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Mr. Mask
2014-01-20, 09:49 AM
Someone mentioned magic guns and/or gunpowder. And I wondered how they work... Less fouling in the barrels? More velocity from the shot? A more durable barrel which can take stronger gunpowder blasts? Greater accuracy? Exploding bullets (they actually had those during the American Civil war)?

I have some assumptions on how magic swords work. But haven't thought about magic guns.

So I thought, "Hey... this sounds like a fun topic to discuss!"


Magic weapons have a variety of effects in games. What are your assumptions for how and why they, "work"?

BWR
2014-01-20, 09:51 AM
How? Magic
Why? because the designer wants it to work like that.

Here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/combat/firearms.html)'s Pathfinder's take on it.

Grinner
2014-01-20, 10:11 AM
I'd say it depends upon the nature of the enchantment.

Simple +1 to attack and damage rolls? Higher velocity, maybe. Or maybe it aims itself.

Seals an immortal demon? Just say "MAGIC!", and be done with it.

geeky_monkey
2014-01-20, 10:22 AM
They are better because they are magical.

If there was an explanation that wouldn't be magic that would be science.

Segev
2014-01-20, 10:28 AM
+1 weapons are just lighter in the hands of the wielder (while just as heavy to hit), or sharper, or self-adjust to artificially improve the wielder's skill and power in his strikes.

+1 to hit and damage can be achieved by +2 to your Str score, too, so it's quite possible that a magic weapon just improves its overall wieldability.

FreakyCheeseMan
2014-01-20, 11:44 AM
So... if it's straight up +1s, there are all manner of ways that could be achieved.

For more interesting magical bonuses, there are a ton that might be useful - auto-reloading, silenced/no muzzle flash, electrically charged bullets, you name it.

warty goblin
2014-01-20, 12:08 PM
Somehow, at least to me, a magic gun just sounds silly. Gunslinging is pretty far removed from the traditions that brought us magic swords, and I don't think the two fit together all that well. Now that's not to put the kibosh on supernatural firearms. It just takes a different sort of flavor.

"Ol' Tom Hutchins got hisself a lucky rifle. Damn thing hardly never misses when you fix a target in the sights, and won't jam up rain or shine. I seen him drop a grizzly at a hundred fifty yards in one shot, easy as spittin'. Now I donno meself where a man can get a gun like that, but Ol' Tom, he says he was given that piece, mind. Aye, given by a stranger he saved from some unsavory characters out on the road late one night. Only strange thing about that, according to Tom, is that it was rainin' fierce that night, but the stranger didn't leave a single track in the mud, though Tom reckons it was halfway up to his knees. An' halfway up to Tom's knees is halfway to most men's armpits. Now, pass me that bourbon, an' I'll tell you about Billy Freeway, who's got an ammo pouch as always got one bullet left in it."

Mr. Mask
2014-01-20, 12:59 PM
So, SCP-style magic firearms?

warty goblin
2014-01-20, 01:36 PM
So, SCP-style magic firearms?

Nah, tall-tale style magic weapons. Ol' Tom may just have a rifle with a particularly straight barrel that he keeps in good repair. Or maybe he did get it from a stranger who leaves no tracks in exchange for a good deed on a lonely highway late one night, who can be certain? And you've known Tom since you were a boy, savin' a stranger's certainly the kind of thing he'd do. Never known him to tell a lie, 'cept for those fibs he tells Mary Lou, and you ain't his five year old granddaughter.

And when 'Ol Tom gave you his rifle for stealing his daughter Laura's wedding dress - the one her Momma, God rest her soul, bought for her back in New Orleans - from those bandits, well it sure seems to shoot straighter than any gun you've ever fired. And last week that deer you shot, you were sure your hand twitched a bit from the cold, but you still put a bullet straight through its heart...

Sure Billy Freeway swears that ammo pouch he won at seven card stud from the stranger in the heavy coat with the unpleasant accent always has a bullet left in it when he needs, but he's never let anybody else near the damn thing. Though two winters ago you and he spent a lot of time hunting together, after his place burned down and he still owed the bank all that money, and Sarah his wife pregnant and all. Can't say you ever saw him run out of bullets, or buy any neither.

TheCountAlucard
2014-01-20, 04:34 PM
Personally, I like Exalted's take on "magic weapons."

Namely, there are no generically "magical" weapons; you can indeed enchant an iron sword to be indestructible, or super-light, but neither of these things will make it inherently more accurate or damaging.

On the other hand, there are daiklaves; where a mortal sword may do nothing to damage the diamond-hard skin of an attacking war-god, a daiklave is a massive sword constructed of sterner stuff, forged from heavy molten sun-gold or moonsilver or soulsteel, and designed to be feather-light in the hands of its wielder.

A daiklave is more damaging, because it's on par with swinging around a sharpened, indestructible bulldozer blade.

AMFV
2014-01-20, 04:39 PM
Someone mentioned magic guns and/or gunpowder. And I wondered how they work... Less fouling in the barrels? More velocity from the shot? A more durable barrel which can take stronger gunpowder blasts? Greater accuracy? Exploding bullets (they actually had those during the American Civil war)?

I have some assumptions on how magic swords work. But haven't thought about magic guns.

So I thought, "Hey... this sounds like a fun topic to discuss!"


Magic weapons have a variety of effects in games. What are your assumptions for how and why they, "work"?

Well it would depend on what stage firearms we're discussing, to improve the accuracy of the weapon there are actually many many more ways to accomplish this with a magic firearm over a magic sword, auto-correcting sights (for windage), removing the recoil of the weapon, a weapon that moves counter to breath, those things would vastly improve the accuracy of a weapon, making it into basically a point and shoot type thing, then you need no more deadliness that the weapon would have inherently since now you can hit virtually 100% of the time if you can see the target.


Somehow, at least to me, a magic gun just sounds silly. Gunslinging is pretty far removed from the traditions that brought us magic swords, and I don't think the two fit together all that well. Now that's not to put the kibosh on supernatural firearms. It just takes a different sort of flavor.

"Ol' Tom Hutchins got hisself a lucky rifle. Damn thing hardly never misses when you fix a target in the sights, and won't jam up rain or shine. I seen him drop a grizzly at a hundred fifty yards in one shot, easy as spittin'. Now I donno meself where a man can get a gun like that, but Ol' Tom, he says he was given that piece, mind. Aye, given by a stranger he saved from some unsavory characters out on the road late one night. Only strange thing about that, according to Tom, is that it was rainin' fierce that night, but the stranger didn't leave a single track in the mud, though Tom reckons it was halfway up to his knees. An' halfway up to Tom's knees is halfway to most men's armpits. Now, pass me that bourbon, an' I'll tell you about Billy Freeway, who's got an ammo pouch as always got one bullet left in it."

Well the traditions are certainly there, there were many weapons that are similar to the old medieval rifles particularly if one looks at the old west culture.


Personally, I like Exalted's take on "magic weapons."

Namely, there are no generically "magical" weapons; you can indeed enchant an iron sword to be indestructible, or super-light, but neither of these things will make it inherently more accurate or damaging.

On the other hand, there are daiklaves; where a mortal sword may do nothing to damage the diamond-hard skin of an attacking war-god, a daiklave is a massive sword constructed of sterner stuff, forged from heavy molten sun-gold or moonsilver or soulsteel, and designed to be feather-light in the hands of its wielder.

A daiklave is more damaging, because it's on par with swinging around a sharpened, indestructible bulldozer blade.

The problem is that you could theoretically enchant a gun to be more accurate and damaging, fairly easily by simply messing with it's physical properties a little, guns are damned effective and are easy to improve on with most systems magical stuff.

Edit: As far as game rules goes, though, very few systems use breath control, or anticipating the recoil, or wind as significant factors (and they'd be unusually clunky, I don't see this being easy to implement.

Urpriest
2014-01-20, 05:45 PM
A "+1 sword" makes you better at hitting and dealing damage with it in all situations. If you've got an explanation for that, you've probably got an explanation for a "+1 gun".

Knaight
2014-01-20, 06:20 PM
I have some assumptions on how magic swords work. But haven't thought about magic guns.

So I thought, "Hey... this sounds like a fun topic to discuss!"

Magic weapons have a variety of effects in games. What are your assumptions for how and why they, "work"?

It depends on what they do. Generally though, I favor some sort of self-sharpening, self repairing deal. There's a particular form that the magic item is crafted so that it should be, and it alters itself to fit it. It grows metal to repair scratches, grows wood to repair gouges in the haft, it keeps the edge thin, etc. It also allows for metallurgy which would normally have fragility issues because of magical reinforcement - such as a thin layer of tungsten where you need hardness.

