Let's talk about PHB Dwarfs! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

G.Cube

2014-01-20, 03:55 PM

I understand that by no means are they an optimal race, but I feel PHB Dwarves are really overlooked/under appreciated as a pretty nifty race!

Let's look at some of the things (IMO) are pretty neat, and many of them unique to the race!

A bonus to Con, -always- nice, and a negative to Cha, which is -usually- going to be a dump stat to a class you're taking advantage of the bonus to Con anyways.

Darkvision - While it's fairly easy to gain ways to navigate in the dark, this is just darn convenient to have and even works in pitch black areas

Base land speed is unburdened by armour and load weight, if you happen to have a DM who enforces the latter, this is extra cool, in either case, pretty darn useful. Unless I misunderstand, this also means that Dwarves can tumble in armour (Albeit they still receive ACPs, but hey, Mithral Breastplate exists!), nice Factotum/Warblade race, anyone?

+2 on checks to notice odd stonework, i.e. sliding doors, stonework traps, newly constructed areas, unstable terrain and buildings. Pretty nifty for those frequent dungeon delves and trips into the Underdark!

Stability - +4 bonus against trip and bull rush attempts. If you have a DM who actually makes opponents that actually use these against the PCs, this is pretty neat to have.

+2 bonus to saving throws against spells and spell like abilities.... really cool IMO.

+4 Dodge AC bonus against Giant subtype... maybe a bit specific, but that;s a fairly substantial boost in any case.

+2 to stone and metal based craft checks... nice little Artificer/Golem maker boost.

Keep in mind there are a few more minor things they get, but these are just the things I felt were pretty note-worthy.

So, I feel like PHB Dwarves don't get the attention or play time they really deserve. What does the Playground think?

BrokenChord

2014-01-20, 04:06 PM

Eonir

2014-01-20, 04:14 PM

I think dwarves are a neat race, the "drunk, stoic, bearded short angry guy" shtick is just been beaten to death.

Urpriest

2014-01-20, 04:14 PM

Dwarves are well-loved. Here's Another Gaming Comic on their merits (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247).

Kish

2014-01-20, 04:15 PM

'Course, that'd be a better case if the author hadn't confused Weapon Familiarity with Weapon Proficiency; none of the dwarven clerics should actually be proficient with their waraxes.

G.Cube

2014-01-20, 04:31 PM

Where did you get the idea that Dwarves are an un-optimized race choice? Some people prefer subraces to the straight PHB and no kinds of Dwarves work for every class, but from my knowledge Dwarves are actually pretty popular on the practical optimization side of this board, often not even falling too far short of things like humans and Dragonborn gray elves when discussing Wizard races, among other things. Sure, it's not as easy to cheese out on the theoretical side as say, a Dragonwrought Kobold, but a pretty solid race overall in most peoples' eyes; what made you think they were "underappreciated"?

To me optimization is not about making "good" choices, it's making the "best" choices you are allowed for the idea at hand. I can't think of a single -popular- build where Dwarves come out as the best choice... or even the second or third vest choice. Yes, they may be a "good" choice, but whenever I look over a handbook they always lose out to the Humans/Lesser Aasimar/Grey Elves of the game.

As for them being under-appreciated, see below.

Dwarves are well-loved. Here's Another Gaming Comic on their merits (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247).

It's interesting how much player experiences vary, then. I have been playing for over two years, and only recall ever having one person play a Dwarf. Granted, my group is low-op, and even if they weren't, this would probably be more due to fluff reasons then op reasons.

As Eonir stated, Dwarves have been horribly stereotyped for a long time.

Koury

2014-01-20, 04:58 PM

Base land speed is unburdened by armour and load weight, if you happen to have a DM who enforces the latter, this is extra cool, in either case, pretty darn useful. Unless I misunderstand, this also means that Dwarves can tumble in armour (Albeit they still receive ACPs, but hey, Mithral Breastplate exists!), nice Factotum/Warblade race, anyone?

This is replicated by a 2,000 GP magic item that is, basically, slotless. Tome of Magic, pg 77.

Suddo

2014-01-20, 05:03 PM

I know slightly off topic but I love drawfs for carrying capacity. I'm in pathfinder and my dwarf can lift like 2 ton (after a couple of potions) and I just find that hilarious.

