A non-metaphysical thought about Durkon

[Rift_Wolf]

I pointed this out in a thread about Durkon's alignment, but it got lost in alignment arguments and debates about whether vampires have souls...

I can't link to pages (dang blackberry) but earlier on Durkon and Malack were discussing Hel and the fact she had no followers or clerics. What if Durkon's the first? Dwarves seem to have a zero tolerance to undead. It even showed Hel during the Durkon/Malack showdown, to remind the audience about the Dwarven theology.

What if the very first cleric to the Goddess of Death is exactly what the High Priest of Odin feared? What if he isn't just an undead monster, but the usurper of a priesthood and pantheon that ultimately failed him?

[RMS Oceanic]

It's a popular theory around here, and I like it, but it seems his first replenishment of spells has been non-theistic, so the question is how does he decide to follow Hel?

Also her domains including Death and Destruction would be another possible (and popular) interpretation of Odin's prophecy.

[Vinyadan]

What if the very first cleric to the Goddess of Death is exactly what the High Priest of Odin feared? What if he isn't just an undead monster, but the usurper of a priesthood and pantheon that ultimately failed him?

Plus, the guy who while in life engaged himself in unmentionable acts with a priestess of Loki?

[Rift_Wolf]

Plus, the guy who while in life engaged himself in unmentionable acts with a priestess of Loki?

Sex is unmentionable now?

[Rift_Wolf]

It's a popular theory around here, and I like it, but it seems his first replenishment of spells has been non-theistic, so the question is how does he decide to follow Hel?
Also her domains including Death and Destruction would be another possible (and popular) interpretation of Odin's prophecy.

Don't suppose you could link me to a speculation thread? The threads I've looked at... Some of them can't be unlooked at.

[Sir_Leorik]

Sex is unmentionable now?

Not the sex, as much as the adultery. Ivan and Hilgya were lawfully married in the eyes of the Northern gods and the Dwarven ancestors, and Hilgya never filed for divorce.

[Living Oxymoron]

I can't link to pages (dang blackberry) but earlier on Durkon and Malack were discussing Hel and the fact she had no followers or clerics.

I believe the comic is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html). By the way, I liked your theory.

[factotum]

Not the sex, as much as the adultery. Ivan and Hilgya were lawfully married in the eyes of the Northern gods and the Dwarven ancestors, and Hilgya never filed for divorce.

Which Durkon didn't find out about until *after* said acts, and he shut her down pretty quickly once he realised.

[Vinyadan]

Sex is unmentionable now?

Well, this was actually a joke. But sex is not-so-often-mentionable, and Durkon doesn't call it by its name after having made it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html)


Not the sex, as much as the adultery. Ivan and Hilgya were lawfully married in the eyes of the Northern gods and the Dwarven ancestors, and Hilgya never filed for divorce.

Also, they managed to make their respective gods go yuk yuk. That's gotta count for something for two clerics. :smallbiggrin:


Which Durkon didn't find out about until *after* said acts, and he shut her down pretty quickly once he realised.

As he says "My mum taught me tha' I should always take feelings like that, and bury them inna deep dark part o' my soul and nev'r ev'r talk about 'em again. That's the dwarven way". That sounds pretty much like unmentionable to me.

[RMS Oceanic]

Don't suppose you could link me to a speculation thread? The threads I've looked at... Some of them can't be unlooked at.

There's no one thread that comes to mind: It's a thing that I've seen all over the place.

[Trillium]

In fact, if Hel was indeed a goddess of Death and Destruction, Durkon may just establish a peaceful worship of her in Dwarfdom, technically fulfilling the prophecy.

[LuisDantas]

Wouldn't it be more appropriate if Durkon had become (or ends up becoming shortly) a priest of Nergal instead of one of Hel?

For one thing, Nergal seems to have priests already, so it is slightly more likely. For another, I'm not sure returning home as a priest of a deity that they have in their pantheon counts as bringing death and destruction.

Also, I don't quite doubt Durkon became a non-theistic cleric, but what evidence do we have one way or the other? I don't recall any right now. Help me please?

Come to think of it, Durkula still mentions Thor in #939, so I suppose he is still aligned with the Northern pantheon after all. Probably either as a priest of Thor, one of Hel or a non-theistic one.

Maybe the death and destruction that he will bring as he returns are his own?

