, and poor Martin must have spent his entire retirement having mystic dreams and chiseling cryptic verse.

However you can certainly pick up a lot of the high points of the series in the first couple books.

I just imagined him as sort of a troll, chortling to himself as he put the place together and whapped his accomplices over the head with his old man stick until they forgot what they helped him with. XD

Agreed.

thubby

2014-01-22, 02:28 PM

anything by john green. he does write for young adults but I've never found anything patronizing or shallow about his work.

but really, i think it's a mistake to try and pressure her on this. she like reading, she'll find her groove. take her to a bookstore and let her find some books. she'll develop her own tastes and that's what you really want.

BWR

2014-01-22, 04:20 PM

I don't have any constructive addition to the thread, but this impressed me. At 14, I would have struggled with just getting through Lovecraft's prose, let alone reading most of his bibliography.

Eh, I was always a good and fast reader. I've gotten a bit sloppy in recent years. I'll admit there were a number of words I had to ask what meant or look up, but my parents are awesome and could usually answer my questions, and if not we had a something like half a dozen dictionaries of varying size and detail, including a copy of the OED so I was always able to find out words used.

I'll also admit that 'The Lurking Fear' by Lovecraft gave me nightmares.

Avilan the Grey

2014-01-22, 04:34 PM

Eh, I was always a good and fast reader. I've gotten a bit sloppy in recent years. I'll admit there were a number of words I had to ask what meant or look up, but my parents are awesome and could usually answer my questions, and if not we had a something like half a dozen dictionaries of varying size and detail, including a copy of the OED so I was always able to find out words used.

I'll also admit that 'The Lurking Fear' by Lovecraft gave me nightmares.

Never read any Lovercraft. I DID read the Michael Strogoff: The Courier of the Czar (Jules Verne) in third grade, so that's my claim to fame.

cobaltstarfire

2014-01-22, 05:49 PM

This is true, particularly once they start to move away from the 'evil horde tries to destroy Redwall again' plot. For a while there I was getting the distinct impression that every single stone of the place had some prophesy or other carved in it, and poor Martin must have spent his entire retirement having mystic dreams and chiseling cryptic verse. However you can certainly pick up a lot of the high points of the series in the first couple books.

The one with Sarobando in it was pretty unique and enjoyable (can't remember the name, unless Sarobando was the name). It lacked quite a lot of the tropes codefied in most of the rest of the Redwall books. The Tagerung was interesting too, or I may be biased cause I feel the squirrels and otters always had more interesting characters. Also the Long Patrol...

But yeah the original three are a good group, and it has the advantage of narrowing down the series.

I don't know that I've read all of them, but I have read quite a few of them and yeah, I also feel that it has it's ups and downs more than just going straight downhill. (Outcast really disappointed me, and was when I learned that for Brian Jasques all species are always x).

warty goblin

2014-01-22, 06:36 PM

The one with Sarobando in it was pretty unique and enjoyable (can't remember the name, unless Sarobando was the name). It lacked quite a lot of the tropes codefied in most of the rest of the Redwall books. The Tagerung was interesting too, or I may be biased cause I feel the squirrels and otters always had more interesting characters. Also the Long Patrol...

I think that's farther than I made it in the series, though I can't remember exactly where I bailed out.

I don't know that I've read all of them, but I have read quite a few of them and yeah, I also feel that it has it's ups and downs more than just going straight downhill. (Outcast really disappointed me, and was when I learned that for Brian Jasques all species are always x).
I seem to recall there being like one good (or at least redeemed) ferret at some point. Pearls of Lutra maybe?

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-22, 07:08 PM

Hmm. Neuromancer by William Gibson or Saturn's Children by Charles Stross might be interesting...

Blargh, I really did NOT like Saturn's Children. Interesting concepts, but I thought the writing was just awful. In particular, I found his attempts at explaining the neat robot he'd created particularly ham-fisted - lots of lines that essentially amounted to the main character doing something mundane, and following it up with a line like, "If I were one of my true love's race*, I'd have to do things this way, but instead I can do things this way!"

I enjoyed Glasshouse, but in general I find that Stross a writer who cares more about interesting ideas than interesting prose. Sometimes I can deal with that, but a lot of times I find him pretty hard to take.

*humans, natch.

Avilan the Grey

2014-01-23, 02:12 AM

Heh, come to think of it... What about anything Jules Verne?

BWR

2014-01-23, 04:39 AM

Blargh, I really did NOT like Saturn's Children. Interesting concepts, but I thought the writing was just awful. In particular, I found his attempts at explaining the neat robot he'd created particularly ham-fisted - lots of lines that essentially amounted to the main character doing something mundane, and following it up with a line like, "If I were one of my true love's race*, I'd have to do things this way, but instead I can do things this way!"

I enjoyed Glasshouse, but in general I find that Stross a writer who cares more about interesting ideas than interesting prose. Sometimes I can deal with that, but a lot of times I find him pretty hard to take.

