On Final Outcomes in the Stickverse

[rbetieh]

Re-reading this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) had me thinking that a particularly Evil and cynical Dwarf might prefer dying of a disease and going with Hel over the Big Fire Below (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html).

Which is interesting, in and of itself, because you have to die "With Honor" to get into the 9 planes, meaning that a CE dwarf that dies at the hand of a Paladin gets the Fire but a CE Dwarf running a Tarquinian scheme until old age is spared. Same amount of evil, leads to varying outcomes, based solely on something that is *mostly* out of a persons control....

I wonder about the rest of the stickverse. It seems that all goblins go to the goblin army, although I can imagine that not all goblins actually wanted that outcome. They seem to have no choice in the matter. Humans and Lizardfolk apparently have only their alignment-setting actions to work under. We have yet to see Kobolds, Elves, and Halflings; but at this point it seems that some races have out clauses to avoid "Negative" outcomes.

Of course, if the Evil outcomes are to be avoided, as Xykon suggests, then why aren't more Dwarves (who appear to be able to get away with it) Evil? You are just one scroll of Contagion away from not going to Evilland, right?

Random musing of the day...

[falsedot]

on the other hand, we don't know whether hanging out with Hel is better than going to hell.

also the dwarf will have to consume alcohol in moderation to avoid livel failure XD
so it's hell versus a life without much beer and afterlife with Hel

[factotum]

Which is interesting, in and of itself, because you have to die "With Honor" to get into the 9 planes, meaning that a CE dwarf that dies at the hand of a Paladin gets the Fire but a CE Dwarf running a Tarquinian scheme until old age is spared.

Don't see the logic there--why should a CE dwarf who dies fighting an enemy (because a Paladin most definitely would be his enemy in that scenario) be treated worse? I'd say the one killed by the Paladin gets far more "honour" (or the evil equivalent) than the Tarquinian schemer.

[rbetieh]

Don't see the logic there--why should a CE dwarf who dies fighting an enemy (because a Paladin most definitely would be his enemy in that scenario) be treated worse? I'd say the one killed by the Paladin gets far more "honour" (or the evil equivalent) than the Tarquinian schemer.

Well you have to be among the honored dead to get the standard 9 planes. The standard planes for Evil alignments are meant to be unpleasant. But if you die of a non-honorable cause (apparently not in battle) you go with Hel to whatever kind of special afterlife that is (which I presume to be non-fiery, as even Good aligned go there, and they don't *deserve* a punishment).

You basically got a reward for seeing your scheme through and not getting brought down by some hero early...

[thereaper]

Re-reading this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) had me thinking that a particularly Evil and cynical Dwarf might prefer dying of a disease and going with Hel over the Big Fire Below (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html).

Which is interesting, in and of itself, because you have to die "With Honor" to get into the 9 planes, meaning that a CE dwarf that dies at the hand of a Paladin gets the Fire but a CE Dwarf running a Tarquinian scheme until old age is spared. Same amount of evil, leads to varying outcomes, based solely on something that is *mostly* out of a persons control....

I wonder about the rest of the stickverse. It seems that all goblins go to the goblin army, although I can imagine that not all goblins actually wanted that outcome. They seem to have no choice in the matter. Humans and Lizardfolk apparently have only their alignment-setting actions to work under. We have yet to see Kobolds, Elves, and Halflings; but at this point it seems that some races have out clauses to avoid "Negative" outcomes.

Of course, if the Evil outcomes are to be avoided, as Xykon suggests, then why aren't more Dwarves (who appear to be able to get away with it) Evil? You are just one scroll of Contagion away from not going to Evilland, right?

Random musing of the day...

What makes you think that Hel treats people any better than regular evil afterlives?

Also, a goblin who doesn't worship The Dark One would not be subject to his afterlife.

[Finagle]

Evil people want the evil afterlife. It's their ideal.

I imagine we'll get to know a lot more about the theology of Hel when Durkon becomes her first priest and returns home to bring death and destruction to all.

