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Magnus_Samma
2007-01-23, 10:41 PM
I'm considering putting together a sort of Vampire campaign with D&D rules. The problem here is that in D&D vampires have hideous level adjustments- nobody's going to convince me that a vampire's special abilities are worth all 8 of those lost HD. The obvious answer is to just adjust the level adjustment as I feel appropriate for the campaign, but I'm not sure I trust my own judgement on this issue- I have a terrible head for math, and trying to figure out the value of energy drain vs hit dice is a headache.

The campaign is going to have a very specific tone, with the PCs encouraged to play a particular type of character, with the available PC races reflecting this. The two biggest problems in this area will be the vampire, and the succubus, which both have huge LAs. Considering that this will be a low magic campaign, and that I'm not going to allow succubi to be paladins (because that's just... wrong), my primary concerns are BAB, HP, and AC. I'm pretty sure that I can reduce the LA by 2 for the succubus and 3 for the vampire, resulting in ECL 10 characters at minimum (succubi having 6 racial HD and vampires having to have at least five class levels), without them being too badly overpowered (my belief being that most creatures in D&D canon with an LA could have it reduced by at least one without breaking it). I would like, however, to reduce it further, so the characters could start out at ECL 8... but this would leave the succubus with an LA of 2 and the vampire with an LA of 3, both of which seem considerably too low. Raising those LAs by one to get ECL 9 characters might be a good compromise, but I'm sure a lot of people would argue that it was still too low.

My other idea is that if I used a point buy system to purchase abilities in the campaign, then I could give the powerful races fewer points with which to buy stats, balancing them that way. Another method a friend of mine suggested was gestalt classing- if all of the less powerful races are allowed to take gestalt classes, it could easily make up the power gap between them and the beefier characters. Though I'm not sure how useful gestalting would be in a low-magic campaign world (one of the adaptations being replacing the primary spellcasting classes with the Adept class).

Does any of this make any sense, or am I just revealing myself to be a raging moron?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-23, 10:52 PM
If everyone's going to be a vampire, completely nix the LA and racial HD. It's completely unecessary. Increase the CR, CAREFULLY, by about 1.3x the regular amount, always rounded down.

oriong
2007-01-23, 10:54 PM
My other idea is that if I used a point buy system to purchase abilities in the campaign, then I could give the powerful races fewer points with which to buy stats, balancing them that way. Another method a friend of mine suggested was gestalt classing- if all of the less powerful races are allowed to take gestalt classes, it could easily make up the power gap between them and the beefier characters. Though I'm not sure how useful gestalting would be in a low-magic campaign world (one of the adaptations being replacing the primary spellcasting classes with the Adept class).

Does any of this make any sense, or am I just revealing myself to be a raging moron?

The first idea won't work very well.

Primarily because the reason most of the races are so powerful is that they have great ability scores. Both vampires and succubi have terrific ability score bonuses. And really there just aren't enough points involved in point buy to make this very feasable. If this gets rid of LA in the bargain you're making both of these races very attractive to Min/Maxers.

Don't take the gestalt option. It'll completely overpower the non-vamp and demon characters compared to the vampires and demons.


Frankly for this idea D+D is not the best choice. That's all it really comes down to. The absolute best option is to just find and play some other system. World of Darkness seems the most obvious, but there are certainly others.

Alternatively, your best bet is to try and create a custom Vampire and Succubi PrC. Don't worry about making it emulate the monster's stats, that's not important. It should just grant them what you feel are the essential abilities of those creatures. Then, make the games ECL level high enough that the characters can get partially or completely through that PrC.

Magnus_Samma
2007-01-23, 10:55 PM
If everyone's going to be a vampire, completely nix the LA and racial HD. It's completely unecessary. Increase the CR, CAREFULLY, by about 1.3x the regular amount, always rounded down.

As I stated, vampires probably won't be the only PC race- I'm going for a kind of "classic" horror theme, so other races like werewolves and other types of undead will be available, which mucks things up because such races have noticably lower level adjustments.

I suppose I could just have everyone be a vampire, but I'm not sure I want to restrict the player's options that much.