Erik Vale
2014-01-20, 06:25 PM
Nah, tall-tale style magic weapons. Ol' Tom may just have a rifle with a particularly straight barrel that he keeps in good repair. Or maybe he did get it from a stranger who leaves no tracks in exchange for a good deed on a lonely highway late one night, who can be certain? And you've known Tom since you were a boy, savin' a stranger's certainly the kind of thing he'd do. Never known him to tell a lie, 'cept for those fibs he tells Mary Lou, and you ain't his five year old granddaughter.

And when 'Ol Tom gave you his rifle for stealing his daughter Laura's wedding dress - the one her Momma, God rest her soul, bought for her back in New Orleans - from those bandits, well it sure seems to shoot straighter than any gun you've ever fired. And last week that deer you shot, you were sure your hand twitched a bit from the cold, but you still put a bullet straight through its heart...

Sure Billy Freeway swears that ammo pouch he won at seven card stud from the stranger in the heavy coat with the unpleasant accent always has a bullet left in it when he needs, but he's never let anybody else near the damn thing. Though two winters ago you and he spent a lot of time hunting together, after his place burned down and he still owed the bank all that money, and Sarah his wife pregnant and all. Can't say you ever saw him run out of bullets, or buy any neither.

You know, it's stuff like this that makes me want to play low level low magic games.

But yes, combining Science and Magic makes it no-longer magic. Magitech is the term for it, and any culture with good magitech has good wizards, good wizards don't want people to have good guns, it makes it easier for someone to line up groups of commoners to take pot shots at them when someone gets annoyed at him.

But explanation, I often leave gun-wielding to the users skill, I say magic guides the bullet instead, curving it in ways it really shouldn't curve.

GolemsVoice
2014-01-20, 06:55 PM
You've got to have just the right bullets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxMva9iPv0w)

Erberor
2014-01-20, 09:51 PM
A magic rifle is just as possible as a magic bow. The +X enhancement bonus could mean anything from a weapon being flat out sharper (enhancing both ability to do damage and the ability to cut through defences), to swinging ever so slightly faster (extra speed translates to extra force, piercing through defences and hit points), to self aiming, to releasing a slight discharge of energy upon impact.

And on another note, if you were to ever discount magic as unscientific in front of a wizard, you would probably get a response somewhere along the lines of this:

"Could you really be so simple minded as to be ignorant of the nature of magic? Magic is no less science than alchemy or mechanics. It is the greatest of sciences, rich in nigh infinite complexities that contain secrets that cause lesser minds to crumble under the weight of knowledge! Just because of its unspeakably complex and intricate nature does not mean that it is beyond the realm of understanding!"

Knaight
2014-01-20, 11:14 PM
A magic rifle is just as possible as a magic bow. The +X enhancement bonus could mean anything from a weapon being flat out sharper (enhancing both ability to do damage and the ability to cut through defences), to swinging ever so slightly faster (extra speed translates to extra force, piercing through defences and hit points), to self aiming, to releasing a slight discharge of energy upon impact.

You may notice that we're not in the 3.x thread. This means that the assumption of a +x enhancement bonus is almost certainly wrong (most games don't use it). It also means that there is no guarantee that a magic rifle is anywhere near as possible, depending on how magic works and what it does.

Similarly, the degree to which it is scientific or even a studied art at all varies highly by setting.

kieza
2014-01-21, 02:50 AM
Well, magic firearms in my setting work just like magic bows and crossbows. Whenever a projectile travels down the barrel, the weapon places a short-lived enchantment on the projectile. Your basic +1 weapon simply adds an additional magical force in addition to the force of the gunpowder, causing the bullet to have higher muzzle velocity and constraining its trajectory to be closer to the line of the barrel. A flaming weapon encases the projectile in a shell of flames, a shocking weapon causes lightning to follow in the bullet's wake, etc. A seeking weapon works like a target designator--the weapon sights register what the user aims them at, and the enchantment on the bullet causes it to veer towards that if it moves.

Melee weapon enchantments work much the same way; a +1 sword accelerates itself in the direction it's moving; a flaming sword is encased in fire; a vorpal sword can recognize necks and aim itself at them.

