[PF/3.5] Bardic Music without the Bard

[Nerdynick]

So I have a player that really enjoys the fluff of the Bard, and enjoys the Bardic Music idea, but is frustrated with the inefficacy of the Bard (especially in spellcasting) and the uselessness of Bardic music for her right now (currently a level 3 Sandman archetype. She doesn't get her primary ability until 5th level iirc, and gives up Inspire Courage). Honestly, what she's interested in is spellcasting (mostly illusions, but she likes blasty spells too) and the large skillset of the bard, while she is frustrated with the slow advancement (again, currently level 3). We're discussing retconning her levels (possibly via macguffin) and I was curious if the boards had anything great to suggest for a class with spellcasting (or psionics), good skills, and being reasonably effective at low-to-mid-level.

[gorfnab]

How about a Beguiler (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=363.0)?

[Seerow]

Pathfinder's Tactician might be worth a look. Lots of team support, full psionic manifesting.



As for getting bardic music specifically, I can't think of anything offhand except the one Paladin ACF, which would likely be worse than just being the Bard in every way.

[Kudaku]

The Evangelist Cleric gets bardic inspiration but the skills are... Underwhelming.

I realize it's probably unnecessary to mention it on these forums, but... Have you considered a wizard or a witch?

[Psyren]

How about a sorcerer? Say, with the Maestro (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/maestro-bloodline) bloodline to represent her musical ties?

[(Un)Inspired]

Has she thought about sticking with bard and dropping that lame archetype? Bards are pretty rad. If she wants to up the ante on her casting show her the sublime chord prestige class.

[Seerow]

Has she thought about sticking with bard and dropping that lame archetype? Bards are pretty rad. If she wants to up the ante on her casting show her the sublime chord prestige class.

They're level 3, and reportedly progressing slowly, which is causing some of the frustration. Sublime Chord doesn't come online until level 10ish iirc. Not really a solution.

[(Un)Inspired]

They're level 3, and reportedly progressing slowly, which is causing some of the frustration. Sublime Chord doesn't come online until level 10ish iirc. Not really a solution.

But dropping the archetype that's slowing down her music progression would.

[CombatOwl]

So I have a player that really enjoys the fluff of the Bard, and enjoys the Bardic Music idea, but is frustrated with the inefficacy of the Bard (especially in spellcasting) and the uselessness of Bardic music for her right now (currently a level 3 Sandman archetype. She doesn't get her primary ability until 5th level iirc, and gives up Inspire Courage). Honestly, what she's interested in is spellcasting (mostly illusions, but she likes blasty spells too) and the large skillset of the bard, while she is frustrated with the slow advancement (again, currently level 3). We're discussing retconning her levels (possibly via macguffin) and I was curious if the boards had anything great to suggest for a class with spellcasting (or psionics), good skills, and being reasonably effective at low-to-mid-level.

Those are kind of contradictory goals. You can hit any two of those criteria, but the last will suffer for it. Lots of buidls end up having good skills and spell-casting late game, but very few of them end up having that at the beginning. Inquisitor can do it, so can Beguiler, but that might not be her style.

Though AFAIK, almost none of them are better than Pathfinder Bard, which is a very strong class when played right. Pathfinder Bards are certainly way in front of Beguiler. I agree with the previous suggestion of dropping the Sandman archetype. Admittedly, Bard gets a lot better after they get swift action bardic music.

[Nerdynick]

almost none of them are better than Pathfinder Bard, which is a very strong class when played right.

So the problem with this is that she's a pretty new player (enough to roll her own attacks and level up, not so much as to understand optimization theory and party dynamics (mechanically anyway)), and Bard sort of requires a working knowledge of party dynamics.

Also, she took Sandman because 1) it sounded cool and 2) they don't have a rogue, so she was trying to fill in a little (another player who's HUGE on "party balance" and having roles filled sweet talked her into it).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So the problem with this is that she's a pretty new player (enough to roll her own attacks and level up, not so much as to understand optimization theory and party dynamics (mechanically anyway)), and Bard sort of requires a working knowledge of party dynamics.

Also, she took Sandman because 1) it sounded cool and 2) they don't have a rogue, so she was trying to fill in a little (another player who's HUGE on "party balance" and having roles filled sweet talked her into it).

I'd say sweet talk her out of Sandman is probably the easiest step you could take to advance those goals. Then, later on, if she wants to improve her spellcasting, send her into Sublime Chord (or, better still, Virtuoso 1, Sublime Chord 2 and then Virtuoso 2 till the end).

[dragonkingofthe]

Multy class into barbarian?
. . .
. . .
. . .
whats with that look? the Vikings had strong storytelling traditions, why not orks?

[Psyren]

Multy class into barbarian?
. . .
. . .
. . .
whats with that look? the Vikings had strong storytelling traditions, why not orks?

You may be interested in the upcoming Skald class from Advanced Class Guide.