A note too is that if you are dumping Strength the carry capacity is nice (although apparently there is an item that replicates it).

Slipperychicken

2014-01-20, 06:19 PM

Dwarf stats are generally useful. Con is great for basically anyone who likes living (assuming you didn't somehow wind up as a necropolitan dwarf), Wisdom is always welcome to boost will saves, and the encumbrance thing is amazing in a game where you're actually tracking encumbrance and enforcing penalties for it. The movement speed rarely comes up, but it makes me think twice.

I think dwarves are a neat race, the "drunk, stoic, bearded short angry guy" shtick is just been beaten to death.

This is basically the reason I haven't played a dwarf yet: Just about anyone who's actually trying to roleplay a dwarf character will wind up playing the exact same stereotype.

(Un)Inspired

2014-01-20, 06:35 PM

This is basically the reason I haven't played a dwarf yet: Just about anyone who's actually trying to roleplay a dwarf character will wind up playing the exact same stereotype.

Really? My brother in law ALWAYS plays dwarves with a TERRIBLE "scotish" accent. Basically eternally grumbling about their beards and ale. He's the only one I've ever seen act like that though.

My little brother plays an awesome Dwarf druid in pathfinder who's basically an opium addict and an eternal dreamer.

The only dwarf I've ever played was a LN cleric of Time with the time and planning domains. I played him as meticulous and swiss with a short well trimmed mustache and a courteous if brisk demeanor.

Killer Angel

2014-01-21, 07:17 AM

So, I feel like PHB Dwarves don't get the attention or play time they really deserve. What does the Playground think?

Dwarves are good, but they also have many bonuses too much situational, and what remains isn't on par with the human's bonus feat.

Now, if only Gimli had received a better treatment in lotr movies, probably dwarves would be more popular...

Thurbane

2014-01-21, 07:26 AM

This is replicated by a 2,000 GP magic item that is, basically, slotless. Tome of Magic, pg 77.
And also puts you under the automatic influence of Savnok, meaning you can never take off any armor, shield or other device that grants an AC bonus without taking -1 (cumulative) penalty on attack rolls, saving throws and checks.

Gwendol

2014-01-21, 07:58 AM

Dwarves are really good if not optimal for several builds. While the extra feat of humans is something few wants to trade away, for many practical builds dwarves are still edging ahead for various reasons. Their racial abilities are for the most part practical if not terrific. The +2 on saves vs spells or spell like effects is golden, stonecunning is generally useful, the AC bonus vs giants is generally good (there are quite a few enemies in that category) while the attack bonus vs orcs and goblinoids is meh. Stability is ok, if your DM likes to push you around a lot, if not less so.
In practice they make for good warblades, fighters, barbarians, clerics, druids, rogues (not focusing on the CHA skills), etc. For other classes there are other subraces.

HammeredWharf

2014-01-21, 08:05 AM

They're the second-best PHB race for general use, but Humans are, indeed, usually better. Their usefulness depends greatly on your class and rules, though, while Humans are universally good. I once played in a core-only game (never again!) and dwarves were actually really good in it. Core feats are pretty bad, so the +2 con and the +2 bonus to saves vs. spells help greatly.

Psyren

2014-01-21, 09:02 AM

What's to talk about? They're pretty good.

I also like the jolly, sociable Gold Dwarf (e.g. Varric from Dragon Age.)

Phaederkiel

2014-01-21, 09:29 AM

I think that, in lowlevel games, especially the Auto-search feature regarding stonework shines. Sure, the elf has this for every terrain, but most important secret doors are somewhat stone-related.

Regis_is_a_bro

2014-01-21, 09:31 AM

I've been playing an Earth Dwarf Warblade for a couple levels now. So far it's been fun, with a +2 to both str and con, hard to argue with that.:smallsmile:

Krazzman

2014-01-21, 09:36 AM

Underappreciated? Not in my groups!

I personally only played a Dwarf ONCE. Not because I don't like them but because the opportunity did not present itself.

In one one-shot I was a human fighter, after some ****ty fights reincarnated as dwarf.

My wife basically played the occasional Dwarf Barbarian every so often in our one-shot weekends.