*humans, natch.

I'll agree that Saturn's Children was not Stross' best work, possibly his worst, but it helps to remember that it was his attempt at writing a Robert Heinlein story. I think he rather successfully emulated much of Heinlein's style, which is probably why that book has some glaring problems.

Kato

2014-01-23, 04:52 AM

I'd recommend anything by Terry Pratchett, especially Carpe Jugulum or Night Watch.

While I didn't read them as a child, I think the Aching series (or the other Young Adult Discworld book "Maurice and his educated rodents" (or something similar)) are likely a better start into the series. Yeah, you can read most Discworld books as a 14 year old but why not start with the ones intended for your age?

MLai

2014-01-23, 05:42 AM

Seriously, your argument is just coming across as someone being offended on someone else's behalf, without checking if that person really is offended..
Spare me the hyperbole. Was I offended by The Hobbit? No I merely said I don't recommend it as there are better choices.
And that's basically the stock answer for those who resorted to accusing me of "white knighting", etc. Please.
I know you like The Hobbit, but really it's so full of old timey British Gentleman conceits, it's not that great a story. We've already talked about inadvertent racism in Tolkien; that's not the only issue there's other issues too.
I do like that article where the writer changed Bilbo to Bilba(?) for her daughter, though.

Socratov

2014-01-23, 06:51 AM

I son't know if I'm too late or what, but I'd recommend the Artemis Fowl books. It starts out with an extremely intelligent evil boy trying to take gold of fairies and it progresses into quite the compelling series with some heartbreaking moments. It's actually comparable (and in my opinion better then) Harry Potter.

Avilan the Grey

2014-01-23, 07:16 AM

Spare me the hyperbole. Was I offended by The Hobbit? No I merely said I don't recommend it as there are better choices.
And that's basically the stock answer for those who resorted to accusing me of "white knighting", etc. Please.
I know you like The Hobbit, but really it's so full of old timey British Gentleman conceits, it's not that great a story. We've already talked about inadvertent racism in Tolkien; that's not the only issue there's other issues too.
I do like that article where the writer changed Bilbo to Bilba(?) for her daughter, though.

I didn't say you were offended. I said you were offended on someone else's behalf. I also don't see why.

Reverent-One

2014-01-23, 10:35 AM

Piggy Knowles

2014-01-23, 11:19 AM

I'll agree that Saturn's Children was not Stross' best work, possibly his worst, but it helps to remember that it was his attempt at writing a Robert Heinlein story. I think he rather successfully emulated much of Heinlein's style, which is probably why that book has some glaring problems.

Ha, that does actually do a pretty good job of putting it into perspective, since pieces of it really did remind me of Heinlein's YA stuff.

Sith_Happens

2014-01-23, 02:31 PM

Zrak

2014-01-23, 03:02 PM

I'd second recommendations for Marquez, Bardley's Darkover, most LeGuin, Hitchhiker's Guide, Johnathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, Neuromancer, and probably some other titles I missed zooming over the thread. Also, if Jane Eyre is/was a success, I'd also recommend the less read Villette, which is the superior novel if you ask me. The scene in the art gallery is probably the most insightful and moving discourse on gender in a Victorian novel, though a number of scenes in Middlemarch certainly rival it.
One thing to keep in mind about Umberto Eco is that a lot of his works draw a great deal of their strength through intertextuality that might go over her head simply because she's unlikely to have read a lot of the stuff being referenced. I actually haven't read Baudolino, somehow, so I'm not sure how much that applies to it.
Also, I'd make a tentative suggestion for John Fowles, though I'm not sure where I'd recommend starting. The Collector is probably the most obvious place to start, since one of its two characters is an adolescent girl, but it's very dark and very unpleasant. Basically, it's the story of a deranged man who kidnaps a young artist, told once through his perspective and then again through hers. It's extremely well written and its form allows it to develop a lot of its ideas without overplaying its hand, but I could easily see someone of fourteen being out of their emotional depth. I was about sixteen when I read it, maybe seventeen, and I found parts of it wrenching in ways few other books are, for reasons I still find difficult to pinpoint.

It's a deep and powerful novel, but I have a feeling 98% of it will sail right past a fourteen-year-old.

Also, I can't speak for anywhere else, but I read that as an English major and it was presented as a classic, and rightfully so. Not sure who or where would consider it underrated.
Really? I think 14 or so is the perfect age for it, since I think the impact is stronger the more one initially identifies with Pechorin's brooding discontent.

I suppose I mostly meant that it's one of the Russian classics that someone who isn't Russian and/or a lit major isn't likely to have heard of.

While we're knocking modern interpretations of Homer back and fourth, I am quite fond of a novel called The Song of Achilles, which is written entirely from Patroklus' viewpoint.

I was going to recommend this same book as soon as I saw her post.

Compared to the dull nationalism of the Aeneid, or even the weirdness of the Odyssey, it's pretty stunning.