[Keltest]

Well you have to be among the honored dead to get the standard 9 planes. The standard planes for Evil alignments are meant to be unpleasant. But if you die of a non-honorable cause (apparently not in battle) you go with Hel to whatever kind of special afterlife that is (which I presume to be non-fiery, as even Good aligned go there, and they don't *deserve* a punishment).

You basically got a reward for seeing your scheme through and not getting brought down by some hero early...

I still don't follow. The success or failure of their task is irrelevant if they get attacked and killed, so long as they put up a fight.

[Kish]

I still don't follow. The success or failure of their task is irrelevant if they get attacked and killed, so long as they put up a fight.
rbetieh is presuming that a dwarf, regardless of alignment, religion, or any non-racial consideration, goes to Hel if s/he dies a "dishonorable" death and to the plane of her/his alignment otherwise, and that going to Hel is preferable to going to a lower plane not to Hel.

[phobiandarkmoon]

Going solely off of the version of Hel in Norse legend, Hel is supposed to house the unworthy dead and generally keeps them in torment, only allowing some of the strongest to do pretty much anything other than feel pain, utter boredom and dreariness, or some combination of both.

So yeah, not a great alternative

[rbetieh]

rbetieh is presuming that a dwarf, regardless of alignment, religion, or any non-racial consideration, goes to Hel if s/he dies a "dishonorable" death and to the plane of her/his alignment otherwise, and that going to Hel is preferable to going to a lower plane not to Hel.


Well, to be fair, I have to assume that a LG Dwarven non-violent monk that happened to die of "Pox" earned a better fate than fire/brimstone, so Hel couldnt possibly be as bad ad LE-land.... I figure Hel has to be a TN-aligned outcome, otherwise some people would get much more or much less than they earned....

Still not preferable to what you were supposed to get but not a punishment either.

[Geordnet]

Well, to be fair, I have to assume that a LG Dwarven non-violent monk that happened to die of "Pox" earned a better fate than fire/brimstone, so Hel couldnt possibly be as bad ad LE-land.... I figure Hel has to be a TN-aligned outcome, otherwise some people would get much more or much less than they earned....
Life Death isn't fair. :smalltongue:

[Keltest]

Well, to be fair, I have to assume that a LG Dwarven non-violent monk that happened to die of "Pox" earned a better fate than fire/brimstone, so Hel couldnt possibly be as bad ad LE-land.... I figure Hel has to be a TN-aligned outcome, otherwise some people would get much more or much less than they earned....

Still not preferable to what you were supposed to get but not a punishment either.

Unlike is most religions, the lower planes aren't (inherently) a terrible place to dead souls. Its the evil version of paradise. A lawful evil afterlife for example might have an extremely structured society where everyone has a rank, but self promotion is the primary motivation. A chaotic evil society is would give whoever has the most power the best spot, until hes dethroned by a tougher guy.

[Sir_Leorik]

Re-reading this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) had me thinking that a particularly Evil and cynical Dwarf might prefer dying of a disease and going with Hel over the Big Fire Below (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html).

Which is interesting, in and of itself, because you have to die "With Honor" to get into the 9 planes, meaning that a CE dwarf that dies at the hand of a Paladin gets the Fire but a CE Dwarf running a Tarquinian scheme until old age is spared. Same amount of evil, leads to varying outcomes, based solely on something that is *mostly* out of a persons control....

I wonder about the rest of the stickverse. It seems that all goblins go to the goblin army, although I can imagine that not all goblins actually wanted that outcome. They seem to have no choice in the matter. Humans and Lizardfolk apparently have only their alignment-setting actions to work under. We have yet to see Kobolds, Elves, and Halflings; but at this point it seems that some races have out clauses to avoid "Negative" outcomes.

Of course, if the Evil outcomes are to be avoided, as Xykon suggests, then why aren't more Dwarves (who appear to be able to get away with it) Evil? You are just one scroll of Contagion away from not going to Evilland, right?


