Rebuild the Second! *Could use some help.*

[Metahuman1]

Spoiler for fairly long somewhat rambleish introduction.

So, long story short, I've got a game going were the party is coming up on a rebuild in the near future.

One of the players wants a Gish build that "uses magic to buff herself up and fight better. Make her(the character, though the player is also female.) defenses stronger and stuff like that."


Another player tried and failed to do this with Sorcerer 2 Fighter 2 with things like Magic Missile and Burning Hands on the Sorcerer's Spell List cause "That's what Sorcerer's due." according to him (the other player that tried and failed to help the player that want's a gish.) I'd have said something at the time if I'd known but it was too late when it came to my attention.


But that's in the pasty, party just hit 5th level and in another session or two we get to do rebuilds to correct things were not happy about.


So, help me build a gish for this player that does what she wants. She's using a home brew LA 0 version of the Gargoyle race that has no real ability's of special note. At best I'd say it's no worse then a human, and that's up for debate, but she's not gonna change it. Other things of note is that she seems to like TWF, I'm gonna try and steer her toward using a two handed weapon and an unarmed strike instead of her current double bladed sword strategy, but the other guy who gave her the sorcerer spell advise is determined to insist that RAW that doesn't work. If someone can cite were it does work RAW, that would help to shut him up and get him out of the way.

Last two items of note:

Player not interested in a Sorcadin build or Divine spell casting, she doesn't want to do the "Holy" angle.

And lastly, classes I've looked at for her are Warblade form Tome of Battle, which I can get access too for her since more then one person in the group has a copy, Wu-gen from Complete Arcane, same as Tome of Battle for access, and the following PrC's. Swiftblade, Abjurant Champion, and Jade Phoenix Mage. I'm just not sure where to go with feats and specific spells/maneuvers to advise for these combo's, and what a break down of class/prestige class levels should look like and that's where I really need the help most, figuring that part out. I'd particularly like to get her 9's for maneuvers and spells in this build if possible, but if not, I'll settle for 9's on maneuvers and 7th's on spells so she can get Giant Sized on the Wu-Gen spell list. Sooner she get's that the better cause I mentioned that spell to her and she thinks that just sounds wicked.

[Xerlith]

First: It's Wu-Jen. :smallbiggrin:

A quick rundown:
Wu-Jen4/Crusader1/Wu Jen+1/JPM X/Z Y

Does what you want - 3BAB at 5th level means it's on par with the Cleric and other mid-BAB classes, has 2nd level maneuvers. If she's really into 2WFing, instead of Crusader go Warblade for Tiger Claw maneuvers.
You may want to let her pick Tiger Claw through her JPM levels (I am assuming you're the DM) for it to actually work, though. If finished up with 4 levels of Abjurant Champion, the build gains 9th level spells and 8th level maneuvers.

Wu Jen5/Crus1/JPM10/AbjChamp1/Crus+3 actually gains 9th level maneuvers though. And 7th level spells.

How dwarf-like is the homebrewed race? If you (Or the dm, if it's not you) allow it, the entry would be better as wu-jen4/initiator1/runesmith1/JPM X.

Seriously, there's not much philosophy in building a quick-casting progression build such specific.

The maneuver choice depends on what kind of fighting style the player chooses.

And here's the relevant bit of rules - note that nowhere in the rules is stated explicitly what the "off-hand" is. Also, letting go of your weapon with one hand and then grabbing it again are both free actions -that's why spellsword characters don't 2wf with two separate weapons.
Why take Somatic Weaponry if you can simply have a 2hander/double weapon.

[Petrocorus]

The classic Sorcadin build is pretty solid.
Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abj. Champ. 5 / Full Casting PrC 8.

As long as you don't mess up the spell selection.
You can also look in my sig the list of paladin build i compiled.

[Metahuman1]

Um, regrettably, player doesn't want the holy/divine warrior angle. Which is sad cause I could use Ur-Priest, PrC Paladin, and Ruby Knight Vindicator to build her a hellacious gish if she did.

[Petrocorus]

Oups, misread your post. Thought she was interested in a Sorcadin with less emphasis on the holy side.

Then maybe:
Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1./ Abj. Champ. 4/ Swiftblade 9
No 9th level casting, but that fit the fluff.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, sorry, I mean, I like em, but she wants strictly magic and muscle/skill at arms. No gods, righteous fury or other such.

[Petrocorus]

Can also do Wizard 5 / Swiftblade 9 / Dragonslayer 1 / Abj. Champ. 5

9th level casting and swiftblade goodie, but you need to get a martial weapon proficiency through race or feat for entering Swiftblade.