In our new group:
The first campaign we started was an all Dwarf Campaign. Dwarf Druid (me), Dwarf Cleric, Dwarf Barbarian and Dwarf Cavalier (yes PF).

In the following campaigns we only had one dwarf so far. A dwarven fighter.

What I really disliked was the Cha penalty. In our old group this basically meant you were ugly if your score were below 9. With various degrees of ugly. And oftentimes with your low charisma... no one would listen to you.

I don't know all subraces but Gold Dwarfs with their dex penalty aren't that well for my taste too.

Also from what I know Dwarves can make good totemist/ironsould forgemasters from what I know.

Slipperychicken

2014-01-21, 09:42 AM

What I really disliked was the Cha penalty. In our old group this basically meant you were ugly if your score were below 9. With various degrees of ugly. And oftentimes with your low charisma... no one would listen to you.

Yeah, I think players and GMs vasty overstate the debilities caused by below-average stats.

Psyren

2014-01-21, 10:03 AM

Low Cha doesn't mean ugly any more than high Cha means beautiful. Here is a race of natural sorcerers with minimum Cha of 19 at adulthood. (http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060515194714/forgottenrealms/images/6/64/Phaerimm.jpg)

Cha encapsulates lots of things, and while you could probably sum them all up with "attractiveness" or "magnetism," it isn't purely physical; it also deals with qualities like confidence and personality. Granted, you could argue that physically attractive people tend to have more confidence/personality simply because they're used to subtly swaying those around them, but in those cases it is their beauty that leads to their charisma rather than the other way around.

Having said all that, your DM actually was right to roleplay that low Cha means you're less likely to get listened to. Whether low Cha does in fact translate to being physically ugly, or whether it manifests in some other form (surly/unpleasant behavior for instance, or being a timid and uncertain "shrinking violet"), any of those would translate to simply being ignored or dismissed by those around you, even unconsciously.

Andezzar

2014-01-21, 10:12 AM

And also puts you under the automatic influence of Savnok, meaning you can never take off any armor, shield or other device that grants an AC bonus without taking -1 (cumulative) penalty on attack rolls, saving throws and checks.Don't forget there is one such tooth in the universe. Good luck getting it.

Osiris

2014-01-21, 12:51 PM

Dwarves are well-loved. Here's Another Gaming Comic on their merits (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247).

Argh! You stole my link! Dwarves are pretty awesome race, but con isn't anybody's main stat IIRC, so usually you have a race that ups Int, Wis, Cha, Dex, or Str, but Dwarves are an awesome race. They're pretty good as fighters (but half-orcs get +2 strength) or Clerics (IMO, gold dwarves r better, no cha hit) but optimizers always llke races with +2 (most important stat), myself included

TL;DR usually people choose races with boosts to their class's primary stat.

EDIT

I've been playing an Earth Dwarf Warblade for a couple levels now. So far it's been fun, with a +2 to both str and con, hard to argue with that.:smallsmile:

What's this earth dwarf? What book is it in?

Gemini476

2014-01-21, 01:55 PM

Argh! You stole my link! Dwarves are pretty awesome race, but con isn't anybody's main stat IIRC, so usually you have a race that ups Int, Wis, Cha, Dex, or Str, but Dwarves are an awesome race. They're pretty good as fighters (but half-orcs get +2 strength) or Clerics (IMO, gold dwarves r better, no cha hit) but optimizers always llke races with +2 (most important stat), myself included

The Meldshaping classes and the Dragon Fire Adept both have con as a primary stat, although there are better options in that case (+6 to Con from Dragonborn Mongrelfolk, for instance.)

If you ignore invocations with saves then a Warlock can work fine as a NAD class, and I guess there's also some ways (Lost Tradition, PF's Scarred Witch Doctor) to get Con as a casting stat.

Not to mention that almost everyone has Con as at least a Tertiary stat. Everyone likes Con.

Psyren

2014-01-21, 01:56 PM

What's this earth dwarf? What book is it in?

Unearthed Arcana/SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthDwarves)

nedz

2014-01-21, 02:09 PM

This is basically the reason I haven't played a dwarf yet: Just about anyone who's actually trying to roleplay a dwarf character will wind up playing the exact same stereotype.

Close the end of a long running all Dwarf game. Didn't see too many stereotype characters, hardly at all really. Now the whole party were Dwarves and Dwarves featured a lot in the background so we had lots of Dwarven Culture. One of them even lost his beard :smallbiggrin:

The Trickster

2014-01-21, 06:09 PM

I never play them because I can't do the accent. It's petty and pretty unimportant, but it bugs me. *shrug*

Phelix-Mu

2014-01-21, 06:10 PM

I ran an all-dwarf party in 2e. Good times; the kit system from back then meant they all had a pretty distinct party role even though most of them were melee-oriented. One of my favorite characters ever started as a 2e fighter/priest dwarven Vindicator, basically a berzerker with a better Wis-score and a better chance to end the rage (back in the 2e mechanic). Really wish Vindicator had survived the 3e conversion with more of it's shine intact.

Just a couple campaigns ago I played a dwarven Runesmith, with a side of homebrewed spellfire rules. Was a great concept. A very intelligent dwarf (wizard core), he found it very difficult to relate to most people and situations emotionally, instead relying on an analytical approach. Unfortunately, real life is rarely logically consistent, or even vaguely so, and he often experienced bouts of fury during combat, the only time he really let emotions come to the surface. This became more pronounced during the course of the campaign, as he was warped by a magical dependence on spell energy (he'd taken a homebrew feat called Spellfire Metabolism) and eventually became all-but unable to relate to the rest of the party members (though he still operated on the logical precepts and principles he'd followed before, relying on old programming, so to speak).

At the end of the campaign, he was quite the freak, fueled by magical energy, glowing, carrying his big, self-forged, spellfire-linked greataxe and wearing full plate covered in smokey, umbral runes. Hehe, good times.:smallsmile:

Thurbane

2014-01-21, 08:59 PM

I never play them because I can't do the accent. It's petty and pretty unimportant, but it bugs me. *shrug*
Most people imagine Dwarves with a Scottish accent. To me, I've always pictured it as Germanic or Scandinavian...

Rubik

2014-01-21, 09:16 PM

Dwarves are well-loved. Here's Another Gaming Comic on their merits (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=247).That's not a moon gaming comic! That's a[n] space station! illustrated novella!

pbdr

2014-01-21, 11:47 PM

Really? My brother in law ALWAYS plays dwarves with a TERRIBLE "scotish" accent. Basically eternally grumbling about their beards and ale. He's the only one I've ever seen act like that though.

My little brother plays an awesome Dwarf druid in pathfinder who's basically an opium addict and an eternal dreamer.

The only dwarf I've ever played was a LN cleric of Time with the time and planning domains. I played him as meticulous and swiss with a short well trimmed mustache and a courteous if brisk demeanor.

As DM, I actually tend to play all of the core races, besides human actually, with an accent. Halflings get Russian (or eastern European), Gnomes bad french accent (actually, they're all pretty bad on my part), Elf get a uppity British accent, Dwarves actually get a thick southern redneck accent usually (but I have done a viking accent on occasion).

For the record, none of my accents are very good and are all based on TV stereotypes, but I think it actually gives a good differential feel to the various races. It does what I want.

Solophoenix

2014-01-22, 07:52 AM

Base land speed is unburdened by armour and load weight, if you happen to have a DM who enforces the latter, this is extra cool, in either case, pretty darn useful. Unless I misunderstand, this also means that Dwarves can tumble in armour (Albeit they still receive ACPs, but hey, Mithral Breastplate exists!), nice Factotum/Warblade race, anyone?

I really don't see why people list this as such a positive feature. Instead of taking a speed penalty for wearing armour, Dwarves have that speed penalty all the time.

Also, a Mithral Breastplate is light armour, being a Dwarf gives you no advantages in wearing it.

Gwendol

2014-01-22, 07:59 AM

Some things you can't do when slowed down by encumbrance or armor: tumble for example.

G.Cube

2014-01-22, 08:22 AM

I really don't see why people list this as such a positive feature. Instead of taking a speed penalty for wearing armour, Dwarves have that speed penalty all the time.