The Dwarves are the only ones with this system, because they're the only worshipers of the Northern gods who have a system of honor, including the idea of "straw death" (i.e. dying of illness or old age). Other worshipers of the Northern gods just need to pass the standard Planescape style Alignment test to become Petitioners; the Dwarves also need to die in honorable combat. They probably also need to not have dishonored their ancestors by committing adultery or avoiding an arranged marriage. If they can swing all that, they go to the Plane matching their Alignment.

Lawful Evil Dwarves might be able to die with honor, but becoming a petitioner in the Nine Hells is a really bad turn of events, almost as bad as entering Nifelheim and becoming a Petitioner in Hela's realm. I don't think Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil Dwarves care enough about honor to die honorable deaths, and they might be able to get Loki to invite them to his realm in Pandemonium, so long as they don't mind the noise.

The Dark One has his one realm, most likely in Acheron or the Nine Hells. He makes sure that all Goblins who worship him become Petitioners in his realm. (We saw a scene of this process from Jirix's POV.) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) So long as a Goblin worshiped the Dark One in good faith, the Dark One keeps them out of the hands of Devils, Demons, Yugoloths, Night Hags, or anyone else in the Larvae trade.

Speaking of which...


Evil people want the evil afterlife. It's their ideal.

No, no it isn't. Unless you worshiped an Evil god in life and become a Petitioner in their realm, the Evil afterlives suck. They are heavily based on the "Inferno" portion of Dante's Divine Comedy, with the Nine Hells of Baator being the most obvious example. In the Nine Hells, Devils gather up Larvae to torture into low ranking Devils called Lemures, or they torment broken souls who are barely corporeal. In Gehenna, mobile Yugoloth castles march up active volcanoes hunting for Petitioners, while in the Grey Waste (where Hela calls her kip) Petitioners slowly fade away until they no longer remember their lives, having been bleached of all color and vibrancy. Carceri (aka Tarterus) is a Russian nesting doll of spheres, each one worse than the other, and each harder to escape from. At the center of Carceri is the prison housing the Titans and various other Abominations the Eastern Pantheon forgot about before the Snarl wiped them out. Then there's the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, only 666 of which have been mapped out by planar cartographers (usually because no planar cartographer has survived travelling beyond the 666th layer and returned to tell the tale). Each layer of the Abyss contains it's own horrors, ranging from acid snow to volcanic grass, from Lolth's Demonweb Pits to Graz'zt's triple layer realm of Azzagrat. Fun stuff. That's what Xykon was talking about: no Evildoer wants to pay for their crimes, and in a sense that's part of what happens in the Lower Planes: Evil Petitioners get picked on by bigger bullies as a penance for their Alignment in life.

The Lower Planes are only ideal to one group of creatures: the Fiends. They may not realize it, but they couldn't be happy anywhere else. If they ever conquered the Upper Planes they'd just end up turning the place into a copy of the Lower Planes... causing the Upper Planes to slide down the Great Wheel and be replaced by a new set of Upper Planes, inhabited by a new group of Celestials.

[Mith]

From my quick google-fu, Hel isn't just for tormenting people, although there may have been some of that going on. Other parts of Hel were akin to the Fields of Asphodel in Greek Myths. It wasn't Hell or Heaven, just eternal, boring, limbo.

Basically Hel of Norse Myths (although the sources are not the most reliable) was the non Paradise portions of hades all rolled up under one name.

[Seward]

Evil people want the evil afterlife. It's their ideal.


Xycon doesn't agree.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

second from last panel

[rbetieh]

Unlike is most religions, the lower planes aren't (inherently) a terrible place to dead souls. Its the evil version of paradise.

I do not think this can be as you believe it, and will attempt to show you why.

Let us take the tact that you mean by these words that an Evil person would consider this plane paradise (we purposely will ignore what non-evils might think of it). If so, then Xykon would not wish to avoid it, right? Further, Belkar gives his musings on what a CG afterlife might look like and he seems to depict a situation that he himself would enjoy. Take the two musings together and the 2 CE characters we interact with the most say "CG - good afterlife, CE - Bad afterlife".

Let us take the tact that all afterlives are equal outcomes (and everyone in the world sees it that way), then we now have to reconcile the fact that Evil outsiders attempt to lead people into doing things that will result in those people falling into their 3 outcomes. If they are all equal, then why convince you to go to one over another? People will just do what they want, and each afterlife will get its even distribution of the alignment chart. What good does it do devils to add more souls to their plane? Note that no outsider offered the already evil Kubota any help with his schemes, but tempting the Neutral Varsuvius was seen as an added perk to the IFCCs plans.


Also, a goblin who doesn't worship The Dark One would not be subject to his afterlife.

And this is why Evil Goblinoids worship the Dark One (get out of jail free pass, no fire, no torture, just army duty). I can *almost not* imagine a Good Goblinoid worshiping the Dark One, maybe the stray Neutral, but not a Good. (ok, I can imagine one doing so, if so that he can stay with his friends/family after death; but how do you serve in that army and maintain your good conscience?)

Interestingly enough, what we come to is that all Evil Goblins have incentive to worship the Dark One, but no Dark One worshipers have incentive to be Good....

[factotum]

Note that no outsider offered the already evil Kubota any help with his schemes

Er, Qarr? You might remember him, short red dude with wings? :smallconfused:

[rbetieh]

Er, Qarr? You might remember him, short red dude with wings? :smallconfused:

Yes, the small guy that sent a bunch of letters off requesting help and never got a response...

[factotum]

Yes, the small guy that sent a bunch of letters off requesting help and never got a response...

Maybe not, but *somebody* must have sent him to Kubota in the first place. Not to mention that Qarr himself is an outsider and was definitely present and assisting with Kubota's plans.

[Kish]

And Kubota didn't get any further help because the higher-up fiends knew he wasn't going anywhere--the rejection letter said as much.

The assumption that Vaarsuvius got more attention from the fiends because s/he was neutral, rather than because s/he could demonstrably blow Kubota away with barely a thought, is somewhere between "huh, why do you believe that?" and outright contradicted by the comic. "Do you know how few wizards even make it to tenth level?"

[Keltest]

Maybe not, but *somebody* must have sent him to Kubota in the first place. Not to mention that Qarr himself is an outsider and was definitely present and assisting with Kubota's plans.

It was implied that he was unemployed at the time. He may very well have deiced to go there himself and make mischief.

[Sir_Leorik]

Er, Qarr? You might remember him, short red dude with wings? :smallconfused:


Yes, the small guy that sent a bunch of letters off requesting help and never got a response...


Maybe not, but *somebody* must have sent him to Kubota in the first place. Not to mention that Qarr himself is an outsider and was definitely present and assisting with Kubota's plans.


It was implied that he was unemployed at the time. He may very well have deiced to go there himself and make mischief.

Technically, Qarr was supposed to be looking for a minor artifact for his supervisor. Imps and Quasits are practically the bottom of the totem pole in the fiendish hierarchy. The only creatures lower are Lemures, Nuperribo, Dretches, and last, and most certainly least, Mephits. (The funny thing is that Mephits are sapient beings, while Dretches and Nuperribo are barely sentient; but because they're so annoying, Mephits are seen as a waste of resources. Mephits are used as a form of message system in the Lower Planes. One fiend sends a type of Mephit to an ally or rival; the type of Mephit determines the message. You only send a Salt or Ooze Mephit to an enemy or someone you want to make into an enemy. :smalltongue:)

Long story, short, Qarr was working on an assignment that involved Lord Kubota. He was probably summoned by one of Kubota's spellcaster, and they forged some sort of pact. Part of the pact was for Qarr to request power for Kubota (maybe a Warlock Pact?), but the application kept getting rejected. I'm sure those multiple rejections didn't already make Kubota a little cross with the Imp at a time that Qarr was trying to shift blame to Therkla. But Qarr wasn't unemployed; he was fulfilling the terms of the pact to serve Kubota. When V turned Kubota to ash, Qarr was freed from that pact, and rather than return to the Nine Hells, he decided to try forging a pact with Vaarsuvius. That led to his current job working as a gofer for the IFCC Directors.

