Durkon is not the vampire!

[Kornaki]

In comic 21

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html

Belkar splats Trigak onto the ground, and we don't see Durkon again in that scene. The next time we see him

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html

he has "mysteriously" gained a penalty to his move silently check, a penalty which did not affect them previously when sneaking up on the goblins here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html.

In comic 21 Trigak's return was also heavily foreshadowed. The only explanation is that after the Order walked off, Trigak polymorphed into the shape of Durkon, who was crushed under his immense barely alive body. Trigak has been adventuring with the Order ever since. This theory is reinforced by the Order losing track of their members often, for example Durkon after the fight over the Amulet of Dorukan, or Haley during their fight with the BBQ lizards. They easily could have missed Durkon being crushed under Trigak, and then Trigak could have rejoined them in polymorphed form at any time after that.

This theory is then proven later in the comic. In strip number 743

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html

upon seeing Durkon Tarquin declares "the more the merrier, I say". We know that Tarquin perpetually wears a ring of True Seeing, so would see Trigak's true form and know that he is being joined by not one, but three guests, hence his saying that.

In the very next panel he then refers to Durkon as "the dwarf", not as Durkon, even though he knows Durkon's name. This would be unusual if Tarquin had no reason to believe he needed to emphasize the race of said dwarf, but if he is attempting to help Trigak stay undercover (as it would be impolite to spoil the illusory cover of a dinner guest) then it would make sense that Tarquin reinforces the fake race that Trigak is hiding under.

Therefore, Malack did not vampirize the dwarf that we know as Durkon, as that dwarf died 900 strips ago. Instead the vampire that we see is the polymorphed vampirized Trigak, who will be exacting his vengeance upon the Order at exactly the worst time.

[thereaper]

I kind of like this idea, simply because it would mean the return of Trigak.

[137beth]

This is the best idea ever:smallbiggrin:

But wait, does that mean that Trigak was trying to seduce Hilgya? Or that Trigak was able to gain Thor's favor here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html)?

Actually, does that mean that Trigak was able to trick Thor into thinking he is a dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)? Or *gasp* is Thor in on the switch?!?

[Trillium]

To be honest, in the strips where Durkon communes with Thor, Durkon himself is the "narrator". As such, we may only know what Durkon wants us to know.
I fully support the theory that Durkon is Trigak. A vampiric polymorphing chimaera. How about that, huh?

[Socksy]

And he wrote out Durkon's accent because it was his best guess at what Dwarven looked like on paper!

[Kornaki]

And he wrote out Durkon's accent because it was his best guess at what Dwarven looked like on paper!

Excellent! I missed this subtle observation but it is obvious that the real Durkon wouldn't have written the letter like that.

Further evidence is Trigak's willingness to let the Order rot in jail both in Azure city and in the Empire of Blood, and his literal glee at Roy's death in the Azure City battle. Trigak has learned that he cannot take the Order on by himself, but instead needs to position the Order to be taken out by other more powerful entities.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html

[137beth]

And he wrote out Durkon's accent because it was his best guess at what Dwarven looked like on paper!

Yea, Roy can't read Dwarven! Why would the real Durkon have written it in Common?

Even more obvious, why was "Durkon" willing to ignore his "friend" V's trouble when V was polymorphed into a lizard? Surely the real Durkon would have Broken the Enchantment as soon as possible. Trigak must have been hoping the order would be killed by the dragon, so that he could resume his normal form.

[Ghost Nappa]

It's a nice theory, but it's just as unlikely because all of the characterization that we have for Durkon post-Trigak has been faked. Additionally, don't forget that Roy was travelling with Durkon for 2 years (per OtOoPCs) before #0001 and that Durkon still has an accent.


Now, also note that during the strips where we see Trigak, Durkon does not speak meaning that Trigak should not necessarily be aware of Durkon's accent.

Also note the comic where Xykon is disappointed in Trigak's failings as a discount mercenary. I would think that Epic-level Sorcerer would comment if one of his goons had successfully infiltrated the Order and not tell his number two "They failed, might as well send out the rest."

[Eulalios]

Tis both implausible ... and a simply beautiful possible follow up to the last three panels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html).

[137beth]

It's a nice theory, but it's just as unlikely because all of the characterization that we have for Durkon post-Trigak has been faked. Additionally, don't forget that Roy was travelling with Durkon for 2 years (per OtOoPCs) before #0001 and that Durkon still has an accent.


Now, also note that during the strips where we see Trigak, Durkon does not speak meaning that Trigak should not necessarily be aware of Durkon's accent.
Trigak heard Durkon speak from scrying on the order before attacking them, obviously.

Also note the comic where Xykon is disappointed in Trigak's failings as a discount mercenary. I would think that Epic-level Sorcerer would comment if one of his goons had successfully infiltrated the Order and not tell his number two "They failed, might as well send out the rest."
Xykon doesn't want to reveal Trigak's deception to the readers, for the same reason he wants to conceal the MitD from us. And he is aware of cutaway scenes, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) so he certainly isn't going to say it on-panel!

[thereaper]

Yea, Roy can't read Dwarven!

Not to burst your bubble, but we don't actually know that. Roy has at least one bonus language, and I don't believe we know what it is. It may very well be Dwarven.

[Keltest]

Tis both implausible ... and a simply beautiful possible follow up to the last three panels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html).

Woah, Belkar even foreshadows it!

[Alex Star]

Lest we forget this gem...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html

Keep in mind... an excuse is given, but he's never "rechecked"

[Keltest]

Lest we forget this gem...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html

Keep in mind... an excuse is given, but he's never "rechecked"



Well, she CLAIMS when she scanned him he was "good". But there are things that can trick that, and anyone who really wanted to disguise themselves could get their hands on one because of the rule of Plot.

[roko10]

This theory requires that Trigak took 15 levels in Cleric.

So.... yeah. Jossed hard.

Please don't kill me....

[ImperatorV]

Wouldn't the polymorph spell have ended when he was thrown into the anti-magic cells in Azure City?

[mikeejimbo]

Clearly, Trigak already had Cleric levels and that's why he chose Durkon to replace. Incidentally that's why he didn't recognize the significance of Hilgya Rebuking Fire creatures, since he wasn't familiar with Northern Gods. He obviously put some rsnks into it somewhere along the way, or just made up all the stuff about Hel.


Did they put Durkon into an AMF? I thought that his cooperation with the authorities gave him better treatment.

[The Grim Author]

Did they put Durkon into an AMF? I thought that his cooperation with the authorities gave him better treatment.

Only on the trip over. He was locked in the Anti-Magic Cell Block alongside Roy, Elan, Haley, and V.

[Faramir]

It also explains why he wasn't upset when he learned that Durkon would be dead when returned to his homeland. Though Trigak came up with a good cover story on the spur of the moment.

[thereaper]

Only on the trip over. He was locked in the Anti-Magic Cell Block alongside Roy, Elan, Haley, and V.

Clearly, then, someone had hit it with a mage's disjunction that day.

Trigak has co-conspirators!

[ImperatorV]

Clearly, then, someone had hit it with a mage's disjunction that day.

Trigak has co-conspirators!

Wait! Look here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html

Trigak-disguised-as-Durkon approved of the actions V took while under the effects of the soul-splice, he's in league with the IFCC!

[Socksy]

In league with Xykon and the IFCC? No wonder he was such a powerful character, to be able to disguise himself as Durkon for so long!

Perhaps the IFCC's non interference clause with the gods is why he didn't have enough ranks in K. Religion...

[mikeejimbo]

Wait, it's coming together now. He's working with the IFCC and part of that mission involved infiltrating Xykon's organization. Then either Xykon had him infiltrate the Order, which also served the IFCC so he took it, becoming a triple agent, OR the IFCC thought he'd be more useful infiltrating the Order so he faked his death to get out of Xykon's service.

[Lettuce]

Wait, it's coming together now. He's working with the IFCC and part of that mission involved infiltrating Xykon's organization. Then either Xykon had him infiltrate the Order, which also served the IFCC so he took it, becoming a triple agent, OR the IFCC thought he'd be more useful infiltrating the Order so he faked his death to get out of Xykon's service.

I feel like the second option, that he faked his death to get out of Xykon's service, is the more probable of the two. Xykon can't even be bothered to remember Roy's name; I can't imagine he's care about infiltrating them.

[mikeejimbo]

I feel like the second option, that he faked his death to get out of Xykon's service, is the more probable of the two. Xykon can't even be bothered to remember Roy's name; I can't imagine he's care about infiltrating them.