Frankly for this idea D+D is not the best choice. That's all it really comes down to. The absolute best option is to just find and play some other system. World of Darkness seems the most obvious, but there are certainly others.


I'm aware of that, but D20 is really the only RP system I'm familiar with at the moment, and I'd like to try working within it before I go to more drastic lengths to make the idea work.

I'll probably fail, but trying's the fun part, ne?

Mewtarthio
2007-01-23, 11:03 PM
For the vampire, you could start the character off as a slightly weaker vampire with lesser powers for a time.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Scroll down about a third of the way for the "Vampire Template Class" which provides eight pseudo-levels of LA abilities. It's designed for allowing a gradual increase in ECL along with the rest of the party (that is, as you gain "levels," you advance in the template class instead). The obvious downside is that you'll spend a lot of time (eight levels if you start out with no levels in the template class) forced along a predefined path and get no increase in HD during that time.

Alternatively, if everyone will be playing high-LA creatures, you could just ignore an equal amount of LA for everyone. The main reason that LA is generally so much higher than CR is that certain abilities have different implications in the hands of PCs (eg immortality, mental domination, and flight). If everyone has insane abilities, it's more balanced. You could even base encounters and experience off of the party's CR. If you've got succubi and vampires in your party, odds are you're okay with things being a little crazy.

Magnus_Samma
2007-01-23, 11:14 PM
Not only am I okay with things being crazy, that's kind of the idea. :P

I might just have to find a high-LA substitute for the lower LA races I wanted to include... Raksashas are SORT of like werecreatures, right? I could also do the opposite, but dhampir are just so angsty...

oriong
2007-01-23, 11:23 PM
Well, just making a werewolf a Were-Direwolf gives them ECL 9.

Magnus_Samma
2007-01-23, 11:27 PM
... that works on so many levels.

*takes notes furiously*

TimeWizard
2007-01-23, 11:28 PM
Angsty, mostly I blame Anne Rice- Vampires used to be cool.
But then again with Maderas and Mid-bo... I mean Vyers making vampires and demons cool again, I can't complain.

watch out for those black pretzels, I hear they can be a real killer.

Thomas
2007-01-24, 07:20 AM
What, vampires aren't worth their LA?

They have huge stat bonuses and no penalties (unless you count not having Con, but that also makes them immune to everything that requires a Fort save and doesn't specifically affect objects). They are unkillable. You kill one, it turns into mist and reforms in its coffin. Pretty much the only enemies that stand a chance of killing a vampire PC are very intelligent, prepared, and dedicated generally humanoid opponents who know they're dealing with a vampire, have done their research, and have equipped themselves.

They get to dominate people with a glance, cause two negative levels with touch, change shape into bats at will ( = flight)...

Heck, vampires are better than liches.

They're worth every level of LA, and still too powerful to be used as PCs in a regular campaign.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-24, 08:39 AM
And they get spawn, don't forget the spawn. A vampire lord can have a near-infinite chain of lesser vampires bound to his will.

Yeah, like Thomas said. There are definitely lots of monsters where the LA just isn't worth it...but vampires aren't really it. The only drawback is that you have to play like a vampire, with lots of long-term planning. But that's fun!

Closet_Skeleton
2007-01-24, 08:48 AM
Remove the Level Drain ability and you could justify dropping the LA by 2. Level Drain makes encounters way too easy even though it only works once a round. The Level Drain ability could be changed to permanent strength drain since the only reference I've currently found to vampires draining anything through touch is in Carmilla and that simply describes a vampire's grasp as draining strength not a person's experiances.


Other ways to weaken vampires would be making them easier to kill on the spot and making them take some of their abilities as feats. Possibly force them to choose a single alternate form and make them take feats to pick up others.

Thomas
2007-01-24, 04:09 PM
Curiously, RuneQuest vampires drain Power (the characteristic representing magical ability and the soul) by touch. (Their touch even passes through armor.) In fact, the 2nd/3rd edition RuneQuest vampires from the Vivamort cult description don't even bother draining blood - they don't get much out of it, and are instead sustained by the drained souls (Power). They also stole your magic if they drained you low enough.