You can also show her the mandatory handbooks:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321715

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786

[Metahuman1]

Honestly, at this point, I'm thinking of asking the DM to throw her a couple of bones just doing Wizard 3/ Warblade 2/ Swiftblade 10/ Jade Phoenix Mage 5.

[Darrin]

Other things of note is that she seems to like TWF, I'm gonna try and steer her toward using a two handed weapon and an unarmed strike instead of her current double bladed sword strategy, but the other guy who gave her the sorcerer spell advise is determined to insist that RAW that doesn't work. If someone can cite were it does work RAW, that would help to shut him up and get him out of the way.


The FAQ isn't RAW, but this should shut him up:



Just how and when can you use armor spikes? If you’re using two weapons already, can you use armor spikes to make a second off-hand attack? What if you’re using a weapon and a shield? Can you use the armor spikes for an off-hand attack and still get a shield bonus to Armor Class from the shield? What if you use a two-handed weapon? Can you wield the weapon in two hands and still make an off-hand attack with the spikes? What are your options for using armor spikes in a grapple? Can you use them when pinned? If you have another light weapon, can you use that and your armor spikes when grappling?

When you fight with more than one weapon, you gain an extra attack. (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and greater Two-Weapon Fighting give you more attacks with the extra weapon.) Armor spikes are a light weapon that can be used as the extra weapon.

If you attack only with your armor spikes during your turn (or use the armor spikes to make an attack of opportunity), you use them just like a regular weapon. If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon, even if you’re using a shield or using a two-handed weapon. In these latter two cases, you’re assumed to be kicking or kneeing your foe with your armor spikes.


(emphasis added)

For Warblade gishes, I'm partial to bards, as you can take up to three non-spellcaster levels before ECL 10, dip into Sublime Chord, and finish off with 9th level Sorcerer spells.

Warblade 2/Bard 4/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9.
(You can throw Spellsword 1 in there if you need the -10% ASF.)
Feats:
1st) TWF
3rd) Combat Casting
6th) Sudden Extend or Improved Unarmed Strike
9th) Arcane Strike
12th) Minor Shapeshift
15th) Improved TWF
18th) Greater TWF

I consider Snowflake Wardance to be a trap (TWF needs damage bonuses, not attack bonuses).

If she might prefer sorcerer over bard...

Warblade 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Something 8*

* = This is hard to finish off if she doesn't want to go Sacred Exorcist 8. Battle Sorcerer gives you a slightly higher BAB, so you could take out a level of Warblade and put in Eldritch Knight 9 if need be, but you lose spell slots and spells known.

[Metahuman1]

The FAQ isn't RAW, but this should shut him up:



(emphasis added)

For Warblade gishes, I'm partial to bards, as you can take up to three non-spellcaster levels before ECL 10, dip into Sublime Chord, and finish off with 9th level Sorcerer spells.

Warblade 2/Bard 4/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9.
(You can throw Spellsword 1 in there if you need the -10% ASF.)
Feats:
1st) TWF
3rd) Combat Casting
6th) Sudden Extend or Improved Unarmed Strike
9th) Arcane Strike
12th) Minor Shapeshift
15th) Improved TWF
18th) Greater TWF

I consider Snowflake Wardance to be a trap (TWF needs damage bonuses, not attack bonuses).

If she might prefer sorcerer over bard...

Warblade 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Something 8*

* = This is hard to finish off if she doesn't want to go Sacred Exorcist 8. Battle Sorcerer gives you a slightly higher BAB, so you could take out a level of Warblade and put in Eldritch Knight 9 if need be, but you lose spell slots and spells known.

Thank you, that is hopefully exactly what I'll need to if not shut him up get the DM to shut him up for me.

Now, I'm curious as to what you'd recommend for spells known on that first build? It defiantly has my attention. I'd also like your advise on what to do if I give her flaws by way of suggested feats?

[Petrocorus]

Warblade 2/Bard 4/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/Jade Phoenix Mage +9.
(You can throw Spellsword 1 in there if you need the -10% ASF.)
Feats:
1st) TWF
3rd) Combat Casting
6th) Sudden Extend or Improved Unarmed Strike
9th) Arcane Strike
12th) Minor Shapeshift
15th) Improved TWF
18th) Greater TWF

If she might prefer sorcerer over bard...

Warblade 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Something 8*

* = This is hard to finish off if she doesn't want to go Sacred Exorcist 8. Battle Sorcerer gives you a slightly higher BAB, so you could take out a level of Warblade and put in Eldritch Knight 9 if need be, but you lose spell slots and spells known.

Nice bard build.
For the second one, Warblade cannot qualify you for Spellsword, not enough proficiencies.

Concerning the "something 8", Master Harper (M'sE), Harper Paragon (PGtF), Heartwarder (F&P), Master of Yuirwood (UE), SwordDancer (F&P), Unseen Seer (CM) are all mid BAB and Full casting PrC. But have all quite tough entry requirement.

Raumathari Battlemage (UE), Evereskan Tomb Guardian (PGtF) and Ruathar (RotW) are shorter PrC with full casting and mid BAB with also tough requirement (except ruathar). But combine 1 lvl dip in Dragonslayer and two of them can do the trick. Entry requirement will be a headache however.

Another possibility is to use Sha'Ir instead of Sorcerer and finish off with Geomancer or Windwalker or Seeker of the Misty Isle or another full casting mid BAB divine PrC.

[Darrin]

Now, I'm curious as to what you'd recommend for spells known on that first build?


1st:

Silent Image (Core). Create a wall/pit/lava/spikes/creature/etc.

Instant Diversion (Races of the Dragon). Lesser version of mirror image. Starts with only one image, but that's still a 50% miss chance for 1 attack as a swift action.

Instant of Power (Forge of War). Possibly my favorite spell in 3.x. As an immediate action, +4 enhancement bonus to any attack, save, or damage roll. Close range, so you can use it on other PCs. Great way to make sure someone makes a save or crank up the damage after confirming a crit. Get this as a wand (750 GP) and carry it in a wand chamber (100 GP, Dungeonscape) at all times.

Invisibility, Swift (Spell Compendium). Unlike vanilla invisibility, this can be cast *after* you attack, another good way to get a 50% miss chance for a round. This is another good spell to have in a wand chamber, but the minimum CL 2 means the wand will cost 1500 GP instead of 750 GP.

2nd:

Alter Self (Core). Good for self-buffing, and a good target for Sudden Extend. You mentioned her race was gargoyle, so monstrous humanoids may be available? Several flyer options there, but Dune Hag (Sandstorm) may be best for defense: large size, natural armor +8.

Glitterdust (Core). One of the best debuffs in the game, counters concealment/invisibility/hiding, and a great table-setting spell for obscuring mist/fog cloud.

Cloud of Bewilderment (Spell Compendium). A 2nd-level version of stinking cloud, great save-or-lose spell.

Ice Darts (Frostburn). Bards shouldn't be blasting, but it's nice to have at least one blasty-spell, and this is a good "multiple targets" spell.

Sonic Weapon (Spell Compendium). For buffing up your weapon damage. Ideally, you want to cast this into a Glyph Seal (1000 GP, MIC) before combat and key it to drawing the weapon or striking an enemy, so you don't have to waste a standard action to cast the spell.

3rd:

Haste (Core). Yes, everybody takes this. And for darned good reasons.

Dispel Magic (Core). See previous spell.

Glibness (Core). Swiss-army chainsaw for social engineering stuff.

Sonic Shield (PHBII). Defense, offense, and battlefield control all in the same spell. Wish it lasted longer, though.



It defiantly has my attention. I'd also like your advise on what to do if I give her flaws by way of suggested feats?

Dragontouched + Dragonfire Inspiration. Yeah, there aren't a lot of bard levels there for Inspire Courage, but +1d6 fire damage for the entire party is still a pretty darned decent buff. Inspirational boost can make that +2d6, and Badge of Valor (1400 GP, MIC) can make it +3d6.

[Petrocorus]

Dragontouched + Dragonfire Inspiration. Yeah, there aren't a lot of bard levels there for Inspire Courage, but +1d6 fire damage for the entire party is still a pretty darned decent buff. Inspirational boost can make that +2d6, and Badge of Valor (1400 GP, MIC) can make it +3d6.

Get Dragonborn, Draconic (if LA buy-off allowed), or a draconic sub-race of Dragon Magic, and you don't even need Dragontouched.

[Metahuman1]

And that would free up a feat for improved unarmed strike, which would open up having that right out the starting gate and Sudden Extend.

[Darrin]

Get Dragonborn, Draconic (if LA buy-off allowed), or a draconic sub-race of Dragon Magic, and you don't even need Dragontouched.

OP said race was already settled on something gargoylish, and I wasn't sure what would be stripped out if Dragonborn was added. Dragontouched is also useful if you want to take Draconic Heritage to switch the energy damage to something other than [fire], such as [sonic].

If Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration keeps getting in the way of spellcasting (particularly with swift-action verbal spells), then Melodic Casting may be worth picking up.