Yeah, I'm actually leaning that way myself, because it fits better with Xykon's reaction to Trigak's death ("cut rate mercenaries"). I know we went over the fact that he's aware of cutaway panels, but I still think his reaction would have been different. Plus it's less information he has to be reticent about and he has enough of that.

Unless he had more of it, and the whole not remembering Roy thing is a ruse. But that would pretty much have to mean his whole personality is faked, and that would seem cheap.

[Keltest]

I feel like the second option, that he faked his death to get out of Xykon's service, is the more probable of the two. Xykon can't even be bothered to remember Roy's name; I can't imagine he's care about infiltrating them.

didn't he do that with the goblin teen though? well, as much as could be done with that anyway.

[Lucentile]

The fact that True Seeing beats Polymorph always annoys me, because I think that Polymorph is actually changing a creature's shape [I think it is even a Transmutation, not Illusion, spell!], but apparently, nope! It is not.

[Keltest]

The fact that True Seeing beats Polymorph always annoys me, because I think that Polymorph is actually changing a creature's shape [I think it is even a Transmutation, not Illusion, spell!], but apparently, nope! It is not.

It is, but your true form is "remembered", because spells can remove the polymorph and restore you to normal, rather than needing another polymorph to fix you.

[Socksy]

The fact that True Seeing beats Polymorph always annoys me, because I think that Polymorph is actually changing a creature's shape [I think it is even a Transmutation, not Illusion, spell!], but apparently, nope! It is not.

Has anyone unrelated to the IFCC or Team Evil actually cast true seeing on Tri-kon? Or should I call him Durgak? Which sounds better?

[Darkweave31]

I find it hard to believe that V and blackwing would have missed something like that here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html

[mikeejimbo]

I find it hard to believe that V and blackwing would have missed something like that here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html

If Vaarsuvius had come close to looking at Durkon with True Seeing, the IFCC would have taken possession of his soul for a bit, and then led V to believe it was because he was about to find the gate.

[Darkweave31]

And Miko not detecting evil on "Durkon"? Chimera are usually chaotic evil.

Edit: Especially a chimera that is supposedly now working for the IFCC and killed a lawful good cleric in order to usurp his position.

Edit2: Also those anti-magic cells were 100% operational when Durkon was in there as evidenced by the fact that Elan's bardsong didn't work and they were in the same cell.

It's a fun little conspiracy theory, but I keep stepping in too many plot holes to be convinced.

[Socksy]

I find it hard to believe that V and blackwing would have missed something like that here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html

Them and all two of their collective ranks in Spot? Or was it Search?

[thereaper]

I find it hard to believe that V and blackwing would have missed something like that here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html

Why would V be looking "Durkon"s way? All he has to do is stay behind V.


And Miko not detecting evil on "Durkon"? Chimera are usually chaotic evil.

Edit: Especially a chimera that is supposedly now working for the IFCC and killed a lawful good cleric in order to usurp his position.

Edit2: Also those anti-magic cells were 100% operational when Durkon was in there as evidenced by the fact that Elan's bardsong didn't work and they were in the same cell.

It's a fun little conspiracy theory, but I keep stepping in too many plot holes to be convinced.

Did the bard song not work? Or did the Order simply never notice the benefits?

[Ghost Nappa]

Wait, it's coming together now. He's working with the IFCC and part of that mission involved infiltrating Xykon's organization. Then either Xykon had him infiltrate the Order, which also served the IFCC so he took it, becoming a triple agent, OR the IFCC thought he'd be more useful infiltrating the Order so he faked his death to get out of Xykon's service.

I object.

If Trigak WAS impersonating Durkon, it would be impossible for him to cast any spells with [Good] descriptors, like Holy Word (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/holy-word--2623/). It would also be impossible for him to spontaneously cast Cure X spells.

Unless you can somehow prove that Trigak was able to cast a Level 7 Cleric Spell that is restricted to a caster not of his alignment, be able to polymorph to a Dwarf nigh-constantly - even in an anti-magic cell - AND give a reason for why they would do this complicated mess (when the sheer power advantage Trigak would have over the Order would make killing them easier), I claim that the Occam's Razor answer - that the Giant hasn't been tricking us the readers for the last 11-12 years and the events depicted in-comic occur exactly as they seem - to be far less contradictory.

To be clear, in order to be able to Polymorph (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/polymorph--2854/), one would need to be a Level 7 or higher Arcane caster. In order to cast Holy Word, one would have to be a Level 13 Good Cleric.

In order for Trigak to do this, he would have to be a Level 20 nigh-epic multi-class arcane/divine caster who is OPENLY violating the rules of RAW (Trigak was evil, if you claim he is Good so he can cast Holy Word, he necessarily can't be working with the IFCC), and have some motivation to infiltrate the Order but NOT kill them, with Xykon openly lying to both his minions and the readers about his death, capable of deceiving Thor and his angels/seraphim, and several other inconsistencies....

in a series that is already aware of Occam's Razor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html).

[ImperatorV]

Dude, it's a fun thread. Stop being so serious.

[deworde]

WAT................

[137beth]

Wait! Look here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html

Trigak-disguised-as-Durkon approved of the actions V took while under the effects of the soul-splice, he's in league with the IFCC!

That's it!
this theory (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326025) makes so much more sense now!

[martianmister]

This is the best idea ever:smallbiggrin:

But wait, does that mean that Trigak was trying to seduce Hilgya? Or that Trigak was able to gain Thor's favor here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html)?

Actually, does that mean that Trigak was able to trick Thor into thinking he is a dwarf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html)?

Remember, Thor is an idiot. He can't tell the difference between them.

[Kornaki]

Some counterpoints

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html

At no point does Miko actually say that Durkon tested as not evil. She says she tested Durkon, Elan and Roy, and Roy tested as Evil, strongly as that. Durkon also could have tested as evil, just not as strongly, and she would have been able to make that statement.

Then when she rescans she says "But you are scanning strongly evil!" which is a true statement and is independent of what she scanned him as before. The wording is very careful to make sure that Miko never says out loud that Durkon was cleared.

In the next comic
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

she is interrupted before she could finish her sentence "Actually the halfling still needs to be scanned, and the dwarf was evil when I scanned before as well". Or she just assumed that he held the crown enough previously to pick up some of the evil traits. No big deal there, as his refusal to fight (and watch the Order get slaughtered, all part of Trigak's plan!) indicates that he is in fact a "good" character, regardless of detect evil.

Another strong point is here
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html


I can swear on Thor's beard that the five of us never left our cells
which would be a true statement if you count Trigak's three heads, Thor and Miko (who don't have cells and therefore cannot leave them), as these are the only entities directly involved in the conversation.

You will also notice in all the panels that Durkon is standing farther over to the side than the rest of the characters; the anti-magic field simply doesn't cover the whole cell and he was standing in the corner where he would be able to maintain his cover.

[martianmister]

Also Trigak doesn't have to be evil, he could be neutral with evil tendencies.

[mikeejimbo]

He also could still prepare Cure spells. It's not like spontaneously converting them is visible to the outside world. Or maybe it is, but I don't think we know for sure.

The Holy Word I can't explain, admittedly. UMD to emulate a Good alignment and Sleight of Hand?

[thereaper]

He also could still prepare Cure spells. It's not like spontaneously converting them is visible to the outside world. Or maybe it is, but I don't think we know for sure.

The Holy Word I can't explain, admittedly. UMD to emulate a Good alignment and Sleight of Hand?

Works for me.

Now, we can we stop worrying about little details and get back to Trigak's plans?

[snikrept]

In order for Trigak to do this, he would have to be a Level 20 nigh-epic multi-class arcane/divine caster who is OPENLY violating the rules of RAW
So Trigak is really the main villain of this campaign? It all makes so much sense now. Multiclass arcane/divine means he's got designs on the gate ritual, clearly!

[Socksy]

The dragon head is obviously Arcane, leaving either the goat or the lion to be Divine.

Perhaps the remaining head is Psionic. Ooooh, or uses warlock 'magic'! He's in league with the IFCC, there are plenty of demons there he could sell his soul to o:

[CapnCoconuts]

This is the best parody theory ever.

[mikeejimbo]

So Trigak is really the main villain of this campaign? It all makes so much sense now. Multiclass arcane/divine means he's got designs on the gate ritual, clearly!

Oh man. I like that even better. What classes? I've always wanted to go Wizard / Archivist.