[Sir_Leorik]

Let us take the tact that you mean by these words that an Evil person would consider this plane paradise (we purposely will ignore what non-evils might think of it). If so, then Xykon would not wish to avoid it, right? Further, Belkar gives his musings on what a CG afterlife might look like and he seems to depict a situation that he himself would enjoy. Take the two musings together and the 2 CE characters we interact with the most say "CG - good afterlife, CE - Bad afterlife".

Let us take the tact that all afterlives are equal outcomes (and everyone in the world sees it that way), then we now have to reconcile the fact that Evil outsiders attempt to lead people into doing things that will result in those people falling into their 3 outcomes. If they are all equal, then why convince you to go to one over another? People will just do what they want, and each afterlife will get its even distribution of the alignment chart. What good does it do devils to add more souls to their plane?

It's a bit more complicated than that, because the Great Wheel Cosmology (which "Order of the Stick" uses with the serial numbers filed off) is composed of more than nine planes. There are planes that overlap different Alignments. Bytopia overlaps Lawful Good and Neutral Good, The Beastlands overlap Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, Asgard overlaps Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral, Pandemonium overlaps Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil, Carceri overlaps Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, Gehenna overlaps Neutral Evil and Lawful Evil, Acheron overlaps Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral, and Arcadia overlaps Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good. This leaves Mt. Celestia, Elysium, Arborea, Limbo, The Infinite Layers of the Abyss, The Grey Waste, the Nine Hells and Mechanus as representing a single Alignment each.

What this means is that a Petitioner who is Lawful Good, but who is more Lawful than Good might end up in Arcadia; another Lawful Good Petitioner who sometimes uses Neutral methods to pursue Good goals might end up in Bytopia. Likewise, a Lawful Evil soldier who obeys orders and therefore fights brutally, would be more likely to end up as a Petitioner in Acheron where he would be recruited to fight endless battles, until he acheives perfection in ruthless battle, or is destroyed. But a Lawful Evil soldier who enjoys committing atrocities for their own sake is more likely to end up as a Larvae in Baator, where he could be tortured for centuries to transform into a Lemure or Nuperribo Devil. I really don't think that centuries of torment is anyone's ideal afterlife. By contrast, the idea of getting to fight eternal battles is so appealing to some cultures, that it's the main attraction in Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral Asgard.


Note that no outsider offered the already evil Kubota any help with his schemes, but tempting the Neutral Varsuvius was seen as an added perk to the IFCCs plans.

It's already been mentioned, but the reason the IFCC wanted to make a deal with Vaarsuvius had to do with their plans for the Gates and the Snarl. Getting V and Blackwing's souls are a bonus prize to destroying the Forces of Good once and for all.


And this is why Evil Goblinoids worship the Dark One (get out of jail free pass, no fire, no torture, just army duty). I can *almost not* imagine a Good Goblinoid worshiping the Dark One, maybe the stray Neutral, but not a Good. (ok, I can imagine one doing so, if so that he can stay with his friends/family after death; but how do you serve in that army and maintain your good conscience?)

Interestingly enough, what we come to is that all Evil Goblins have incentive to worship the Dark One, but no Dark One worshipers have incentive to be Good....

Pretty much. The Dark One's ethos seems to have been heavily shaped by the circumstances of how he became a god in the first place. (See SoD for details!) Redcloak might try to justify some of the things that the Dark One's Plan entails, but he's crossed a moral line a long time ago. I sympathize with Redcloak's tragic life, but that doesn't keep me from acknowledging that he is one of the villains of this story.

As for the afterlife Jirix described, it's pretty consistent with one of the floating cubes that make up Acheron in D&D's Great Wheel Cosmology. These cubes are huge, measuring hundreds or even thousands of miles on a side (or more!) and entire armies battle for control of a side, trying to gain resources so they can launch futile attempts to sieze other sides of a cube or launch assaults on different cubes. The only aspect missing from Jirix's sermon were the Mercane dropping by to sell magic weapons, armor and Spelljamming ships and Helms. (How else do you expect the Dark One's forces to attack another cube? :smallwink:)

[rbetieh]

I never thought that The Giant was going to use this "Hel Hack" as an actual plot point.