Knowledge Skills and Why not?

[Grayson01]

Okay why do Dragon SHamans not get Knowledge Nature and Arcana?
A Dragon Shaman is suppopsed to know all about Dragons and whorship them and reaver them, but they can't even Identfy them or tell them apart.
It goes like this
Party Memember: Oh MY GOD Dragon Shaman what the hell is that giant green LIzard looking thing????

Green Dragon Shaman: How the hell am I supposed to know?

Party Memember: It is shooting Acid at us, is it a Dragon?

G (DS): Hell if I know, I don't know anything about dragons

Okay Part two Why do Rangers Not get the Knowledge skill related to thier Favorite Enemy?
this is how it goes, I don't know what this thing is But I hate it and know just how to kill it!!!!

[mistformsquirrl]

... good questions to be honest, as for 'why' ... I don't know. <o.O>

[Kennisiou]

These seem like really, really sensible things to houserule. I better make a note...

[eggynack]

Dragon shamans actually do get knowledge (nature). As for knowledge (arcana), I figure that you don't need to know every little factoid about dragons to think they're hot stuff. I could easily see houseruling that into them though.

[BrokenChord]

Yet another mystery, check out Favored Souls... Still require Wisdom for spell DCs implying that their religious and moral mind still affects the strength of their magic, yet get Knowledge (Arcana) rather than (Religion). I mean, there's an online supplement for switching that around, but still... Seriously?

As for the 'why', mostly because WotC is great at designing systems and terrible at designing classes for said system. They also have an infuriating habit of copy-pasting things and not checking them over for sensibility in their new location, but that's a discussion for another time.

The Rangers at least make *some* sense... Rangers can in fact put point in Knowledges that help them identify and inform about their favored enemy, so if they aren't doing so, it's their fault alone that they don't know anything more than some anatomy tricks for bonuses in combat against what they're fighting. Except that they should also have Arcana and maybe one or two other extra Knowledges as well, but Nature covers the most common favored enemies.

[Grayson01]

Yet another mystery, check out Favored Souls... Still require Wisdom for spell DCs implying that their religious and moral mind still affects the strength of their magic, yet get Knowledge (Arcana) rather than (Religion). I mean, there's an online supplement for switching that around, but still... Seriously?

As for the 'why', mostly because WotC is great at designing systems and terrible at designing classes for said system. They also have an infuriating habit of copy-pasting things and not checking them over for sensibility in their new location, but that's a discussion for another time.

The Rangers at least make *some* sense... Rangers can in fact put point in Knowledges that help them identify and inform about their favored enemy, so if they aren't doing so, it's their fault alone that they don't know anything more than some anatomy tricks for bonuses in combat against what they're fighting. Except that they should also have Arcana and maybe one or two other extra Knowledges as well, but Nature covers the most common favored enemies.

I hear you on the ranger part but they still shoudn't have to waste Skill points on cross class skills for their favored enemy. Once they take a favored Enemy they should gain that Knowledge skill as a class skill.

[Rubik]

I hear you on the ranger part but they still shoudn't have to waste Skill points on cross class skills for their favored enemy. Once they take a favored Enemy they should gain that Knowledge skill as a class skill.That does mean that they'll be really far behind after a few levels. Having to wait until, say, level 15 before you can gain any ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or (Religion) or whatever means you'll be relatively terrible at it, even if you throw every rank you've got in.

[olentu]

I always thought it was rather obvious. Dragon shamans don't know anything about dragons because if they did they would have taken a class that does a better job embodying the might of dragons.

[some guy]

Dragon Shamans get Knowledge (arcane) in the errata for the phb2.

In pf, rangers get their favored enemy bonus on knowledge checks and may make those checks untrained against the favored enemy. Better, but still not good enough.

[eggynack]

Dragon Shamans get Knowledge (arcane) in the errata for the phb2.
Huh. So they do. Well, that solves that problem. The dragon shaman gets all of the thematically suited knowledges, both along the dragon axis, and along the shaman axis. Fancy.

[KingSmitty]

personally, i think at adulthood someone should have at least have one knowledge of something as a class skill..

For instance, middle age is 100 years for Gnomes, if they go 100 years with no knowledge skills, what have they been doing? Picking Flowers? 100 years of picking flowers would still either give you Knowledge: Nature or Knowledge: Flower Picking.

Though, idk what race you are but a Human Dragon Shaman can be as young as 17, not really defending my point, but why you would wanna be a human dragon shaman when there are so many other great races is beyond me.

Perfect thing to house rule though.

[Killer Angel]

personally, i think at adulthood someone should have at least have one knowledge of something as a class skill..

For instance, middle age is 100 years for Gnomes, if they go 100 years with no knowledge skills, what have they been doing? Picking Flowers? 100 years of picking flowers would still either give you Knowledge: Nature or Knowledge: Flower Picking.

That's why the wise PF gnome will pick "Breadth of experience". :smallwink:

[Grayson01]

This is why I must download the Errant for PHB2 lol

[Grayson01]

That does mean that they'll be really far behind after a few levels. Having to wait until, say, level 15 before you can gain any ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or (Religion) or whatever means you'll be relatively terrible at it, even if you throw every rank you've got in.

Which I Understand, but that at least makes sense to me. You picked up the FE later on in life so you are futher behind in that study then your earlier studdies. I can Live with that, however the lack of an option as a class skill still bugs me.

[Chronos]

While we're at it, fighters should have Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) and Knowledge (History) as class skills.

And truenamers should have Spellcraft, Listen, and Speak Language as class skills. Well, there's also a lot more that needs fixed about them, of course.

[Rubik]

While we're at it, fighters should have Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) and Knowledge (History) as class skills.Don't forget Nobility, Dungeoneering, Arcana, Religion, Local, Nature, and The Planes. The first is important for being a knight of the crown (whatever head that crown might sit on), and the rest are important to have knowledge of one's foes.

"I killed it! Huzzah!"

"What'd you kill?"

"It's...got flippers? I have no idea."

"They're hands, and it's a human. YOU'RE a human."

"I knew that!"

"Riiiight..."

[Uncle Pine]

While we're at it, fighters should have Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) and Knowledge (History) as class skills.

Why? They should probably have Listen and Spot as class skills instead.

[Chronos]

Because historically, most of the people who have done what Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering covers have been what we would call fighters. And History is the category that covers battles.

[Uncle Pine]

Because historically, most of the people who have done what Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering covers have been what we would call fighters.


Knowledge (Int; Trained Only)
Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

Below are listed typical fields of study.

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

You sure you're not thinking about Experts?

[Slipperychicken]

For instance, middle age is 100 years for Gnomes, if they go 100 years with no knowledge skills, what have they been doing? Picking Flowers? 100 years of picking flowers would still either give you Knowledge: Nature or Knowledge: Flower Picking.

That's not nearly as bad as Elves, for whom age 110 is equivalent to human age 15. If you extrapolate that out to earlier years (110/15 =7.33 human years per elf year of development), it should mean that elves only get potty-trained around age 22.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You sure you're not thinking about Experts?

I believe its specifically fortifications.

[Spore]

personally, i think at adulthood someone should have at least have one knowledge of something as a class skill..

For instance, middle age is 100 years for Gnomes, if they go 100 years with no knowledge skills, what have they been doing? Picking Flowers? 100 years of picking flowers would still either give you Knowledge: Nature or Knowledge: Flower Picking.

Though, idk what race you are but a Human Dragon Shaman can be as young as 17, not really defending my point, but why you would wanna be a human dragon shaman when there are so many other great races is beyond me.

Perfect thing to house rule though.

He aged 100 years in a single day within a fey pocket dimension. How else would it do it?

[Slipperychicken]

He aged 100 years in a single day within a fey pocket dimension. How else would it do it?

He could've just huffed a bunch of lead paint until he forgot everything he knew.

Also don't gnomes go through seriously intense mid-life crises? I could totally see a gnome looking in the mirror one day and thinking "I've picked flowers for a hundred years and I still don't know a damn thing about them" before going on a feverish study-session at the local library to learn everything he can about flowers.

[Coidzor]

Well, it's not the most accurate in all cases, but saying "glug, glug, glug" and pantomiming drinking from a bottle is probably the most amusing answer I've come across for these sorts of odd decisions where someone was asleep at the tiller.

[Chronos]

In a medieval context, "engineering" mostly means siege engineering.

[Calimehter]

Don't forget Nobility, Dungeoneering, Arcana, Religion, Local, Nature, and The Planes. The first is important for being a knight of the crown (whatever head that crown might sit on), an the rest are important to have knowledge of one's foes.

"I killed it! Huzzah!"

"What'd you kill?"

"It's...got flippers? I have no idea."

"They're hands, and it's a human. YOU'RE a human."

"I knew that!"

"Riiiight..."

Too funny!

You know, everyone here is blaming WotC for this problem . *I* say that we need to be blaming the Rangers for choosing favored enemies that they don't know anything about.

"What's that you killed there, Bob?"

"I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I really hate it!"

:smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

If you ask me, the concept of class skills was just silly. One game I played got rid of it entirely, and it seemed to improve the skill system greatly.



"What's that you killed there, Bob?"

"I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I really hate it!"


That would totally work in a Call of Cthulhu themed game.

[holywhippet]

Too funny!

You know, everyone here is blaming WotC for this problem . *I* say that we need to be blaming the Rangers for choosing favored enemies that they don't know anything about.

"What's that you killed there, Bob?"

"I don't know, but I'm pretty sure I really hate it!"

:smallbiggrin:

Or you could argue it makes sense from a social point of view. If rangers and say kobolds understood each other they'd likely be living together in harmony. Instead rangers just hate them and know how to best kill them off.