Ooh and what about his mate? He claimed to be in a relationship (and as Elan put it, not a 'player'). Could have just been a successful save vs the illusion, especially considering that he subsequently hooks up with Hilgya.

Unless she was his mate, also polymorphed into a dwarf! Their whole interaction was either staged to fool the readers, some sort of secret code, or just the kind of "role playing" they're into.

[Socksy]

Oh man. I like that even better. What classes? I've always wanted to go Wizard / Archivist.

Ooh and what about his mate? He claimed to be in a relationship (and as Elan put it, not a 'player'). Could have just been a successful save vs the illusion, especially considering that he subsequently hooks up with Hilgya.

Unless she was his mate, also polymorphed into a dwarf! Their whole interaction was either staged to fool the readers, some sort of secret code, or just the kind of "role playing" they're into.

And Sabine knew she was his mate, so left her behind intentionally as a favour!

[137beth]

I object.

If Trigak WAS impersonating Durkon, it would be impossible for him to cast any spells with [Good] descriptors, like Holy Word (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/holy-word--2623/). It would also be impossible for him to spontaneously cast Cure X spells.

Unless you can somehow prove that Trigak was able to cast a Level 7 Cleric Spell that is restricted to a caster not of his alignment, be able to polymorph to a Dwarf nigh-constantly - even in an anti-magic cell - AND give a reason for why they would do this complicated mess (when the sheer power advantage Trigak would have over the Order would make killing them easier), I claim that the Occam's Razor answer - that the Giant hasn't been tricking us the readers for the last 11-12 years and the events depicted in-comic occur exactly as they seem - to be far less contradictory.

To be clear, in order to be able to Polymorph (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/polymorph--2854/), one would need to be a Level 7 or higher Arcane caster. In order to cast Holy Word, one would have to be a Level 13 Good Cleric.

In order for Trigak to do this, he would have to be a Level 20 nigh-epic multi-class arcane/divine caster who is OPENLY violating the rules of RAW (Trigak was evil, if you claim he is Good so he can cast Holy Word, he necessarily can't be working with the IFCC), and have some motivation to infiltrate the Order but NOT kill them, with Xykon openly lying to both his minions and the readers about his death, capable of deceiving Thor and his angels/seraphim, and several other inconsistencies....

in a series that is already aware of Occam's Razor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html).

He doesn't need to be an arcane caster, UMD+divine insight takes care of polymorph.

[lunar2]

I object.

If Trigak WAS impersonating Durkon, it would be impossible for him to cast any spells with [Good] descriptors, like Holy Word (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/holy-word--2623/). It would also be impossible for him to spontaneously cast Cure X spells.

Unless you can somehow prove that Trigak was able to cast a Level 7 Cleric Spell that is restricted to a caster not of his alignment, be able to polymorph to a Dwarf nigh-constantly - even in an anti-magic cell - AND give a reason for why they would do this complicated mess (when the sheer power advantage Trigak would have over the Order would make killing them easier), I claim that the Occam's Razor answer - that the Giant hasn't been tricking us the readers for the last 11-12 years and the events depicted in-comic occur exactly as they seem - to be far less contradictory.

To be clear, in order to be able to Polymorph (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/polymorph--2854/), one would need to be a Level 7 or higher Arcane caster. In order to cast Holy Word, one would have to be a Level 13 Good Cleric.

In order for Trigak to do this, he would have to be a Level 20 nigh-epic multi-class arcane/divine caster who is OPENLY violating the rules of RAW (Trigak was evil, if you claim he is Good so he can cast Holy Word, he necessarily can't be working with the IFCC), and have some motivation to infiltrate the Order but NOT kill them, with Xykon openly lying to both his minions and the readers about his death, capable of deceiving Thor and his angels/seraphim, and several other inconsistencies....

in a series that is already aware of Occam's Razor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html).

you don't have to be good to cast holy word. you just can't be evil. also, he could be an archivist. they don't have an alignment restriction on their spells, and with some cheese they can get sorc/wizard spells in their book. or he could be a sorcerer pulling spells off the cleric list (they can do that, with DM's permission). or what about that class from dragon compendium that can cast both arcane and divine spells?

[ImperatorV]

You know, this theory is looking more and more plausible by the post, which is kinda scary. Then again, redesign through the discussion thread index, plausible theories that were dismissed as wild speculation have been right before. Could we have stumbled upon The Giant's secret plan?

The question should be answered next book, when Durkon gets his long delayed character development. How the development takes shape will tell us a lot about whether Durkon is a real character... Or a record breaking length brick joke.

[Keltest]

You know, this theory is looking more and more plausible by the post, which is kinda scary. Then again, redesign through the discussion thread index, plausible theories that were dismissed as wild speculation have been right before. Could we have stumbled upon The Giant's secret plan?

The question should be answered next book, when Durkon gets his long delayed character development. How the development takes shape will tell us a lot about whether Durkon is a real character... Or a record breaking length brick joke.
I dunno, its got to compete with 8-bit theater. they had a brick joke that waited the entire comic to finally pull off.

[pennzqwu]

And there's even more proof! In this link, (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/CafePress2013/OOTSCalendar_FrontPage.png) it's shown that the chimera is deliberately aiming the fire breath at Durkon, who's clad in heavy and restricting armor! He's obviously trying to weaken the cleric before dealing the (unintentional falling) finishing blow! :smallbiggrin:

[Socksy]

And there's even more proof! In this link, (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/CafePress2013/OOTSCalendar_FrontPage.png) it's shown that the chimera is deliberately aiming the fire breath at Durkon, who's clad in heavy and restricting armor! He's obviously trying to weaken the cleric before dealing the (unintentional falling) finishing blow! :smallbiggrin:

He could have cast some sort of dominate spell on the real Durkon to keep him in the right place at the right time, to make it easier for him to switch o:

[SiuiS]

In comic 21

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html

Belkar splats Trigak onto the ground, and we don't see Durkon again in that scene. The next time we see him

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html

he has "mysteriously" gained a penalty to his move silently check, a penalty which did not affect them previously when sneaking up on the goblins here

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html.

In comic 21 Trigak's return was also heavily foreshadowed. The only explanation is that after the Order walked off, Trigak polymorphed into the shape of Durkon, who was crushed under his immense barely alive body. Trigak has been adventuring with the Order ever since. This theory is reinforced by the Order losing track of their members often, for example Durkon after the fight over the Amulet of Dorukan, or Haley during their fight with the BBQ lizards. They easily could have missed Durkon being crushed under Trigak, and then Trigak could have rejoined them in polymorphed form at any time after that.

This theory is then proven later in the comic. In strip number 743

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html

upon seeing Durkon Tarquin declares "the more the merrier, I say". We know that Tarquin perpetually wears a ring of True Seeing, so would see Trigak's true form and know that he is being joined by not one, but three guests, hence his saying that.

In the very next panel he then refers to Durkon as "the dwarf", not as Durkon, even though he knows Durkon's name. This would be unusual if Tarquin had no reason to believe he needed to emphasize the race of said dwarf, but if he is attempting to help Trigak stay undercover (as it would be impolite to spoil the illusory cover of a dinner guest) then it would make sense that Tarquin reinforces the fake race that Trigak is hiding under.

Therefore, Malack did not vampirize the dwarf that we know as Durkon, as that dwarf died 900 strips ago. Instead the vampire that we see is the polymorphed vampirized Trigak, who will be exacting his vengeance upon the Order at exactly the worst time.

Can't work. The oracle would have pegged him.

[Socksy]

Can't work. The oracle would have pegged him.

The Oracle is a jerk who would not have said anything to the Order. Anyway, I don't think he ever mentioned Durkon by name?

[mightycleric]

And, it is possible that Trigak worshiped Tiamat (another multi-headed being with one of those heads being a red dragon head), which would mean that, if this theory were true, that it would require the Oracle to have ratted out a fellow Tiamat worshiper to the Order of the Stick, who he hates (with Durkon being one of the two that helped hold him out the window before).

[Manticorkscrew]

Of course Durkon is not the real vampire. The real vampire is society.

Did you think about it from that angle? Huh? :smalltongue:

[Socksy]

And, it is possible that Trigak worshiped Tiamat (another multi-headed being with one of those heads being a red dragon head), which would mean that, if this theory were true, that it would require the Oracle to have ratted out a fellow Tiamat worshiper to the Order of the Stick, who he hates (with Durkon being one of the two that helped hold him out the window before).

"Durkon" did make V feel even worse about the whole IFCC Incident, perhaps he, as a follower of Tiamat, was upset about Familicide?