[Amphiox]

Come to think of it, Durkula still mentions Thor in #939, so I suppose he is still aligned with the Northern pantheon after all. Probably either as a priest of Thor, one of Hel or a non-theistic one.


I would hardly count the mere mention of Thor's name in an idiom as a sign that one is aligned to any pantheon of gods, anymore than someone today exclaiming "Great Zeus!" on seeing something surprising is a sign that he is actually aligned to the pantheon of the Ancient Greeks. Seeing as Durkon grew up in the North, what other common idioms would he be likely to use?

[TheMiningDwarf]

I would hardly count the mere mention of Thor's name in an idiom as a sign that one is aligned to any pantheon of gods, anymore than someone today exclaiming "Great Zeus!" on seeing something surprising is a sign that he is actually aligned to the pantheon of the Ancient Greeks. Seeing as Durkon grew up in the North, what other common idioms would he be likely to use?

I agree it probably is just a commonplace phrase to him, nothing religious about it I could mention some real world example's but I'm sure we can all think of a few. I like to think Durkon is now a priest of Nergal unless mentioning that he's the God of Death and Destruction was just a distraction and he really Will bring death and destruction.. that would be interesting to see

[Lombard]

It's a popular theory around here, and I like it, but it seems his first replenishment of spells has been non-theistic, so the question is how does he decide to follow Hel?

How can you tell that his first replenishment of spells has been non-theistic? I thought it all happened off-panel.

[Forikroder]

I pointed this out in a thread about Durkon's alignment, but it got lost in alignment arguments and debates about whether vampires have souls...

I can't link to pages (dang blackberry) but earlier on Durkon and Malack were discussing Hel and the fact she had no followers or clerics. What if Durkon's the first? Dwarves seem to have a zero tolerance to undead. It even showed Hel during the Durkon/Malack showdown, to remind the audience about the Dwarven theology.

What if the very first cleric to the Goddess of Death is exactly what the High Priest of Odin feared? What if he isn't just an undead monster, but the usurper of a priesthood and pantheon that ultimately failed him?
why wouldnt he just worship Loki? Hel is basically the god of failure

[Snails]

why wouldnt he just worship Loki? Hel is basically the god of failure

Because you are bringing the loving embrace of failure to your enemies.

[RMS Oceanic]

How can you tell that his first replenishment of spells has been non-theistic? I thought it all happened off-panel.

That's a valid point. I guess I figured he was still nontheistic because I think his choosing a new God to follow would be an onscreen event. That and his magical aura is the same as before.

[factotum]

Wouldn't it be more appropriate if Durkon had become (or ends up becoming shortly) a priest of Nergal instead of one of Hel?

I don't see it makes a difference. Certainly I don't see why Durkon would suddenly start worshipping a Western Continent god--the fact he was turned into a vampire by a priest of Nergal doesn't suddenly mean he becomes a worshipper thereof. My own personal belief is that "death and destruction" is going to be plain old death and destruction with no clever twists--bear in mind that prophecy was made by the high priest of Odin, not by the Oracle, and doesn't require the same level of messing with the minds of the audience.

[Rift_Wolf]

I don't see it makes a difference. Certainly I don't see why Durkon would suddenly start worshipping a Western Continent god--the fact he was turned into a vampire by a priest of Nergal doesn't suddenly mean he becomes a worshipper thereof. My own personal belief is that "death and destruction" is going to be plain old death and destruction with no clever twists--bear in mind that prophecy was made by the high priest of Odin, not by the Oracle, and doesn't require the same level of messing with the minds of the audience.

I'm not expecting Durkon to bring a peaceful change to the dwarves. I'm expecting him to be raising undead dwarves and overthrowing the worship of his former incompetent God. I guess the Cleric of Hel idea is a 'Why' more than a 'How' to the prophecy.

The only reason Durkon would worship Nergal would be sentimentality for his old friend. Malack seemed to suggest Nergal didn't usually approve of undead.

As for Durkon's spells, I don't think he's prepared any as a vampire before the Mechane. I can only think of three spells he's cast; Command, Planar Ally and a spontaneous Inflict Moderate Wounds. The Prot. Sunlight was from the staff. Now, the rules on spell retention after death say you have a chance to keep them after being raised; it might be the same for vampires. We knew he'd prepared Planar Ally in the hopes of summoning a Deva. If he had prepared more spells as a nontheist, he wouldn't be out of tricks so quickly, and certainly wouldn't be using a 1st level spell to make the sand elemental drop Haley when a Harm or similar could kill it outright.

