Advice: TWF Swordsage build

[Aerilith]

Hi,

I'm working on a Swordsage build, and I'd like some advice/input to help me along.

I come from a background of almost exclusively playing casters, thus the ToB appealed to me much more than a regular melee class ever has.
This leaves me with little knowledge of which feats actually work for various types of builds, and seeing how TWF in general is discouraged, I turn to you guys for aid.


The character will be starting at level 5, I've chosen a human for the extra feat and we're allowed to have one flaw.

My initial thoughts are using daggers and going into Bloodclaw Master, but I'm not sure whether it's worth it?

I've considered Two-weapon fighting, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse and Adaptive style to be some of the important feats during the lower levels.
I'll also be relying on Assassin's stance a lot.


I'd rather not post a specific build so far, as I'm still not completely certain on a few aspects, but how does this sound so far?

Would a warblade be better suited for the task?

If you have any specific build ideas, feat suggestions or dip-levels etc, I'd much appreciate it!



Thank you
~Aerilith

[Socratov]

Well, TWF is not about doing damage With your weapon, it's about using bonus damage: like sneak attack, DFI bonuses, and so forth.

Luckily ToB has a whole school devoted to fighting with two weapons: Tiger Claw. Mix in some Shadow Hand for the Sneak attack and you can bonus damage yourself into oblivion.

A different method could be mixing bard and swordsage (or warblade), picking DFI as your first feat and using White Raven Tactics to swftly DFI up and attack while the buff holds dealing massive bonus damage. You can mix in some Shadowhand for SA and truly become a Lord of the d6.

[HammeredWharf]

The problem with TWF Swordsages and with TWF in general is that it's a feat tax. It works on higher levels rather well, but isn't that great before that. If possible, you could look at other ways to make lots of attacks, such as natural weapons (Totemist!) or unarmed strikes. Early on, Snap Kick is like TWF, but better. You could ask your DM if he's ok with the Unarmed Swordsage variant or Martial Monks.

If you do decide to go down the TWF route, Gloom Razor is an excellent feat that can augment your in-combat stealth capabilities significantly. You could also take Darkstalker while you're at it.

All ToB classes are very multiclassing-friendly, so taking other classes at levels 1 and 2 may be a good idea. Your options include Martial Monk (for bonus feats, good saves, Flurry and Evasion), Fighter (same, but worse, but good BAB and compatible with Barbarian), Barbarian (Pounce!) and Cloistered Cleric (Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, domain powers, maybe some utility spells). As mentioned above, Bard is a good dip, too, but it works better with Crusaders because of Song of the White Raven. DFA also eats up at least one feat.

[Aerilith]

I did consider making a greatsword ToB character instead, simply due to the feat requirements allowing lots more room for personal flavor and preferences.

I think flavor-wise TWF is just pure awesome, but I think it's sad that it's somewhat limited mechanically.

[Darrin]

I did consider making a great sword ToB character instead, simply due to the feat requirements allowing lots more room for personal flavor and preferences.


You can TWF greatsword with armor spikes or unarmed strike. Unarmed strike also works with Power Attack.



I think flavor-wise TWF is just pure awesome, but I think it's sad that it's somewhat limited mechanically.

TWF OffHandbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585)

TWFing with Swordsage is pretty tight on feats. Fighter 2 dip can help.

[HammeredWharf]

The OffHandbook is also a good read in that it showcases how nonsensical 3.5's off-hand / natural weapon / unarmed strike rules are. For example, unarmed attacks are Natural Weapons according to Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm), but are Simple Weapons according to Table: Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons) and aren't listed as one of the most common types of Natural Weapons in the Natural Weapons section (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons), which is under "Special Abilities" and not "Weapons" for some reason. A monk "may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full", but I don't think anything prohibits other characters from doing so. So, uh, it's better to ask your DM about these things, first, if you're going to punch things.

[Aerilith]

That was certainly a great read - it does seem like some of the rules are very ambiguous at times!

I probably won't go all out and abuse all the unarmed/natural attacks, but a Bard/Warblade build sounds like a lot of fun (with the DFI and supporting feats)

[Sam K]

The warblade extra feats might help some with the feat tax for TWF (I dont remember if TWF are viable bonus feats, but they mean you can get some extra melee feats as well as the TWF ones). With the high BAB and twf you can get a good numer of attacks, especially when you mix in some tiger claw boosts at higher levels (2 extra attacks per weapon, maximum of two weapons), as a lvl 8 boost!). Warblade gets you access to white raven and tiger claw (makes for good DFI TWF). Also you get access to punishing stance which should work well with TWF at lower levels.

Ofcourse, as a TWF you are heavily dependant on full attacks, but the bright side is that you can make sure you have atleast one strike that can deal good damage with a standard action. And at higher levels you can pick up pouncing charge and (through martial training) one of the shadow hand teleports. Alternatively, desert wind has some good boosts that gives your initiator level plus some d6 in bonus damage for a round - however, the fact that it's fire damage might put you off.

Dipping rogue and taking craven should also be able to help your damage as well. Moment of the perfect mind should help make up for your fear vulnerability.

[Irk]

I would recommend doing a rogue 3/scout 2 with improved skirmish and swift ambusher for +6d6 precision damage on each attack and then do shadowjumping with Crinti shadow marauder, as it requires fewer prereqs. Battle Bridle allows one of the prereqs to be met with an item and just snag stealthy with flaw. The rest shouldn't be to difficult, just grab TWF and you should be good.

[Metahuman1]

You can TWF greatsword with armor spikes or unarmed strike. Unarmed strike also works with Power Attack.



TWF OffHandbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585)

TWFing with Swordsage is pretty tight on feats. Fighter 2 dip can help.

Where exactly does it stipulate this in the book? I've got a player in my group who wants to TWF and is looking to rebuild her Fighter/Sorcerer into something stronger. But the player that gave her sorcerer Burning Hands and Magic Missile when she asked for help keeps insisting that you can't use a Two handed weapon and fight with armor spikes or unarmed strikes cause the two handed weapons aren't Versatile, where ever the hell he got that terminology from.

[HammeredWharf]

Armor spikes: "You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case."

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm)

[Darrin]

Where exactly does it stipulate this in the book? I've got a player in my group who wants to TWF and is looking to rebuild her Fighter/Sorcerer into something stronger. But the player that gave her sorcerer Burning Hands and Magic Missile when she asked for help keeps insisting that you can't use a Two handed weapon and fight with armor spikes or unarmed strikes cause the two handed weapons aren't Versatile, where ever the hell he got that terminology from.

In addition to what HammeredDwarf said, there's an FAQ entry that explains it in more detail. TWF OffHandbook Section I part 4.d has the entry quoted if you need it.

As for unarmed strikes, I think that's on PHB p. 134. Unarmed strikes can be kicks, headbutts, etc. The monk entry also mentions that monks can still make unarmed strikes when their hands are full, although if you're going to insist that's a monk-only feature, then that's a level of pedantry that I can only applaud for it's audaciousness (but will quietly mock behind your back).

Versatile weaponry sound like a Pathfinder thing...? Can't find a good description online but sounds like it's in the Advanced Player's Guide?