I think it's worth re-reading The Aeneid after reading some commentary and criticism. I initially shared your opinion, but after encountering some interpretations that characterized its tone as subversively pessimistic, I was won over in subsequent readings. At best, it reads as one of the most vicious and bitter satires of all time, at worst it's at least fun to imagine Virgil emperor's-new-clothesing Augustus as you read certain particularly ambiguous passages.

"OMG why are you denying this Greek girl a classic of British literature all about Men's-Adventures-Women-Not-Allowed, written by an old white British gentleman author?!" This is classic Speaking From Privilege.
I would contend that telling someone what she can't or shouldn't read because of her gender is classic "speaking from privilege."

How good is a story that doesn't even pretend to speak to you or acknowledge your existence?
You really really don't understand why I'm saying this, do you.
I really don't. I find the notion of literature-by-chromosome or literature-by-blood-quantum baseless and patronizing; the idea that I would somehow rather read or be more affected by Sherman Alexie than Tolstoy or Proust strikes me as patently absurd.

HeadlessMermaid

2014-01-24, 12:24 AM

One thing to keep in mind about Umberto Eco is that a lot of his works draw a great deal of their strength through intertextuality that might go over her head simply because she's unlikely to have read a lot of the stuff being referenced. I actually haven't read Baudolino, somehow, so I'm not sure how much that applies to it.
I think that this applies to most of Eco's readers, with the possible exception of people book collectors with PhDs in semiotics, medieval history and literature. :smalleek: I'm sure I've missed tons myself. Every now and then I stumble upon something that makes me go "oh! so THAT'S where friar William's deductions about that missing horse came from!"

But some of the references are transparent (so they introduce you to stuff and prompt you to look for them, which is always nice), some are trackable via his non-fiction works (which are wildly popular around these parts, I'm sure she'll get to them eventually), and in any case Eco's novels are enjoyable on so many levels, that it's a shame to miss out on them just because you'll miss the references.

Baudolino has a crapload of references (waiting to be missed :smalltongue:) and an impressive assortment of fantastical creatures that would make Borges blush. Though it's not nearly as good as Foucault's Pendulum or The Name of the Rose, IMO.

The Name of the Rose would be a great start, though people often groan about the Latin. There is an edition were everything in Latin is translated directly in the text (instead of an annotation at the bottom of the page), but I consider this savagery and want to nothing to do with it. :smalltongue:

Also, I'd make a tentative suggestion for John Fowles, though I'm not sure where I'd recommend starting.
I've only read The Magus, and it was odd, because while so many elements appealed to me, the sum somehow failed to entrance me. I remember very vividly some scattered scenes, and I think I should read it again, actually. (I got it in English probably too early, and the vocabulary was slightly more than I could chew at the time.) But I think Fowles is unsettling in a way that's not for everyone.

I think it's worth re-reading The Aeneid after reading some commentary and criticism. I initially shared your opinion, but after encountering some interpretations that characterized its tone as subversively pessimistic, I was won over in subsequent readings. At best, it reads as one of the most vicious and bitter satires of all time, at worst it's at least fun to imagine Virgil emperor's-new-clothesing Augustus as you read certain particularly ambiguous passages.
Any suggestions on where to find such commentary and criticism? I'd be very interested.

Avilan the Grey

2014-01-24, 02:27 AM

I would contend that telling someone what she can't or shouldn't read because of her gender is classic "speaking from privilege."

Indeed. It kinda reeks of enforcing gender roles, by insisting she cannot possibly like a book with a male protagonist.

Zrak

2014-01-24, 02:36 PM

The Name of the Rose would be a great start, though people often groan about the Latin. There is an edition were everything in Latin is translated directly in the text (instead of an annotation at the bottom of the page), but I consider this savagery and want to nothing to do with it. :smalltongue:
Isn't part of Baudolino in not-even-Latin-exactly? I remember reading about it in a "Problems of Translation" essay.

I've only read The Magus, and it was odd, because while so many elements appealed to me, the sum somehow failed to entrance me. I remember very vividly some scattered scenes, and I think I should read it again, actually. (I got it in English probably too early, and the vocabulary was slightly more than I could chew at the time.) But I think Fowles is unsettling in a way that's not for everyone.
I actually kind of had the same feeling about The Magus, actually. It reminds me of non-Grendel Gardner, in that you can sense the talent and intelligence behind the writing, but something about it just fails to connect. The French Lieutenant's Woman is a good choice if you'd like something a little less unsettling and you like intertextuality and metafiction, The Collector is much more unsettling and generally straightforward. Mantissa is just not very good, unfortunately. I've heard good things about The Ebony Tower, which is a collection of interwoven short stories, but haven't read it.

Any suggestions on where to find such commentary and criticism? I'd be very interested.
From memory, no idea; I haven't read a commentary on Virgil in years. I can look into it, though. I probably even have my old Latin notes somewhere at my parents' house, it'd be fun to look through them next time I'm over there. :smallsmile: