Magnus Ruling

[GameMasterUdez]

Hey guys I could really use some help here. I am running a pirate campaign based on the Pathfinder World and one of my players wants to play a Magnus which I really like.

So here is the deal, the players rolled a character with a 16 Str, 15 Dex, 12 Con, 16 Int, 10 Wis, and 10 Cha - Yes he had the best rolls I have ever seen.

He is playing a Human with the Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defense feats. Now he has reached Level 2 and is wielding a Cutlass and a Boarding Axe. I ruled that he can make an attack with the Cutlass empowered with Shocking Grasp +1 (BAB +1 and Str Mod +2... -2 for Dual Wielding) and he can make an attack with the Boarding Axe for +1 (BAB +1 and Str +2 ... -2 for Dual Wielding).

My player thinks he can make three attacks. The first one from the Cutlass with Shocking Grasp for a -1 (BAB +1 and Str Mod +2... -2 for Dual Wielding and -2 for Spellstrike), then another attack from his Cutlass -1 (BAB +1 and Str Mod +2 ... -2 for Dual Wielding and -2 for Spellstrike) and then make an attack from his Boarding Axe +1 (BAB +1 and +2 Str Mod ... -2 for Dual Wielding).

What does anyone think?

[Rhynn]

Where is the second cutlass attack even supposed to be coming from? I am lost. Empowering a weapon with a spell doesn't grant you an extra attack.

Also, I assume you mean the Magus class (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spellcasters/magus.html)? "Magnus" is a name derived from Latin and means "great" ... "magus" means a magician or sorcerer (Latin, from the Greek magos).

[GameMasterUdez]

Yes I am talking about the Magus Class, my apologies.

Spell Combat
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Spellstrike (Su)
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier. See FAQ/Errata at right for more information.

So the second Cutlass attack comes from Spellstrike in Combination with Spell Combat. So rather then Cutlass and Touch, you can attack Cutlass and Cutlass charged with a spell. At least that is what I read on an earlier forum. My question is what happens in the PC is holding a second melee weapon.

[Rhynn]

He needs to have a hand free to cast the spell (as per Spell Combat), which presumably takes a standard action, so he can't be wielding two weapons.

Wielding just a cutlass (no second weapon), the Magus could either:
1. Use Spell Combat to attack with cutlass at -2 and cast shocking grasp and make a free attack with the cutlass to channel the shocking grasp (replacing the touch attack that is part of casting shocking grasp). This is a full-round action, as per Spell Combat.
2. Just use Spellstrike to cast a shocking grasp and channel it with a free cutlass attack. This is a standard action (as per shocking grasp) unless you somehow make casting the spell another type of action.

It's a bit unclear to me whether the free attack in 1. should be at -2; GM ruling required there.

As far as I can tell, the Magus can't cast shocking grasp at all while wielding two weapons, because shocking grasp's somatic component requires a free hand, unless he's got feat similar to Somatic Weaponry from D&D 3.5's Complete Mage... in which case, go figure what would happen!

Edit: Also, Spell Combat doesn't care about somatic components, you need a free hand anyway, so there you go...

[Beleriphon]

Spellstrike (Su)
At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier. See FAQ/Errata at right for more information.

It sounds like he gets to cast a spell and as part of that action also gets to deal his weapon damage. So no, there shouldn't be a third attack in there.

[GameMasterUdez]

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.

Okay so no Dual Wielding is out, I will tell my player, but this still confuses me.

So this clearly states that the Magus can make a free melee attack as part of casting the spell.

So Tyreale (the PC) makes an attack with his Cutlass. Then he goes to cast Shocking Grasp (as Spell Combat allows) and instead of it being a "Touch Attack" he can make a free melee attack with his Cutlass as part of the Shocking Grasp spell. So his Melee Attack is a +1 to hit Cutlass Attack, and his second attack is a +1 Cutlass Attack that includes the damage of Shocking Grasp.

Correct?