DarkKensai
2014-01-21, 03:17 AM
And on another note, if you were to ever discount magic as unscientific in front of a wizard, you would probably get a response somewhere along the lines of this:

"Could you really be so simple minded as to be ignorant of the nature of magic? Magic is no less science than alchemy or mechanics. It is the greatest of sciences, rich in nigh infinite complexities that contain secrets that cause lesser minds to crumble under the weight of knowledge! Just because of its unspeakably complex and intricate nature does not mean that it is beyond the realm of understanding!"

That is how I think of it too. Magic can be very scientific without being based on actual science.

Even though it's usually more common in sci-fi, I always liked the idea that a melee enchantment that boosts damage works like a vibro-blade; magically imbuing the blade with excess energy that it dumps into the target on impact.

DigoDragon
2014-01-21, 08:54 AM
I remember an urban fantasy adventure where one of us got a hold of a magic laser rifle that did cold damage. We came up with the idea that the particles in the beam were stripping energy off the atoms as it passed through them.

GungHo
2014-01-21, 11:30 AM
Somehow, at least to me, a magic gun just sounds silly. Gunslinging is pretty far removed from the traditions that brought us magic swords, and I don't think the two fit together all that well. Now that's not to put the kibosh on supernatural firearms. It just takes a different sort of flavor.

"Ol' Tom Hutchins got hisself a lucky rifle. Damn thing hardly never misses when you fix a target in the sights, and won't jam up rain or shine. I seen him drop a grizzly at a hundred fifty yards in one shot, easy as spittin'. Now I donno meself where a man can get a gun like that, but Ol' Tom, he says he was given that piece, mind. Aye, given by a stranger he saved from some unsavory characters out on the road late one night. Only strange thing about that, according to Tom, is that it was rainin' fierce that night, but the stranger didn't leave a single track in the mud, though Tom reckons it was halfway up to his knees. An' halfway up to Tom's knees is halfway to most men's armpits. Now, pass me that bourbon, an' I'll tell you about Billy Freeway, who's got an ammo pouch as always got one bullet left in it."

I also enjoy the stories behind Roland Deschain's sandalwood revolvers (http://darktower.wikia.com/wiki/Sandalwood_Guns) and The Colt (http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=The_Colt) of Supernatural.

But then again, I also don't like just handing out Longsword +1s to people, either and like giving everything a name and a history. I don't see why a magic flintlock, magic revolver or even a magic M2 Browning wouldn't also have a name and history. Let's invent an M2 Browning +3, the Cobra King's Fang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._37th_Armor_Regiment#Battle_of_the_Bulge), mounted on the lead tank of the 37th Armor Regiment, Company C, that broke the line during the Battle of the Bulge to relieve the 101st Airborne, ensorceled by bitter cold met with the hot blood of heroes.

Frozen_Feet
2014-01-21, 05:45 PM
You've got to have just the right bullets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxMva9iPv0w)

The Devil The Black Huntsman is happy to deliver in that regard. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye7LlWoOxlU)

Basically, the most legendary type of firearms and bullets tend to be those that never miss... or rather, always hit a target specified by the Devil their maker.

The next best example is those bullets that always kill, a la Saint of Killers in Preacher. Either they always hit a lethal spot, or the tiniest graze makes a man lose their life.

Exploding bullets are also nice. No, not the ordinary kind, silly, the kind which cause battle-field engulfing fireballs when they hit their target!

Silver bullets to kill various supernatural creepy-crawlies are also a classic. You can extrapolate from this to other mythological substances and special resistances.

Calen
2014-01-21, 07:16 PM
Personally I tend to treat a lot of magic enchants as just something mundane that is made extra well. +1 swords, vicious daggers whatever. It is just a cultural weapon style or better materials that make the weapon better. It's not that hard to extend that to a gun. Look at Davy Crockets "Old Betsy" thats clearly a +1 weapon at least :smalltongue:

Also this thread is making me really want to play a Alloy of Law (http://brandonsanderson.com/books/mistborn/the-alloy-of-law/) themed game right now.

Rakaydos
2014-01-21, 07:28 PM
I feel that "Self reset enchantment trap" magic projectile weapons (be it bows or guns) should have an enchantment "ammo" limit in addition to the mundane ammo they launch. Barring 3.5 wish loops and resetting spell traps, you shouldnt be able to get something for nothing, even with magic.

For melee weapons, I have a freeform character who can superheat her blade while maintaining it's strength, but if she doesnt turn it off before she runs out of power, the integrety spell will wear off before the heat disperces, and it explodes into superheated metallic vapor.