[Taelas]

Wouldn't it be more appropriate if Durkon had become (or ends up becoming shortly) a priest of Nergal instead of one of Hel?

For one thing, Nergal seems to have priests already, so it is slightly more likely. For another, I'm not sure returning home as a priest of a deity that they have in their pantheon counts as bringing death and destruction.

Also, I don't quite doubt Durkon became a non-theistic cleric, but what evidence do we have one way or the other? I don't recall any right now. Help me please?

Come to think of it, Durkula still mentions Thor in #939, so I suppose he is still aligned with the Northern pantheon after all. Probably either as a priest of Thor, one of Hel or a non-theistic one.

Maybe the death and destruction that he will bring as he returns are his own?

I see this sentiment all the time and it makes absolutely no sense!
Why would Durkon turn from his worship of the Northern Gods and start paying homage to a deity of Lizardfolk? :smallconfused:

Durkon has had nothing to do with Nergal, ever. Malack prayed to him but that is neither here nor there; I would even argue that said connection would make Durkon less likely to want him as a patron, not more.

If it is because Nergal is a death deity, then Hel is far more likely, as dhe is already someone the dwarf believes in (even if he doesn't worship her).

[factotum]

Now, the rules on spell retention after death say you have a chance to keep them after being raised; it might be the same for vampires.

Impossible to say, because by RAW a new vampire doesn't rise until three days after they "die" and of course they'd have lost their existing spells by then--whatever the Giant is doing to allow Durkon to keep casting his previously-prayed-for spells is houseruled, I think.

[hamishspence]

Magic like resurrection allows a caster who prepares spells ahead of time (like a cleric) to come back with all the uncast spells they have, still "prepared".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#deathandPreparedSpellRetention
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellSelectionandPreparatio n

Same principle could apply to being turned into an undead being.

The staff appears to have a homebrewed "Accelerate Rising" spell of some kind:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html

[Rift_Wolf]

Magic like resurrection allows a caster who prepares spells ahead of time (like a cleric) to come back with all the uncast spells they have, still "prepared".

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#deathandPreparedSpellRetention
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellSelectionandPreparatio n

Same principle could apply to being turned into an undead being.


Resurrection restores all unused spell slots. Raise Dead flips a coin for them, which would make Durkon's already depleted power even moreso. Interestingly, Reincarnate (at least on d20srd) doesn't specify, possibly because your reincarnated wizard is too busy crying 'but I don't wanna be a bugbear!'

Even more interestingly, Durkon has access to the Flash-Vamp spell via Malack's staff. That means he could get his thrall on before the Dwarves even know he's there!

[Komatik]

That's a valid point. I guess I figured he was still nontheistic because I think his choosing a new God to follow would be an onscreen event. That and his magical aura is the same as before.

Durkon being a nontheistic Cleric is Word of Giant. Check the Index.

[mightycleric]

Impossible to say, because by RAW a new vampire doesn't rise until three days after they "die" and of course they'd have lost their existing spells by then--whatever the Giant is doing to allow Durkon to keep casting his previously-prayed-for spells is houseruled, I think.

Actually, unlike Arcane casters, that have it specified that they lose their spells upon death, Divine casters don't have that same restriction, and it doesn't say they lose any spells over time, either. As such, while Clerics need to pray to get new spells each day, they still can cast any they had prepared and not cast, even from a few days ago.

As for if Durkon chooses a new deity, rather than staying non-theistic, I think Hel would be a great choice. Partially because it could be said that Durkon died of disease and is not in Valhalla, so he must "belong to Hel", and partially because, in Norse Mythology: "She is usually described as a horrible hag, half alive and half dead, with a gloomy and grim expression. Her face and body are those of a living woman, but her thighs and legs are those of a corpse, mottled and moldering."* She is seen as something undead, herself, so she might be a better diety for an undead to worship.

*Source for quote is: Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hel.html)

[RMS Oceanic]

Durkon being a nontheistic Cleric is Word of Giant. Check the Index.

You misunderstand: I've known that since 878 Durkon has been nontheistic. There was just some speculation that his first attempt to regain spells would include a sales pitch by one or more God to convert, and thus I assumed that the thaumaturgical inertia of his dweomer was evidence that no such thing happened, i.e. he's still nontheistic.