What CR would you list this encounter at?

[Pinkcrusade]

Greetings, Playground.

I was creating a boss encounter for my PCs (it is intended to be a boss fight, and based on "Optimization by the Numbers" bosses should be ECL +2 to +3) and I plan for them to encounter it at level four. So, I was wondering what CR you would give this creature, and, if you have any suggestions to what I should alter to make it more appropriate to befit the title of "boss encounter", or if there are any problems I have missed that you have detected whilst reading the sheet.



Thanks for any input!




Mzuag (Large Bugbear), Bugbear 3/Spirit Lion Barbarian 2
HD: 52
AC: 21
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft
BAB/Grapple: +4/+16
Attack: Large Longsword + 8 (2d6 +8 19-20/x2)
Full Attack: 2 Large Longsword +8/8 (2d6 +8 19-20/x2)
Space/Reach: 10ft/10ft
Special Attack: --
Special Qualities: Scent, Darkvision 60ft
Saves: Fort: 9, Ref: 4, Will: 2
Abilities: 27 Str {+8}, 16 Dex {3}, 20 Con {5}, 10 Int {0}, 6 Wis {-2}, 8 Cha {-1}
Skills: Intimidate 16 (+4 if larger than opposing creature)
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting; Intimidating Strike (upon an attack, roll an intimidate check (1d20 + Intimidate Mod (16 or 20 if larger) vs. (1d20 + HD + Wisdom Bonus), if successful, -2 to Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, Skill Checks, and Ability Checks for the remainder of encounter; Improved Initiative;
Rage: +2 Str. and Con, -2 AC, 8 rounds
Events: Goblin Warriors jump in if Mzuag is debilitated,or if Mzuag is getting overwhelmed, 1d4 + 2 goblins hop into the fray; at 75% health, Mzuag signals three goblin archers to begin firing upon the party.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On a rough estimate, I'd call that about EL 6 or 7, assuming that d4 +2 goblins comes up average. Note, however, that the barbarian has a -very- high chance of killing one or more party members. The tide of battle could shift -very- abruptly in favor of the enemy if the barbarian takes out the right PC.

Since the barbarian can cause such a quick change in the circumstances and that d4 could come up 4 I'd probably increase that to EL 7 or even 8 with an "easy if handled properly" tag.

Tread with care.

[Pinkcrusade]

Thanks for you input!

[sideswipe]

hard one to judge. since the goblins might never get a chance to enter the battle then it could be two different CR's. the bugbear is CR 6 to me. whereas if the goblins participate it becomes a 7 or 8.

exp is awarded for each individual monster. (the bugbear being CR 6 and the goblins all being CR 1/3) so when giving experience all participating monsters give their own XP not just 1 XP for the overall encounter (pg. 37 DMG).

considering this and that this is the end of an adventure (or at least a chapter) the CR is of little relevance, as long as it is considerably stronger then the party on the whole.

like i said, if the goblins make it to combat the CR increases by about 1-2 in total and only 2 if they have a distinct advantage in the fight. you have on average a CR 7 encounter there.

Note: to optimisers looking to rate this encounter - using huge optimisations warp the CR system. this is a normal level encounter. and therefore receives a normal level CR. if this was a highly optimised campaign this would be closer to a level 3 fight.

[limejuicepowder]

I strongly, strongly recommend against having this fight start with only the boss, and him calling his minions later. Here's why: if he rolls well for initiative, there's a good chance he 1-shots a PC. If he rolls poorly, he might not even get a turn. 75% health? That's him taking 13 damage. That's about 1/2 of a hit from a decently built melee character. Also, 4 stock goblins aren't exactly going to bail him out against level 4 PC's

If you want it to look like he's alone, have the goblins in hiding, and they ambush the PC's as they make their way up/over/down to the boss. Don't let them charge him.

As-is, I don't think there's much chance for this to be a lengthy or entertaining fight.

[Emperor Tippy]

CR 6 maybe.

[Pinkcrusade]

limejuicepowder/rest of posters, what else would you recommend adding to increase the enjoyment of this encounter? I haven't actually DM'd yet (ever), and my goal is to make very enjoyable encounters (which, most DMs strive for, obviously), so any advise for this encounter, or any tips for formulating fun encounters later on would be awesome.


Thanks.

[Emperor Tippy]

What is enjoyable depends almost entirely upon the specific group.

[Pinkcrusade]

When -you- DM, what is your thought process for creating an enjoyable encounter?

[Emperor Tippy]

When -you- DM, what is your thought process for creating an enjoyable encounter?

Me?

Challenges that will generally kill the PC's unless they are on the top of their game.

I have no qualms about shooting PC's with an anti-ship laser on a blimp that is flying 10 kilometers away in Shadowrun. I have no problem using Wish to dump bombs powerful enough to vaporize a Great Wyrm Red Dragon a hundred times over into the PC's stomachs in D&D 3.5. I have no problem with supporting the entire dungeon with air that has been polymorph any objected into stone so that an AMF will cause it to fall on your head. I have no problem with a level 3 Wizard equipping a dozen first level followers with wands of Fell Drain Magic missile and dumping a dozen negative levels onto the party in the first round. I have no problem with having incorporeal enemies sit under the ground and attack the PC's from there.

When I DM you generally play smart, play paranoid, and practice good teamwork or you die pretty much instantly.

That works for my games because the entire group likes to play like that and has no issue with it. I would not hesitate to say though that the vast majority of D&D players would rage quit my games during the first session because they are on their forth PC and are tired of being ruthlessly slaughtered by supposedly easy encounters.

[khachaturian]

terrain could certainly spice things up, but my perspective on the encounter is that it starkly polarizes the difference between parties that use magic effectively and those that do not. this guy is a terrifying bruiser with reach and full attack pounce... but his will save sucks, even with rage.

so a party of regdar, lidda, jozan, and mialee in which jozan prepares healing spells, and mialee is a blaster- they will probably have a pretty tough time, even with an average party level of five.

...but if you throw in a hideous laughter, glitterdust, hold person, or even a grease, the encounter is trivialized even for a third level party

[limejuicepowder]

Personally, I like encounters - especially boss encounters - that last longer than 2 or 3 rounds. One of the easiest ways to do this is 1) lots of weaker enemies, 2) lots of hit points, and 3) no binary-type attacks (insane damage, SoD spells).

For this particular encounter, I would recommend changing the boss from a straight bruiser to a tripper. Instead of getting spirit lion, take whirling frenzy and wolf totem. This changes his rage to boost str, dex, armor, and ref saves, and wolf totem gives free improved trip. Change feats to extend rage and martial study: sudden leap, and combat reflexes. I don't see how he's getting reach, but he'll definitely have it when using a guisarme.

Give him 4 goblin minions, all in hiding. 2 of them were given orders to snipe, but the other 2 are ordered to only shoot at someone who looks like they're about to cast a spell (as soon as their turn in the initiative order comes, they ready an action to fire a bolt/throw a javelin at a caster).

Give the boss some available cover, if he needs it. I don't know what the party looks like, but if they burst in and starting raining hell, he needs to be able to duck behind something. This will force them to get closer, at which point he uses sudden leap to move followed by a full attack, tripping as many as possible.

Tactics: the boss trips and attacks, while the goblins annoy and disrupt casters. There's a lot of ways to beat this encounter, but it should be a difficult one if the PC's don't think and just charge in. The boss will have enough AoO and enough strength to trip anyone who comes close to him, and the goblins should make it annoying for the casters.

Making it harder: boss guzzles a potion of enlarge person when he sees the PC's. This gives him a considerable bonus to his tripping, as well as 20 ft of reach. Put the goblins not only in hiding but up on cliffs, making it difficult for the party to address them.