Half half orc?

[Aolbain]

So, I've been wondering, if a half orc and a human have a child, what would you get? A prettier half orc? A orcish human? Something else?

[Jurai]

Unless otherwise specified, whatever the player wants during character creation. I'm playing an Azurin who is half-Drow by blood.

Midgame, whatever the DM pleases.

[Slipperychicken]

Such perverse mixings may have been given game statistics in the accursed Book of Erotic Fantasy. You will likely need to look yourself, for I have gazed into the depths of that unnatural tome, and having glimpsed the abominations therein, I dare not open it again.

[ShurikVch]

Usually, half-blood+pure-blood=pure-blood.

If you want, try to take Greyhawk [regional] feat Orc Blooded (Dragon #315)

[hamishspence]

In Races of Faerun I think it mentions that "half-elf" can in practice mean as little as "1/8 elf".

I'm guessing the same could apply to "half-orc".

[SinsI]

You might get Orcish bloodline, akin to Draconic bloodlines.

[Catman]

1. You get a half-orc again, which all the fluff you desire, but keep the stats.
2. You either get a half-orc or a human, 50/50 chance (I think I might have heard/read that somewhere).
3. Use the orc bloodline to a human from UA.
4. Take away the -2 Int or -2 Cha from a half-orc (I've always thought two penalties was unfair).
5. As 4, but change dark-vision to low-light vision (if you think the standard half-orc is balanced).

These are just some ideas.

[ShurikVch]

You might get Orcish bloodline, akin to Draconic bloodlines. If it about Orc Descent from Dragon #338, this feat only for sorcerers, and requred "Orc or half-orc".


3. Use the orc bloodline to a human from UA. Unfortunately, UA doesn't have an orc bloodline

[Spore]

PF Humans/Halforcs have alternate racial traits for that.

[Uncle Pine]

Technically, if we assume that reproduction in d&d works according to Mendel's incomplete dominance (which I think it's almost certainly true since human + orc = half-orc, orc + dragon = half-dragon orc, etc.), the offspring of a couple made of a half-orc and a human would either be a human or a half-orc (50% chance each).

[Seerow]

Technically, if we assume that reproduction in d&d works according to Mendel's incomplete dominance (which I think it's almost certainly true since human + orc = half-orc, orc + dragon = half-dragon orc, etc.), the offspring of a couple made of a half-orc and a human would either be a human or a half-orc (50% chance each).

I actually always went back to the basic definition of a species. That being that to be a separate species, you cannot reproduce and have viable fertile offspring.


Obviously Humans and Orcs are separate species. And we know they are capable of having offspring. And we know that those Offspring are in fact viable, not sickly or crippled (let's leave half-elves are worthless jokes out of this). So that leaves one thing keeping Humans as a separate species from Orcs: Half-Orcs are infertile. If Half-Orcs were fertile, then Humans and Orcs wouldn't actually be two separate species. By extension, Half-Elves run into the same problems. Ignoring this leads us down the path that nobody wants: Elves are Orcs.

[Scots Dragon]

I actually always went back to the basic definition of a species. That being that to be a separate species, you cannot reproduce and have viable fertile offspring.


Obviously Humans and Orcs are separate species. And we know they are capable of having offspring. And we know that those Offspring are in fact viable, not sickly or crippled (let's leave half-elves are worthless jokes out of this). So that leaves one thing keeping Humans as a separate species from Orcs: Half-Orcs are infertile. If Half-Orcs were fertile, then Humans and Orcs wouldn't actually be two separate species. By extension, Half-Elves run into the same problems. Ignoring this leads us down the path that nobody wants: Elves are Orcs.

Tolkien himself actually had that in mind as a possibility, though he later discarded it, so...

[Esprit15]

Except I'm pretty sure that half elves have been stated to have children.

[hamishspence]

I actually always went back to the basic definition of a species. That being that to be a separate species, you cannot reproduce and have viable fertile offspring.

Not all creatures currently classed as separate species fit that definition though.

Though usually "viable fertile offspring" are the exception rather than the norm when different species (and sometimes different genera) interbreed.

[(Un)Inspired]

Who would want to have kids with a half elf? Oops! I accidentally brought up the fact that they're worthless.

[Spore]

Technically, if we assume that reproduction in d&d works according to Mendel's incomplete dominance (which I think it's almost certainly true since human + orc = half-orc, orc + dragon = half-dragon orc, etc.), the offspring of a couple made of a half-orc and a human would either be a human or a half-orc (50% chance each).

You do realise that Mendel genetics are very much simplified?

[inuyasha]

Unfortunately, UA doesn't have an orc bloodline

I actually made one a while back, I might have to dig it out though

[Uncle Pine]

I actually always went back to the basic definition of a species. That being that to be a separate species, you cannot reproduce and have viable fertile offspring.

Mind that the opposite is also true. If two creatures can reproduce and have a fertile offspring, those creatures are part of the same species. Which brings us to an absurd: half-dragons are fertile. This means that if d&d were to follow our definition of species, any living, corporeal creature would be part of the same species. Thus, d&d doesn't follow Mendel's laws and I've just proven myself wrong. :smallannoyed:

By the way, as a DM I'd still rule that the offspring would either be a half-orc or a human, for simplicity's sake.