[SiuiS]

The Oracle is a jerk who would not have said anything to the Order. Anyway, I don't think he ever mentioned Durkon by name?

He answered a Durkon specific question in a Durkon specific way, though. And is not like he has any control over what he sees, he just spins it straight.


Of course Durkon is not the real vampire. The real vampire is society.

Did you think about it from that angle? Huh? :smalltongue:

I dunno. It's hard to take defense of a chimera from a manticore. Seems like you'd be biased, y'know~?

[pennzqwu]

He answered a Durkon specific question in a Durkon specific way, though. And is not like he has any control over what he sees, he just spins it straight.

We've already established that he scried upon the order pre-battle, and that he had enough time to figure out parts of Durkon's accent. It's not too much to say that he could've found out his goals. Maybe his goat head is Psychic!

Remember, Durkon and Roy are not exactly on friendly terms with the Oracle, even for the first in-comic meeting. If I were dangled out the window, I'd probably want to kill them, or at least not save them. That's what the Oracle did; he maintained the not-Durkon's cover by never speaking directly to him without a prophecy, which is vague and not referring to Durkon, but Trigak himself.

[Keltest]

He answered a Durkon specific question in a Durkon specific way, though. And is not like he has any control over what he sees, he just spins it straight.



I dunno. It's hard to take defense of a chimera from a manticore. Seems like you'd be biased, y'know~?

As we have seen, the oracle does not need to be specifically asked a question to go into trance mode.

[Tragak]

And, it is possible that Trigak worshiped Tiamat (another multi-headed being with one of those heads being a red dragon head), which would mean that, if this theory were true, that it would require the Oracle to have ratted out a fellow Tiamat worshiper to the Order of the Stick, who he hates (with Durkon being one of the two that helped hold him out the window before). This thread just keeps getting better and better :smallbiggrin:

[Socksy]

Can I (attempt to) link to this thread in my sig?:smallbiggrin:

[mikeejimbo]

I was also under the impression that everyone visited the Oracle alone, so the frame with Durkon and Durkon's prophecy were self reported. And lied about, apparently.

[Kornaki]

I was also under the impression that everyone visited the Oracle alone, so the frame with Durkon and Durkon's prophecy were self reported. And lied about, apparently.

This is a good point. We really have no idea what Trigak really asked the Oracle. I also agree that if the Oracle knew Trigak was undercover he would do whatever necessary to maintain that cover; dude is not friends with the Order at all.

Some more evidence

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html

Durkon acts more like someone who only recently took over a high level character and doesn't really know all the bonuses and abilities he gets than a character that has grown organically from level 1. This scene makes a lot more sense if Durkon is Trigak in disguise trying to remember all the bonuses he is supposed to be getting.

On Hilgya,
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html


just because we're the same class and race
confirms that Hilgya is in fact Trigak's mate in disguise, because they are the same race. That's why he was willing to sleep with Hilgya afterwards, when he wasn't willing to chase Elan's illusion before. He is trying to explain to Elan that 'even though we're the same class and race, it takes a special connection with someone that you can't get upon first meeting them. Why, I remember the first time my mate and I made love....' because he was slipping into a nostalgic mood upon seeing his true love once more.

In fact I now suspect that Trigak is not evil, but his mate is. Trigak is simply naive, and was sent by his mate to infiltrate the Order as part of her plan to steal the Amulet from Nale (a plan on which Trigak was not filled in on, hence his confusion at the ambush). He then learned during their alone session that his mate in fact tried to kill her last mate, and breaks off the relationship after realizing that that is exactly what she tried to do to him as well. Alone and confused, Trigak decides to keep his cover with the Order because he has no plans otherwise. He is still unsure of how to leverage his new position, but we will be seeing Hilgya return at some point to try to convince him to turn on the Order and join her in casting the gate ritual. Bringing us full circle to the question of how does vampirism effect Durkon's character, which we will see play out only with Trigak's character instead; in particular whether this will make him turn fully evil and join Hilgya in her plan to take over the world.

Socksy, anything to spread the word. People need to know!

[Socksy]

Naah, Trigak is evil. He's just not EVIL-evil, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, he might have known Xykon would be watching him and Hilgya on the crystal ball television whatsit, so he has to act like he's never met her before in order to hide any involvement with the Linear Guild and by proxy, the IFCC!

Also, fixed my sig, and removed the awkward self-promo while I was at it c:

[ImperatorV]

Incidentally, this explains the "right as Thor's rain" Comment. Because almost nothing has changed; he was evil in the first place, the only difference is that he is undead.

I still have one problem with this theory though. Why was he so sympathetic to Haley here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html

...O ****. He said he was happy Roy died. Before saying anything else. I just disproved my own point.

This makes too much sense.

[Socksy]

Incidentally, this explains the "right as Thor's rain" Comment. Because almost nothing has changed; he was evil in the first place, the only difference is that he is undead.

I still have one problem with this theory though. Why was he so sympathetic to Haley here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html

...O ****. He said he was happy Roy died. Before saying anything else. I just disproved my own point.

This makes too much sense.

Speaking of the entire vampire thing, that would also explain why he was so happy to kill Z - he was allowed to let the LG charade slip a little bit - and why he almost certainly won't want to be killed and raised: Don't dead creatures automatically resume their natural form?

[mikeejimbo]

I still have one problem with this theory though. Why was he so sympathetic to Haley here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html

...O ****. He said he was happy Roy died. Before saying anything else. I just disproved my own point.

This makes too much sense.

Plus, he still needed her to continue with the mission. He can't swipe the Gate from them if they don't get there in the first place.

[The Kind Knido]

This is so incredibly ridiculous that is simply has to be true.

Best thread ever. Seriously.

Even if this isn't true, someone has to go out of their way to create a short story arc (maybe about 10 pages), taking place in an alternate dimension where it IS true.

[snikrept]

This theory is shaping up well, but the real unanswered question is how is Guy with a Halberd involved?

[Alignment]

How is Trigak making himself smell like Durkon to fool Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html)? Does he have some kind of smell imitation spell?

Or is Belkar in on it? Did Belkar "kill" Trigak in #21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) and distract Roy in #22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html)?

[Keltest]

How is Trigak making himself smell like Durkon to fool Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html)? Does he have some kind of smell imitation spell?

Or is Belkar in on it? Did Belkar "kill" Trigak in #21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) and distract Roy in #22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html)?


Maybe he's just wearing Durkon's armor.

[Socksy]

Probably prestidigitation. It can be used to dirty as well as clean, and surely the Dragon head at least would have a keen nose.

[Zweisteine]

How is Trigak making himself smell like Durkon to fool Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html)? Does he have some kind of smell imitation spell?

Or is Belkar in on it? Did Belkar "kill" Trigak in #21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0021.html) and distract Roy in #22 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html)?

For smell, his transformation might just be very powerful. After all, he does have Durkon's casting... I'd bet it's a custom epic spell designed by Xykon for this explicit purpose. That also shows Xykon's ingenuity: he is not actually as stupid as he acts, and is actually very, very smart (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManipulativeBastard). He's probably even puppet-mastering Redcloak, while acting as the puppet. Hmmm...

There is a spell, and a special class feature (specially made for recurring villains, as a matter of fact), called "Feign Death." It makes you look dead. Trigak used it, which explains his apparent death at the beginning of the comic.



He answered a Durkon specific question in a Durkon specific way, though. And is not like he has any control over what he sees, he just spins it straight.
He could easily have lied (i.e. the quesition the oracle asked Tiamat was not the same one Durkon aseked). It doesn't matter though. The question wasn't too Durkon-specific, asking only this: "how will I finally be returnin' to me beloved dwarven homelands?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html). The dwarven homelands are beloved of many Dwarves. He may have been there before as well, and possibly even owned land (or been given it while away), explaining the statement that the lands were his (perhaps Xykon promised him some of the dwarven lands after he takes over the world). Of course, the answer indicates that he'll die before he gets the chance to go anyway, but vampirism* probably counts.


I was also under the impression that everyone visited the Oracle alone, so the frame with Durkon and Durkon's prophecy were self reported. And lied about, apparently.
Judging by the second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), they all got their answers in the same room. The other panels only show them one at a time so there is enough room for the entire strip.

Durkon will bring death and destruction when he returns to the dwarven lands. If Trigak changed his name to Durkon (important, so he can fool Zones of Truth and the like to affirm his identity), the prophecy could just as easily be about him. We never heard the exact word, so it is not particularly unsafe to assume that they went something like ""Durkon Thundershield will bring death and destruction when next he returns to his home." With a name change, that could count the former Trigak (now Durkon, obviously) as well.

*His vampirism is a major problem with this theory. Magical Beasts such as chimeras cannot become Vampires. Only humanoids and monstrous humanoids can gain that template. This is easily fixed with three spells cast in a row (and slightly questionably spell effect combinations). The first is baleful polymorph, turning Trigak permanently into a small animal. The second is polymorph any object, making him permanently into a small-sized dwarf (there are a few of those). The third is another polymorph and object, turning him into a Hill Dwarf. As all three spells are permanent, none wear off, and each of them remains permanent (the duration factor for PAO might change if the spells beneath it wore off, depending on who you ask). As a humanoid, he may now become a vampire.
(And the spells are at Xykon's (very high) caster level, so they won't be dispelled easily, if anyone is high enough level even to have a chance).

[Ghost Nappa]

Dude, it's a fun thread. Stop being so serious.

My definition of fun is dependent on the actual likelihood of the involved conspiracy theory being possible. It requires rigorous examination: if it sinks, then I've contributed to debunking it and I feel like a hero. If it floats, then I've actually made the case for it stronger by cross-examining its contradictions.

Basically the goal is to be Pheonix Wright and use the Perry Mason method until you can't anymore or don't need to anymore.



*His vampirism is a major problem with this theory. Magical Beasts such as chimeras cannot become Vampires. Only humanoids and monstrous humanoids can gain that template. This is easily fixed with three spells cast in a row (and slightly questionably spell effect combinations). The first is baleful polymorph, turning Trigak permanently into a small animal. The second is polymorph any object, making him permanently into a small-sized dwarf (there are a few of those). The third is another polymorph and object, turning him into a Hill Dwarf. As all three spells are permanent, none wear off, and each of them remains permanent (the duration factor for PAO might change if the spells beneath it wore off, depending on who you ask). As a humanoid, he may now become a vampire.
(And the spells are at Xykon's (very high) caster level, so they won't be dispelled easily, if anyone is high enough level even to have a chance).


Baleful Polymorph is the lowest level one (requiring Level 9 Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/etc.), which still means that he would have to be a Level 22 multi-class arcane/divine caster in order to have both Holy Word and Baleful Polymorph.

Someone point out that we could be a Neutral Cleric pre-vampirization. We know given Miko that she would not have an evil aura that slide past her (both given her treatment towards Roy when he had the Crown on and by virtue of being a Paladin). Detect Evil does not require a roll to use, it's impossible for her to fail (although it is possible to trick, this would rely on Trigak!Durkon using an Undetectable Alignment spell without anyone noticing), and we know she can't lie about it. We also know that Durkon is explicitly a Cleric of Thor pre-vampirization given the moments where he's talking directly to Thor (like in Cliffport with Weather Control). Assuming Thor is NG, Durkon would have to be TN. This would also require Trigak!Durkon to make a Will saving throw against being deafened by the Holy Word for not being Good.
He would have a Will Save of 14 from multi-classing (ignoring Wisdom because that would both add to the DC of the save and buff the Will save by the same amount). His caster-level would be 22 (it could be higher, but then his Will save would also be higher).

[Lexible]

In comic 21

[snip major pear-shaped sideways plot twist]



I like it!

[Lexible]

There is a spell, and a special class feature (specially made for recurring villains, as a matter of fact), called "Feign Death." It makes you look dead.

Which is also super useful for sneaky heroic battle-clerics to weave subterfuge into their combat tactics. Not just for villains!

[Tragak]

My definition of fun is dependent on the actual likelihood of the involved conspiracy theory being possible. :smallconfused: What.

[mightycleric]

My definition of fun is dependent on the actual likelihood of the involved conspiracy theory being possible. It requires rigorous examination: if it sinks, then I've contributed to debunking it and I feel like a hero. If it floats, then I've actually made the case for it stronger by cross-examining its contradictions.

Basically the goal is to be Pheonix Wright and use the Perry Mason method until you can't anymore or don't need to anymore.




Baleful Polymorph is the lowest level one (requiring Level 9 Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/etc.), which still means that he would have to be a Level 22 multi-class arcane/divine caster in order to have both Holy Word and Baleful Polymorph.

Someone point out that we could be a Neutral Cleric pre-vampirization. We know given Miko that she would not have an evil aura that slide past her (both given her treatment towards Roy when he had the Crown on and by virtue of being a Paladin). Detect Evil does not require a roll to use, it's impossible for her to fail (although it is possible to trick, this would rely on Trigak!Durkon using an Undetectable Alignment spell without anyone noticing), and we know she can't lie about it. We also know that Durkon is explicitly a Cleric of Thor pre-vampirization given the moments where he's talking directly to Thor (like in Cliffport with Weather Control). Assuming Thor is NG, Durkon would have to be TN. This would also require Trigak!Durkon to make a Will saving throw against being deafened by the Holy Word for not being Good.
He would have a Will Save of 14 from multi-classing (ignoring Wisdom because that would both add to the DC of the save and buff the Will save by the same amount). His caster-level would be 22 (it could be higher, but then his Will save would also be higher).

Trigak wouldn't need to make a Will Save for a Holy Word he casts, because he has more HD than Cleric levels. As such, he would be immune to the effects, unless using a scroll from a much higher level Cleric.

If you consider him having taken the Mystic Theurge class (which we know exists in the comic), he wouldn't need to be level 22. He could be as low as level 18, and be able to cast Holy Word and Polymorph Any Object. If you say that he either was level 20, or got there from their xp after joining (a reasonable assumption, when you think of how many monsters Durkon "survived an encounter with" after using "Sanctuary" with Hilgya (and that was just a party of 2, so more xp), then he might be able to cast 9th level Wizard spells, and that would allow for Mordenkainen's Disjunction, which could potentially disrupt the AM field (though anybody currently in the prison wouldn't notice, because any magic items they had would also have been affected, so they'd think they were still in the AM field). If he took still spell (a good call, since he doesn't really seem to have hands) and silent spell, and then the divine metamagic equivalents (which don't need to be used on divine spells), it would explain why nobody noticed him casting it (or the spell to change into Durkon, or the "Feign Death" spell). Even if he is dual-classed, he's certainly earned xp if he's been adventuring in the place of Durkon since that time.

Depending on how you read that spell, by the way, he wouldn't need to use Baleful Polymorph first to permanently be a Dwarf. He would at least get a +7 modifier to it, if you consider him changing to a creature with the same or lower intelligence (+2), and that they are both in the "animal" kingdom (+5). If you consider him to be a mammal, because most of him is mammalian (the Ram's head is mammalian, his body looks like it might have fur, and I think the other head is a lion, and the MM says two of the three heads are mammalian, and that all 4 legs are), then that means he shares a creature type with Durkon (another +2), which gives it the +9 needed for it to be a permanent change.

Another piece of food for thought: In strip 7 we see Durkon cast "Miracle", which is a 9th level spell. After strip 21, we've not seen any other 9th level spells cast by him, that I can remember.

[lunar2]

My definition of fun is dependent on the actual likelihood of the involved conspiracy theory being possible. It requires rigorous examination: if it sinks, then I've contributed to debunking it and I feel like a hero. If it floats, then I've actually made the case for it stronger by cross-examining its contradictions.

Basically the goal is to be Pheonix Wright and use the Perry Mason method until you can't anymore or don't need to anymore.




Baleful Polymorph is the lowest level one (requiring Level 9 Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/etc.), which still means that he would have to be a Level 22 multi-class arcane/divine caster in order to have both Holy Word and Baleful Polymorph.

Someone point out that we could be a Neutral Cleric pre-vampirization. We know given Miko that she would not have an evil aura that slide past her (both given her treatment towards Roy when he had the Crown on and by virtue of being a Paladin). Detect Evil does not require a roll to use, it's impossible for her to fail (although it is possible to trick, this would rely on Trigak!Durkon using an Undetectable Alignment spell without anyone noticing), and we know she can't lie about it. We also know that Durkon is explicitly a Cleric of Thor pre-vampirization given the moments where he's talking directly to Thor (like in Cliffport with Weather Control). Assuming Thor is NG, Durkon would have to be TN. This would also require Trigak!Durkon to make a Will saving throw against being deafened by the Holy Word for not being Good.
He would have a Will Save of 14 from multi-classing (ignoring Wisdom because that would both add to the DC of the save and buff the Will save by the same amount). His caster-level would be 22 (it could be higher, but then his Will save would also be higher).