[dragonkingofthe]

You may be interested in the upcoming Skald class from Advanced Class Guide.

humm, (stokes chin meaningfully, fails due to lack of goatee) I'm intrigued. Hay it might even help the OP: tell me more.

[HammeredWharf]

How about a Factotum? They get good at level 3 with Brains Over Brawn, get decent spellcasting and lots of useful tricks. Nothing blasty about them, though. She could go down the standard Chameleon route at level 6.

[Gemini476]

So the problem with this is that she's a pretty new player (enough to roll her own attacks and level up, not so much as to understand optimization theory and party dynamics (mechanically anyway)), and Bard sort of requires a working knowledge of party dynamics.

Also, she took Sandman because 1) it sounded cool and 2) they don't have a rogue, so she was trying to fill in a little (another player who's HUGE on "party balance" and having roles filled sweet talked her into it).

Trapfinding is available via a trait in Pathfinder. Rogues were nerfed pretty heavily.

Bards are also pretty good at skillmonkeying by themselves, and since cross class skills aren't as much of an issue in Pathfinder going straight Bard will probably work.

But yeah, the Beguiler is a good option. As is the Wizard, since high INT means lots of skills.

[nedz]

Human Beguiler gives you the skills and Illusion magic.

Take the Dragontouched ( Dragon Magic p18) feat and the Draconic Heritage ( Complete Arcane p77) feat. At 3rd level take Draconic Breath ( Complete Arcane p77) and you have a blast effect.

If you want the Bardic music then take Prestige Bard (Unearthed Arcana p69) if allowed. You will need 8 ranks of perform which is tricky with Beguiler but is available as a class skill with Draconic Heritage (see Races of the Dragon p102). You should take two levels of this after level 6 returning to Beguiler to pick up Shadow Conjuration via Advanced learning.

Draconic Flight is a good level 6 feat.

Beguiler gives you Trapfinding and Silent Spell, also you can take Extra Music.

Ed: Battle Dragon, Sonic breath weapon, Perform as a class skill.

[Spore]

Trapfinding is available via a trait in Pathfinder. Rogues were nerfed pretty heavily.

It is? [more than enough letters for this post to get through]

[Talya]

but is frustrated with the inefficacy of the Bard (especially in spellcasting)

Wha...? Bards are great spellcasters!


what she's interested in is spellcasting (mostly illusions, but she likes blasty spells too) and the large skillset of the bard, while she is frustrated with the slow advancement (again, currently level 3).


Okay...while the bard gets all the great illusiony stuff, it is somewhat lacking in blastiness, and if you're at level 3, Sublime Chord is a loooong way off.

Recommend PF sorcerer with the Maestro bloodline. Much bardly flavor, but full sorcerer spellcasting.

[Beowulf DW]

In PF, there are actually a few ways to get Bard-like abilities. Somebody already mentioned the Evangelist. There's also the Sensei, and the Pathfinder Chronicler PrC can do a pretty good job in that department, too.

[Psyren]

A Sound Striker can also get you plenty of blasting, especially paired with Magician.

[papr_weezl8472]

Trapfinding is available via a trait in Pathfinder. Rogues were nerfed pretty heavily.

Specifically, there is a campaign trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/mummy-s-mask/trap-finder) from Mummy's Mask that lets you disable magical traps. It doesn't grant the one-half level bonus to perception or disable device, though.

[Coidzor]

To my knowledge, the only thing that doesn't require the character to be at least 6th level is a certain interpretation (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936.0)of a certain masterwork instrument.

Heartfire Fanner(Dragon #314) is nice and all, Sublime Chord is pretty freaking sweet and all, Virtuoso's not half bad and all, Warweaver is black tactica and all, but those are prestige classes that require you to be higher level to use, and potentially necessitate stopgap feats like Chaos Music (Dragon #326) which is basically practiced spellcaster/manifester for bardic music.


Lute [String Instruments] (Complete Adventurer 126): You get +1 effective Bard level for Bardic Music. Debatably, this lets non-Bards use Inspire Courage 1/day as a Bard1. If this works, you've replaced the best part of a class with a 100G nonmagical item and 3 Perform ranks!


Also, she took Sandman because 1) it sounded cool and 2) they don't have a rogue, so she was trying to fill in a little (another player who's HUGE on "party balance" and having roles filled sweet talked her into it).

Smack this other player with a rolled up newspaper, houserule away any actual need for a rogue vis-a-vis trapfinding.


Trapfinding is available via a trait in Pathfinder. Rogues were nerfed pretty heavily.

They were, but that is not specifically a nerf to Rogues. It's fixing a glaring oversight. :smalltongue: Well, partially. Ish.

[Psyren]

Note that the Trapfinding trait is technically only available if you're doing Mummy's Mask. You need DM approval to select it anywhere else. (Actually, you need DM approval period, because it's a Campaign trait.)

[Talionis]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a

I think one of the paladins in the Web Enhancement to Champions of Valor found above has Bardic Music who close enough that many DM's might let you use it.