EDIT:

You do realise that Mendel genetics are very much simplified?
Yes, I do. But I'll only start to study Genetics next semester so I'm still not prepared enough to delve more than that into the fine art of slaughtering catgirls. :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Mind that the opposite is also true. If two creatures can reproduce and have a fertile offspring, those creatures are part of the same species. Which brings us to an absurd: half-dragons are fertile. This means that if d&d were to follow our definition of species, any living, corporeal creature would be part of the same species. Thus, d&d doesn't follow Mendel's laws and I've just proven myself wrong. :smallannoyed:

By the way, as a DM I'd still rule that the offspring would either be a half-orc or a human, for simplicity's sake.

I've always assumed that dragons testies and ovae contain a virus that reprograms the sex partners gamete into something draconically compatible.

[Seerow]

Mind that the opposite is also true. If two creatures can reproduce and have a fertile offspring, those creatures are part of the same species. Which brings us to an absurd: half-dragons are fertile. This means that if d&d were to follow our definition of species, any living, corporeal creature would be part of the same species. Thus, d&d doesn't follow Mendel's laws and I just proven myself wrong. :smallannoyed:

By the way, as a DM I'd still rule that the offspring would either be a half-orc or a human, for simplicity's sake.

I'm also comfortable saying half-dragons or any other half-whatevers can't breed.

Of course at that point you're starting to go against more firmly established fluff than a couple of half elves having baby in a campaign module nobody remembers, so it probably doesn't fly. Of course to reconcile this, half-dragons get to be fertile because Magic. Without Magic they are infertile. Even so, half-dragons don't beget quarter-dragons, they result in ordinary humans/elves/horses/whatever the crazy original dragon slept with. But that little bit of magic that lets the half dragons stay fertile is what seeds itself in the ordinary decendents and results in Sorcerers being born. Or something. I dunno the whole dragon/fey/demon bloodlines are all really weird and creepy if you look too closely at it.

[Uncle Pine]

But half-creatures certainly can breed: template stacking is a fact, after all. And a half-red dragon half-fiend half-minotaur half-orc, despite being made of five halves, is a perfectly legal character.

[Grim Reader]

I always thought Dragons -> Half-Dragons -> Draconic -> Dragon-blooded.

And that Humans, Orcs Ogres and Elves were a ring species.

Anyway, for the original question: Id call what you get a human with a fluff rason for low int and cha. Maybe with the ability to take the half-orc paragon class.

[Hytheter]

(which I think it's almost certainly true since human + orc = half-orc, orc + dragon = half-dragon orc, etc.)

I don't see why that would suggest Mendel's incomplete dominance. Unless you think that Orc traits are the product of a single gene. And in that case, your calculation was incorrect. The probability of offspring between a Human and a Half-Orc would be 75% human and 25% half-orc.
But it's obviously not a single gene, you can't just apply Mendelian genetics to entire Genomes, it doesn't work that way.
The offspring between a human and half-orc would be roughly 25% orc, the next generation with humans would be 12.5%, and so on.


Mind that the opposite is also true. If two creatures can reproduce and have a fertile offspring, those creatures are part of the same species. Which brings us to an absurd: half-dragons are fertile.


Isn't it explicitly stated somewhere that Dragon's are able to reproduce readily with other species because of their magical nature? I think I read that somewhere, maybe in one of those Dragon centric books like Races of? You can probably apply similar logic to Outsiders.

Either way, that still seems to leave Elves, Orcs and Humans as a single species. Unless the offspring are infertile, which doesn't appear to be the case. But that begs the question: Where are the Elf-Orcs?

Of course, the other (and likely) possibility is that DnD is a fictional setting that doesn't give two ****s about real-world biology.

[ellindsey]

Either way, that still seems to leave Elves, Orcs and Humans as a single species. Unless the offspring are infertile, which doesn't appear to be the case. But that begs the question: Where are the Elf-Orcs?


Obviously, Elves, Humans, and Orcs form a ring species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species).

[ShurikVch]

But that begs the question: Where are the Elf-Orcs? Tel-Amhothlan (orc/elf hybrid), Kingdoms of Kalamar: Friend & Foe: The Elves and Bugbears of Tellene & Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene

[(Un)Inspired]

But that begs the question: Where are the Elf-Orcs?


In fourth edition I used to joke that the other half of a half elf was orc because con was their locked primary stat fro absolutely no reason.

I said the same thing about half orcs becasue dex was their locked stat.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Uncle Pine
Technically, if we assume that reproduction in d&d works according to Mendel's incomplete dominance....

This only applies to individual genes, rather than entire organisms. Traits (the genetic kind) sort themselves like that, at least in the simpler cases, but not a full genome.


Originally Posted by Uncle Pine
If two creatures can reproduce and have a fertile offspring, those creatures are part of the same species.

This is the Biological Species Concept, which is only one of about two dozen different species concepts that have been applied in recent years. The BSC can't be applied to fossil species, for instance, so by definition it can't cover every situation that biologists and taxonomists have to work with.

.