Tippyverse(Arcane) VS Tippyverse(Psionics)

[Xar Zarath]

Just as the thread says-(I was thinking specific classes, but decided to go on a general basis)

Who would win? (Setting can be either 3.5 or PF)

[Zweisteine]

Arcane trumps psionics every time, if only because there is so much more material to work with.

Though your question is a bit unclear. Is it asking if Whch Tippyverse-style character would win, who would win if there was a arcane cs psionics war in The Tippyverse, who would win if there was a war between arcane and psionic versions of the Tippyverse, or something else entirely?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Just as the thread says-(I was thinking specific classes, but decided to go on a general basis)

Who would win? (Setting can be either 3.5 or PF)

So... "Wizard vs. X" arguments almost always disintegrate into "No way of telling/matter of luck", assuming X is either T1 or a strong T2. Building an entire univers out of them...

I'm gonna call it for "Everyone loses, result is determined by luck and the vagaries of non-zero-sum game theory."

[Somensjev]

depends on what stp erudites get :smallwink:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meh. At that level of optimization, wizards and psions can both get access to every spell and power they want.

[Emperor Tippy]

At maximum non pun-pun native class ability optimization Psionics wins.

[BrokenChord]

At maximum non pun-pun native class ability optimization Psionics wins.

Tippy has spoken, thread won, ten words ten words.

EDIT: Though in all actuality, I expected him to say Arcane... Must be the StPs. We really need to cure those... Wait, wrong abbreviation...

Care to explain the reasoning, Tipperz?

[Somensjev]

At maximum non pun-pun native class ability optimization Psionics wins.

could you expand on that answer? (mostly because i'd love to see how you'd do it) :smallbiggrin:

[Kennisiou]

At maximum non pun-pun native class ability optimization Psionics wins.
Tippy has spoken, thread won, ten words ten words.


I really want to sig this.

Also, StP erudites are basically better wizards while wizards don't get as easy access to psionic powers, if they can get access at all.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

could you expand on that answer? (mostly because i'd love to see how you'd do it) :smallbiggrin:

Damnit, man, we'd actually had a fully resolved thread! Do you know how rare that is?

Edit: Stupid side Note:

I don't actually see how Erudites are better than Psions. They can't get as high-level powers, and they have to pay XP for the powers they can get - Psions, meanwhile, can spend that XP on psychic reformation, thus getting them the same level of access-to-every-power, only at 0 monetary cost and ten minute's notice. I don't even think they'd need to use as much XP, in the long run, because they could just take a standard set of versatile, powerful spells and reform on the rare occasions they needed something else - whereas the Erudite needs to burn it for every spell they want to learn.

[Kazyan]

could you expand on that answer? (mostly because i'd love to see how you'd do it) :smallbiggrin:

From what I can tell, it's basically that Psionics have PP recharge and access to all of the Wizard's tricks, plus they don't have to deal with material components and stuff.

I think there's a way to get Magic Mantle as a feat with lots of trickery, so a Magic Mantle Sorcerer receiving Psychic Chirurgery and Psychic Reformation treatment could be a monkey wrench in what argument, but then, Sorcerers can't really "recharge" their highest-level spell slots, not can they ignore material components. Unless you loop a spell through StP Erudite and then give it back to the Sorcerer after it's been processed, but then, I'm not sure that actually works.

[BrokenChord]

I really want to sig this.

Also, StP erudites are basically better wizards while wizards don't get as easy access to psionic powers, if they can get access at all.

Be my guest. It would honor me greatly to have my first sigged post :smallbiggrin:

[Somensjev]

Damnit, man, we'd actually had a fully resolved thread! Do you know how rare that is?

Edit: Stupid side Note:

I don't actually see how Erudites are better than Psions. They can't get as high-level powers, and they have to pay XP for the powers they can get - Psions, meanwhile, can spend that XP on psychic reformation, thus getting them the same level of access-to-every-power, only at 0 monetary cost and ten minute's notice. I don't even think they'd need to use as much XP, in the long run, because they could just take a standard set of versatile, powerful spells and reform on the rare occasions they needed something else - whereas the Erudite needs to burn it for every spell they want to learn.

not normal erudites, spell-to-power erudites, they not only get all powers, they also get all arcane spells, and there's a plethora of ways for them to get all divine spells too

[Zweisteine]

At maximum non pun-pun native class ability optimization Psionics wins.

I assume "native class ability optimization" means no PrCs?

Because in the end, an Arcane caster can learn as many spells as a StP Erudite. Don't forget that the Rainbow Servants serve the arcane side, and thus arcane caters also get revivification, etc.

Sure StPs are better than wizards as a base class, but PrCs fix that, probably. Rainbow Servant gets the wizards cleric spells, which leaves very few behind. Also, if you go to a more extreme level, wizards have greater access to magc items, as many items with unique-ish effects.


My question: what if you bring in the divine casters too?

[Kraken]

The thing is, in addition to learning all spells, a stp erudite can learn all powers. Then, using this power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm), those spells, because they are now powers, can be passed on to other psions. So you can get a psion that knows all spells and powers, and can cast them all spontaneously, because regular spied don't have the unique powers/day limit.

Even without that stp, psionic powers introduce a lot of exploits that simply don't exist with arcane/divine spells, so even if you want to just take a straight psion that learns all powers via the aforementioned power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm), which is clearly and unambiguously legal, I wouldn't be ready to hand spells the crown over powers, because while the total number of different exploits that psionics are capable of is fewer, what they lack in quantity, they more than make up for in efficacy.

[Nightraiderx]

Psionics can break the action economy, always go first. (Sychronicity, Time Mantle)
Psionics can use multiple powers at once with Schism, Linked Power
With Temporal Reiteration, All psionic buff spells can last as long as the psion needs them.
Psionics can have all powers as supernatural abilities (no xp wish and other things)
Psionics can heal itself much easier, Psionics can use any power they know spontaneously and at as much power as needed.
Psionics has ways to regenerate it's power points.
Psionics can teach each other their powers with little monetary effort.
Psionics can also pool their resources in combination better.

[Psyren]

could you expand on that answer? (mostly because i'd love to see how you'd do it) :smallbiggrin:

As Kraken explained, the summary is basically that a psion can learn all spells and powers more easily than a wizard can learn all powers and spells. He then has native advantages like all of his "spells" being purely mental actions, which means he can cast them without components, from his schism, while shapeshifted into a sandwich etc.

Getting 9th-level spells pre-epic is tricky though unless you're chummy with an epic erudite.

[Somensjev]

As Kraken explained, the summary is basically that a psion can learn all spells and powers more easily than a wizard can learn all powers and spells. He then has native advantages like all of his "spells" being purely mental actions, which means he can cast them without components, from his schism, while shapeshifted into a sandwich etc.

Getting 9th-level spells pre-epic is tricky though unless you're chummy with an epic erudite.

all it takes is one erudite to give all his friends his powers, then they give them to their friends, etc, etc, eventually every psion knows every power, and then where would you be?

you might walk along a beach with 50 psions posing as different objects, then when you get too close who knows what might happen to you :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

you might walk along a beach with 50 psions posing as different objects, then when you get too close who knows what might happen to you :smallbiggrin:

This is probably what led to the Abysm vestige :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Though Arcane Genesis is much more powerful than Psionic Genesis, since the latter explicitly bans time manipulation and other planar traits.

[HaikenEdge]

As Kraken explained, the summary is basically that a psion can learn all spells and powers more easily than a wizard can learn all powers and spells. He then has native advantages like all of his "spells" being purely mental actions, which means he can cast them without components, from his schism, while shapeshifted into a sandwich etc.

Getting 9th-level spells pre-epic is tricky though unless you're chummy with an epic erudite.

Isn't the trick there to have the epic version of yourself teleport through time back and teach you all the powers via Psychic Chirurgery?

[Psyren]

Though Arcane Genesis is much more powerful than Psionic Genesis, since the latter explicitly bans time manipulation and other planar traits.

The idea is that an erudite (and therefore psion) can learn both versions.

[Vaz]

Psionics learn Powers by Expanded Knowledge. All Divine Spells can be learned as Arcane through Wyrm Wizard, all Arcane can be learned as Powers by Spell to Power Erudite.

Linked Power manifests all powers XP-free and reduces casting time to 2 rounds, even on 10 minute castings etc.

Incarnum feats allows infinite PP tricks.

Free Dark Chuffle every spell known in existence into your 'powers known'. As well as combat feats.

Body Outside Body doesn't allow Spellcasting, but Psionics is allowed. Clones generate clones generate clones.

Only thing that Psionics can't do effectively is Persist its powers. But it has Infinite PP generation, so who cares?

[Psyren]

Isn't the trick there to have the epic version of yourself teleport through time back and teach you all the powers via Psychic Chirurgery?

That's another way, yeah. I think there's also a trick involving an enslaved (or ice assassin'd) Gem Dragon and Epic Manifestation.

[Nightraiderx]

Psionics learn Powers by Expanded Knowledge. All Divine Spells can be learned as Arcane through Wyrm Wizard, all Arcane can be learned as Powers by Spell to Power Erudite.

Linked Power manifests all powers XP-free and reduces casting time to 2 rounds, even on 10 minute castings etc.

Incarnum feats allows infinite PP tricks.

Free Dark Chuffle every spell known in existence into your 'powers known'. As well as combat feats.

Body Outside Body doesn't allow Spellcasting, but Psionics is allowed. Clones generate clones generate clones.

Only thing that Psionics can't do effectively is Persist its powers. But it has Infinite PP generation, so who cares?

Temporal Reiteration 5th lvl power.

Also with opportunity power, once those object psion touches you, prepare for SOD.

[HaikenEdge]

I'm not familiar with it, so I must ask, where is infinite power points coming from? I assume it's not Font of Inspiration.

[Snowbluff]

Tippy has spoken, thread won, ten words ten words.

Care to explain the reasoning, Tipperz?
Anyone could have told you that. :smalltongue:

STP, and the regular Psions are reforming to keep full lists. People keep telling me psionics isn't broken, but you heard it from the big hat himself.

[Somensjev]

Psionics learn Powers by Expanded Knowledge. All Divine Spells can be learned as Arcane through Wyrm Wizard, all Arcane can be learned as Powers by Spell to Power Erudite.

Linked Power manifests all powers XP-free and reduces casting time to 2 rounds, even on 10 minute castings etc.

Incarnum feats allows infinite PP tricks.

Free Dark Chuffle every spell known in existence into your 'powers known'. As well as combat feats.

Body Outside Body doesn't allow Spellcasting, but Psionics is allowed. Clones generate clones generate clones.

Only thing that Psionics can't do effectively is Persist its powers. But it has Infinite PP generation, so who cares?

i'm sorry, but DARK CHUFFLE :smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

Oh, and Sense Danger; always act in a Surprise Round with an Immediate Action, Anticipatory Strike for Immediate Action to take a Standard action, Synchronicity Combo, X with Teleport Through Time. Linked power ignores the annoying Material Cost for that as well (I think the Erudites ability to do so is tied to the class not the power).

Anything happens you don't like, enemy is punted 1000 years into the future. Time Hop on steroids.

[Psyren]

"Broken" is a really overused word in this community. Truenamer is broken, i.e. it needs to be fixed/patched to work. Psionics is breakable, but functions perfectly fine out of the box.

[Krazzman]

As proven already in this thread if they would clash: Emperor Tippy would win.

But I would've said Psionics too due to the fact that they get some things automatically that wizards have to pay a hefty feat tax for. In no way I am able to speak of anything highlevel (be it level or optimisation) but would say this due to my gut-feeling.

[Psyren]

Without Erudites though arcane is ahead. There are several very powerful effects that psionics has a lot of trouble doing, most notably binding outsiders and necromancy. (Metamorphic Transfer bridges a lot of those gaps however.)

[Snowbluff]

Without Erudites though arcane is ahead.
Tell that to Tippy. :smalltongue:

Anyway, you are right about the overuse of the word "broken." When I'm talking about Psionics, I mean it in the same sense as I talk about spellcasting, with a few stipulations. Out of the box, casters generally an issue. When more work is put into them, they can be quite disruptive.

[Psyren]

Tell that to Tippy. :smalltongue:

His evaluation depends on erudites (specifically, the CStP variant) existing at some point in the process, because psions cannot convert spells into powers on their own. I happen to agree with his assessment, but I still know where the lynchpins are.

It's similar to how Pun-Pun relies on Sarrukhs existing.

[Somensjev]

well, in tippy's defence, you don't need an STP erudite to become overpowered, level 1 punpun is psionic, and he's not an erudite at all :smallwink:

however, if we don't go full punpun then stp erudites greatly help the psions, but they aren't necessary, they're just the icing on the cake

[Psyren]

well, in tippy's defence, you don't need an STP erudite to become overpowered, level 1 punpun is psionic, and he's not an erudite at all :smallwink:

Yon emperor already removed Pun-Pun from the equation :smalltongue:

[HaikenEdge]

well, in tippy's defence, you don't need an STP erudite to become overpowered, level 1 punpun is psionic, and he's not an erudite at all :smallwink:

Slightly off topic, but my original 1st level version was psionic only because I didn't believe you could Take 10 on Knowledge checks, but once that can of worms was opened, Pun-Pun became just any 1st level Good character, though generally a paladin.

[Snowbluff]

His evaluation depends on erudites (specifically, the CStP variant) existing at some point in the process, because psions cannot convert spells into powers on their own. I happen to agree with his assessment, but I still know where the lynchpins are.

It's similar to how Pun-Pun relies on Sarrukhs existing.

Well, the first lynchpin would be the reformation assumption, which he would consider to put psions on par, IIRC. I had a long argument with him about this.

[Psyren]

Well, the first lynchpin would be the reformation assumption, which he would consider to put psions on par, IIRC. I had a long argument with him about this.

Which assumption is that? Reformation speeds up the process but I don't see it as being required. You don't even necessarily need Chirurgery.

[Nightraiderx]

I thought another assumption was whether supernatural transformation applied
to psionic powers? I would personally pick an ardent over a psion though due to their 10th lvl ideal for metapsionic abuse from time mantle, synchronicity and other powers.

What spell effects can psionic not copy anyways to give a distinct edge?

[Psyren]

You don't need Su Transformation either, that's just an added bonus (if you agree with that interpretation.)

Psionics can copy any spell effect with enough optimization as Tippy stated.

[Snowbluff]

Which assumption is that? Reformation speeds up the process but I don't see it as being required. You don't even necessarily need Chirurgery.
The idea is that every psion is assumed to have the ability to manifest the entire psion list, most through Psionic Reformation. It's not required, but it is the assumption for every Tippy psion. It's probably accounts for a vast majority of replicating wizard effects through combinations of powers.

[Psyren]

The idea is that every psion is assumed to have the ability to manifest the entire psion list. It's not required, but it is the assumption for every Tippy psion.

Ah! Thing is, you don't need reformation for that - chirurgery-sharing (or fusion-seeding) works on ordinary psion powers just as easily as it does on the StP converted ones.

(Sorry, replied before your edit)

[Snowbluff]

Ah! Thing is, you don't need reformation for that - chirurgery-sharing (or fusion-seeding) works on ordinary psion powers just as easily as it does on the StP converted ones.

(Sorry, replied before your edit)Yeah, I looked it. Neat. I give bonus points for doing things by yourself and with minimal actions, so Reformation would be my preferred method.

(That's fine.)

[sideswipe]

even without any optimisation psionics comes out on top. they may not have the ability to add spells to their list like wizards but the manifestations they learn can be altered and empowered by their very nature.

and it is only wizards that can be broken that easily with optimisation. other classes like sorcerer find it incredibly difficult to add spells known without cheese optimisation.

second point. whereas the base wizard can only cast his highest level of spells prepared (again, without optimisation) and less than a handful of times per day, the psion can pump all of his power points into his highest level manifestations each day. usually allowing him to use his highest level manifestations around 10 times per day, any known, and spontaneously at any time with no components.
whereas some of the psionic powers are slightly inferior to the wizards spells they have augmentation, allowing essentially a free form of meta psionics imbued within the system before adding meta psionics.

when you get a little bit of optimisation it is easy for psions to add meta psionics freely to powers (at least low level powers) with over channel and talented in conjunction with psionic focus. (and feats to speed that up). this adds a few power points.

whereas arcane in low ish OP have to use higher level spell slots (averaging out to a higher cost than the few power points) or only being able to do it cheap with sudden meta magic once or twice a day. and using wizards you must pre prepare the ordinary meta magics.

so even at low OP i would say that although arcane casters have wizards, which are more versitile. the psionics have more options to power their manifestations past the point of arcane.

when you start adding high level optimisation it really no longer matters in a fight. its about who can gain the first advantage. and who has more versatility. in very high OP psionics are more versatile. As tippy has stated - gaining easier access to all spells and powers. then the wizard does.

and for a start psionics are much cooler.
whereas a wizard is typically a batty old man reading a book and trying to memorise a chant and a squiggly hand movement, the Psion is a guy who looks at you, his eyes glow (or some other sign) and then your head explodes! (cranial deluge). And prepare their spells by taking a quick deep breath in the morning.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I looked it. Neat. I give bonus points for doing things by yourself and with minimal actions, so Reformation would be my preferred method.

(That's fine.)

Well if it's your future self teaching you via Teleport Through Time, technically you are doing it by yourself :smallbiggrin:



and for a start psionics are much cooler.
whereas a wizard is typically a batty old man reading a book and trying to memorise a chant and a squiggly hand movement, the Psion is a guy who looks at you, his eyes glow (or some other sign) and then your head explodes! (cranial deluge). And prepare their spells by taking a quick deep breath in the morning.

And if he suppresses his displays there isn't even a glow.

[Snowbluff]

Dammit, Psyren! We posted out of order again. Teleporting Through Time to yourself is a loophole. XD

The best part of the signs are the audio ones. I usually fluff an unearthly screech so everyone knows something is happening. Too bad I usually suppress the signs.



and for a start psionics are much cooler.
whereas a wizard is typically a batty old man reading a book and trying to memorise a chant and a squiggly hand movement, the Psion is a guy who looks at you, his eyes glow (or some other sign) and then your head explodes! (cranial deluge). And prepare their spells by taking a quick deep breath in the morning.

Veritably false. Nothing is cooler than Simulacrum, Mindrape, and Ice Assassin. :smalltongue:

As for supernatural transformation... yeah... Sometimes the rules put in things that shouldn't need be there, like how all manifesting powers are actually PLAs. It's really a throw away line, and is only relevant in a few cases. I am not entirely sure what the writers were thinking. *shrugs*

[Rubik]

As for supernatural transformation... yeah... Sometimes the rules put in things that shouldn't need be there, like how all manifesting powers are actually PLAs. It's really a throw away line, and is only relevant in a few cases. I am not entirely sure what the writers were thinking. *shrugs*Pretty sure they did that because you can technically grab spellcasting through the Polymorph line, since spellcasting defaults to either an (Ex) or (Na) attack, both of which Polymorph can give you.

[Emperor Tippy]

If Spell to Power Erudite's never exist (and thus spells can't be turned into powers) then Wizards win.

At least until you start the infinite power Fusion + Astral Seed loop.

Psions win because they can get every arcane and divine spell as a power known along with every psionic power, ignore material components for all of that, have unlimited PP, can manifest it all as purely mental actions, and can (in the absolute worst case. cast any of those spells or powers using just a full round and a standard action).

Without access to the wizard spell list however, Psions don't beat Wizards.

[Rubik]

If Spell to Power Erudite's never exist (and thus spells can't be turned into powers) then Wizards win.

At least until you start the infinite power Fusion + Astral Seed loop.

Psions win because they can get every arcane and divine spell as a power known along with every psionic power, ignore material components for all of that, have unlimited PP, can manifest it all as purely mental actions, and can (in the absolute worst case. cast any of those spells or powers using just a full round and a standard action).

Without access to the wizard spell list however, Psions don't beat Wizards.I agree with this entirely.

Psions can pull some serious stuff out of their...portable...holes...but wizard spells beat everything but epic spells for sheer punch.

[Snowbluff]

Pretty sure they did that because you can technically grab spellcasting through the Polymorph line, since spellcasting defaults to either an (Ex) or (Na) attack, both of which Polymorph can give you.

It really needed a separate classification if that was the case and they wanted to avoid that sort of unintended consequences. Hindsight is 20/10, I guess.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wizard spells do beat the psion power list, obviously. They outnumber the power list like 20-to-1, I bet (haven't checked).

And, on this point, let me claim metagame bias.

1.) Assume a world with equal distribution of psions and wizards (or more broadly, any arcanist that can research new spells), equal resources for both. No setting bias, no gods funding one or the other unfairly, transparency in effect (as it normally is).

2.) Assume that arcane magic and psionics have both been around the same amount of time.

3.) I argue that the metagame existence of way more spells on the wizard list is unrealistic. Both wizards and psions have the same motive to invent new stuff, share stuff, and otherwise operate in a similar manner. The existing bias in the books toward wizards is just one of out-of-game practicality, as they were pandering to the largest audience (wizard is core, psionics is optional subsystem with decent pushback among many DMs). All wizard spells were ostensibly invented by some wizard or other (or maybe learned from a dragon or other source), and psions could very well operate by the same principles (if, as above, we assume no setting bias).

4.) My conclusion is that, in any realistic version of a setting where both systems exist, there should be as much variety among psion powers and as many powers as there are wizard spells. That there isn't (and with such huge imbalance) strains verisimilitude in my mind.

So, I would be interested in your thoughts. How much does inequality in list sizes seem problematic to you? Any problem with my analysis?

[Psyren]

So, I would be interested in your thoughts. How much does inequality in list sizes seem problematic to you? Any problem with my analysis?

The primary one that leaps out at me is the fundamental difference between the natures of psionics and magic. Psionics is about self-actualization, so thematically I would expect psionic research to take the form of lots of meditation, reflection, contemplating your navel for days on end etc. It's a more insular process. Magic meanwhile is a more collaborative effort, particularly when you get into the sheer variety of creatures that are accomplished mages (e.g. dragons, fiends, genies, undead etc.) that can be called up on the phone for info, or otherwise partnered with (or even coerced) for research purposes. And once you crack a magical code/make a new spell, you can scribble down the formulae on some paper and pass it on for any wizard to learn. Passing on knowledge of a new power is much more difficult.

We can theorize that, in-universe, the plethora of non-core spells out there were the products of successful research that got disseminated due to reliability, utility etc. Psionic knowledge is harder to pass around like that because it's not just a matter of Keep Circulating The Tapes; effectively, both parties always have to be present for one to truly transfer knowledge to the other.

In addition to all that, powerful psionic creatures tend to be aberrations. Aside from the very real dangers of dealing with them (they tend to top out at amoral in the very best case scenario, and almost all are predatory besides), this also leaves us with their very alien perspectives of the world to contend with; communicating a new mindset from something like, say, an Aboleth to a humanoid psionicist is probably going to be frustrating for both sides.

And finally there's the matter of deities. Gods of magic tend to be much more inclusive - even the evil ones like Shar and Velsharoon usually want their particular brand of mojo to get spread around (possibly due to low pass rate and high turnover in the magical workforce.) Meanwhile, psionic gods - the few that exist - tend to be way more "meh" about spreading psionic lore. The attitude is sort of "if you work hard and apply yourself, you'll get it." Zuoken in particular seems to want his followers to be monks first and psions second, which would understandably turn a bunch of people off.

[Phelix-Mu]

I was trying to leave the gods out of it, or at least assume they aided both causes equally. Tippy's world usually just ignores the influence of the gods on the course of events, from what I recall, assuming basic non-intervention in general.

If, as per the Tippy optimization, there is much psyref and psychiru going around, then psions don't seem as insular. There is no reason for there not to be psion guilds, apprenticeships, and the like, where promising minds are trained in methods for awakening potential, blah blah blah. That is all thoroughly possible, in my mind, and is moreover just setting fluff.

A trade in power stones, psionic texts, sutras with meditative koans or [insert fluff for psionic treatise] are all very possible, in my mind, and are logical results of a world where psions are around and benefit from interacting with each other (psychiru is a big benefit of interacting).

The point about creatures with psionic abilities is good, though. There are many more outsiders with SLAs than PLAs, and the gem dragons are often depicted as being rarer than other dragons (although in a setting with equal prevalence of magic and psionics, this might not be the case). Usually though, the only limits on numbers of a particular type of outsider are conceptual, though. There is no practical limit on how many cerebreliths live in the Abyss, for instance. Psionic couatls, psionic liches, and the like also establish a bit of precedent for "psionic/magic transparency" as far as monsters are concerned; if those ones exist, maybe there are psionic versions of other stuff as well. The only reason there isn't, in my mind, is because the rulebooks were designed to operate without assuming psionics.

As I said, it's a pretty metagame argument that I am making. But, in-setting, if psionics and magic are equal, then I don't see the reason for such great disparity in the sizes of the lists.

[Psyren]

I was trying to leave the gods out of it, or at least assume they aided both causes equally. Tippy's world usually just ignores the influence of the gods on the course of events, from what I recall, assuming basic non-intervention in general.

Agreed, that's why I put them last. But your question does pertain to established settings (since, in a custom setting, we could easily make the variety of psionic powers equal to or exceed that of spells) and that is one in-universe explanation.



If, as per the Tippy optimization, there is much psyref and psychiru going around, then psions don't seem as insular.

I don't think there's a great deal of that going on. For one thing, Reformation and Chirurgery cost a lot more XP than simply scribing a book and passing it around, and XP is a harder-to-obtain commodity than gold. For two, it's a direct one-to-one transfer, whereas something like scribing can be done without the source caster present, and can possibly even be done to multiple magi simultaneously.

Psionic academies do exist, but they serve the function more of teaching students to discover powers themselves, than every instructor pairing up with one student to transfer powers.

Finally, we have what I call the "sorcerer problem" - in-universe, it's unclear exactly how much control a psion has over the powers locked in their subconscious mind. Perhaps wanting Energy Ray badly enough gives it to you, or perhaps you get Disable instead; it's really not clear.



A trade in power stones, psionic texts, sutras with meditative koans or [insert fluff for psionic treatise] are all very possible, in my mind, and are logical results of a world where psions are around and benefit from interacting with each other (psychiru is a big benefit of interacting).

They're not though, not truly. No amount of reading a sutra will teach you a new power if you don't then take the time to select/research it yourself. And even when you research successfully - like a sorcerer, you can't actually commit the power to your mind until you level up, whereas a wizard can add it to the book immediately.



The point about creatures with psionic abilities is good, though. There are many more outsiders with SLAs than PLAs, and the gem dragons are often depicted as being rarer than other dragons (although in a setting with equal prevalence of magic and psionics, this might not be the case). Usually though, the only limits on numbers of a particular type of outsider are conceptual, though. There is no practical limit on how many cerebreliths live in the Abyss, for instance. Psionic couatls, psionic liches, and the like also establish a bit of precedent for "psionic/magic transparency" as far as monsters are concerned; if those ones exist, maybe there are psionic versions of other stuff as well. The only reason there isn't, in my mind, is because the rulebooks were designed to operate without assuming psionics.

As I said, it's a pretty metagame argument that I am making. But, in-setting, if psionics and magic are equal, then I don't see the reason for such great disparity in the sizes of the lists.

Note that "psionic liches" are actually third-party.

Also, I wasn't referring to SLAs/PLAs - I was referring to creatures that actually have class levels (or cast as though they do), or otherwise can duplicate unheard-of spell effects such as by granting wishes. This more open form of casting lends itself well to assisted research.

[Xar Zarath]

If Spell to Power Erudite's never exist (and thus spells can't be turned into powers) then Wizards win.

At least until you start the infinite power Fusion + Astral Seed loop.

Psions win because they can get every arcane and divine spell as a power known along with every psionic power, ignore material components for all of that, have unlimited PP, can manifest it all as purely mental actions, and can (in the absolute worst case. cast any of those spells or powers using just a full round and a standard action).

Without access to the wizard spell list however, Psions don't beat Wizards.

Does the Tippyverse allow the "Researching of New Spells"? If so, then wizards could also copy powers down and just write them as spells, most likely the bulk of them in the Enchantment School

[Phelix-Mu]

Does the Tippyverse allow the "Researching of New Spells"? If so, then wizards could also copy powers down and just write them as spells, most likely the bulk of them in the Enchantment School

This could be done, but only with DM assistance, and so isn't a very meaningful point in most forum discussions. The powers would need significant alteration; although spells can largely become powers by using the formula for spell level slot -> pp cost, there is no obvious way to replicate augmentation using existing spell mechanics of the Vancian system. Some powers would convert fine, while others would be terribly crappy without the options available in the augmentation.

But it's a valid point if we are discussing a setting dynamic. Psions, likewise, could just develop powers to replicate schtick like ice assassin and gate.

[Psyren]

Does the Tippyverse allow the "Researching of New Spells"? If so, then wizards could also copy powers down and just write them as spells, most likely the bulk of them in the Enchantment School

Even if they did that, aside from the augmentation point Phelix mentioned, those spells would still have components (verbal or somatic at a minimum, likely both, and possibly even material) that the powers would lack. And there isn't a good analogue in magic for things like Linked Power or PP recharge.

[Vaz]

The only thing that's lacking in Psionics I can think of is Persistent Power (3.0 needs a bit of work to grandfather in, the XPH overwrote it completely), but in a straight classed Wizard, that's only of minor use, for 3rd level spells or lower. Sure, you have your Wraithstrike, etc, but if that's what you're wasting your time doing a Wizard... you're doing it wrong.

Best way for Persist is obviously Incantatrix, but then the trick is getting a high enough Spellcraft Check to do so, and to ensure you have every spell cast that's persisted requires the whole Ocular spell chain etc, and that also opens the same abuse to Magic Mantle'd Psion (Dark Chaos Shuffle'd Tap+Don Mantle) can qualify for Incantatrix, so it's hardly unique in that regard. Hell, it doesn't even need that, it can qualify through Magical Training+Precocious Apprentice+Sanctum Spell, so Prestige Classes don't help the case there.

However, how can a Wizard counter a Psion who has Immediate Action Teleport Through Time, and can always take that Immediate Action? The Love's Pain trick doesn't work, as the Psion would just Mindrape himself to have no loved one, and to be within reach of such a Psion to cause that damage (and penalize your own intelligence) isn't conducive to the Wizard.

Out of interest; what exactly does a Psion have over a Wilder? Once immunity to daze is in place and you've Dark Chaos Shuffled all powers on, then surely the Wilder is better? In a straight "standard" D&D, the Wilder is less capable than a Psion due to Powers known, but in Tippyverse, you're pretty much sorted for Power's Known. Btw; PM'ing you Tippy.

[Psyren]

Int focus mostly - being smart lets you come up with all these tactics and countermeasures in-character/in-universe. The Wilder also needs a third party at some point in the process to get access to Chirurgery, while a psion/ardent can get it solo.

This is not to say that you can't make an intelligent wilder/ardent, but the Psion is more likely to get the ideas first, and survive long enough to put them into action - after all, he's the one focused on becoming a genius at low levels, with every increment also increasing his general effectiveness along the way directly.

[Gemini476]

However, how can a Wizard counter a Psion who has Immediate Action Teleport Through Time, and can always take that Immediate Action? The Love's Pain trick doesn't work, as the Psion would just Mindrape himself to have no loved one, and to be within reach of such a Psion to cause that damage (and penalize your own intelligence) isn't conducive to the Wizard.

Remember, Love's Pain doesn't care if the one you cast it on is the loved one of the Psion, in this case: it just cares that the Psion is the loved one of the target. So just Mind Rape a commoner into loving the Psion and you're set.
Teleport Through Time and/or Time Hop will both let the Psion avoid the damage, though, since it's only 10d6 damage. (Or 1d6/CL with Reserves of Strength.)

Also, Immediate Action Teleport Through Time requires you to not have used your Immediate Action for the round. (Or did you mean Synchronicity? I'm not entirely sure how you're getting it down to an Immediate Action, really, and the method to do so changes everything.)
Also I guess you could maybe do something like have a Contingent Teleport Through Time that activates when someone within whatever distance Teleports Through Time so that you can follow them? That's a tricky thing to defend against, though.
Actually, Teleport Through Time is a Personal/Touch ranged Transmutation, so that's another thing to put in my future Arcane Swordsage handbook.

It's also a bit difficult to get Teleport Through Time onto a Psion in a non-Epic campaign world, but I'm not sure what the Tippyverse standard on character levels 21+.


Persisting Powers on a Psion is just Metamind 10+Temporal Reiteration. Just use a Swift Action every turn and no power affecting you will ever end.



Psionics still stomps, though. Manifesting is like a better version of spontaneous casting, and even if you just have all of the powers/spells be equal (Psion with all spells as powers but no powers that don't have spell equivalents vs. Spellhoarding dragon with all spells known) then Psionics is just a better casting system.

[Vaz]

I didn't even think you needed Chirurgeory?; just the sheer presence of Spell-to-Power erudites in the setting making powers out of the spells, meaning you can pick it up by Expanded Knowledge.

True about the Intelligence. However, a PAO into a Pit Fiend (26 Int, 37 with items) nets you a similar volume; a Venerable Grey Elf only gets itself 2 higher by ECL20 with Items).

Meanwhile a Necropolitan Wilder can Plane Shift to a Fast Time plane, and -overtime- pick itself up Evolved Undead for higher DC's. Admittedly, it still takes time, but eventually it becomes near untouchable.

Wilder for Touch AC, add on Divine Shield (using Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) to power it (with Unguent of Timelessness, say) and you've got effectively NI Touch AC.

Again, not like that's necessary with Immediate Action Teleport through Time shenanigans, however.

Edit @Gemini;

The trick to Immediate action Teleport through time is thus;

1. Extended Sense Danger Power (MoE); this lets you for 20mins/level (you're a Wilder, say, so 520 mins) take an Immediate Action even during a Surprise Round.
2. Linked Anticipatory Strike; an Immediate Action spell to generate a Standard Action.
3. Synchronicity takes up that standard action, gaining you a Standard Action to use later in the turn (which you use right after your turn has ended, and before anything else).
4. Manifest Anticipatory Strike, which gives you a Move Action to regain your Focus, and then the Synchronicity occurs, giving you a Standard Action.
5. Use said Standard action to manifest a Augmented Synchronicty, giving you a full round action. Continue this cycle until you are within touch range of your opponent.
6. Now use a Touch power to target your opponent, linked to Teleport through time. End turn.
7. Manifest Ancticipatory Strike before any other action. Your turn occurs, target teleports through time and turns into a vegetable with around 100 intelligence damage.

For the 9th level powers, Sanctum Spell treats it as an 8th level spell for all effects.

[Psyren]

The problem with EK is that you can't get Chirurgery with it pre-Epic (on your own anyway) as a non-Telepath... and post-Epic, the line between arcane/divine/psionics breaks down totally, to the point that you could make an epic spell (or power) where you create a version of yourself that already knows every spell and power and transfer your consciousness into it, use an epic divination to beam all the knowledge into your head, or an epic transformation to simply change your brain such that everything is already up there. And of course, post-Epic the wizard can remove all the components from his spells too and effectively become a psion. Heck, you could make yourself a Wilder body to inhabit anyway if that's what you really wanted, or simply give yourself the Wild Surge ability.

[Vaz]

Tap Mantle+Don Mantle (Magic) + Sanctum Spell makes it count as an 8th level power.

[Psyren]

1) Sanctum Spell won't help here because you have to actually learn the spell before you can apply metamagic to it. There is no "Sanctum Psychic Chirurgery" floating out there to be learned via EK.

2) It's pretty clear from the explanatory text that the magic mantle is only meant to enable transparency in games that don't have it, not to create "super-transparency" that transforms psionics into another form of magic and vice-versa. I agree they wrote it badly though - CPsi is a poorly edited book. (See also Linked Power, Metapower, the Erudite...)

[Rubik]

I prefer using a society mind (from Untapped Potential) instead of a psion at higher levels (retraining from psion, once you hit level 7 or so). It's Int-based, retains the same number of power points as a psion, and it actually has quite a few really nice class features, at the expense of powers known, which becomes moot when you factor in Psychic Chirurgery, etc.

You can also use three levels of illithid savant to learn the StP erudite's learning mechanic without bothering with the limiting UPPD.

In fact, my favorite build hits level 7 as a dvati psion (after LA buyoff) with Magic Mantle and Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), purchases some soul crystals of several spell-powers, and proceeds to manifest powers to Call in the highest creature you can, Dominate it, Fusion/Metamorphosis/Astral Seed it (using Inspire Greatness for +2 HD), and then retrain all of those extraneous racial HD into 20 levels of society mind and the rest into [epic] illithid savant. Now that you have a high enough ML, repeat the process with a Dominated, PAO'd devastation beetle. Use Ice Assassin to recreate a second you (as an aleax), retrain all of your levels to classes which have too many cool class features to be optimal with illithid savant, and then Fusion/Astral Seed it. Now you're super-gestalted (since hp, skill points, etc stack) even in a non-gestalt game, have a class level and natural ML of 130, can access epic stuff, can grab every spell and power in the game to manifest spontaneously, using metamind's font of power capstone and Temporal Reiteration for infinite spellcasting potential), and have access to any and all class and racial abilities you could hope to want. Furthermore, since you're dvati, you can Shapechange one body into an ooze with the split ability, so when the Shapechange ends, you now have multiple bodies all inhabited by one soul. Use arcane flowing time Genesis/Astral Projection shenanigans, but leave one of your astral bodies on the plane itself, along with all of your thrallherd believers so you can research epic spells as (essentially) a free action while your other astral bodies go and do whatever you like.

[Vaz]

1) Sanctum Spell won't help here because you have to actually learn the spell before you can apply metamagic to it. There is no "Sanctum Psychic Chirurgery" floating out there to be learned via EK.

2) It's pretty clear from the explanatory text that the magic mantle is only meant to enable transparency in games that don't have it, not to create "super-transparency" that transforms psionics into another form of magic and vice-versa. I agree they wrote it badly though - CPsi is a poorly edited book. (See also Linked Power, Metapower, the Erudite...)

Ah, I see where you're coming from. That's true, though. Even though Epic Spellcasting is disallowed, however, the presence of a Spell-to-power Erudite above 21st level leads to it having Magic Mantle (again, this is defined by whether Tippy's ruling on *stupid* mechanics re Drown Healing) applies to this oversight and Improved Spell Capacity (with Magic Mantle applying that to Psionics), effectively saying you can learn a 10th level power, but that is shaky reasoning, rather than Anchored in RAW).

This is without requiring Epic Spellcasting, however.

Can you get it with a Favoured Discipline Spell to Power Erudite? Of course, there's no "Magic" or "Spell Discipline", so it's more reliant on the DM, of course.


All of this DM dependent ruling I suppose is a no-no, as it's reliant on RAW in Tippyverse.

To get said Erudite, well, Shards of Leadership.

[Sith_Happens]

I think the more interesting question is, which kind of Tippyverse is more likely to actually happen in a given setting? Or would you end up with a hybrid of the two?

[Xar Zarath]

So as a matter of fact the Psionics in question that stomps Arcane is the StP Erudite yes?

Without the Erudite, would Psionics still be able to curbstomp so effectively?

(As an aside, how would a normal unoptimized Psion go against a IotSFV?)

[Erik Vale]

So as a matter of fact the Psionics in question that stomps Arcane is the StP Erudite yes?

Without the Erudite, would Psionics still be able to curbstomp so effectively?

(As an aside, how would a normal unoptimized Psion go against a IotSFV?)

A IotSFV is a optimized wizard, and you wan't to throw a unoptomized psion against him?

The answer is poorly. Because a unoptomized psion is the sort that chooses telepath for flavour, and becomes useless as soon as the other guy gets mindblank.

[Phelix-Mu]

I always thought shatter mind blank should be much more effective and available, both as a spell and a power.

The basic assumption has to be equal op levels. There is no point measuring superior op against inferior op. Because that equation is pretty self-explanatory.

Tippyverse tends to function with all RAW available, by my understanding. Erudite is RAW. Assuming no erudite is already changing the calculus, but once you do, we are back at wizards ruling the roost (they weren't terribly far behind in the first place...cosmic power is such that it doesn't operate as per normal math).

[Psyren]

Without the Erudite, would Psionics still be able to curbstomp so effectively?


Without the Erudite, you can still make a Psion that knows every spell via Fusion. But, that's not really a case of psionics trumping arcane as it is a psion learning how to also be an arcanist.

[Vaz]

I always thought shatter mind blank should be much more effective and available, both as a spell and a power.

The only limit is the low max cap (ML caps at +20) on Shatter Mind Blank. I guess Dark Chaos Shuffle gets you Reserves of Strength and Don Mantle to apply it to Psionics can make it useable however.