[Beleriphon]

So Tyreale (the PC) makes an attack with his Cutlass. Then he goes to cast Shocking Grasp (as Spell Combat allows) and instead of it being a "Touch Attack" he can make a free melee attack with his Cutlass as part of the Shocking Grasp spell. So his Melee Attack is a +1 to hit Cutlass Attack, and his second attack is a +1 Cutlass Attack that includes the damage of Shocking Grasp.

Correct?

What he's actually doing is making a melee touch spell attack. In addition to the spell he gets to use his melee weapon attack. Remember you can cast a spell or you can make a melee weapon attack. The magus gets to combine those two separate actions into a single attack.

[Rhynn]

So Tyreale (the PC) makes an attack with his Cutlass. Then he goes to cast Shocking Grasp (as Spell Combat allows) and instead of it being a "Touch Attack" he can make a free melee attack with his Cutlass as part of the Shocking Grasp spell. So his Melee Attack is a +1 to hit Cutlass Attack, and his second attack is a +1 Cutlass Attack that includes the damage of Shocking Grasp.

Correct?

Correct.

As a full-round action using Spell Combat and Spellstrike, with one hand free, the Magus can make a full attack with a weapon (in this case, a single attack) at -2 (in this case, total attack bonus +1), and cast a standard action spell (Spell Combat) with a range of Touch which is channeled through a melee attack with the weapon (Spellstrike) instead of a touch attack.

For consistency's sake, I would apply the same -2 penalty to the Spellstrike attack (so total attack bonus +1).

Alternatively, just using Spellstrike, the Magus can use a standard action to cast a Touch range spell and channel it through a melee attack with the weapon, with no penalty to hit (total bonus +3 in this case).

[GameMasterUdez]

See that does not make sense to me,

Spell Combat
At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast.

According to Spell Combat you can make a Melee attack and a Free Touch attack just like Dual Wielding hence the -2 to hit on both.

Spellstrike
Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.

So essentially you Slice with a Sword, then Charge the Spell in your hands and slice again, all as part of a Full Round Action, meaning no moving.

Honestly if that were not the case why would anyone ever use Spellstrike. You can either make a Melee Attack and a second Touch attack each dealing seperate damage OR You can charge you weapon and make one melee attack and try to deal both sets of damage at the same time?

[GameMasterUdez]

Correct.

As a full-round action using Spell Combat and Spellstrike, with one hand free, the Magus can make a full attack with a weapon (in this case, a single attack) at -2 (in this case, total attack bonus +1), and cast a standard action spell (Spell Combat) with a range of Touch which is channeled through a melee attack with the weapon (Spellstrike) instead of a touch attack.

For consistency's sake, I would apply the same -2 penalty to the Spellstrike attack (so total attack bonus +1).

Alternatively, just using Spellstrike, the Magus can use a standard action to cast a Touch range spell and channel it through a melee attack with the weapon, with no penalty to hit (total bonus +3 in this case).

Perfect Rhynn that was my next question. So either 2 attacks with the cutlass at -2 (1 charged with the spell) or one attack at +3 charaged with a spell. Perfection!

[Rhynn]

Yeah, the options are basically:

Spell Combat alone: full-round action, -2 penalty to hit, weapon attack, touch attack to deliver spell.

Spell Combat & Spellstrike: full-round action, -2 penalty to hit, weapon attack, weapon attack to deliver spell.

Spellstrike alone: standard action, no penalty to hit, weapon attack to deliver spell.

Spell Combat means no movement and not as good of a chance to hit. Note that not using Spellstrike can be a good tactical choice sometimes, because you may want to use a touch attack to hit something with great AC but lousy touch AC (like a dragon).

Edit: Incidentally, shocking grasp is a pretty good choice here, since you get +3 to hit opponents in metal armor. I don't see any reason it wouldn't apply to the Spellstrike attack to deliver the spell.

[Fiery Diamond]

And here I was wondering what Baten Kaitos had to do with pathfinder.

...

:smalltongue: