Who's dungeon Shenanigans? You call it

[Donny_Green]

In a dungeon crawl, playing a gnome beguiler.

A certain scenario played out, and I'm wondering if maybe it shouldn't have gone differently.

My little gnome was standing at the intersection of a large (4 squares across) hall way, and a smaller (2 sq) hall way. My gnome was in the larger hallway, and the rest of the group was waiting about 6 to 10 squares away.

The GM reports that I see and hear a large triceratops stomping through the smaller hall way, and heading my way.

I react by casting a silent image spell in the form of a wall consistent with the worked stone around us. This went across the threshold, were the two hall ways meet. (My plan was, let the stupid beast think there's no hallway here and it'll pass by and take the next turn)

The GM, reacts by saying.... "The Triceratops still heard you so it's still coming after you." (This alone had me going WTF? :smallconfused:)

So I tell the GM that to the best of my knowledge, once the creature interacts with the illusion it's given a will save to go through it.

The GM rolled an 18 on the die, and the rest was a matter of me retreating out, the meat shields coming in, and the creature eventually dying.

Still I think there's quite a bit of shenanigans going on here.

Is the Tri allowed to make a will save?

Should it have even reacted violently?

Does the silent image spell, made to look like a solid object also act like a solid object to the unsuspecting? (I.E. the an illusion of the wall have the hardness of a wall for people who don't disbelieve?)

What's the playground think? What do you all know?

[Irk]

if it was interacted with, the triceratops would have gotten a will save. Based on your description, it didn't seem like the dinosaur was examining your illusion, so I would assume it would have just turned as you originally suspected. Then again, I do not have much experience with that specific spell.

[Emperor Tippy]

A Triceratops has scent. I would likely count it as enough basis to question the illusion and it then made the Will save to disbelieve.

[Deophaun]

Does the silent image spell, made to look like a solid object also act like a solid object to the unsuspecting? (I.E. the an illusion of the wall have the hardness of a wall for people who don't disbelieve?)
Absolutely not.

Silent image is a figment. There are specific rules for them, and one that's painfully absent is that figments are not mind-affecting. They are precisely as real as a hologram. If you fail to disbelieve an illusory (figment) wall, but someone toss you into one, you will fly through it. If you fail to disbelieve an illusory (figment) chair, and try to sit in it, you will fall on your ass.

Now, as for the triceratops, it basically has no opportunity for a Will save in this instance. Interaction with an illusion is more than seeing/hearing it. It's study, either as a standard action Spot/Listen check, or as part of another action (trying to talk to a ghost sound, using Disable Device on an illusory trap, etc). And, as soon as the triceratops "impacted" the illusion, that would constitute proof that the illusion did not exist, and so it's an autopass.

But the triceratops shouldn't have done that. It should have been confused by the wall at least, and then, maybe, gotten a Spot/Listen check. Sure, it's a dumb beast, but dumb beasts are entitled to try to figure out where sounds are coming from. But failing it's Will save, it would not be able to say "screw it, there's probably magic here, I'm running into walls just in case," because it is a dumb animal. Your DM is guilty of metagaming.

[kirbsys]

Sounds like DM shenanigans to me. I mean, there are certainly ways that the Tri would have gone for it, but it seems to me like the DM didn't want the encounter being bypassed without combat so he went with what he did.

[Jack_Simth]

What's the playground think? What do you all know?

Short answer is illusions are poorly defined in D&D. The beast could certainly have heard you casting (verbal components require a 'Strong Voice', so trivial DC), and might have gotten curious enough to examine the walls, however...

Touching the illusion would be a case of auto-disbelieve (Silent Image doesn't do tactile illusions, so any touch gives proof it's not real). If it brushed up against the wall at all, it would know (and given that a standard Triceratops (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#triceratops) is Huge, that's a given in a two square (ten foot wide) hallway - unless, of course, you're using ten foot squares in that scenario). It has no hardness (well, unless you're a Shadowcraft mage pumping it up and duplicating Wall of Stone or some such).

Interaction, in terms of illusion saves, is poorly defined. If the beast had gone this way before, and was familiar with it, the beast stopping to examine the wall in detail makes sense (any change to a familiar environment is cause for concern for any animal, especially an herbivore, as they're prey beasts).

[Rhynn]

A Triceratops has scent. I would likely count it as enough basis to question the illusion and it then made the Will save to disbelieve.

Hearing seems fine to me, too. Who even knows how good a triceratops' sight is? Rhinos are ornery because they can't really see too well, and tend to attack anything that makes enough noise or smells wrong, basically.

I probably would've run it different, but the DM didn't really need to pull much anything out of his pants-seat.


So I tell the GM that to the best of my knowledge, once the creature interacts with the illusion it's given a will save to go through it.

You mean "see through it", right? Illusions are not real - you can stick your hand through an illusory wall, on purpose or on accident (like if you tried to lean on one).


Does the silent image spell, made to look like a solid object also act like a solid object to the unsuspecting? (I.E. the an illusion of the wall have the hardness of a wall for people who don't disbelieve?)

No, just no.


Silent Image (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsS.html#silent-image)
Illusion (Figment)
[...]
This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. The illusion does not create sound, smell, texture, or temperature. You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect.


Illusion (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/magicSchools.html#illusion)
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

A figment illusion can, at best, have texture (handy for illusion disguises), but that wouln't actually stop someone from sticking a hand through it.

[Donny_Green]

This is becoming more an more a very useful post to me.

I'd like to ask another question.

When confronted with the illusion, how should the beast have acted?

[Rhynn]

When confronted with the illusion, how should the beast have acted?

Well, like Jack_Simth pointed out, the triceratops would probably have accidentally hit the wall (since a Huge creature has to squeeze into a 10-ft. wide corridor) on passing it and gotten a Will save. It would also have smelled you, and might have heard you, and could have tried to e.g. give the wall a nudge with its horns, giving it a save. In any case, upon noticing the wall posed no physical obstacle, it would probably have followed its Scent and gone through the wall.

Illusions can work nicely on stupid beasts, but sometimes they work better on creatures clever enough to out-think themselves.