1. because of his chimera HD, he has more HD than his caster level, meaning that he is immune to the effects of his own holy word.

2. again, he may not be a cleric, he may be an archivist. he would then have no alignment restriction on casting spells, and can get all the necessary spells on one list. that the archivist is squishier than a cleric is made up for by his extra magical beast HD padding both his HP and his BAB. him not having a spell book could be because he took the eidetic wizard acf (the giant has always said he doesn't follow strict RAW, so an archivist could take a wizard acf he otherwise qualifies for).

3. it is fairly simple to hide one's alignment from a detect evil.

so we have a chimera that is a 15th level archivist, for a total 24 hd, CR 19. he's an epic character, but not an epic encounter (before vampire, that is).

[Aquillion]

Remember, Durkon and Roy are not exactly on friendly terms with the Oracle, even for the first in-comic meeting. If I were dangled out the window, I'd probably want to kill them, or at least not save them. That's what the Oracle did; he maintained the not-Durkon's cover by never speaking directly to him without a prophecy, which is vague and not referring to Durkon, but Trigak himself.Also, the question is "how shall I return to my beloved Dwarven homelands?"

Nothing says Trigak can't have beloved dwarven homelands. Maybe he grew up in the same area Durkon did, and was always jealous of how Durkon was accepted in dwarven society while Trigak, a chimera, was not; until one day (hearing that Durkon was challenging Xykon) he offered his services to Xykon as a mercenary, then took the opportunity to replace Durkon.

This also explains how he was able to impersonate Durkon so effectively, of course, since he actually knows Durkon better than anyone in the order.

[M.A.D]

My definition of fun is dependent on the actual likelihood of the involved conspiracy theory being possible. It requires rigorous examination: if it sinks, then I've contributed to debunking it and I feel like a hero. If it floats, then I've actually made the case for it stronger by cross-examining its contradictions.

Yeah, you're fun at parties. We get it.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

It is becoming clear that the Trigak conspiracy is wider than previously thought. Undeniably, the alleged paladin Miko served Trigak, either a knowing servant of the chimera or an easily manipulated dupe, perhaps given orders via her `visions of the gods`, naturally in fact psychic messaged from the disguised Trigak. Why else would she put such trust in what seemed to be an unfamiliar cleric of a heathen god? Why else would she act as the perfect saboteur of Azure City's defences? And why would she, at the perfect time, remove the possibility of either the Azurites or Xykon fulfilling their objectives?

Furthermore, the equally mysterious and mighty figure known unto the world as `That Guy With A Halberd` is also, in all likelihood, an ally or servant of Trigak. Not only did he show surprising ignorance of Azurite counter-siege doctrine (due to only recently having infiltrated the defence), the only reasonable explanation for how such a powerful presence did not easily repel the invaders is that he was cunningly `regulating` the battle, preventing either force from triumphing and weakening the enemies of his three-headed lord.

We have discovered something grand and terrible, Gentlemen...

[Zweisteine]

Trigak's chimera HD are gone because of the polymorph chain I described earlier.


Trigak is purely a cleric now. The polymorph spells were cast for Xykon, who we know for a fact Trigak works for. Any other high-level spells/items required for the disguise were also provided by Xykon.

[lunar2]

why would he go through baleful polymorph, though? that's giving up inborn power for no gain. he can get the permanent duration pao just by casting it twice. then he just needs a +5 tome and some other hidden int boosting item so he can cast his spells.

[Kornaki]

We actually see in comic how Trigak avoid the AMF. He pays the gnomish armorer to make an improved version of his bubble, which has better ventilation but blocks line of effect still. He wears that at all times (notice how we never see him have trouble sneaking again) and it blocks line of effect for the AMF.

[martianmister]

Of course Durkon is not the real vampire. The real vampire is society.

Did you think about it from that angle? Huh? :smalltongue:

No, media is the real vampire!

[Lettuce]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html Any ideas on how Trigak got away with this, though? I'm stumped.

[Aquillion]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html Any ideas on how Trigak got away with this, though? I'm stumped.Trigak is naturally nimble. He simply pretended to not be, most of the time. In that comic he was using the 'dwarf' excuse to stretch his legs -- that's why he stayed nimble until Belkar pointed it out, then quickly went back to pretending to be clumsy.

[Socksy]

Or perhaps he grabbed a level of Ranger somewhere. A Ranger1/Sorcerer3/Cleric3/TheurgeX could be possible.
In fact, about those cleric levels, have we ever actually seen him Turn or Rebuke undead?

[Aquillion]

Or perhaps he grabbed a level of Ranger somewhere. A Ranger1/Sorcerer3/Cleric3/TheurgeX could be possible.
In fact, about those cleric levels, have we ever actually seen him Turn or Rebuke undead?Yes, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html).

(The real Durkon also used it to blind Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html) here, but that was before he was replaced by Trigak -- probably. It could have been Trigak testing his Durkon disguise and taking advantage of the opportunity to hurt Roy and V's eyes in order to weaken them for their upcoming fight.)

[lunar2]

ok, so he's a cleric 1/archivist 15, then. his turn undead vs. redcloak was just for show, he didn't actually expect it to work even against unbolstered ogres.

[Socksy]

Wait wait wait.
What if he was never a chimera in the first place, but something else instead?
DOUBLE ILLUSION!

[137beth]

Wait wait wait.
What if he was never a chimera in the first place, but something else instead?
DOUBLE ILLUSION!

You mean Trigak is really Girard!?!

[Tragak]

You mean Trigak is really Girard!?! He did just mention a level of Ranger :smallwink:

[Socksy]

So Durkon is actually Trigak, who may actually be Girard.
If Girard is a chimera and therefore he and his family are not related to those dragons, then...
Who did V kill? O:

Incidentally, having a Dragon head would explain the name 'draketooth'.

[Tragak]

So Durkon is actually Trigak, who may actually be Girard.
If Girard is a chimera and therefore he and his family are not related to those dragons, then...
Who did V kill? O:

Incidentally, having a Dragon head would explain the name 'draketooth'. Maybe "Durkon" was indeed hit by Familicide like the rest of his family, only barely resisted being killed as outright as they had been, and the amount of necromantic energy poisoning his system was the reason Malack was able to turn him in seconds rather than days?

[Zweisteine]

why would he go through baleful polymorph, though? that's giving up inborn power for no gain. he can get the permanent duration pao just by casting it twice.

Only with one interpretation of PAO stacking. The easiest solution to prevent double PAO cheese is to say that when the first casting wears off, the duration of the second is reduced (or increased) accordingly. While either might work, having baleful polymorph gives the plan a slightly stronger,, and less debatable, basis in the rules (as written and as interpreted).

[lunar2]

but if, as an archivist, he has the native ability to cast PAO, he could simply cast it every week if they don't stack. or, as an epic character, he can easily afford a skin of proteus.

[Socksy]

but if, as an archivist, he has the native ability to cast PAO, he could simply cast it every week if they don't stack. or, as an epic character, he can easily afford a skin of proteus.

Or one of the groups he's working for/with helped him get it, or a similar item.

[roko10]

No, Belkar is Trigak!

I mean, the Belkster engaged Trigak one on one. So Trigak can kill Belkar quickly, Polymorph into an Halfling and then land on the ground standing in Belkar's corpse. It would certainly explain the fact that "Belkar" is evil, but the real Belkar never was.

Also, he never took levels in Ranger. THAT would explain his awful tracking; he never had that ability!

[Socksy]

And for that matter, I'm fairly sure lions and/or dragons get Scent

[TuggyNE]

My definition of fun is dependent on the actual likelihood of the involved conspiracy theory being possible. It requires rigorous examination: if it sinks, then I've contributed to debunking it and I feel like a hero. If it floats, then I've actually made the case for it stronger by cross-examining its contradictions.

Basically the goal is to be Pheonix Wright and use the Perry Mason method until you can't anymore or don't need to anymore.

Or, as Aristotle would say, "Humor is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humor; for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit."

"False wit" is, I think, a pretty good description of this thread. Oh well, they can't all be winners.


Assuming Thor is NG, Durkon would have to be TN.

It's impossible for a Cleric to be (True) Neutral unless their deity is also TN. So alignment makes the thing fall apart. (Along with at least half a dozen other problems.)

[Aquillion]

It's impossible for a Cleric to be (True) Neutral unless their deity is also TN. So alignment makes the thing fall apart. (Along with at least half a dozen other problems.)Thor is confused and Trigak is actually drawing spells from Loki. We've seen Thor acting confused and silly before in-comic, there's no reason he couldn't be giving orders and granting spells that aren't actually reaching Trigak (because he believes he's granting them to the dead Durkon), while Loki (or some other deity) is actually granting Trigak his spells.

[mikeejimbo]

It's impossible for a Cleric to be (True) Neutral unless their deity is also TN. So alignment makes the thing fall apart. (Along with at least half a dozen other problems.)

I was under the impression that this thread was a satire of conspiracy theories, and that therefore having half a dozen things wrong with it is a feature, not a bug.

[Zmeoaice]

It's impossible for a Cleric to be (True) Neutral unless their deity is also TN. So alignment makes the thing fall apart. (Along with at least half a dozen other problems.)

Actually they can be one off from their deity's alignment. So a cleric of a NG god can be NG, LG, CG, or TN.

[TuggyNE]

Actually they can be one off from their deity's alignment. So a cleric of a NG god can be NG, LG, CG, or TN.

Check again.
A cleric may not be [true] neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also [true] neutral.

[Socksy]

SSHHHHHHH. *pap pap*
Leave our conspiracy theory alone :tongue:

[Kornaki]

Obviously Trigak simply stole Durkon's cell phone and uses it to call Thor. It's a whitelisted number so why would Thor bother checking?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html

In fact I speculate Trigak is a cleric of Surtur, and steals spells from Thor in order to weaken his standing in the balance of divinity.

[Duck999]

Ummm... What homeland does Trigak have to return to posthumously? Also, how does he know everything that Durkon knew.

[Keltest]

Ummm... What homeland does Trigak have to return to posthumously? Also, how does he know everything that Durkon knew.

Presumably wherever it is that he was born/spawned/warped into existence/however baby Chimeras are made.

[Duck999]

Also, Durkon makes many cultural references about being a dwarf including
And bein' a Dwarf is about doin yer' duty, even if it makes ye miserable. ESPECIALLY if it makes ye miserable!

Is he making these up?

[137beth]

Also, Durkon makes many cultural references about being a dwarf including
And bein' a Dwarf is about doin yer' duty, even if it makes ye miserable. ESPECIALLY if it makes ye miserable!

Is he making these up?

Remember Trigak is allied with the IFCC, who controlled the linear guild, so he wouldn't have been particularly happy with the fact that Hilgya was planning on backstabbing Nale. He probably wanted to get revenge on her, so he tried to make her miserable.

Speaking of Hilgya, notice how she can use dwarven senses, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) and Trigak doesn't feel anything, since he isn't really a dwarf!

[Duck999]

.

Speaking of Hilgya, notice how she can use dwarven senses, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) and Trigak doesn't feel anything, since he isn't really a dwarf!

Ummm, she made that up. I hope you know that.

[Aquillion]

In fact I speculate Trigak is a cleric of Surtur, and steals spells from Thor in order to weaken his standing in the balance of divinity.Aha!

Trigak is an Ur-Priest. It makes perfect sense; it explains his complicated build and his access to high-level cleric spells, and it explains why he can use Thor's spells illegitimately.


Ummm... What homeland does Trigak have to return to posthumously? Also, how does he know everything that Durkon knew.As I mentioned above, my theory is that Trigak is actually from Durkon's homeland, where he was friends and rival with Durkon and secretly wanted to be a dwarf so he could be accepted. This is the reason he learned so many odd things; it's also how he knows so much about Durkon. Eventually, embittered and angry about how the dwarves never accepted him while his 'friend', Durkon, was accepted everywhere, he joined up with Xykon (having heard Durkon would be there) and used the opportunity to murder Durkon and take his place.

Hence, he genuinely does have beloved dwarven homelands, despite not really being a dwarf.

[Socksy]

Aquillion, you're amazing. Ur-priest. That makes so much sense!

[Kornaki]

Ummm, she made that up. I hope you know that.

Trigak also forgot he had darkvision in that strip. We are supposed to assume that she is making it up but this is really a crucial clue to "Durkon"'s true identity.

[snikrept]

When the Oracle enters his trance he claims he must identify the recipients unambiguously.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

Whether any of the other insults apply, Trigak is not an ape-people. He has not been unambiguously identified. When Trigak receives "Durkon's" answer the prophecy fails for him, possibly giving him Durkon's true answer, but not his own.

[happyman]

When the Oracle enters his trance he claims he must identify the recipients unambiguously.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

Whether any of the other insults apply, Trigak is not an ape-people. He has not been unambiguously identified. When Trigak receives "Durkon's" answer the prophecy fails for him, possibly giving him Durkon's true answer, but not his own.

Oh noes! This beautiful theory has been dealt a death-blow!

In different news, has anyone noticed that the Onion's tagline is "America's Finest News Source"?

[Tragak]

Oh noes! This beautiful theory has been dealt a death-blow! Nonsense! 343 Guil the Oracle did not need to "identify the recipients unambiguously" as "smelly apes," he was just insulting Roy for kicks and then happened to come up with an excuse immediately after the fact.

Also, it sounds like his lie just helped to maintain Trigak's cover from beyond the fourth wall, did it not?

[snikrept]

My point was that when Trigak asks how he'll be returning to his homeland and receives the answer "posthumously," he actually received a wrong answer, since the kobold didn't identify him correctly when he began the trance. This get you out of having to explain the prophecy. It supports the Trigak theory!

[Aquillion]

Alternatively, Trigak was an ape-person at that time due to shapeshifting, and the Oracle's ambiguous one-word answer of 'posthumously' was because Trigak, not being a dwarf and not having a beloved dwarven homeland, will die before getting there -- it was a bit off an answer, yes, but it was as good of an answer as the Oracle could give to a fundamentally flawed and unanswerable question.

The Oracle might have also chosen to interpret 'dwarven' as a sarcastic reference to the fact that Trigak was currently polymorphed into a dwarf and, therefore, Trigak's own homeland was currently their "beloved dwarven homeland" ie the homeland beloved of someone who was currently, due to magic, a dwarf.

[Kornaki]

There are lots of possibilities. It is undeniable that all attempts to shoot down this theory have been deflected away.

[Socksy]

There are lots of possibilities. It is undeniable that all attempts to shoot down this theory have been deflected away.

Occam's razor, it's therefore correct :D

[Duck999]

There are lots of possibilities. It is undeniable that all attempts to shoot down this theory have been deflected away.

Deflected away, yes. With good reasoning, only some of them.

@Socksy: True until proven false?

[Socksy]

@Socksy: True until proven false?

What, Occam's razor, or the theory?

[Duck999]

What, Occam's razor, or the theory?

The theory. Occam's Razor says the truth is the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions. Since Durkon being an imposter is an assumption in of itself, that is the false hypothesis. And please do not fight back, saying we are assuming Durkon is not an imposter, as that would be the equivelant of saying anyone else in the order not being an imposter is an assumption. Just please, no bad reasoning.

[Keltest]

The theory. Occam's Razor says the truth is the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions. Since Durkon being an imposter is an assumption in of itself, that is the false hypothesis. And please do not fight back, saying we are assuming Durkon is not an imposter, as that would be the equivelant of saying anyone else in the order not being an imposter is an assumption. Just please, no bad reasoning.

Durkon being an imposter is the conclusion, not an assumption.

[Domino Quartz]

Guys, I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be a joke.

[Duck999]

Guys, I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be a joke.

It might have originally, but some people got serious about it.

[137beth]

It might have originally, but some people got serious about it.

No, no one got serious about it, we still think it is a joke, people are just drawing out the joke as far as they can.

[Socksy]

{{scrubbed}}

[rbetieh]

Deflected away, yes. With good reasoning, only some of them.

@Socksy: True until proven false?

Around here it is funnier for something to be believed true until proven true, and then immediately believed to be false....

[Aquillion]

Theory: Trigak also has internet access. Therefore, at least some of the people who keep coming into this thread to try and shoot the theory down are actually Trigak in disguise, trying to throw us off the scent!

[Duck999]

Theory: Trigak also has internet access. Therefore, at least some of the people who keep coming into this thread to try and shoot the theory down are actually Trigak in disguise, trying to throw us off the scent!

Dang, you caught us. That makes no sense, Trigak is in a different universe.

[mikeejimbo]

Jokes are serious business.

[137beth]

Theory: Trigak also has internet access. Therefore, at least some of the people who keep coming into this thread to try and shoot the theory down are actually Trigak in disguise, trying to throw us off the scent!
Uh oh, that means Trigak must be planting some CORRECT information as a double-bluff:



Nonsense! 343 Guil the Oracle did not need to "identify the recipients unambiguously" as "smelly apes," he was just insulting Roy for kicks and then happened to come up with an excuse immediately after the fact.

Also, it sounds like his lie just helped to maintain Trigak's cover from beyond the fourth wall, did it not?

Well, or Tragak is just Trigak's Good Opposite.

[Aquillion]

Dang, you caught us. That makes no sense, Trigak is in a different universe.
Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm)!

We already know that Trigak has high-level cleric casting, after all.

[Socksy]

So we must find out: Who here is Trigak?

[mikeejimbo]

I am Trigak!

[Duck999]

So we must find out: Who here is Trigak?

Me
That is a great point.

[137beth]

I'm Trigak!

Trigak? Here.
Trigak? Here.
Trigak? Here.
Trigak?
He's in the loo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0777.html)

[Dwy]

This makes the reuniting scene between Belkar and Durkon after the whole "roy is dead" plot that much deeper.

Trigak, reunited with his would-be killer, has his goat third insulted "Still unfashionably beaded...". He can't unmorph and kill Belkar there and then, as Elan and Haley are watching... Until.... the two latter just leave.

By now it is a safe assumption that Belkar died that day, fulfilling all prophecies, and that the imposter we know as current Belkar obviously is just a third of Trigak, probably the goat third just to add insult to injury, polymorphed in disguise. This explains the strong bond between Trigak and Trigak that is shown when Trigak saves Trigak from Malack, but is vampirized by Malack, and Trigak runs off to the team, heartbroken about Trigak's demise.

Trigak currently hates himself, as he is both vampirized and not, simultaneously. Great internal conflict is coming before a new, stronger and united Trigak finally can face the party.


Edit:
Also, the Oracle is in on the plan, as Trigak's dragon head(which has cleric levels) called in a favor with Tiamat.

[137beth]

Guys, I figured it out!

Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331229). Also, my post on the second page.

Who's the one dropping outlandish theories about the strip with no chance of being right?
CaDzilla!
And what would Trigak do to lull suspicions among the forumites?
Why, propagate outrageous theories about OOTS that have no chance of being right, to throw everyone off track! There's only one possible conclusion from all of this:
CaDzilla is Trigak!

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned, but wouldn't Belkar have been able to tell that it wasn't Durkon by his scent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0244.html) not matching if Trigak had taken over?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No, Trigak was able to win Belkar over to his side so that he wasn't revealed.

[Keltest]

No, Trigak was able to win Belkar over to his side so that he wasn't revealed.

Alternatively, he just bathed in ale. Dwarven sweat glands would finish the job.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

No, Trigak was able to win Belkar over to his side so that he wasn't revealed.

Do you have any evidence of when this would have happened, or are you just deflecting? Also, Belkar was the one to kill the chimera, wouldn't you think he would want to finish the job, because of his pride and what not?


Alternatively, he just bathed in ale. Dwarven sweat glands would finish the job.

When would he have had access to the ale in the dungeon when Belkar was still right there with him? The scent thing would have been pretty immediate.

[Keltest]

Do you have any evidence of when this would have happened, or are you just deflecting? Also, Belkar was the one to kill the chimera, wouldn't you think he would want to finish the job, because of his pride and what not?



When would he have had access to the ale in the dungeon when Belkar was still right there with him? The scent thing would have been pretty immediate.

obviously between the panels when Durkon vanishes and when Trigak replaces him.

[mikeejimbo]

Maybe Polymorph changes scent as well?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Do you have any evidence of when this would have happened, or are you just deflecting? Also, Belkar was the one to kill the chimera, wouldn't you think he would want to finish the job, because of his pride and what not?

I'm not deflecting, I'm getting in the spirit of this thread. If your concern is with evidence, you should be telling us that there is no evidence that Trigak is alive, not that there is no evidence that Belkar would turn against the Order given the chance.

Also, really? There is ample evidence of Belkar wanting to kill or turn against them. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) are good places to look.

[snikrept]

Belkar recognized Roy's scent because Roy was in Roy's body. Roy wasn't polymorphed.

Notably, Belkar did not recognize any goblin scent when the polymorphed goblin was a spy in the Azure City resistance.

... EDIT also, that would be very strange if polymorph gave you a new body but specifically kept your old pores, oils and hormones. How would that even work?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You meant Nale, right?

[Keltest]

You meant Nale, right?

No, Roy, when he became a woman.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oh, I thought we were referring to the instance where everyone except Belkar was fooled by a disguise, not where Belkar was one of several people to correctly identify him.

[TuggyNE]

Notably, Belkar did not recognize any goblin scent when the polymorphed goblin was a spy in the Azure City resistance.

After an archive crawl, I don't think there was ever any time that they were in the same area.

Except of course for that one offscreen time that totally must have happened because reasons.

[Socksy]

They clearly had some time alone together.

Belkar x Goblin Spy OTP!

[snikrept]

After an archive crawl, I don't think there was ever any time that they were in the same area.

Except of course for that one offscreen time that totally must have happened because reasons.

Hmm, you are right. The goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html) was planted in these slaves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html). I had thought he was in these slaves. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html)

[Dwy]

As I explained in my previous post in the thread, Belkar is also Trigak, and has been for some time.

[lunar2]

well, this theory is officially debunked. oh, well. it had a good run.

[Keltest]

well, this theory is officially debunked. oh, well. it had a good run.

Pfft. Trigak is obviously just a minion of Hel who possessed Belkar and Durkon when it "died". It has been waiting for their deaths ever since, subtly manipulating them while waiting to assume full control.

[mikeejimbo]

Seriously, this just really confirms what we already knew - Durkon isn't really in control. Sure, now Trigak is a vampire, but otherwise? Always has been a minion of Hel. I mean OK, now we have confirmation that it's Hel that Trigak has been serving, which further adds credence to the idea that he's a chimera from the dwarven lands. And sure, Hel says that dwarfs fall under her purview, but I don't think it necessarily means that he's literally a dwarf, so much as just that he's from dwarven lands. Don't non-dwarves like Roy also theoretically fall under the Northern Gods?

[oppyu]

I mean, how would not-Durkon get promoted to High Priest of Hel so quickly? Clearly Trigak was already in with Hel before Malack vampirised him.

[lunar2]

I mean, how would not-Durkon get promoted to High Priest of Hel so quickly? Clearly Trigak was already in with Hel before Malack vampirised him.

because Hel only has the one cleric. in fact, that is Hel's only worshiper.

[137beth]

What's really impressive is that Trigak was able to make an illusion of a dwarf appear inside of him.
Actually, never mind, seeing as he already has Polymorph, Silent Image would be easy.

[Gift Jeraff]

Wait, what vampire? :smallconfused:

[Living Oxymoron]

It's clear that this vampire Trigak has the Trickery domain. That's why he can personify Durkon without raising much suspect.

[137beth]

Guys, remember Oppyu's favorite character tournament?

Remember that seemingly insignificant character who ran neck-and-neck with Malack AND Roy?

Yep, Wizard Guy.
There's gotta be some connection between Wizard Guy and Trigak. But what is it?

[Orc Warrior]

Can chimeras even cast spells?

[Socksy]

Can chimeras even cast spells?

Ones with class levels can!

[martianmister]

It's clear that this vampire Trigak has the Trickery domain. That's why he can personify Durkon without raising much suspect.

That's the real Durkon, who is trapped by Trigak so he can use Durkon's memories to perfectly act like him.

[Kornaki]

So when Trigak died, his three souls corresponding to his three heads shot into three members of the Order. One was Belkar, who was easily corrupted to being pure evil. Another is Durkon, who Trigak has been manipulating more subtlely before this point (for example, making him fail his move silently checks). The other is most likely V, whose actions were dictated by Trigak during the soul splice. The giant's been playing the "I am responsible for my own actions" card a bit too straight, we're due for a twist with that plot line anyway.

[137beth]

Ladies and Gentlemen, we might be in serious trouble:
It turns out, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17033061#post17033061)
Trigak hasn't just hijacked some forum accounts to throw us off his trail.
He's replaced The Giant himself!

[Sir_Dr_D]

People, I think you all missed an important point. Haley was the one that new that Trigak was a reoccurring villain. She would know that a reoccurring villain couldn't have died so easy. That means she must suspect Trigak is up to something , and the real reason for some of her mysterious behaviour is to figure out the clues.