Also, a Mithral Breastplate is light armour, being a Dwarf gives you no advantages in wearing it.

It can never sink below this due to armour or load encumbrance.

Also, on the flip side, you could spend the gold you were going to buy that armour with and buy something to increase your speed, or even increase your speed for free with a Barb dip, amongst other options.

SowZ

2014-01-22, 08:38 AM

While human is the best core race, dwarves are likely second followed very closely by halflings. Outside of core, no LA, humans are still king. I'll ignore Dragonwrought kobolds. Strong heart halflings exceed dwarves as do lesser plane-touched. But dwarves are still high up there.

Solophoenix

2014-01-22, 08:47 AM

Some things you can't do when slowed down by encumbrance or armor: tumble for example.

Are there any other examples? A skill that most classes with Medium/Heavy armour proficiency don't get? And that takes a massive penalty from the armour anyway.

It can never sink below this due to armour or load encumbrance.

Also, on the flip side, you could spend the gold you were going to buy that armour with and buy something to increase your speed, or even increase your speed for free with a Barb dip, amongst other options.

You're right, it doesn't sink any lower than the minimum speed for any other Medium sized core race. This is not an advantage. Yes, you can spend gold or take levels to increase your speed, but so can all the other races. A Human with a Barb dip moves just as fast in Medium armour as a Dwarf with a Barb dip. And the human can move faster by taking the armour off.

Psyren

2014-01-22, 09:12 AM

That's not a moon gaming comic! That's a[n] space station! illustrated novella!

Every time that comic is linked in a discussion I try to get through it, but just get so put off by the godawful MS Paint art and walls of text that I'm repulsed before I even understand what the point was supposed to be.

I never play them because I can't do the accent. It's petty and pretty unimportant, but it bugs me. *shrug*

You can always play against type - there are plenty of fictional examples that do. You could be an endearing mute like Pikel Bouldershoulder, a stern fanatic like Grimgnaw, or a ladies man like Varric.

Zombulian

2014-01-22, 09:17 AM

To me optimization is not about making "good" choices, it's making the "best" choices you are allowed for the idea at hand. I can't think of a single -popular- build where Dwarves come out as the best choice... or even the second or third vest choice. Yes, they may be a "good" choice, but whenever I look over a handbook they always lose out to the Humans/Lesser Aasimar/Grey Elves of the game.

As for them being under-appreciated, see below.

The Trouserfang Dwarf and Fistbeard Beardfist beg to differ.

Gwendol

2014-01-22, 10:27 AM

Are there any other examples? A skill that most classes with Medium/Heavy armour proficiency don't get? And that takes a massive penalty from the armour anyway.

Swim, at least regarding encumbrance. Ray of Enfeeblement can drop a creatures speed to laughable due to encumbrance, or even stop them completely, but not a dwarf. It's something.

Urpriest

2014-01-22, 10:41 AM

Are there any other examples? A skill that most classes with Medium/Heavy armour proficiency don't get? And that takes a massive penalty from the armour anyway.

You don't need a lot of ranks to tumble successfully. If you can reach a total of 15 on a regular basis that's usually fine. And the better armors generally have low-ish armor check penalties anyway, Mithral Full Plate for example is -3.

Solophoenix

2014-01-22, 10:46 AM

Swim, at least regarding encumbrance. Ray of Enfeeblement can drop a creatures speed to laughable due to encumbrance, or even stop them completely, but not a dwarf. It's something.

Dwarves still suffer the exact same check penalty from encumbrance. Ray of Enfeeblement can drop a Human's speed down to 20ft minimum, even at a strength score of 1. A Dwarf is already there. The Dwarf has no advantage in either of these situations.

No matter how much weight or how many strength penalties you pile onto a human, it will have a minimum speed of 20ft. It will move at 20ft right up until it is unable to move due to exceeding its maximum load. A Dwarf has the same minimum speed, but suffers from the fact that this is also its maximum speed.

You don't need a lot of ranks to tumble successfully. If you can reach a total of 15 on a regular basis that's usually fine. And the better armors generally have low-ish armor check penalties anyway, Mithral Full Plate for example is -3.

Using the Mithral Full Plate as an example, that's 10,500gp worth of gear, so probably 8th level at least. Assuming a class like Barbarian that doesn't get Tumble as a class skill, that's a maximum of 5 ranks, minus the 3 for the check penalty. 5 ranks in Jump for a +2, and we need a Dex of 12 to get a 50/50 chance of making the check.

I'm not saying it's not an option, just that it requires a fair amount of investment, and won't start paying off til after level 10 or so. None of this has me convinced that the racial feature deserves all the praise it gets.

Agincourt

2014-01-22, 11:00 AM

Solophoenix

2014-01-22, 11:04 AM

Point of order: a character that is over the heavy load limit can only move 5 feet per round. That's likely to kick in when a character hits 1 strength. This includes dwarves too. But it is not true that 20 feet is the minimum for a human.

I did mention that it was 20ft until it exceeds its maximum load, I forgot the stage between max load and double max load where you can stagger 5ft.

Another_Poet

2014-01-22, 11:14 AM

This is replicated by a 2,000 GP magic item that is, basically, slotless. Tome of Magic, pg 77.

<at a level where this would be useful>

"Hmm, which would I rather spend 2,000 gp on, carrying more backpacks or a deflection modifier to AC?"

<at a level where 2,000 gp isn't a big deal>

"Oh, another slotless load-expanding item. Which of my golems shall I give it to?"

Sam K

2014-01-22, 01:25 PM

The PHB dwarf is the Toyota of races: reliable, accessible, wont let you down in most situations, but not terribly exciting and you dont get that many options to customize.

Humans or strongheart halflings are generally better from an optimization point of view, because their bonus feat (and skillpoints for humans) will make it easier to qualify for various PRCs. From a RP point of view, dwarves get stereotyped alot, but there are more options for them than lawful drunk with atleast 3 levels of bad scottish accent.

There are very few classes where plain dwarf is a bad choice (except the cha based ones maybe), but they are rarely the best either.

Rubik

2014-01-22, 01:25 PM

Every time that comic is linked in a discussion I try to get through it, but just get so put off by the godawful MS Paint art and walls of text that I'm repulsed before I even understand what the point was supposed to be.Ditto on all counts. I can't even get through one comic, and I have no idea how anyone could read through the entire archive.

Starbuck_II

2014-01-22, 02:01 PM

Ditto on all counts. I can't even get through one comic, and I have no idea how anyone could read through the entire archive.

I've done it and I can't wait till the next comic.
I know the original graphics weren't great, but it gets better as season went on.

Rubik

2014-01-22, 02:04 PM

I've done it and I can't wait till the next comic.
I know the original graphics weren't great, but it gets better as season went on.It's just so...artless. Not only is the artwork terrible, but it's basically pointless. Why not just release a new chapter each week (or whatever the update schedule is), since it's all just text anyway? Far less wordspamming, and maybe that way you could tell who's saying what.

Honestly, it smacks of laziness and inability to craft something functional.

Hurnn

2014-01-22, 02:06 PM

Dwarves get more racial bonuses than quite a few LA+1 races, sure some are situation but no less awesome when you get to use them.

(Un)Inspired

2014-01-22, 02:06 PM

It's just so...artless. Not only is the artwork terrible, but it's basically pointless. Why not just release a new chapter each week (or whatever the update schedule is), since it's all just text anyway? Far less wordspamming, and maybe that way you could tell who's saying what.

Honestly, it smacks of laziness and inability to craft something functional.

Just like the toyotas mentioned in an earlier post.

(Just kidding I know they're well made cars)

Koury

2014-01-22, 03:12 PM

<at a level where this would be useful>

"Hmm, which would I rather spend 2,000 gp on, carrying more backpacks or a deflection modifier to AC?"

<at a level where 2,000 gp isn't a big deal>

"Oh, another slotless load-expanding item. Which of my golems shall I give it to?"

I have a hard time thinking of a case where this isn't a useful item. But I also have Tumble on every character I make, so I'm biased. Cleric, Sorc and Wiz are the only classes in core that can't get Tumble. Everyone else either starts with it or can trade out Ride.

This also really has nothing to do with Dwarves specifically. Just anyone who uses Heavy/Med armor and likes mobility.

And at what level are golems free for everyone but 2000 gp is a notable expense?